This morning, at the end of this morning class, I talked on the Shobogenzo Uji, or being time, and Fattogen is writing in Shokoji-so and Uji. are the same reality. So I think Uji or being time is often considered as expression of Dogen's philosophical insight and often considered compared with Western philosophy such as Heidegger's identity about time and being. But I think Fat Dog and Lord in Uji is very concrete, actual way all beings are within our life. And because I didn't have much time, I didn't really explain.

[01:10]

So I'd like to add one thing. or explain a little more about one sentence from Uji and go to the final part of Shohoji-sou. That is, the sentence is, The nature of the truth of this, yesterday and today, lies in the time when you go directly into the mountains and look at the myriad peaks around you. Hence, there is no passing away. So he's talking about time, yesterday and today. And yesterday and today is the same as today and tomorrow. Rise in the time when you go directly into the mountains.

[02:16]

Somehow he put this word, going directly into the mountains, without much explanation. So I need to explain what this mountain is. And this mountain, the same mountain as I said to Evan's question, the mountain appeared in Sushi's poem about Mount Roo. So I'd like to a little bit talk about this Mount Roo, I mean poem on Mount Roo, and Wanshi Andogen's poem. And also, last year, we studied Shobo Genzo Uji at the Genzo at Dharma Field Dance Center in Minneapolis. And I introduced these three poems on Mount Roo.

[03:22]

And they added one more poem. following the same meaning by Katagiri Roshi. So I'd like to introduce Katagiri Roshi's poem also. The original poem is by Suu Kyi. Suu Kyi is a very famous Chinese poet in the 11th century. Sōshoku in Japanese. I hope this is right. I'm not sure. He lived in 11th century. So about the same time with Wanshi. Right? No. Wanshi is 11th century. 11th? His 11th, Wanshi's 12th, Dogen's 13th.

[04:30]

Susie's poem on Mount Roo is as follows. Regard it from one side, an entire range. From another, a single peak. Far, near, high, low, all its parts different from the others. If the true face of Mount Roo cannot be known, it is because the one looking at it is standing in its midst. Shall I read again? regarding from one side an entire range, from another a single peak, far, near, high, low, all its parts, different from the others.

[05:38]

If the true face of Mount Roo cannot be known, it is because the one looking at it is standing in it with it. Sushi Sushi's another poem Dogen quote is the poem about the sound of valley stream and the colors of mountains he quote this in Shobogenzo Keisei Sanshoku or sound of valley stream and colors of mountains hmm All its parts. All its parts. So he's walking in the mountains and he see the Mount Roo.

[06:44]

When he see the mountain from one point, it is like a part of the range. That means there's no independent one mountain, but it's part of many mountains like a wave. But when he see the same mountain from another side, Mount Roo is really a single peak. So this means the same, one and same mountain is from one side, it's an independent single peak. From another side, it's just simply a part of the range. Mount Hiei is the same. Antaichi is located in the west part of Kyoto and Mount Hiei is eastern part of Kyoto.

[07:46]

So every day I could see Mount Hiei from Antaichi. And from the side of Kyoto, Mount Hiei is really a single peak. But when we see the same mountain from other side, the side of Lake Biwa, then we cannot see which is that mountain, because it's really a part of the mountains. So I think this is like when we study physics about light. When we observe light from one way, it's a particle. But when we observe the same light from other way, it's a wave. A particle means it's independent. And wave means there's no such independent thing. So I think he's describing the same thing, independence and interdependence.

[08:48]

I think it's very interesting. So far, near, high, low, all its parts, different from the others. And next line is, if the true faith, this true faith is a Zen word, true faith of Mount Roo, because Mount Roo seems very different each time from each place. Then what is a true faith of Mount Roo? That is a koan, you know. In Zen, we are asked to see the true face of ourselves. And we are always changing. We are permanent. So we are always changing depending upon the conditions. Then what is true face of this person? That is one of the very important koans in Zen.

[09:54]

And that is what he's saying here. And he said, if the true faith of man true cannot be known, this is a translation from one book, translated by American scholar. But I'm not... I don't agree with this translation. I don't think this is an if clause. Both are possible reading because there's no if in the original. So this is possible, but my way of reading is this is not if clause, but the true face of Manturu cannot be known. I think this is a statement because the one looking at it is standing in its midst. So if this is the if-crow, that means if he gets out of the mountain, then he can see the mountain objectively from outside.

[11:01]

And it seems that is the interpretation of this poem in Rinzai tradition, because he is still in the mountain, so he cannot see true face, but he get out of it, he can see the true face of mountain. But my understanding is it's not possible and it doesn't need to. We don't need to see the true face of mountains because there's no true face of mountains besides each and every way it seems. So it's depending upon the relation between the person and the person's position and the mountain. So each, what do you call, each look, each appearance is a true face. There's no true face beside those changing faces.

