We've been doing practice period here at Green Gulch since late October. I think we started on the 23rd of October, four weeks I think, and we have a couple more weeks to go, and we're getting into it. And it's been a while since I've participated in practice period, and it's quite wonderful. I'm having lots of fun. And so maybe someday all of you will come, not all at once, but in small groups to do a practice period at Green Gulch. You know, isn't it a great thing just to kind of throw your life away totally and just come

[01:04]

here for seven weeks, and just don't have to be anybody, but just a Zen student. Every day doing Zazen, washing a few dishes, working on the farm or in the garden. It's a nice thing to do, so clear your calendars, come sometime. The thing that's so nice about practice period is that there's a kind of timeless feeling to it, I think. I think that repetition, you know, is the soul of spiritual practice. So there's lots of repetition in the practice period every day.

[02:07]

We get up and we do the same things over and over again, very simple activities we do together every day. And after one or two or three weeks of this, pretty soon you don't know the difference between now and then, today and yesterday, me and you, everything just has this timeless quality to it. And every moment seems like a moment in which everything is happening, a moment that has always been lived, a strangely deep moment. And then it begins to feel as if the things that we're doing every day, the bowing and

[03:12]

the chanting and the simple work, are things that have been done by generations and generations of people all over the world. And you feel that they're present too, you know, the Chinese and Japanese ancestors and Buddha himself in the early Sangha. You get that feeling that we're no longer just ourself, but also we join with those many generations, and one can feel them, I think, in the meditation hall. It's almost as if our contemporary self, our contemporary problems, somehow dissolve. And there's nothing left but the powerful feeling we have as human beings against this

[04:20]

timeless background of emptiness. Or as I was talking about this last week in the talk for the practice period students, this timeless background of darkness. And what appears against this background of darkness always appears to be beautiful. In fact, our usual categories, our usual way of thinking about things, good and bad, ugly and beautiful, desirable, undesirable, these very categories also dissolve and things just appear, miraculously almost, against this background. So it's, you know, I'm leading the practice period, so this is a special kind of joy.

[05:34]

And one gets to see all of these practice period students against this background. There's a story that they tell about Suzuki Roshi from many years ago, maybe in the 60s when he was getting all these individualistic hippy types to dress in dark clothes and stand the same way and walk the same way and bow the same way in the zendo, that they would complain to him and they would say, how come we have to do everything the same way? We can't express ourselves. And the story goes that he said, well, it's only when you do things the same way that I can really see your individuality and it really shines through. And this seems very, very true to me. So, I get to come to the meditation hall every morning about five, or a little before

[06:52]

five and march around, Eve and I, we stroll around with sticks of incense and we offer a stick of incense to Suzuki Roshi and we offer a stick of incense in the kitchen. Then we come over here and offer incense and then we march around the zendo saying good morning to everyone. And then I sort of waltz out and go to my little hut and have practice interviews. And people are coming and going and it's such a wonderful thing to see these people so true and so deep and so dignified in their experience of practice. And I can do this for many hours and I don't get tired because it's so wonderful to see

[07:58]

this. And over the years here at Green Gulch, hundreds and hundreds of people coming and experiencing So last weekend, I took the weekend off and went to British Columbia where I've been going for a number of years to sit with people. And I went to get on the airport bus and I met a woman who was also getting on the same bus who used to be a Green Gulch resident. She had lived here for a year or two and moved away some years ago and I hadn't seen her. So it was really great to see her. And we were talking all the way to the airport.

[08:58]

She was filling me in on all that had happened to her and what she had been doing in her life. So I was absorbed in talking with her and forgot to figure out where to get off. So, the first stop was Air Canada, that's the first, Air Canada. So I went to Air Canada and I jumped off with my little, I have a little tiny, I got the whole thing down to a little attache case which has all my robes in it and everything. So I went to Air Canada to find out where is the flight to Vancouver. And, you know, you look on those monitors that they have at the airport, well the monitors were all broken, so you couldn't tell. And I was also rather late, there was about 20 minutes until the plane.

[10:01]

So I couldn't tell which gate, so I asked one of the airport workers, you know, I'm going to Canada, you know, where's the flight? She said, oh it's gate so-and-so. Well, fortunately I've been exercising more than usual, so I could run, you know, with my little attache case full speed to the gate. And I got there about maybe 12 minutes before the plane was scheduled to take off to the gate that she directed me to and it said Toronto. Toronto. So I turned around at full speed, you know, back to the Canadian Air desk and I said, where's the flight to Vancouver? And they said, Canadian Air is not going to Vancouver. No, it was Air Canada. Air Canada is not going to Vancouver, Canadian Air is going to Vancouver.

[11:05]

Why did they have to name them, you know, Air Canada, Canadian Air? It's really easy to get mixed up. And usually, you know, I'm wise to this and I, you know, think of the difference, but this time, because I was talking to my friend, I forgot to think about that and there I was with 12 minutes or so before the flight was about to take off at the Air Canada terminal. Now you'd think that Canadian Air would be right next to Air Canada. But it's not. It's pretty far away. So this was a chance for me to see, you know, just how much I had exercised. And it went pretty well, you know, with my little attaché case. I zoomed right through. I didn't knock anybody over and zoomed all the way directly to the place where the plane was taking off and I was there five minutes before.

[12:06]

I'm usually, you know, get there real early, you know, read a book or something. So this is very unusual for me. Five minutes before the plane was to take off and the guy said, I know this guy well because every time I fly to Vancouver, he's there, you know. I don't know if he knows me, but I know him. And he said, sorry. He said with some pride, we fly on time. And he had locked the door, you know, that goes into the tube. So, and this was bad because I was giving a talk in the afternoon at the University of British Columbia before the retreat. So, but I figured, you know, he'll let me on. So I just went right up to the door and I said, look, you know, I have my little thing here and here's my ticket and why don't you see if I can get on. He said, no problem, I can get on, surely.

[13:07]

So the nice lady said, well, I'll go ask the pilot. And she sort of opened the door and went down and came back and said, okay. And I said, I'll run all the way down the tube. And I did, I ran all the way down. And I made it about one minute before the flight took off. And it was really hot in that airplane because I was wearing a heavy shirt, you know. And I really worked up a sweat with all that running. Anyway, this has very little to do with what I'm talking about today. But the part that does have to do with it is what this woman was talking to me about. Because that's what gave me the idea for my lecture today. Now, I should tell you that this woman is a very attractive, intelligent, very warm-hearted person.

