So all people have the text with both Japanese and English translation. OK. That's good. So during this Genzo-e, we are going to study Dogen Zenji's Shoubou Genzo, Kesa Kudoku. Before starting to talk, on the text. As a kind of introduction, I talk about this text, when this is written. And also, I think it might be important to understand why Dogen wrote this. I mean, he has many faces. He wrote many writings, and from some writings we know he is a Buddhist thinker or philosopher.

[01:11]

And he's a poet and a father. Of course, he's a spiritual leader of our Buddhist community, our Zen Buddhist community. And when we read his philosophical writings, it seems he deconstructs everything. He negates everything. He doesn't allow us to grasp certain concept or idea or philosophical theory. And when we read his poems and his poetic writings, he's really poetic, and he says, everything in this world is Buddha.

[02:13]

You know, all the sounds are the Buddha's, you know, expanding dharma, like a sound of a stream, and all the colors of mountains are Buddha's form. So it seems everything is Buddha. And when we read his writings, like Kesakudoku, or Fushiku Hanpo. Fushiku Hanpo is a manual or a description of how to use Oryoki. And he described how to use a toilet. or how to wash our face, and how to brush our teeth, and how to behave in the sodo, or monk's hall, or zendo. And when they describe those things, he's very strict.

[03:19]

And many people ask, and also he made some rules or regulations in his monastery. and he seems he's very strict and very kind of, you know, precise. Those are kind of different faces of Dogen. And often people ask me if he doesn't allow us to grasp any philosophical idea, or ask us to be free from all those theories, Why he had to make so many regulations? Why he had to force, not force, but teach, taught his students to do things in certain particular ways?

[04:23]

You know, when we study, you know, like Buddhism or philosophy of shunyata or emptiness, you know, we put emphasis on freedom, liberation. But when we are taught how to use oryoki, we don't feel it's free. You know, it's not really free. But if we want to be really Dogen's student, we really understand why he has so many different faces, and what is his true face, or faceless face, or formless face. Actually, that was my question.

[05:26]

I mean, when I was young, I loved to study Dogen's writings, such as Genjo Koan or Buddha Nature, those kind of philosophical writings. And I really devoted my life in sitting practice. That was my teacher's teaching. But honestly speaking, I hate formalities, formal things, when I was young. And I couldn't really understand the meaning. But little by little, when I keep practicing Zazen and studying Dogen's writings, his teachings as a whole becomes little by little clearer.

[06:30]

And of course, I'm still in the process of studying, so what I'm talking now is just a kind of a provisional, temporal understanding. Next year, maybe I may talk completely different thing. Actually, when I was 30, I thought I understood Dogen, but now I think I didn't really. So 20 years later, I think when I was 58, I didn't really understand Dogen. So everything is impermanent. Anyway, I start to talk about when he wrote this chapter of Shobo Genzo, Kesa Kudoku.

[07:32]

At the end of this text, it said, presented at Kannon Dori, Kosho Horinji, on the first day of winter, the first year of Ninji. The first day of winter is October 1st. Not really October, but the first day of 10th month. And the year of Ninji, first year of Ninji is 1240. As you know, Dogen Zenji was born in the year of 1200. So in 1240 he was 40 years old. His life was kind of short. He died when he was 53. Well, maybe some of You are not so familiar with Dogen Zenji's life, so I'll briefly describe.

[08:55]

Dogen Zenji was born in the year of 1200. And his father was traditionally considered to be the koga-michi-chika, that who was the kind of a secretary of the emperor. And his mother's father was a prime minister. So he was from very high class aristocrat family. So he was educated very well. When he was four years old, he started to read Chinese poetry. And he studied a lot while he was a kid. And if his father was Minamoto Michichika, his father died when he was two years old.

