This afternoon I'm going to talk on Section 11, that starts page 88. That's what I want to talk about, Section 88. This section is a little longer than the fourth, so I will first read the original story, the whole story, and later I'm going to talk paragraph by paragraph. Page 88. Huan-po. Huan-po is Oshaku in Japanese pronunciation. Obaku is a Hyakujo disciple. Therefore, Isan Reiyu, the person who said, you know the nature, is a Dharma brother.

[01:06]

And also, he was a teacher of Rinzai, the founder of Rinzai school in China. So Xiaopo or Obaku was sitting in Nanchuan's tea room. Nanchuan is Nansen. And Nansen is Hyakujo's Dharma brother. So Obaku's Dharma uncle. So it seems Obaku was practicing with his teacher's Dharma brother. So I was sitting in Nanchuan's tearoom, not in the window, but in the tearoom. Nansen, let me use Japanese pronunciation, Nansen said, practicing dhyana and prajna equally.

[02:10]

You clearly see the Buddha nature. What is the essence of that teaching? Chuan-po-se or O-bak said, the essence is attainment, when you are not depending on a single thing without the 24 hours. Nansen said, elder, elder monk, isn't that the attainment you yourself have achieved? Obaku said, no, not at all. Nansen said, forget for now about the cost of the food and drink you have had here. Who's going to pay for those store sandals of yours? With that, Obaku abandoned the conversation.

[03:14]

This is the story. Do you understand? This seimen, over, not over, but non-seimen quote, and asks to overshoot. In this translation, practicing dhyana and prajna equally, you clearly see the whodamichi. It's another quotation from the Parinibbana Sutra. The expression is, Jō e tō.

[04:26]

Naku. Myō. Ken. Bushō. Jō e. Tōgaku-myō-ken-bushō. Jō, in this translation, is translated as dhyāna. Dhyāna is zen, or chant, in sastry. But usually this jō is a translation of sabad, not dhyāna. And A is wisdom, or prajna, in Sanskrit. To is equal. To equal D, study or practice, clearly can see Buddha nature.

[05:38]

So this means if or when you or we study Amadi and Uitam equally, you will see the Buddha nature clearly. That's the translation of this quotation. And the answer to the question is, What is the essence of the original word, D? D is reason or principle. So what is the principle of this saying, this teaching, is nothing's question. In the Parinirvana Sutta, when the Sutta discussed about the Buddha nature, that will be a chapter of Shishiku, chapter of Lion's Roar.

[06:54]

in order to see the Buddha nature. That's what we have discussed, the practice of samadhi and prajna. And according to, I think it's kind of unusual, but according to the sutra, the sutra is saying, this samadhi means shamatha, and this wisdom means repassion. Shamatha is Shi in Chinese or Japanese, and the repression is Kan. Shi and Kan is the translation of Shamatha and Repression. And Shi, Chinese character, seems to stop. And Kan is to see. So sometimes this Shi Kan translates as stopping and seeing. And according to the sutra, samadhi means we don't take the shape or color of the object and we don't make any discrimination.

[08:27]

So stop making discrimination is shamatha or sthottima. So this is no discrimination. And the vipassana, or wisdom, is to see the object clearly and make distinction. That is Joe and A, Samatha and Vipassana. Usually, especially in Mahayana Buddhism, prajna is defined as no discriminating wisdom, wisdom beyond discrimination. It seems, at least according to this Parinibbana Sutra, that wisdom is... Samadhi is no discrimination.

[09:28]

And wisdom means discrimination beyond non-discrimination. That make sense? You know, discrimination, usually our human discrimination is delusion, but based on right and dislike, or preference. And practice of the personal, you know, samatha, is to stop that. stop discrimination and just calm down. So no discrimination. But Buddha's wisdom is not that condition of stopping. But somehow Buddha stood up from the sitting and walked to the beer park to teach. And in order to teach, he again had to use a reader.

[10:33]

And in order to talk, of course, I think Buddha needs to make discrimination or distinction. And also, when someone asks a question, in order to understand the person's question, Buddha needs a discriminating mind. or in order to understand the problems for suffering. Buddha need to make separation. But that wisdom of separation or discriminating wisdom is beyond discrimination. I think that is the idea. And the sutra says, it's not three steps, but the sutra discusses sha.