[14:13]

She was a real bright light when she was here at Green Gulch. So it was really a delight to talk to her. And it was also a little sad to hear what she had been doing and how her life had been going. Not that there was any big tragedy in it or anything, but it was just a little sad. She said that she's ready to find someone really nice and get married and settle down. And she's been having boyfriends and so on, but it's not working out. And I happened to, through a mutual friend, knew about her current, or what I thought was her current relationship. And I said, well, how's that going? And she said, I got rid of that guy. I said, how come? She said, well, he was very nice and everything, but he just couldn't make a commitment. And I just figured, what am I doing?

[15:15]

So I just gave up on it. So that was kind of sad to hear her saying that. Then, she wasn't doing all that she would like to do in her work either. What she wanted to do, and was apparently very good at, was she wanted to take care of old people. And this is, of course, a tremendous need in our society. And she was actually working at that. And she had gone to school and gotten some sort of certificate that enabled her to do this. But the pay was really low. Even though she was very good at it and knew exactly how to do it, the pay was low and it wouldn't get higher unless she got extra credentials and certificates and degrees and so on. So she had to go back to school and pay all the tuition and put all the time in, so that she could learn how to do what she already knew how to do,

[16:16]

and be able to make a living wage at it. So this was all, like I say, she was not at all upset about this. I mean, these were setbacks, but she wasn't in despair or anything. She seemed on the whole pretty cheerful. But it made me sad to think of the kinds of problems that she and many of us have with our efforts to establish lasting and meaningful relationships and our efforts to find some real work in our lives. And I think that these are problems that many of us have. So sometimes, you know, I think about how it used to be and so on.

[17:20]

And, you know, it's easy to romanticize about the past and complain about the present. And one doesn't really know whether it's better or worse. But it does seem that nowadays it's very difficult to establish a good intimate relationship, a satisfying intimate relationship. And I think it is difficult nowadays to find true work that will support us. And sometimes I feel as if so many of us are frustrated with these things in a major way. Frustrated and also particularly frustrated because we have an expectation, I think. After all, we're Americans, right?

[18:22]

So naturally, everything is supposed to work out. So it's especially frustrating when it doesn't work out. So I think that this is one reason why we have such, what's the word, confusing, disturbing, unsatisfactory politics at the moment. Because I think so many people are frustrated in this way and they really don't even know how to name their frustration or who to blame it on, you know. So they're looking around for somebody to blame it on and some simple solution that's going to fix it for them. To me, it seems clear that the practice of relationship and the practice of work

[19:34]

is fundamentally what our Zen practice is about. To be able to really love ourself and others. To really accept ourselves and others as we actually are. And to really learn how to be kind to ourself and others. And then out of that feeling of self-love and self-acceptance and acceptance of others and love for others, to be able to do something that would be beneficial, be of some benefit to make of our activity an offering, an expression of our feeling. It seems to me that this is fundamentally what our practice is about. Now why it should be necessary for us to sit down like a pretzel,

[20:46]

with our back up straight and so forth, and wear these Tang Dynasty Chinese robes and chant in Sino-Japanese and so forth, I really don't know why that's necessary for us to do all that. But it seems to me, after many years of doing these things, that it's necessary, it is necessary to do this or something very much like this. In order to be able to simply live and to love truly and to work honestly. Maybe somebody else knows why we have to do all this, but I only know that we have to do it. Maybe it's the most natural thing in the world for us to love and to work easily. But if so, it seems like it's also natural for us to have to make a tremendous effort somehow

[21:55]

to do these things and to do them in accord with our deepest heart. Now it's very surprising how often in my little interview room I talk to people about love and intimate relationships. You would think it would all be like shouting and koans and everything, but no. An occasional shout, yes. But mostly it's quite surprising how often the topic comes up, you know. And at one time my wife said, you know, she said, if you really were to ask people in all seriousness to make a choice, what would they like to have if they could have either one of these, a good long-term relationship or enlightenment?

[23:00]

That most people would think about it for a little while and after a while they would say, a good long-term relationship. And that if they chose enlightenment, it would be probably because they figured it would increase their chances of having a good long-term relationship. Or maybe that they figured that something would happen that somehow after they were enlightened magically they wouldn't any longer care about a long-term relationship, so it would amount to the same thing. So that's, she's probably right about that, don't you think? Good chance that she's right, at least more than 50% of the time people would choose that. Because it's such an issue, right, it's so hard to establish such a thing nowadays. Like my friend on the airport bus, you can search around high and low and advertise even. And of course they do advertise, right? Sophisticated copywriters are hired to advertise

[24:14]

and it can be frustrating. I have another friend in New York City, I just saw him lately, a boyhood friend. I think he's 50. And he said, well, I guess I'm not getting married. He's been looking all this time and having a series of disastrous experiences one after the other, which are interesting but probably not fun when you're in them. Because so many people have been scarred, you know? In their relationships, seriously wounded and hurt. That was the case with this woman's last boyfriend, you know, the one that she let go of. He had been married and had been through a tremendously painful divorce

[25:15]

and he wasn't ready to, he was scared, you know, to do something like this again and let himself in for such a tremendous amount of hurt. So many of us have been scarred either in these intimate relationships or in our family relationships and we're frightened and unable really to love ourself or each other. Find it impossible to make a commitment, don't even know what it would mean, feel like, to make a serious commitment. So we have a great amount of fear and loneliness in our world and it seems just so risky to actually be open to another person, open to love and therefore open to hurt, easier to just back off, be safe. So I think our practice, you know, is really helping us with this.