[10:02]

And traditionally, people thought he was kind of adopted. Not adopted. grown, educated by his elder, eldest brother, whose name was Minamoto Michitomo. But these days, Sōtō scholars think Minamoto Michitomo was real father of Dōgen. So, traditionally said, Dōgen Zenji's father died when he was two, and his mother died when he was eight. His father was Minamoto Michitomo. His father was alive until he was 27. That was the year he came back from China. So the image of his life become real change, real different. Anyway, but it seems it's true, his mother died when he was eight.

[11:04]

And because of his mother's death, He himself said, because of the awakening to the impermanence due to his mother's death, he allows body-mind and he started to study Buddhism when he was nine, that is 1209. When he was nine, he read Kusharon. Do you know what Kusharon is? Kusharon is Abhidharma Kosha, one of the most important Abhidharma texts. It's very difficult. And even though his family did not agree, give him agreed, he made his decision to become a Buddhist monk. When he was 13 years old, so 12, 13, he became a Buddhist monk in Tendai tradition.

[12:14]

And when he was 18, he practiced and studied Tendai teaching at a monastery named Enryaku-ji in Mount Hiei near Kyoto. But somehow he didn't like that monastery, so he left. And he started to practice Zen at Kenrin-ji. Zen Buddhism was something very new in the 30th century. The first Japanese priest who went to China and received so-called Dharma transmission from Chinese Zen master and brought back Zen was Eisai. And he founded Kenrinji. So Kenrinji was actually first Zen monastery in Japan.

[13:23]

And yet Eisai died 1215. So we are not sure if Dogen really met with Eisai or not. That was one of the arguments among scholars, and I don't know if it is true. But it is true because Dogen mentioned that he started to practice Zen at Kenrin-ji with Eisai's disciple Myōzen. So he became a so-called Zen monk when he was 18 years old. And he continued practicing Zen with Myozen until 23. Somehow, Myozen, his teacher, and Dogen thought they should go to China to study and practice more traditional, authentic Zen. So Dogen and Myozen and

[14:28]

A few more people together went to China. And in 1227, he came back from China. During five years in China, the first few years he tried to find a true teacher, but somehow he couldn't. So he was almost disappointed and wanted to go back to Japan. But somehow he found the Soto Zen master, Tendo Nyojo. And Dogen found that Nyojo was his true teacher. And he practiced with Nyojo for two years until 27. And he received Dharma transmission from Nyojo So he received a Soto Zen tradition instead of... Heisai's tradition was Rinzai.

[15:37]

So he became the first Japanese Soto Zen master who received transmission from Chinese Zen master. Right after he went back to Kyoto, Japan, he wrote a first writing, Fukanza Zengi. In Japanese and English translation, this is usually translated as a universal recommendation of Zazen. This is still a basic text of our Zazen practice in Soto tradition. In the first three years, he lived at Kenrinji, the same monastery he lived in before he went to China. but somehow he found this temple was not a good place for him.

[16:39]

One reason was this is Rinzai, and another, second reason, I think, is this is not really a Zen monastery. Kenrinji and Eisai's sangha practiced together with Zen and Tendai. and also so-called esoteric Buddhism, or tantric, or Vajrayana Buddhism, so-called, within Tenrei. So he left Kenrin-ji and he started to live in a very small hermitage in Fukakusa. And when he was 31, So he was still young. He wrote the second writing, Bendowa, or The Talk on the Wholehearted Practice of the Way.

[17:42]

And for a few years, until 1233, he lived by himself, but little by little, people came to visit him. people wanted to practice with him. So he, in the year 1233, he founded his own monastery, Kosho-ji. That was where this, you know, Kesaku-roku was written. And he, well, because I don't have much time, I just Go fast. 1243, he lived at Koshoji for 10 years until 1243. For some reason, he left Kyoto, Koshoji, and went to so-called Echizen. Echizen.