[11:49]

Sha, the Chinese character, literally means to throw away, give up. But sometimes, as a Buddhist term, sha is used as a neutral, like as a sensation, present, unpleasant, and neutral. This neutral is sha. Present is rough, and unpleasant is cool. And neutralized is sha. So kurakusha is three kinds of sensations we receive. But here, sha means to be equal. And to be equal here means to be well-balanced. That means jo and e need to be equal and well-balanced.

[12:58]

That means non-discrimination and discrimination should be well-balanced. That's what this jo e tōgaku means. So this tō means sha. Jo and e should be well-balanced. Some people are good at practicing or cultivating samadhi, no discrimination. And some people are good at cultivating wisdom, discrimination. But the people who are good at practicing or cultivating samadhi should learn wisdom. And people who are good at wisdom need to cultivate samadhi.

[14:05]

That is how these two, jo and e, can be well balanced. And the sutra says bodhisattvas are usually good at, in winter, you know, in the Mahayana Sutra, the trajna is the most important thing. That's why the first important Mahayana sutra is Prajnaparamita Sutra. That means within six parameters, prajnaparamita is most important, primary practice. So bodhisattva cultivate wisdom of prajna. The sutra says shravaka and pratyekabuddhas cultivate more samadhi than wisdom.

[15:09]

So Shravakant Pratyekabuddha doesn't see clearly. But bodhisattva is not good at activating samadhi, so they make distinction. So both are not well balanced. But it's the Buddha, all Buddhas, Buddhas and World Honored Ones can, not can, but do. equally study Joe and A, Samadhi and wisdom. So Buddha, Buddhists can see the Buddha nature clearly. That is what this sutra is saying.

[16:15]

So, in this circle, summary, that is, no discrimination. But no discrimination means everything is one thing, no separation. And discrimination means everything has its own unique nature, and nature, form, body, energy, and function. in the first five of the ten satsyas I taught from the Lotus Sutra. So, maybe we can say, A is the aspect of u-buddhanity, and J is the aspect of yu-buddhanity. And we need to use both equally in order to see the Buddha nature.

[17:25]

That is the meaning of the quote in this sutra. And this Jōe Tōgaku, which is equally studying samadhi and prasina, is one of the important teachings of the platform sutra of the three nuns, or the six ancestors. In the platform sutra we can find such teachings as follows. The general or the three nuns said, good friends, my teaching of the Dharma takes meditation. Here meditation is jaw, or samadhi, and wisdom as its basis. For sanadhi and wisdom is the base of shrenan's teaching.

[18:34]

And he said, never under any circumstances say mistakenly that meditation and wisdom, jo and e, are different. They are unity, not two things. So, in the sutra, in the case of Parinirvana Sutra, these are two things, and we need to study and practice both equally. So if we shift two hours, we have to study two hours. That's the idea. But, here in answer, Jaw and air, samadhi and meditation are one and the same thing. It's not well balanced. Meditation itself is a substance of wisdom. This substance is tight.

[19:38]

for, say, my body in the ten satins. And meditation itself is a substance of wisdom, and wisdom itself is a function of meditation. The function is you. I and you are two very important concepts. In Chinese philosophy, not only Buddhism, but also Taoism, too. Tai is the thing itself, and you is that function. You know, in the Lao Tzu, Dōtoku, or virtue of Tao, it's the same thing. Tao is Tai, and toku, or virtue, is you. So anything has its own substance or tie and its function. So samadhi and wisdom are one and the same thing, and samadhi is tie or substance.

[20:59]

Meditation is a substance of wisdom, and wisdom or discrimination, male distinction, is a function of samadhi. So no discrimination and discrimination should be... At the very moment when there is wisdom, if there is wisdom, then meditation or samadhi exists in wisdom. At the very moment when there is meditation, then wisdom exists in meditation. So meditation is itself samadhi. Meditation is itself wisdom. And wisdom is itself samadhi. So shamatha and vipassana are not two separate things we have to equally study.

[22:02]

But when we practice cultivating shamatha, wisdom is already there, or vipassana is already there. When we practice vipassana, shamatha is already there. That is a freelance teaching. So it's kind of different, a little different from the Arunabana Sutras. And good friends, this means that meditation and wisdom are alike, same thing. Students, be careful not to say that meditation give rise to wisdom. Meditation gives rise to wisdom. There is a kind of common understanding. Vinaya, samadhi and wisdom are called three basic studies.