[26:24]

It's really about helping us with this difficulty. As I've been mentioning over and over again to the people in the practice period, the way in Zen is so simple. We just keep returning over and over again in our sitting practice to our breathing and our posture, over and over again to the vivid reality of this present moment, over and over again making that effort to come back to the present moment and shed our past and our future and our self clinging and to just be alive to what is actually coming up in the present right now. Whether it's good or bad, whether we like it or don't like it, pleasant or unpleasant, just return. Whether it's in the meditation hall or whether it's

[27:25]

while we're washing dishes or doing our simple work, training ourselves to come back over and over again. And this process of doing this softens us. It's like a salve on our scars and our hurts. And we find that it becomes possible for us to little by little let go of our defenses. And the practice makes us more stable and more steady and calmer. And then little by little it can actually be possible to listen to another person. A miracle. Actually listen to another person. And then out of that deep listening it actually becomes possible

[28:27]

to let go of ourself long enough to look at that person, hear them and really respect them. And then out of our listening and respecting another person we create a force for healing for ourself and the other person. And we can actually help another person to become trusting and trustworthy. To become capable of giving and receiving love. This is really, I think, in a way the deepest aspect of our Zen practice. Even though the ancients didn't talk about it so much in actual experience we find it's true. Now you know our ideas about

[29:31]

intimate relationships probably came from the troubadours, the songs of the troubadours a long time ago. The tragedy and pain of love. The troubadours who convinced us once and for all that in order to have love in our lives we have to seek it from the unobtainable other. And so most of us are pretty convinced that in order for there to be love in our lives it has to come through the agency of another person. So we search high and low. Someone else stepping into our life suddenly through a gauzy screen a gauzy blowing curtain suddenly they step into our lives and love is awakened. So I mean it's certainly true that we need other people to love us and we need to love other people. And maybe it's a very true feeling that we have

[30:37]

that we're longing for a lifetime mate and maybe our whole life we're looking for that mate. And maybe we live and die and we never find that mate. And that's definitely sad. But did you ever know of anyone who lived and died and didn't have sadness in their life? So whether or not we find this perfect or imperfect lifetime relationship our own ability to give love and receive love does not depend on another person. It has nothing to do with another person. It's something that we develop as a consequence of our own sincere effort in the practice.

[31:39]

It doesn't matter whether someone shows up or not. And I would say there are two aspects to developing this loving heart. One is, as I've said before, this process of returning. Awareness and returning. Aware of what arises in the present moment without any denial, just seeing what is actually there and then gently letting go of it and returning to the present moment. This double process over and over again is one of the main ways that we soften ourselves up and can have finally some real love for ourself and some real forgiveness for ourself and then very naturally we'll feel that way about others. And it's, I think, absolutely necessary for us

[32:44]

as individuals and as a society that we have this healthy acceptance of ourself and of others. So that's the first way that we develop a loving heart. But the second way is going outside of ourself toward other people. And Dogen, and one of my favorite parts of Dogen. I have many unfavorite parts of Dogen too. This is one of my favorite parts where he talks about the four methods of guidance of the Bodhisattva, which is a long story and I'm not going to... I've talked about this before and sometime again I will but just shorthand for today he talks about the four methods of guidance of the Bodhisattvas and the four are giving, first one is giving, second one is kind speech,

[33:47]

third one he calls beneficial action and the fourth one is identity action. So just to summarize what he says here that we make it our practice to go out toward other people with loving acts of body, speech and mind. We help people whenever we see a chance to help them in little ways and big ways. You know, we ask how they are and we practice really meaning it. We find ways to practice kind speech with other people and really put our intentions and our real feelings behind that speech and we try in a million ways to identify with other people, to put ourselves in their shoes and really feel their feeling. This is a practice. This is not something that we either feel or don't feel. We work at this.

[34:52]

And we do all these practices really for others but also for ourselves. And it doesn't really matter how people will respond to these acts of kindness. Many times, most times, they will be grateful and will make friends. But whether they are or not it doesn't really matter. We in doing what we're doing will become kinder and happier people and even though we may not be able to force the universe to yield to us the perfect mate we can definitely live in a world that has friends in it. A world that we feel, can feel love and feel sharing and caring and receive that both ways. And while I hesitate to say this

[35:58]

it's probably true that this may help the universe to cooperate a little bit and maybe someone will appear and it may be perfectly fine to hope for this although I think it would be counterproductive to expect it. It would make us quite miserable probably to expect it or anticipate it. But hoping is nice, you know. It seems like finding and sustaining some meaningful work in the present circumstances in our society is not too easy. Is that right? No? It seems to me

[36:59]

being a person who hasn't worked for years I wouldn't really know but this is what I hear. And I think the reason why is because more and more my observation is that the natural human forces of greed aversion and confusion are more and more in charge of the economic machine that chugs along and in my opinion does not need a tune-up. It needs an overhaul, a major overhaul and nobody is even talking about this. It's sort of politically untenable to mention that it needs an overhaul. So it's hard, I think to find some kind of meaningful work

[38:04]

when this is the dominant force in our society controlling the work world. So in a situation like this I think there really isn't anything for us to do but to turn toward our practice for the values and attitudes that will sustain us through tough times and make a situation that is difficult maybe a little better. And people say this all the time but I think it's really true that why wouldn't something that people say all the time be true, right? Sure. As they say all the time and it's true. Difficulties in our practice are opportunities. We have to look at it that way. A difficulty is something that we work with that we face and work with every day.

[39:06]

And this work that we do with our difficulties may or may not be pleasant. It may be quite unpleasant. But as we work with it day by day by day now I don't know if you will understand what I mean but oddly enough you see that what's pleasant is also unpleasant. And what's unpleasant is also pleasant. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? It's not just words. When you feel that then it doesn't matter all that much, you see how it is to work with our difficulties. We just keep going. And after a while we even stop complaining about it. And we just roll up our sleeves

[40:09]

and get to it because it's obvious that there's nothing else that can be done. And we come to understand that work is a form of giving. Dogen's practice of giving is the practice of work. It's a way for us to express our gratitude for this life that we have and it's a way for us to share our life with others. And that's why work is so important. That's why anybody needs to work. One of our Zen ancestors said a day of no work is a day of no eating. And when he was too old to work he stopped eating. So real work is a necessity every day and it's a joy for our lives. It's not a chore. And anything that we do, almost anything anyway

[41:14]

can be real work. Cleaning and cooking and making a good space for people to live in are wonderful forms of work. And then we human beings need all kinds of things. We need toilet paper and tennis balls and tangerines and the vehicles to carry them around in and the stores to sell them in. And we need health care and we need childcare and we need counseling. And all of this stuff is real work if we do it with the spirit of kindness and intelligence and without losing sight of our real purpose. So as long as there are people