[18:47]

And later, he founded Eiheiji. And he lived at a hedge for another 10 years. And in 1253 he died. That was his life. So his life is really focused on studying Dharma and practicing Dharma and searching the truth. And when he received transmission he came back to China. Japan from China and taught what he studied in China. So his life was really devoted on buddhadharma. Anyway, so this Kesa Kudoku was written 1240, so seven years after he founded Koshoji, and three years before

[19:56]

he moved to Echizen. And this 1240, this year, is a kind of important year, I think, at least to me. I mean, After he founded Kôshôji, he... No. The year he founded Kôshôji, 1233, he wrote Genjô Kôhan. This is another one, Makahanya Haramitsu. Makahane Haramitsu's very short writing, and this is kind of his comments on the Heart Sutra, Prajnaparamita Sutra.

[21:01]

And Genjo Koan is still one of the most important writings of Dogen. These two are part of Shobo Genzo, but until 1238, 1238, he didn't any chapter of Shogogenzu for several years, because I think he had to focus on his time and energy to establish his Sangha, monastic practice. So he wrote writings like Dakudo Yojinshu, or The Point to Watch in Studying the Way. a collection of 10 short essays about an important point of our practice. And also, I think 1235, a person whose name was Ejo came to join his sangha.

[22:07]

And Ejo became his main student, or disciples. And Ejo recorded his informal talk, the collection of his informal talk recorded by Ejo became Zuimonki. So those writings, early writings, are very important as a kind of foundation of his teaching. And when I started to work on translation, that was 1981, I lived in Massachusetts for five years, but because my body was half broken, I had to go back to Japan. And because I couldn't work with my body, my teacher encouraged me to work with my mind and to work on translation. At that time,

[23:08]

I didn't think I could translate Shobo Genzo. So I made a kind of a project to translate these early writings of Dogen. And it took me more than 10 years, almost 15 years. And I think four or five years ago, I first heard Genzo at the city center. At that time, I felt, you know, I finished translation of these early writings, and I wanted to go to the next stage, and that was from 1238, he started to write Shobo Genzo. But in 1938, he wrote only one chapter of Shobo Genzo, named Ikka no Myoju.

[24:15]

That means, One Piece of Bright Pearl. And in 1939, he wrote four. But these are not I cannot say important, but not long writings. And in the year 1240, he wrote six chapters, and those six are really important writings. And after the first genzo here, We studied Sansui-cho, or the Mountains and Water Sutra. That was written in 1240. I tried to study those six chapters of Shogo Genzo written in this year.

[25:26]

Other five are Keisei Sanshoku, Kesei-sanshoku is the sound of a valley stream and colors of mountains. And Raihai-tokuzui. Raihai-tokuzui is attaining or gaining the marrow by or through making prostrations. We studied this at Genzoe in Minnesota. It was very cold. And for this, Uji. Uji is being time. This is really interesting, important, and very philosophical about his teaching about time.

[26:30]

And another was Showaku Makusa. Showaku Makusa is not doing anything evil. And this one, Kesa Kudoku, was also written in this year. Actually, that is a problem. Not a problem, but it said, you know, this Tesakudoku was written in the first day of 10th month of 1240. But he, another, like, actually, on that date, there are three chapters of Shogo Genzo dated on the same day. One is Uji. And second is kesakudoku. And third was denne. Den-e or denne.

[27:30]

Denne is a transmission robe. And when you compare denne and kesakudoku, the basic point is the same thing. In both writings, he wrote about kesa, or love. So traditionally, people think one of them, denne or kesakudoku, was a draft. And he revised and made the final material. Monk scholars like Menzang, he lived in the 18th century, thought Kesakudoku was a draft, first draft. And he refined it and wrote Denne.

[28:36]

Dogen. Menzang thought, Menzang, Zuihou, Kesa-kudoku was a draft. And later, Dogen Zenji refined it, revised it, and made denrei. That was a kind of traditional understanding. But these days, scholars think opposite. And traditionally, in Soto tradition, renne was very kind of valued, because this is writing about Dharma transmission. But it's changed, because in the early 20th century, there's another kind of a set of Shobo Genzo was founded at Yokoji Monastery. in Fukui, not Fukui, Ishikawa Prefecture.