[23:06]

And common understanding of those three basic studies is, of course, when we become a Buddhist monk, we need to receive Vinaya precept. And that is the way we regulate and harmonize our daily lives. That is a preparation to study Samadhi, or meditation. When our daily lives are not well organized, it's not possible to sit quietly. If we have so many confusion and problems and competition in our daily lives, and when we try to sit quietly, Very difficult at all, at least. So in order to sit quietly in peace, we need to peace-specify or well-organize our life. And that is why we need to keep the precept.

[24:12]

And, you know, calm down our mind with shamatha or meditation. And when we calm down, our mind calm down and become clear. Then we can see things clearly as we've done. Then we have to see the reality of each and everything. That is the basic idea. of three basic studies, Vinaya, Samadhi, and Wisdom. But what Huinan is saying here is we should not say that meditation gives rise to wisdom. So this is not a kind of a step. You know, this Joe, Samadhi, is not a preparation to study wisdom. Or that wisdom gives rise to meditation.

[25:21]

So these two are not a matter of cause and result. These two are not two, but one and same thing. Or that meditation and wisdom are different from each other. To hold this view implies that If things have duality, if good is spoken while the mind is not good, meditation and wisdom will not be alike. If mind and speech are both good, then the internal and the external are the same, and meditation and wisdom are alike. The practice of self-awakening does not lie in verbal argument, verbal argument using words and concepts. If you argue which counts first, meditation or wisdom, you are deroded people.

[26:28]

So it's not a matter of which is first. These two are at the same time. you won't be able to settle the argument and instead will cling to objective things and will never escape from the false state of phenomena. So, Huyena said, Joe and A are one and the same thing. It's not a matter of well-balanced or not. And Of course, Joe Nansen is the third generation from the Six Patriarchs and Shunran. So he must know, I mean, Nansen must know this teaching of Shunran. And that is the question Nansen gave to his... I think at the time, Obaku was studying in his assembly, so he was a student of Nansen.

[27:42]

To me, it's kind of difficult to understand what this story means, so I tried to... find out what's the relationship between Nansen and Obaku. And I tried to find the stories, other stories. between about Nansen and Obaku, and in the Record of Dharma Lamp, or Keitoku Dentoroku, I found three stories, and the third one is this one, this story. But the first one, to me it's interesting, and it has some connection with this story, that is, The story says, when Nansen, the abbot of the monastery, is holding a ryōki and enters the monk's hall, that means to have meals, then somehow at the highest seat, over-the-court sitting,

[29:00]

The source of it is Dai-ichi-za. Dai-ichi-za means first seat. Dai-ichi-za first seat usually means the seat for shuso or head mark. But it seems he was not, Obak was not head monk. So that was not his seat. But somehow Obak was sitting in the highest seat. And I'm not sure whether this is Ashisho's seat or not. It seems that that seat was for Nansen, the abbot. But somehow Obak was sitting on that seat. So the abbot had no seat to sit. And even when the abbot came in, he didn't move. Then Nansen asked, the literary translations, he used to call Obakas choro, choro literally means elders, elder.

[30:38]

In what era or age did you practice? I think it means how long have you been practicing? How long have you been practicing? That means you are still junior and about is coming, but you don't move, you don't offer the seat. How long have you been practicing? Then Oba Kuo said, I have been practicing since the time of Kuo This is the name of Buddha. Kuo literally means empty king, empty king Buddha. That means before anything happens. So this saying is something like I have been practicing since Big Bang. But Nansei said, if so, you are still my dharma grandson.

[31:51]

That means Nansei is saying, I am practicing longer than that. So he said, so move. That's the story. That story doesn't say it. I guess so. Otherwise, no later stories. I think it means Obakua is still very young. And yet he thought he attained something called enlightenment. So I don't care anything. You know, the seniority or the orders in the monastery or rules, regulations, those are all conventional things. I don't care. that kind of, I think, attitude, and many of the so-called heartbreak tenpaku shimasu, like that.

[33:04]

I think that was the stage of Obaku. So he was pretty much a hakinestu, I think, or an erogat because of his understanding and practice and maybe his grasping. to his so-called enlightenment. In that case, that is kind of a sickness of Zen. It means, I don't care anything. No discrimination, no separation, no conventional thing. I see the absolute truth. I think Nansen saw that sickness of over-crew through his attitude. So I think this story is a continuation of that incident.

[34:13]

So he is asking, if you really see the Buddha nature, True reality, you have to practice jo and e. Discrimination and non-discrimination should be together. But you ignore discrimination and only see beyond discrimination. And that is not complete. So you should see that discrimination again. That means your practice is not yet complete. So I think that is the meaning of his question. What is the experience of this teaching? Cho and E are samadhi and wisdom for discrimination and non-discrimination. Then Obako's answer is probably as nothing expected.