[42:14]

it's really easy to find true work and meaningful work. But the difficult part is when we get confused by the society's definition of work and what the society wants to make of work and we lose our sense of values and purpose. As human beings I think we really can't afford to be pushed around by things like the current fashion in work because our jobs and so on are coming in and out of fashion, right? So we can't really afford to be pushed around by society's fashions, by notions of career, by large and small quantities of money, by prestige, by social status or by, in general, the expectations of our society. The cost is too great for us to

[43:15]

be motivated by these things. These things, of course, are real too and can't be ignored. In doing what we do we have to take these things into consideration. But we have to go back to our cushions again and again and again and again to remind ourselves of what is most fundamentally important because we forget so easily and the pressures for us to forget are so great. And I am personally convinced that if we continue with our practice, if we are content to live simply, not require a whole lot, and to live with others and for others and if we aren't afraid to make effort in our lives,

[44:17]

then we will definitely find a way to find meaningful work that will support us, though it may be difficult sometimes, we will find a way, I'm convinced. And I'm also convinced that the more of us who are willing to take this attitude, which may seem risky in a way, and are willing to use our talents and energies to the fullest, the sooner will our society change and the sooner will work be meaningful and true for more of us. I think there's no need for us to feel like we're victims of our society. Actually, each one of us has a lot of power and a lot of freedom within ourselves if only we will be open to it. We may feel that we are victims

[45:22]

of our circumstances, but we are not really victims of our circumstances. Our real life is a collaboration between our own effort now and our circumstances. So if we support each other, and I think that this mutual support is really important, if we support each other and we take the courageous path, our lives can be beautiful and intimate regardless of... So...

[46:29]

And also to say that what you raised in the discussion today doesn't necessarily have to be related directly to the talk. If there's something else on your mind, it's just an open discussion and you're welcome to bring up whatever's on your mind. So with that, let's begin our discussion. Who would like to start us off? Yeah. I wanted to find out a little bit more about your notion of what constitutes real work. There's a monk who said that if he didn't work that day, he wouldn't starve. If he had to go to a corporate office during a full day's work, would he still have to starve if that didn't constitute real work? Well, in his case,

[47:30]

he would work in the fields with the other monks. So that's what he meant by real work. And of course, a lot of the things that we do nowadays would have mystified him. He would wonder what it is that we're doing. So I don't know what he would say. But... I guess what I was saying was that any work that we do that comes out of this intention or feeling to give back in our lives and do something that's of benefit to others, if that's our fundamental motivation and that's the activity that we're doing, then there's no limit to what can be considered real work. It's not like working on a farm is real work, but working in a corporate boardroom is not really real work. But if working in a corporate boardroom is an unexamined

[48:32]

blind for greed and personal gain, then I would question that as a form of work, personally. But, you know, when it comes to these issues of morality, they become very complicated. And can any of us say that we're doing something that's pure and is not harming others and is helping others and somebody else, what you're doing is not pure and is harming others? So unfortunately, nowadays the world is complicated and it's hard to make these judgments and discriminations. And yet we have to all do it. We have to do our best. And nobody is the boss. I know what's right and you don't know what's right. I mean, there's nobody like that. So we all have to do our best and hopefully we all have some way of working on our heart and our understanding so that these discriminations and judgments that we're making are not totally uninformed. Because, goodness knows,

[49:38]

self-deception is the easiest thing in the world. It comes very natural. So do you have a way of making sure or have something to refer to so that you are checking out the degree to which your judgments are self-deceptive? I would say that that's important. But after that, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't condemn anybody for what they do. If I was in dialogue with an individual who, for example, was saying, well, what I do for a living is I manufacture parts for helicopters that shoot people dead like my father-in-law does. I would want to speak with them and question, you know, what are they doing and how do they feel about it. Certain things seem less beneficial than others, at least on the surface, don't they? But you know that there are people who are manufacturing parts for helicopters that shoot people dead who feel as if they're protecting the world from harm.

[50:40]

So, we have to talk. Yes? I'm not sure how this relates, but Apollo's opened fire in San Francisco with a bunch of weapons and all the news coming out lately has been to beef up the police force and get this done. How do you relate with that and what can we do? Well, I mean, there's two aspects of that. One is what can we do in the short run and what can we do in the long run. And in the long run I feel like what we have to do is become more compassionate and more real as a society and deal with our frustrations and deal with our problems in a real way so that

[51:44]

these people are just, to me, when I hear about something like that, it's like a pressure point, just release pressure, you know what I mean? So it's not just that one person that we're talking about. That one person stands for the frustration of many, many, many, many people and we have to address our societal frustration and I think it's a very long-term project and we all have to work on our attitudes and on our practice. And in the end, the long-term solution is really the only solution because as long as people are frustrated and upset and feel disempowered and victimized and so on, people are going to do things. It would certainly be better to take away the possibility of somebody like that buying a bunch of automatic weapons and spraying them around. I would certainly be in favor of preventing that possibility. But still, if they're that frustrated, they're going to do something else. They'll run over somebody with a car or they'll ride their car into a busy mall or something.

[52:46]

There'll be something that they'll do. And even if it's not that drastic, they'll go around abusing their children or their spouse or whatever. So what needs to happen is that the underlying causes of that person and the many other people who are frustrated need to be addressed. And I think that maybe it's not the case that the government is going to be able to address this. Maybe they can do something, but basically it's us, see, in our communities and in our families who have to address this in the long term. So I don't know in the short term. I mean, if policemen and women were well-trained and compassionately trained and they knew that the use of force was a last resort, maybe they are. I don't know. See, I'm not up on police training. But maybe they are. Maybe it's a good thing that there'd be more police on the streets. If police are really servants to the people and they're really there to protect people and prevent

[53:46]

violence, then why not? There's a lot of unemployment. Why don't we employ people to be guardians, guardian angels on the street? But if police are there to pack big weapons and shoot everybody who looks like they're not on the up and up, then I don't know how good that is. I mean, it's pretty natural for a policeman to be walking up and down the street in a dangerous neighborhood and look at somebody approaching them and size that person up and say, this person is dangerous, I'd better be defensive. I mean, that's the most natural thing in the world. And then they end up being defensive and therefore violent against people who are perfectly innocent. And that's going to happen. So it seems like in order to prevent that, the police would need tremendous support and tremendous training. And I suppose, I have to confess, that I doubt that they're getting that training. But it's possible that they could. It seems in my memory that I don't know if this is