[29:45]

That is 12, so-called 12 volumes, or 12 chapters version of Shobo Genzo. And Kesa Kudoku was one of the 12. And these days, scholars think, you know, first Dogen Zenji wrote 75 volumes of Shobo Genzo. And he finished writing 75 volumes of Shogogen by the year 1246. And later, according to Ejo's writing, Dogenzenji had the idea that he wanted to make it into 100. So he started to write other, more chapters. And he wrote 12 after 75. And the final one was Hachidai Ningaku.

[30:48]

Hachidai Ningaku is the eighth awakening of great being. That was Dogen's final last writing about Eight Points of Awakening, but was also Shakyamuni Buddha's last discourse. So he wanted to make, you know, Shobogen's 100 chapters, but he couldn't complete it, and he died. And Kesakudoku is one of his twelve. So today, scholars think, first, in 1240, he wrote Benmei. And later, he revised it and wrote Kesa Kudoku. When you compare Denmei and Kesakudoku, the most impressive difference is in Kesakudoku, he wrote, no, not wrote, but he quoted many kind of stories from the early sutras.

[32:05]

And like a story of the Uman monk Uppalavana, or Renge Shikibiku, and all other kind of quote from the sutras. That was not done so often in Dogen's early writings. In the early writings, he mostly quote from Zen literature instead of sutras. Within this 12-volume version, there are a lot of quotes from the sutras, and his comments are really short. So his writing, when we compare this 75-volume version of Shōgō Genzo and 12, it's very different. That, you know, Dogen's writing, we kind of think typical Dogen is all in 25, I mean, sorry, 50, 75 volume version of Shobo Genzo.

[33:22]

And 12 volume is almost like a quote from the important point of sutras. And Dogen Zenji wrote really short comments And one of the reasons his writing style was changed is in the year 1250, Dogen's supporter or patron who helped us, helped Dogen to found Eheiji, whose name was Hatano Yoshishige. He was a kind of a lord of that area of Eheiji. This person donated the entire a set of Buddhist sutras to Eheji.

[34:33]

So those collections of sutras became available to him. Probably that was fine. He changed, not changed, but he started to quote many things from sutras. and he didn't discuss so much about, you know, so-called Zen literature. Anyway, this is... I think this was originally written in 1240, but it was revised in a later year. We don't know when, but somehow Dogen Zenji left the date in the same. in 1240. So the question here is, if he revised the original writing, denne, you know, whether denne is not necessary anymore or not.

[35:41]

And if we write some draft and revise it and make the improved version, we discuss the original, you know, draft. If that is the case, we have to say that, you know, 75 version of Shogo Genzo, if its DNA is included, is not the final version. It's a collection of draft. So Dogen Zenji might rewrite or revise those writings. And that is the point. Today, Japanese Soto Zen scholars are studying and discussing and arguing whether Dogen changed his thought or not. But I'm not so much interested in that part. And now,

[36:46]

I start to talk on why, you know, love, or okesa, or oryoki, and all other formal things are important in Dogen's teaching. I think in order to do so, I'd like to start from the very early Buddhist teachings. Four years ago, when I talked on Sanseikyo, I kind of introduced a very short sutra or sutta from Stanipada. And that was really interesting to me, and I kept studying and trying to understand deeper about that sutra. That was really, to me, interesting to kind of make a bridge between early Buddhist teaching and Logan's teaching.

[38:01]

You know, we Japanese received Buddhism twice. You know, once Buddhism came to Japan in the 6th century. Officially, maybe. earlier, unofficially. And since then, until early 20th century, we studied Buddhism only through Chinese tradition. But after 20th century, we started to study, you know, Pali sutras, or so-called Theravada tradition. And, you know, Theravada suttas, or nikayas, are translated into Japanese. And it seems, you know, Mahayana Buddhism came through China, and so-called Theravada Buddhism, or Pali tradition, are so different.

[39:11]

And, It was really interesting to me, and it was a problem to me. Why are these two so different? And I liked both, so I kept studying both, but I couldn't really connect these two traditions. But, you know, later if I, you know, keep reading and thinking about this very short, old sutta from Stannipāta. Stannipāta is considered to be one of the oldest Buddhist scriptures. You know, even in Pāli Nikaya, Pāli Suttas. Pardon? Stannipāta.