[35:25]

Now the essence or principle of this teaching is attained. Then you are not depending on a single thing throughout the 24 hours. That means I don't depend on anything. I am me. That's it. I have no interdependent origination with others. I'm perfect, complete. This is a kind of delusive, absolute truth. And this is also a kind of ignorance of interdependent origination. That's why Nansen said, Elder monk, isn't that the attainment you yourself have achieved? That means that you are still your own personal, in this translation, attainment, but the original word used in Chinese is kensho.

[36:40]

Kensho is a view. So isn't it your own personal view? And Aumak said, no, not at all. No, not at all means yes it is. Dogen explained this expression later. Then Nansen said, forget for now about the cost of the food and drink you've had here. Who's going to pay for those thorough standards of yours? That means in order to attain or gain such views, you have been practicing many years. and who pay the food and drink, and who pay for the Storo Sanders to travel to visit teachers to practice.

[37:44]

That means even though you have such a view that I'm independent, still you could practice in that way from the help or support of many people. If your view is such a kind of one-sided, the person that you see by interdependence, relationship with others, connection with others, if your view is still such a limited, how can you return the money for the food you receive? and for the straw sandals you offer when you travel to practice. That means you have been practicing in this way and you have such a view and yet you are still supported by so many people.

[38:51]

How can you return that kind of debt of kindness to those people. I think that is the meaning of this original story. This is my own personal view. So maybe it's not correct. But this is my understanding. So then, with that, Shonpo or Obaku abandoned the conversation. He became quiet. He stopped talking. I think that is the meaning of this story. But as usual, Dogen Zenji interprets this story in a completely different way. The essential meaning of practicing dhyana or samadhi and prajna equally is not

[40:13]

Since the practice of dhyana does not infringe on the practice of prajna, you clearly see the Buddha nature when both are practiced equally. This is the fact that Parinibbana Sutra is saying if we study jo and e equally, then we can see the Buddha nature clearly. But Dogen said, this does not mean that. So in that sense, Dogen is closer to the human's understanding. Rather, it is clearly seeing the Buddha nature is a practice in which dhyana and prajna, or samadhi and prajna, are in equal balance. That means seeing, the clear seeing of Buddha nature is the, in a sense, basic thing.

[41:26]

Because of this, we can practice equally jo and e, that means discrimination and non-discrimination. Only when we see the Buddha nature clearly, we can use discrimination and no discrimination equally. I think that is what Dogen is saying. It's not a matter of as a result of practicing those two equally, you can see the Buddha nature clearly. But this should be the first. And Nansen is articulating what is the meaning of that. So Dogen, again, doesn't read Nansen's question in the story as a question, but he read as a statement.

[42:35]

What is the meaning of that? means this fat is again the word which points out the dustness. Same as ka, fat. So fat, this fat, the reality beyond any fat. I forget. any definition or meaning. This is the meaning of this teaching, the meaning or principle of this teaching. And he is, in effect, saying that by saying, what is the meaning of that? This is nothing statement.

[43:37]

Clearly seeing the Buddha nature is the act of who. Who is the person without definition, without condition, unconditioned person. And that is Buddha nature. So clearly seeing Buddha nature is the act of Buddha nature. That means Buddha-nature clearly sees the Buddha-nature. It's not a matter of this deluded person. If I practice Joe and A equally, I can see Buddha-nature. If we interpret this in this way, this is still subject, object, and some kind of happening within the encountering between subject and object. But Dogen said that is not the case. Buddha nature is clearly seeing the Buddha nature.

[44:42]

And because of that, we can practice both samadhi and wisdom, or we can use discrimination and non-discrimination equal. And this discrimination and non-discrimination can be in our thinking and not thinking. And this Buddha nature, this Buddha nature, seeing the Buddha nature is hishiryo, or beyond thinking. thinking, not thinking, beyond thinking. So this, according to Dogen, this is a description of our zazen, what is happening. practice dhyana or samadhi and wisdom, or thinking and not thinking, or not thinking and thinking.

[45:51]

The Buddha nature, so this is not realist to see something, subject, see object. But according to Dogen, this ken is same as gen, gen in genjo koan. That means Buddha, that means manifestation. So Buddha nature manifest itself. as a form of thinking and not thinking. I think that is how Dogen Zenji leads this conversation. As a form of thinking and not thinking. Yeah. In terms of letting go, I think this relates in terms of letting go. Yeah. How does that work? Yeah, within letting go, this thing happens. Letting go means I don't control, I don't see, I don't chase after our thinking.