[54:46]

the story or the truth about the Scotland Yard and their pretty much unarmed force doing a fairly effective job. Yeah, yeah. Well, the British have a tradition of that. They're pressing now, you know, to end that. Maybe they already have ended it, as far as I know. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, thank you for bringing it up. Yeah, Tony. Hi. I have a two-part question to your four-part when you mentioned about giving kind speech, beneficial actions, and then what was that last one? The fourth one, the translation that we did of that was called identity action. So here's the question. What is the difference between giving and beneficial action? And then what and how do you define identity action? Identity action. Well, yeah, this is the subject for a whole talk. I've given classes, you know, on this one little but very briefly, let me say that

[55:50]

in a way, giving and beneficial action are kind of close in a way. I mean, giving is maybe, let's put it this way. Giving is an internal spirit that one has of wanting to help, of wanting to dedicate whatever you do to the benefit of others. So like in Zen monasteries, for example, when we have a service and we offer incense and all this stuff, at the end of the service we give over whatever benefit there was in the service to beings, other beings. So we say, if we have accrued merit in this service, may we dedicate that to the enlightenment of all beings. So giving is a kind of spirit of open-handedness, non-possessiveness, dedication of whatever we're doing for the benefit of others. So maybe you can say it's an attitude, a very deep attitude that we constantly are looking at and examining and trying to produce in ourselves, training ourselves to as much as possible have that spirit of giving.

[56:57]

Beneficial action is when we begin doing things that will benefit others, that are directly beneficial to others. When we see people in need or in trouble and we begin doing activities that will help them, again, whether it's in small ways, and in Zen monasteries it's often very small ways where, you know, to let another person go first, or like I know that when Kadagiri Rose used to come here and I used to take care of him, I would put his shoes out so that when he walked out of the room his shoes would be right there for him. The little things like that that we do for each other that are beneficial. And then big things too, of course. That's beneficial action. And kind speech, I think, is pretty apparent what that is. And then identity action has to do with working to actually identify ourselves with the other person. Because the downside of beneficial action can be that there's a shadow in there of, oh, I'm helping you, see? And shouldn't you be grateful to me?

[57:59]

And I'm pretty good that I'm doing this for you. And so not that we should avoid beneficial action until we have a pure attitude. No. We should do beneficial action immediately. But be aware of whatever kinds of attitudes there are in our beneficial action. And then identity action is the practice of acting in identity with other people. There's a famous story that really impressed me many years ago when I started studying Zen. I don't know where I got these stories. I haven't seen them since. It was 20 years ago. I must have gotten some obscure Zen book. And I haven't seen it since. But in this book I remember reading that there was a story of somebody who had fallen down in the snow. And they were sort of stuck in the snow. And they were saying, help, help. And a Zen guy came by and they heard him saying, help, help. And the Zen person threw themselves into the snow. So,

[59:00]

this is a wonderful example of identity action. Now, of course, you may argue, well, that was pretty stupid. Why didn't they help them out of the snow? And yes, I agree. But it's a great story. But that's the idea. In other words, the meditation that shows you really clearly that whatever that person is suffering, you are also suffering that. And you are just as much helping yourself when you help another person as you are helping that other person. So, understanding that and going back to that understanding over and over and over again is a very important practice. Because we do things, you see, to help others just like it was nothing. You get up in the morning, you tie your shoes, you brush your teeth, you put on your robe, you save all sentient beings, you brush your teeth, you go to bed. It's no big thing, see? We don't make a big deal out of it. We just do it all in the same spirit. I remember years ago in a Sashin,

[60:03]

we have soji, we call it soji, which is temple cleaning. So you have zazen, and walking meditation, and more zazen, and service. And then there's 15 minutes of temple cleaning where everybody gets a broom and runs around and cleans everything and then they go back to the zen center for breakfast. And that's just part of the schedule, right? So one time in a Sashin, Mel from Berkley Zen Center, who's my root teacher, he was in a Sashin one time and he got sick. So he couldn't go to the meditation hall, he had to be in his room for the first three or four days of the Sashin. And Ed Brown, who was also in the Sashin, would go over and take care of him. So Ed would say, well I'm just doing soji on Mel, it's just part of the schedule. I just clean him up, give him some food, and then I go zazen and meditation. So that was a great spirit, you know, we just do things like that. And it was very kind and loving of Ed to do that, but Ed didn't say, well now I'm doing this very loving and kind wonderful thing, I'm helping this poor guy who needs help.

[61:05]

It was like, no, this is just part of my schedule, part of my practice to do this, and then I do the next thing. So that's what identity action, the practice of identity action produces, one hopes, ideally, a spirit like that. We're just doing things and everything is beneficial. Everything is beneficial. Dogen says in that little writing something like, to build a bridge or launch a boat is beneficial action. In other words, anything that we do, if we do it with that spirit and that real feeling for people can be identity action. So we don't have to have better work and less better work. See, our society has that. The better work, we know what that is, right? The better work is the one where you don't get dirty and you make a lot of money. If you get dirty and you don't make much money, it's not such good work, right? I mean, we know, it's very obvious. But how important is that definition? And are we being fooled by that? Yes?

[62:05]

I'm embarrassed to say, I really enjoyed your story this morning, your lecture. You don't have to be embarrassed. No, I'm embarrassed because I feel like a woman. And I just, it's so funny because I just came back from Los Galos and Saratoga where I had a really great practice which I filmed with my boyfriend who is now my ex-boyfriend. And I literally just moved here about a week ago. But you used to live here, right? No, I used to live here. I went away for a year and did very well. And I'm now back and just left the practice and everything behind. And so now I'm here and it's really interesting that the first day I'm here at Green Gulch to talk about this. And I guess I'm embarrassed because it's like I look at and try so hard to be in a loving,

[63:10]

intimate, long-term relationship and what that takes. And men are very interesting. It's true. It's true. It's really interesting. I think the world has changed in passion and love for the male species. I mean, really. And then there's the other part where we really are very different. There comes a point where you continue to do the processing that one does in relationships and then goes on to the next one. And after a while it's like, you know, it comes to a point where I've had enough of the processing. Yes, I've looked at what I'm creating and cut it off. I'm certainly aware of where my responsibility is.