[40:14]

Pardon me? Sutta Nibbhata. Do you know Sutta Nibbhata? Thank you. Hello. This is a collection of very short stanzas.

[41:21]

And this stanza is considered to be one of the oldest scriptures in Buddhism. As old as Dharmapada. I think You know Dhammapada, but Tantrapada is not so well known, but there are at least one English translation. It seems those two, at least those two are, how can I say, not created, but compiled, before the original separation of the Buddhist Sangha, but happened about 100 years after Buddha's death. The Sangha divided into two, into two fathers, Theravada, so-called Theravada, and Mahasanghika.

[42:29]

But at least these two collections of Buddha's teachings were made, not made, but compiled before that separation. Even Parinikaya was handed down, you know, generation after generation, or memorized. So those Nikāya was not written. It started to written down, I think, around the first century. So, you know, we consider, you know, Pali Nikāya were much older than Mahāyāna Sutras, and that is true. But the time those started to written down at around the same time. But even among the Pali canons, those two are considered to be oldest.

[43:35]

And this short sutra is considered by Japanese Buddhist scholars as older, form of twelve links of causation. Or, you know, even those twelve links of causation, or four Noble Truths, those teachings, set of teachings, using the numbers, was made up. I'm sorry, not made up, but a better word. kind of systematize or make like a formula using all the material after Buddhist Sangha become kind of institution. They, you know, so-called

[44:50]

Abhidharma teachers create the system of teachings, systemize the Buddha's teachings, and those teachings, set of teachings with numbers, were kind of established after those scholars started to systemize Buddha's teachings. But these two are much older than such work. So people, Buddhist scholars, think original teachings of Buddha might remain in these older scriptures. So we can see older versions of Buddha's teachings about dependent origination. using these, this is not only one, but using different, kind of a similar version of this teaching of dependent origination.

[46:03]

Later, so-called scholar monks established twelve links of causation. So in this version, it's much shorter. It doesn't have twelve. So let me, this is short, very short, and Kind of understandable, so let me read and introduce what the teaching is. Saga said a questioner, whenever there are arguments and quarrels, there are tears and anguish, arrogance and pride. and grudges and insults to go with them? This is the beginning of the question. And I think this is really very familiar with us, the things happening within our daily lives.

[47:07]

So this was a question. And the question was, can you explain how these things come about? Where do they all come from? So the question is very concrete. These are the problems or troubles we, all of us, experience in our daily lives. So it's not philosophical at all. It's a very practical, actual problem. Then, Buddha says, the tears and anguish that flow arguments and quarrels," said the Buddha. The arrogance and pride and the grudges and insults that go with them are all the result of one thing.

[48:12]

Only from one thing those problems come about. They come from having preferences. Preferences. From holding things precious and dear. So we prefer one thing and hold and cling and attach ourselves to that thing. And we hate other things. According to Buddha, that is the cause of these problems. Insults are born out of arguments, and grudges are inseparable from quarrels. This is Buddha's answer. And this word, preference, is the same word in the 12 links of causation.

[49:18]

as craving or attachment. Sanskrit word is upadana. And the person asked again, but why, sir, do we have these preferences? Why do we have these preferences? These special things, special things to us we like, or we attach ourselves. Why do we have so much greed and all the aspirations and achievements that we base our lives on? Because of aspiration, we try to do something, and we make effort, and we achieve something, and we become proud of it. and we want to compare ourselves with others, and we want to be better than others.

[50:22]

That's the causes of argument and quarrels. Where do we get them from? That's the question. Then, Buddha said, the preferences, the precious things, said the Buddha, come from the impulse of desire. Impulse of desire is first in the 12 links of causation. So this sutra goes against different, opposite order. You know, preference is number nine. And the first, or impulse of desire, is number eight of the twelve links of causation. So, the last three are not there in this sutra.