[46:59]

At that time, you know, the nama rupa cease to be a nama rupa. Then each and everything appear as they are. I think that is how Buddha-nature thinks of Buddha-nature clearly. But Buddha-nature, manifest Buddha-nature itself. So this is a description of Jiju-zang-nan, or our Zazen. To say, if you practice Buddha and nature equally, you will clearly see the Buddha nature. I am not, I don't agree with this translation. The original sentence said is, instead of jō e, Dōgen put, instead of jō e, put bushō, bushō tōraku.

[48:07]

And that's why this translates, I think, Buddha and the show, Buddha and nature equally studying. Then clearly say Buddha-nature. But I don't think that is a dogma. Buddha-nature equally study. Equally studying means using both joy and pain, samadhi and wisdom, or thinking and not thinking. That is the way Buddha nature clearly sees the Buddha nature. And what is the meaning of that? What is the meaning of that? This is, again, not a question. is also an authentic utterance of truth.

[49:10]

So this is a description of reality of our Zazen. And Kyoko said, or Obako said, saying you are not depending on a single thing throughout the 24 hours, essentially this means even though the 24 hours exist within the 24 hours of each day, they are non-depending. This statement by Dogen has something to do with what he discussed in Uji, being time. And in the Uji he discussed two, what kind, what type, but two kind of time. One is a time within each day. You know, for example, we wake up at 4.30 during this retreat, and we sit from 5 to 4, 15 minutes, and we practice qin qin for 10 minutes, and we sit again, and after that we have breakfast.

[50:30]

That is how we think the time is, and we try to follow that schedule. That is a kind of a time in our common sense. But in Shobo Genzo Uji, he discussed, this is not only time we experience. There's another, I don't know the word, type or kind, or layer, or whatever. The time which doesn't move. The time which doesn't pass away. The time is always there, always this moment. And from the time of the Big Bang and until the endless end, this is one moment. The divided time using the learnings such as one day, one year, one day, or one minute, one second, is our convention.

[51:33]

It's not real time. It's our human-made convention. Actual time doesn't really move. There's no such separation. So in our conventional idea of time, depending upon what time is it, we sit in the Zen and we stand up and do kinking. And because this is a time of lecture, I have to give a toga, even though I don't want to. This is depending on time, depending on the time and conditions we try to think what is the best thing to do, what is my responsibility, what is my duty. But he said, I mean Dogen's interpretation of what Huan-Po is saying is that, O-Bak said, for 24 hours I never depend on anything, means this time,

[52:51]

And this being is not an individual, particular person within particular time, within conventional flows of time. But this one moment, from the Big Bang to the endless end, this is one time. And this one time does not depend on anything. There is no foundation beyond that. And within this time, things are interdependent and changing. But the entirety of that movement depends on nothing. That's it. I think that is Dogen's interpretation of this saying of Obaku. So Dogen doesn't understand Obaku's saying as his arrogance, that I am alone.

[54:08]

I can't stand by myself. I don't rely on anything. But he interprets this saying of Obaku as the expression of the absolute reality on which things are coming and going and always changing, interdependent, till the totality of this interdependent origination depend on nothing. And because not depending on a single thing is within the 24 hours, it is the Buddha nature clearly seeing. That's how Buddha nature clearly seeing the Buddha nature. So the reality itself. It's not a matter of I can see it or I can live without relying on others.

[55:14]

As for the 24 hours, 10 is not the time of their arrival. This is what Dogen said in Uji and also previously in this writing, Buddha-nature. he discussed about when we, in order to see Buddha nature, we have to see temporal conditions. I think this is section two. So time has always arrived. This is only time we can live, we can see, we can practice. Time in fact learned that there are arrive and not occur. That means everywhere, all where, everywhere this present moment has arrived.

[56:21]

And that is only time that exists. Are the 24 hours referred to here, 24 hours in the human world? Are they 24 hours somewhere else? Or is this a temporary arrival of 24 hours in a land of white silver? Land of white silver referred to in a land of Samantabhadra Bodhisattva. Anyway, somewhere else, other Buddha land. But forever it is. The present moment is only present moment. And time is always alive. That is this moment. And whatever the case, whether it is our own world or another world, like a world of Amitabha Buddha or Samantabhadra Buddha, it is non-dependent.