[64:13]

There's always something to learn, right? But after a while... Can everybody hear what she's saying? There's lots of people in the way back there. So as I was saying, it gets to a point where how can you just stop this processing and just be and do with the person and have fun and enjoy your life until you're 150 or something. Why is it that there's so much of the processing in intimate relationships that it comes to a point where it's just enough. I've had enough. I would just like to enjoy. Why is there so much difficulty? I don't know if you heard everything she was saying, but she was expressing a certain exhaustion with constant... the negotiation and the processing,

[65:16]

as she said, that is involved in intimate relationships. Why can't we just live and why do we have to go through all this? I'm tired of it. Yes, I can understand that. Maybe you should just give up. Just forget it. You don't need that to be happy. It's interesting. A lot of times we see people coming to Green Gulch. They come a lot and then all of a sudden they disappear. And I often say to myself, oh, they found a girlfriend or a boyfriend. That's probably why we don't see them anymore because they're too busy, because they found a boyfriend or a girlfriend and that's why they don't come. However, that's when they should come more. That's when they should really come. That's kind of my point. That's kind of what I was saying. You ask the same question in my lecture.

[66:18]

How come we need to do all this stuff? Why can't we just live and why do we need to do all this? Well, I don't know why, but I know that we do. I know that it's very natural for us to be full of greed, hate and confusion. This is very natural. This arises in us without even trying to coax it. And somehow it is necessary for us to make effort on a path so that we can work with this spontaneously arising greed, confusion and aversion because it comes up. And it comes up right in the middle of relationships. That's when it comes up often the most stark and the most startling. So it's never like, oh, now we're just sort of traipsing along through life, thrilled every moment to be together. No, no, people have problems. And it's very true that men and women are very different from each other and have different ways of approaching things.

[67:18]

And each individual even is different from the other individual. So that's very true. So we have a lot of troubles and a lot of things to work through in any human relationship. But do we have a way of working it through? Do we have something that we're committed to that's bigger than what I need and what you need? As long as our relationship has to do with what you need and what I need, eventually what you need and what I need is not going to match up and eventually we're going to part ways. But if there's something that we're committed to that's bigger than what you need and what I need, we're still going to have the same problem of what you need and what I need. And we're going to have to suffer and work it through. But we have a way of working it through. So if anybody here gets a wonderful relationship starting when you leave, or maybe you met somebody today. Somebody was joking with me that, oh, Gringolts is just like a single thought. And they were like saying, as if to say, well, the practice there is really getting, this Sunday scene is such a...

[68:19]

And I say, well, so what? What a good thing. They meet each other, right? And they keep coming and they keep practicing. Well, they don't have to come here. They can go somewhere else. But if they keep practicing and they establish a relationship that's based on practice and they have a good life together that's beneficial to others, is that bad? Is that bad? Should we put up a sign, don't talk to... Yeah, exactly. So I don't think that's so bad. But I really think that if you have met somebody today, please don't think that now your practice is complete, that you no longer have to practice meditation, that you no longer have to be concerned about precepts and about the way of practice. Please realize that you have to even harder. Your practice is now going to become more difficult and the issues are going to become more sticky and you need all the more, some inspiration and some practice. And please encourage each other to practice together. Those are the relationships that will last, are the ones in which people are sharing a spiritual path together.

[69:24]

And the relationship is based on some spiritual path. This was always the way, whether you are a Native American 200 years ago, or a Christian 100 years ago, and whatever it was, you had a relationship that was based on a community and on a practice, on a path, on a way of doing something. Well, we've lost a lot of that. So that's why everybody's, you know, we have what I need and what you need. Well, that's not going to get us too far. That's going to lead to lots of unhappiness. So please remember this and just keep practicing. I think it's very important. And if you're in a relationship and one person is practicing and the other isn't, you have to keep with your practice but honor what they need, you know what I mean? Don't coerce them into practicing or think that you can't be nice to them if they're not practicing or whatever. And you sometimes have to give up your Sunday at Green Gulch because you need to take care of them. But steadily realize that it's very important to keep on

[70:24]

and eventually the person will respect you for it and it will spread into the relationship, even if the other person is not interested in the practice. So that's what's so important about Green Gulch though, moving up there to Los Galos and Saratoga. I was in so much frustration, I actually called here and got through to Rev Anderson. I talked to him on the phone for an hour and said, you know, this is what's going on and I had that sense of support that I've always had here because I've been here, I've been coming here for seven years. So I had that support there. And he's a wonderful guy, as you guys always say. But he was very separate from that. There's sometimes a level of commitment. People have different levels of commitment. And mine may be different and his may be different. Yeah, I know, it's hard. So forget about it. Just take care of your life, take care of your practice. You don't need those guys anyway.

[71:25]

Yeah, you had a question. Yes? No, but it's okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. I wanted to just hear you address a little bit, self and other. I think a lot of our quest in Buddhism, a lot of spiritual practices, is that quest of enlightenment or that quest of the oneness. And I don't know, there's some... Now I'm losing my words, but there's something about sort of the Western, you know, psychological that we're always looking for that early life unmet need of parental love. And there's a self-esteem gap that you try to fill from another person. And I just would like to hear you address that self and other issue. Is that clear enough? Well, I think so. I can probably say something. Well, you know, in the practice

[72:34]

we don't really make an issue or a distinction, we don't work with the definition so much of self and other. It's mostly working with what arises in the mind and heart moment after moment. So we have thoughts and feelings and emotions that arise and often they have to do with other people. And we practice awareness of those thoughts and feelings or emotions and then we turn to the present moment. So we do that kind of practice and then we do this other practice, as I was saying in the lecture, of going out to others and doing acts of kindness. Not to get others to do anything, but just because this is part of our practice. And we're working toward continually a sense of letting go. Letting go of our self-absorption, our self-clinging. Because we come to understand through direct experience that the more that we're absorbed with ourselves and the more that we cling to ourselves, the more unhappy we are.

[73:36]

And if we're needy and clinging to ourselves and needing other people to step in and do something for us, it's not going to work out. And some of us need many, many bitter experiences to learn this and we really learn it, we really know it. Yes, it's really true. If I'm clinging to myself, I need to have this, I need to have that, I need so-and-so to do this and that for me or give me this and that, definitely. You can even see it in the intimacy of practice and especially a sasheen or practice where you can watch them moment by moment. As soon as, bam, I have that thought instantly, the next minute I'm suffering, I can just see that, how clear that is. It's no longer a good idea or some religious kind of thing, it's like, I just know that when I start thinking like that, I am right away miserable afterward. And I'm feeling my misery so acutely that I really and truly finally don't want it anymore. And like I say, we may have to go a long time before we come to that, but that's the only way, we have to come to that.