[51:27]

The last three are becoming, or existence, and birth, and old age and death. Those have not yet appeared in this teaching. So the preferences, the precious things, said the Buddha, come from the impulse of desire. So too does the greed, and so too do the aspirations and achievements that make up people's lives. Another question. From where, sir, comes this impulse of desire? What is the source of this impulse of desire or thirst? From where do we derive our theories and opinions? And what about all the other things that you, the wanderer, have named, such as anger, dishonesty, and confusion?

[52:41]

Buddha says, The impulse of desire, or thirst, arises when people think of one thing as present and another as unpleasant. That is a source of desire, this as present and unpleasant. The word is different, but this is in the complete version of Twelve Links causation that is Jū in Japanese. Jū is a sensation, a feeling. Present feeling and unpleasant feeling. Did you say from things that are pleasant or I'm sorry. P-L-E-A-S-A-N-T. Present. Present.

[53:48]

Another unpleasant. Okay. Then, anger, confusion, and dishonesty arise when things are set in pairs as opposite. The person with perplexity must train himself in the path of knowledge. The recluse has declared the truth after realization. Another question. But why, sir, is it that we find some things present and some unpleasant? So the person keeps questioning what is the cause of this thing. Then, what could we do to stop that? And this idea of becoming and this integration.

[54:53]

Could you explain where fat comes from? Where this unpleasant and unpleasant feeling comes from? Then Buddha said, It is the action. It is the action of contact, of mental impression, that leads to the feelings of present and unpleasant. So the feelings or sensation of present and unpleasant arise because of the contact. Contact means contact between sense organs and the object of sense organs. Without the contact, they would not exist. And as I see it, the idea of becoming and this integration also comes from this source, from the action of contact.

[56:03]

So contact between self and object is the cause of all these problems. That is what the Buddha taught. And this contact is number six within the twelve links of causation. And the problem, not the problem, but the interesting thing is the next one. So what, sir, does this contact come from? The question is where this contact comes from. And the grasping, grasping habit, what's the reason for that? Is there anything that can be done to get rid of possessiveness and anything that could be eliminated? so that there would be no more contact.

[57:08]

How can we live without contact with others? If we don't need to contact with others, then we don't need to have those old problems. I think it's really logical. if there is such a way to live without contact. And Buddha said, there is. He said, contact exists because the compound of mind and matter. Contact exists because the compound of mind and matter, mind, our mind, and matter is things. exist. The habit of grasping is based on wanting things.

[58:12]

If there were no wanting, no desire, no wanting, there would be no possessiveness. Similarly, without the element of form, of matter, there would be no contact. This compound of mind and matter in Japanese is myōshiki. And in Pali, this is nāma-rūpa. Are you familiar with this word, nāma-rūpa? Nama is same as English word name. Rupa is form.

[59:15]

In this case, this is material. And the meaning of Nama Rupa. Nama Rupa is a... number four in 12 links of causation. But although the same word, but nama-rupa in the 12 links causation and nama-rupa in this sutra is different. In the case of 12 links of causation, nama-rupa is something between six sense organs. All right. Look, number Lupa is between consciousness, that is number three, and six sense organs, that is number five.

[60:32]

And number six is compact. In the case of 12 links of causation, this nama-rupa is something inside of ourselves. And in some English translation, In the case of 12 strings of causation, this Nama Rupa is translated as something like psychophysical personality. Psychophysical personality. So this is something inside between consciousness and sixth sense organs. That means in the process of becoming adult, At certain time, you know, the sixth sense organ has not yet functioned. But consciousness is there.

[61:36]

There is some formation of personality. It's a combination of mind and material, in that case, body. And another English translation of nāma rūpa is mentality slash materiality, name and matter. So something, the mind and body is not yet kind of separate. That stage of growth of human beings is called nāma rūpa. But in this sutra, Nāma-rupa is completely different. And this, according to Buddhist scholars, that meaning is older than the meaning in the Twelve Links of Causation.