[57:31]

The totality of this universe does not depend on anything. In fact, this lies within the 24 hours and can be non-dependent. So Dogen Zenji interprets it in a completely different way. No one besides Dogen could think it through. It's really amazing. Elder monk, isn't that the attainment you yourself have achieved? This is an answer to the question to Obaku. It's the same as saying, isn't that the Buddha nature clearly seen? So this means, is this your view?

[58:37]

Means, is this Buddha nature seeing the Buddha nature? Or not? Even though Nansen makes this utterance about it being Obaku's attainment, Obaku must not turn his head as if it referred to him. That means this Elder Monk does not necessarily mean Obaku as an individual person. But Elder Monk is the same as Buddha or Buddhaneity. the entirety of reality itself. So this is a view or a scene of Buddha nature. Although it may apply very well to Huan-Po Obaku, it does not refer to Obaku. Obaku certainly is not necessarily only himself.

[59:44]

Because a master is the same as an elder monk, way of attainment or view is utterly undisturbed and all-pervading. So this is the description of the entirety of the network of interdependent origination. And said, no, not at all. And explained what this means in Chinese language. In Song China, when a person is asked about some talent or ability he may possess, even if he wishes to acknowledge the ability, he answers, no, not at all. It's kind of a humble way to say, yes, I am.

[60:50]

And in Japanese, we have the similar expression. We say, dou itashimashite, or something like that. When we do our best and people praise, we say, dou itashimashite. Anyway, that same idea. So that means the meaning of the word and the person's mind or what that person is trying to say are different. So hence the words know not at all do not literally mean know not at all. They are not to be taken at face value. As for the mode of understanding of a Zen master, even though he is a master or even though he is a hyonpo or obaku, when he speaks, he has no choice but to say no, not at all.

[62:00]

That means obaku as an individual is also disordered or pervading. That means connected with everything. So, no-not-at-all is kind of a humble saying of, yes, I am. But this no-not-at-all is also a saying or utterance of the Buddha nature, although that was spoken through Obaku's mouth. It was Buddha-nature expressed Buddha-nature itself. That's why his daughter said, when a water buffalo appears, it can only say, wong, wong. That means there's no way to say it. Water buffalo can only say this thing.

[63:04]

That means the Buddha-nature can only say in this way. This kind of utterance is authentic. So this is Buddha-nature talking about Buddha-nature, or Buddha-nature expressing Buddha-nature. Try to utter the essential meaning of his utterance. Make an utterance on his utterance. So he's asking us, to us, we should express the same thing as Obak did, or as Nansen did. And Nansen said, forget for now about the cost of the food and drink. You've had here who is going to pay for those thorough standards of yours.

[64:06]

Dogen said, you should commit yourself for many lifetimes to probing the meaning of this utterance. And there are several different interpretation of this saying. I mean, in the comment of Dogen. What Dogen said is, you should concentrate your mind and study deliberately why it is he does not concern himself with the cost of the food and drink. The reason he is so concerned about the straw standards is because he assumes that in the years of pilgrimage, many tears of them must have been now. Some people interpret this as the difference between the cost of food and drink and the cost of straw standards.

[65:21]

and they think cost of Food and drink is enlightenment, and the cost of standards is practice. So practice and enlightenment. So your attainment is okay, but to whom we should return the cost of practice? Now you have this kind of clear scene because of your practice, but while you are practicing, you receive many help from all beings. How do you return this? Another interpretation, I like that one better, is these two are not two separate things, like enlightenment and practice, but these two are both purgatory. You know, food and drink and so on are all necessary things to practice. So both are practice, and practice and enlightenment are one thing.

[66:26]

But on one side we should be concerned, that means we have to think and we have to deal, we have to control. And on the other side we don't need to be and we cannot be concerned, we cannot control. So even though, you know, these food and drink and soul sundry are the same thing, practice and enlightenment, that is Buddha nature. But one side, we have to be concerned. That means we need to think and we need to make distinction and discrimination. And another side, we don't need to be careful. That means we don't need to make any discrimination. So one side we have to grasp, another side we have to open our hand.

[67:32]

So grasping and ungrasping, these are two sides of the practice of Buddha nature. I think that is, to me, This is my discrimination, but I like this better. Anyway, the way it continues. Here, one must say, if I couldn't pay for the sandals, I wouldn't put them on to begin with. That means I will walk with the Sundance.

[68:22]

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