[74:37]

I see that this kind of way of living causes suffering and I see this suffering so clearly that I am very clear that I don't want it anymore. And then, in earnest, we begin training ourselves to stop it. And when we see that kind of approach to our life coming up in our mind and body, we know a million miles away, here it comes, I know it very well, this is what happens, no thanks. And little by little, of course, a lot of times we don't notice it, it comes and gets us too late. Then afterward we say, oh, there it was, I should have, I didn't catch it. But then as we keep sitting, we keep practicing, our mind gets more subtle, our understanding of our self gets more refined, we can catch it. And we can reduce to a great extent the amount that we do this to ourselves. And then, you see, in all this, self and other is not an issue. It's just we're working with our practice. Self, other, I don't know.

[75:38]

I don't know. Doesn't this all lead to not feeling? Not feeling. Doesn't this all lead to not feeling? Or more anxiety. Or more anxiety. I don't think so. This has not been my experience or the experience with many people that I've worked with. I see where you might think so. But no, I think our feelings are more acute than ever. We feel tremendous joy and grief and pain and sorrow and happiness all the time. We see it more than we did before, I think. But we have a big enough and more stable base so that we can work with it and it doesn't have to... I mean, most of the time we go around not feeling what we're feeling because it's too unbearable. So we narrow down, we censor and we eliminate a lot of what we're feeling so that we can get through the day. But I think in practice we make ourselves more stable and larger so that we can feel those feelings.

[76:41]

And I don't think it... Now, the thing about anxiety, that's a very important issue. And this gets subtle, you know, and that's why it's a very old tradition in Zen and very important that there be individual meetings with the teachers because the public teaching is always... can easily be misunderstood because everybody is very different and it's very intimate and subtle, you know, what's going on with you. And I know when I'm talking and saying all this stuff that, you know, like it says in the sutras, everybody hears a different lecture. It's true. Everybody hears a different lecture. So somebody comes and they say, that's the lecture that I really... how could you know what I was hearing? That happens all the time. How did you know what I was... Is it because the lecture that I gave was exactly about that? No, it's because they heard that lecture. Somebody else heard a different lecture, see. So if I'm talking now, you all hear different things and I have no way to speak to each one of you individually. And even, of course, if we met individually

[77:42]

you would still be hearing not exactly what I was saying and who knows what I'm saying? I don't know. So it's an imperfect system. However, this issue of, wouldn't you be more... wouldn't you be so picky about every thought and feeling and everything that you'd be so freaked out every moment that this is what you would project if you hear what I'm saying. You might think that. But no, it's quite the opposite. Like I say, there's a stability and a largeness so that you can let things come and go, see. You get anxious, what causes anxiety? Anxiety causes when a thought is caused, when a thought arises in the body and mind and we grab it. And then we're racing with it, you know, and then more and more of it comes. And when we're in high anxiety, it's an overwhelming flood of thoughts and feelings and emotions which are beyond our control. And what causes that? What causes that is moment by moment grabbing onto the next thought and the next emotion and causing ten more to happen. But when we can let go as much as possible of this one,

[78:42]

then the next mental moment is much calmer and steadier. So it doesn't make us more anxious. It really does help us to let go of ourselves. Now we may have moments and periods in our practice. And I always joke about this, you know, that after you're practicing for a while, your problems are much worse because of this. I had no idea, you know, how messed up I really was. You know, I thought I just needed a little tune-up. But now I sit on the cushion and I see that I'm... And we do see that. And at first it's very shocking to realize that that guy who went around shooting all these people in the building, I could have done that. I could have done that. There have been days when I felt that, you know. And I'm shocked to think that I could have done that. But I could have. And I'm ashamed to think that I could have done that. But I could have. And pretty soon the shock and the shame we can let go of. And we recognize, yes, it's all in me. And we get used to it and we can work with it. And it becomes workable.

[79:43]

So I don't think that, you know, practitioners go around in a state of high anxiety all the time. I don't think that that's true. Although I see where you might wonder about that. So what you have to do is listen, you know. If you're new to all this, just check it out. Like the Buddha said, just trust it enough to do it a little bit and see what happens. And if you find that it really doesn't suit you and it causes you to be anxious and it causes you not to feel for other people and so on, and you think, wow, then please do something else. This is not the only thing you can do, right? This is just one little thing that we're doing here. And there are many other things to do. There are many. The opportunities and the possibilities for some kind of authentic spiritual practice are very wide. And we're lucky to live in a place where there's 10,000 ways. So far. So far we're lucky? How do you mean? I don't know about anybody else, but I have a sense of thought.

[80:47]

We're about to see curtailment of what you talked about. Of the spiritual practice opportunities? Of that range of freedom. This will be the last place in America that it goes. Oh, I see. You're thinking about the elections and the mood of the country and so on. Well, yes, it's not the happiest moment. It's true. But I'm always optimistic. I'm not worried, but I know what you're saying. So anyway, just to finish my thought. So what you should do is just check it out. And checking it out in our practice means doing the sitting practice. Do the sitting practice. Do it at home. Come to the instruction, if you haven't already, which happens every Sunday without fail at 8.30, I think. Learn how to sit. Sit at home. Come and sit on Sunday. Come to a few talks. Read Suzuki Roshi's book. Think it over. And if it seems beneficial, please do more. If it seems like it's the wrong thing, do something else, by all means.

[81:54]

Could I put in a plug? For what? What you're just saying. When I first started the practice eight years ago, I thought it was really stupid. Well, it is really stupid. Let's be honest, right? But I really thought it was stupid. It wasn't just a little bit stupid. It was really stupid. But the people that seemed to be doing it for a long period of time seemed to be in a lot better shape than I was in. So I was willing to give it a try. And now it doesn't seem quite so stupid. It seemed a lot less stupid when you put on your duck costume. That's when you really saw it was a serious practice. Duck costume. You missed that probably. It's a long story. If one comes and tries it out and then begins to have a kind of a sneaky feeling that maybe this is, that there's something happening here that's really useful

[82:57]

and important, what is that next step? I mean, I know you can take classes and such, but you said talking one-to-one. This is a kind of a mechanical question, but how does one pursue more systematic study? Yes. Well, thank you for bringing that up. I mean, that's a very important point. And I thought about this a lot. People have complained about us for a long time. They complain less, but they still complain. Nobody tells you what to do. What are you supposed to do? We don't have all these wonderful people coming up to you and shaking your hand and saying, Hi, I'm George and this is the way to blah, blah, blah. Maybe we should do that. In fact, it is a shortcoming, actually. I think it is a shortcoming. And hopefully, little by little, we will find ways to make it clearer what to do.