[62:37]

And the meaning of Nāma-rupa in the older version of dependent origination is object, something outside of ourselves. So it's not a part of our body and mind. It's an object of our mind. So to me, this is really interesting. Because usually, the same word, interdependent origination and dependent origination, considered to be the most important teaching in entire Buddhism. But in the case of Mahayana Buddhism, we call it interdependent origination. And in the early Buddhism, it's called dependent origination. I think you know the difference. In the case of dependent origination, A is a cause and B is a result.

[63:48]

In that case, B allows depending on A. So this is one direction. A does not depend on B. Only B depends on A. So it's only one direction. In the case of 12 links causation, first one is ignorance. formation, consciousness, and this process. This one depends on this one, and this one depends on that one. So it's only one direction. But in the Mahayana Buddhism, at least from the Nagarjuna, it's not one direction. It's both directions. That's why we call this interdependent origination. And in the case of twelve links of causation, this is dependent origination, one direction.

[64:57]

But if this nāma rūpa is an object, then the subject, the mind, and the object, nāma rūpa, are interdependent, each other. So we could think, you know, this teaching is a kind of an origin, or Mahayana idea of interdependent origination, our mind, our individuality, our life, and things outside are interdependent. Well, that is really interesting to me. Buddha said, contact exists because the compound of mind and matter exist.

[66:06]

Those are the objects. So the contact between self and others happens because of nama-rupa. And the meaning of nama-rupa, or name material, means If the object, no, if there's only looper, only material, we cannot really make relationship. When we establish some relationship with object, we name it. So this is a marker. Marker is a name of this thing. And the name we put to this marker shows the relationship between me and this thing.

[67:10]

This means, I think this is a marker, and I use this to write something on the whiteboard. You know, this is a relation between the person and this object. And not only the names, but I, you know, we often go further, whether this is important, or valuable, or useful, or useless. Our Nama Rupa becomes more and more precise, and we make decisions and definitions and we create a concept of what this is. That is possible because we can put names on this one. So things exist as nama-rupa because of the relationship between this one and the thing.

[68:13]

That is the meaning of nama-rupa. or a combination of name and material. If we don't have a name about something, we can't even think of it. We cannot even, you know... How can I say? Like or dislike. Because we cannot think about it. If we have some name, even if the name is something unknown, you know, it starts to exist within our life. So without this nama-rupa, this means without this relationship between self and object, there's no such problems as the person who made this question, you know, mentioned. Buddha... another question.

[69:18]

What pursuit leads a person to get rid of form, or nama-rupa? And how can suffering and pleasure cease to exist? So if nama-rupa ceases to exist, you know, pleasant and unpleasant things cease to exist. Then suffering and pleasure also cease to exist. This is a fact I want to know, and this is really a good question, I think. And Buddha said, I really like this part, there is a state where form ceases to exist. Buddha said, there is a state. I don't like the word state. So it's possible that form or normal persists to exist.

[70:27]

That is, it is a state without ordinary perception. It is a state without ordinary perception. and without disordered perception, and without no perception, and without any annihilation of perception. That is, according to Buddha, that is a state where normal passes to exist. And this word, perception, in Japanese translation is sou, same sou as someone asked me this morning, that is perception, thinking. And when Uchiyama Roshi said, opening the hand of thought, that thought is same sou, that is perception. And to me, what the Buddha said here,

[71:35]

without ordinary perceptions, without disordered perceptions, without no perceptions, without any annihilation of perceptions. I think this is what we do in our dazen, by letting go of thought, by letting go. You know, perception is actually there, but it's not my perception. It's just empty coming and going. So it's there, but it's not there. And without disordered perception, of course, there are some ordinary or... How can I say? Ordinary or... Normal perceptions, we usually think that is true, or correct. But sometimes we have disordered perceptions, logically wrong, or just daydreaming, or fantasy.