[83:57]

But instead of that, what we do, actually do, is we have many, many, many, many things going on all the time. There's two or three all-day sittings a month here at Green Gulch. There are workshops two or three times a month on the weekend. There's a Sunday talk. There's four sessions a year, length of retreats a year that are five days or seven days. There are classes that happen all the time. So, what you need to do is look at all the offerings and figure out what suits you. That's why we have so many different ones. We used to have only one way, and now we have a variety of different ways that people can plug in depending on their needs and what they feel comfortable with. And then, look and see what works for you, what works for your schedule, what feels right for your life, and get involved. Come to the classes, go to the retreats. And then, by and by, yes,

[85:00]

you can join and become a member, which means you make a pledge so much every month. And then you can certainly inquire in the office about seeing one of the teachers. You can certainly do that. We don't advertise this. We don't put up a big sign and say, you know, it just seems there's something distasteful about the idea of waving a big sign and saying, and you, too, can meet with this Gringotts teacher and all you have to do is pay so much. People say, why don't you do that? Why don't you say you can pay so much and they can see the teachers and so on? Well, I don't know, maybe we should do that, but it doesn't feel right. So this way, it's a little bit... You have to kind of... When it's time, then it'll be obvious. And any one of the people who you see around on Sundays, you can walk right up to them and say, here's my name and blah, blah, blah, and now what are we going to do? And somebody will respond to you. So it does take a certain amount of that kind of initiative. And for now,

[86:02]

it feels like that's enough. There was a while there when I tried to see what could we create for people who were coming a lot on Sundays and wanted something else. And in a way, most of those people tend to go to the classes. But for a while, we had, in the afternoon, after lunch, a get-together for those people. And that was very nice, but on the other hand, I ended up feeling like it really wasn't what people wanted to do because it was already a big commitment to come here in the morning and be here all the way through lunch. People work and so on. And they didn't really want to stay here every Sunday for an entire day. And I'm thinking now about... Sometimes we have a Wednesday night talk. That was when I said earlier I was talking about darkness. That was on a Wednesday night talk to the residents. But we don't have it every single Wednesday night. We go so many weeks and then a break. But anyway, I've been thinking out loud with some people, maybe we should make the Wednesday night talk

[87:04]

more frequent and invite who? Members? Experienced practitioners? How would we... No. Would they have plastic cards that they would flash when they came into the talk? But anyway, that's not insurmountable. Because it's a more intimate talk. It's wonderful that we have this Sunday program. Anybody can just show up. You might not even care about Buddhism. You might hate Buddhism, but still you can come and go to the talk and see what's going on. That's great. But what about people who are really experienced and want to, first of all, be together and have a more intimate situation? And what about that? Well, we haven't really addressed that. You still come on Sundays and so on. I actually want to think about that more and see. Maybe it would be the Wednesday night talk. Give me some feedback about this. Maybe not now, but as we see each other and as the weeks go ahead, let me know what you think about that idea. And maybe that's what we'll do.

[88:07]

I don't know. Yes, you did have a question. Since I was a small boy, I felt a lot of pain for the suffering around the world in different parts of the planet. It's said that if everybody was in the sand, it would be a far different world. And yet, if you look back through the centuries, it's always been such a very small portion of a total, small proportion of the population that was practicing one thing or another. And my question is, what could facilitate, would facilitate its greater effect in facilitating the world? Yes.

[89:07]

that's an important question. First of all, when you were saying what you were saying, it made me realize that we should also say that if you study history, right, of religion in the West and in the East, you have to acknowledge that it's not as if the Christian church or the Buddhist church has been the great force for good in the world. So we have to be honest about that. We have to know that. That to set up a big religious establishment may not be the greatest thing. It may not be leading to greater enlightenment for many beings. The Buddhist history in Japan and China is very checkered. It's debatable whether it's better or worse

[90:17]

than the history of the Catholic church. But what's the use of debating? Neither one of them has been entirely wholesome. So that's one thing we should remember. Don't forget that. Everybody doesn't have to be doing this practice that we're doing in order for it to have an enormous impact and effect. There have been golden moments in individual societies in which there was enough a critical mass of people who were practicing very seriously and that their message and their inspiration was spreading through a whole society. There have been wonderful moments of peacefulness and golden eras. There have been lots of wonderful societies. Even those societies were not without their problems. We are never going to eliminate starvation, injustice, war. I think as long as people are the way they are there's going to be a certain amount of that stuff.

[91:17]

There's going to be a certain amount of that stuff. But how much is there going to be? How much is there going to be? And what ways do we have of dealing with it when it arises? That's the question. And so I think the best thing that we can do, frankly, is to keep doing our practice and in our activity to try to touch as many people as we can hand-to-hand with our practice. Hand-to-hand. Because as soon as we make it into a... The bigger it gets, the more... In the name of our practice we can certainly do all kinds of things. So I like it when it's hand-to-hand. In other words, when you and I know each other in whatever way we know each other. And when you take the benefit of our knowing each other here to someone else and you really know that person. One person, you know, if each one of us goes to our workplace and practices the way

[92:18]

and really makes an effort to be kind and true and authentic then if there's a hundred people in this room there's five hundred people who now are influenced by this. And if they really are changed by it that's 2,500 people and so on and so on and so on. Because we could go on TV, right? Let's go on TV. Tell them about the Dharma. Well, you know, let's not. So, you know, I think we walk a line between... Of course we want to be as open. We were criticized a lot in the past for being really closed. You had a really, you know, nobody would talk to you around here. You can come, but nobody... Now I hope we're friendlier. So we want to be friendlier. We want to reach more people and we're more open to that. And we're trying different ways of doing that, but there's a limit to it. See, because once we go on TV... Pardon me? Is there any way... Pardon me? Is there any way...

[93:17]

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