[72:48]

And without no perception, means we cannot say there is no perception. It's there, but because we let go, we don't grasp. We open our hand. Perception is there, but I often say, thought is there, but I don't think. Because we don't grasp. Thought is coming and going like bubbles in the water. We don't grasp. That means we don't take action. using those bubbles coming up in our mind. That's what we do in our Zen, by letting go. So we cannot say there is no perception. It's there. So, you know, without any annihilation of perception, we don't eliminate our perceptions.

[73:56]

This is very, kind of logically speaking, kind of a strange way of seeing things. But if we have some experience of Zazen, I think we can see what Buddha is saying. you know, a state without ordinary perception, and without disordered perception, and without no perception, and without any annihilation of perception. I think that is our ascent. So, what Buddha said, it is perception, consciousness, that is the source of all the basic obstacles. Because of this perception, you know, the material becomes nāma rūpa. So, when we let go of the perception or thought, then this is still there, but nāma rūpa disappears.

[75:05]

or Nama Rupa ceases to exist. Does it make sense? When Nama Rupa of this thing, that means our definition, idea, concept, evaluation, judgment within our mind, if we let go of those things, this ceases to exist as a Nama Rupa. This starts to be as this, Just as it is. Right. Rupa, only rupa. No nama. So, there's no way to cling to it. I think to me, this is from my experience of Zazen practice, this is when all and everything starts to appear as buddhadharma. cease to exist as nama-rupa, and start to appear in front of ourselves as Buddha's teaching.

[76:21]

As Dogen Zen said, the sound of a valley stream is the expounding of dharma. and the colors of mountains start to see as Buddha's appearance. And that is when, I believe, that is when, as Dogen Zenji wrote in the very beginning of Genryo Koan, all beings is Buddha Dharma. All beings cease to exist as nama-rupa, as my object of my desire, my understanding, my judgment, my evaluation. But it starts to, how can I say, be, to be as this thing it is, without any, how can I say, grasping. So, when I read this short sutra and think many times about what this means, I found this is a description of our Zazen practice.

[77:43]

We don't have much time. I'd like to Continue, two more points. So, I've finished today here. Any questions? Please. Could you say that no, when the nama is no, is it that, could you say that's without interpreting form? You know, that form is without interpretation. You don't even have to say it in adjunct. You don't have to interpret it. Right. And even, you know, we don't, in our Zen, we really do nothing. Even try to eliminate or try not to interpret, we really do nothing. That is, to me, that is what Dogen Zenji called just sitting. So we really just sit and we have no subject-object relationship.

[78:56]

Then the object and subject, not object and subject, but these five scanners and other things, you know, how can I say, become really one, one thing. Please. Yes, so I'm talking about zazen. I have to continue. So, when we stand up from our cushion and get out of zendo, how this teaching works. That is about Dogen's teaching about formality, or day-to-day practice.

[80:00]

And that is how our zazen, in our zazen we are liberated from, you know, this dualistic relationship. But in our daily lives, you know, we have to think, and we have to make choice. Now we have to make a decision. Otherwise, we cannot do anything. In order to make a decision and make a choice, we have to make discrimination, which is better or which is more appropriate or what is the best thing for now. So we have to think. So now Marupa, you know, come back. So this is not a one-time thing. Once we experience this, Navarupa never comes back. But we found the kind of layers, you know, in the kind of surface level of our life, you know, we are really subject and object.

[81:12]

Now I am speaker, you are listener. I'm talking what I understand through my experience and study in the way you may understand. That is my... So you are Nama Rupa to me now. But when I sit in the Zen door, I never think about people understanding my Zazen. So that kind of separation disappeared. So even hundreds of people sitting, when all people are letting go of thought, then this is really one thing, one Zazen. No one sees anything. No one judges anyone. And yet, once we stand up, and get out of zendo, we have to think. So Nama Rupa comes back. So how we can deal with, how we can not deal with, how can we contact in a different way, different way from, you know, create problems and make our life suffering,

[82:22]

That's the word. I forget the word. Now my mind doesn't work. Well, I need a rest. So I continue to talk tomorrow. Thank you very much.

[82:47]

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