[12:04]

I think that is how I understand this poem. So this is Sushi's poem about Mount Roo. And this Mount Roo, I think, is this entire network of interdependent origination in which we are coming and going. And depending upon where we are, this mountain looks very different. So we want to know what is the true face of this mountain, but we cannot see. So we have a problem. But in Eihei Koroku, is a collection of Dogen Zenji's formal discourses and also his Chinese poems.

[13:12]

And let's see, Volume 9, Ehe Koroku is a big book. It has 10 volumes. And Volume 9 is a collection of 90 koans. And Dogen composed poems or verses on each of 90 poems. So it's like a shouyou roku or hekigan roku. The difference is he didn't make any comments. He just wrote, composed the poems or verses on each koans. And 20, I think 25th, four or five, 20, I think 25, he, Dogen Zenji, quote Wanshi's poem following Susi's poem on Mount Roo. And Dogen himself composed his own poem.

[14:18]

So I'd like to introduce from Eihei Koroku, Wanshi's and Dogen's poem, following Sushi's poem on Mount Roo. Wanshi, so this is Taigen and my translation. Wanshi's poem is, With coming and going, a person in the mountains. So pretty clear, you know. I mean, Wanshi is writing a poem following Sushi's poem. With coming and going, a person in the mountains. Understandings that blue mountains are his body. The Blue Mountains are the body, and the body is the self. So where can one place the senses and their objects?

[15:25]

So in Fato Wanshi is saying is this is mountain and we are coming and going with this mountain. And for him to see true face of Mount Lu or not is not a matter. Because it's not possible. But his insight is this entire mountain is his body, the person who is coming and going's body. That means the person and this entire mountain is one. So the Blue Mountains are the body. And he said, the body is the self. So this entire network of interdependent origination is the person's body. And therefore, that is person's self. So where can one place the senses and their object?

[16:28]

That means we are someplace in here, and we are seeing the Mount Lu as an object. So we see the object using our sense organs, and Mount Roo is object. But what Wan-Chi is saying is there's no place we can place senses and their object. That means sense and their object is working together as one. because the person in the mountain and the mountain are one thing. This is Wansi's poem. So to see the true face of Mount Tulu or not is not important, but to live together, to walk together with the mountain is important in Wansi's poem. And Dogen's poem is as follows.

[17:32]

A person in the mountains should love the mountains. Love in Chinese and Japanese is is not often used in a positive meaning. Love is another word of attachment. But here Dogenzen uses this word ai, or love, in a positive meaning. That means to be intimate and one with this mountain. So a person in the mountains should love the mountains with going and coming. The mountains are his body. So Dogen is agree. Dogen agreed with Wanshi. This entire mountain is itself his body. And the mountains are the body.

[18:37]

But Dogen said, but the body is not the self. That's the difference between Wanshi and Dogen. Because if we think this is the self, then this looks, sounds like an art man or a bluff man. So this, even though I draw a circle, there's no such circle. Circle looks like a boundary between inside and outside. But there's no such circle. If we call this one closed circle, then maybe we can call this a self. But this circle is not really there, but just a network. So there's no self. This is kind of an important point. Even some Zen teachers use the expression big self, small self and big self.

[19:46]

And we should forget the small self, but we should see and express the big self. And at least according to Dogen, there's no such thing as called big self. That is a very important point to understand Dogen. There's no small self exists and no big self exists. Only this dynamic movement as a total function is there. Everything is coming and going. That's all. And finally, he said, so fear can, one, find any senses or other or their object. So there's no such separation between sense organs and their object. So this is one total dynamic function. That's all. This is Dogen's poem.

[20:49]

And Katagiri Ryoshi's poem is as follows. I think he made this poem following Dogen's poem. Katagiyoshi's poem is, to love the mountains, to love the mountains is not to know about mountains, but to climb mountains and to live and die continuously with them. Then the mountains themselves speak to us frankly about the infinite world of the mountains, which human beings otherwise never know. I did it again. To love the mountains is not

[21:52]

to know about the mountains, but to climb mountains and to live and die continuously with them. Then the mountains themselves speak to us frankly. about the infinite world of the mountains, which human beings otherwise never know. I leave this copy so you can make a photocopy if you want to have a copy. Anyway, I think these are all connected. Do you write that in English or in Japanese?

[23:01]

In English. Do you read books from other poems? Do you have a book in English? Sushi's poem is from one book entitled Mount Rue Revisited. And next to Banshee's and Dogen's is from extensive record of Ehe Dogen, Ehe Goroku. And Katakiroshi is from, I don't know where. Maybe from Udumbara, the magazine from MCMC. Anyway, I first talked on this poem by Suu Kyi, I think at Green Gulch, right before I had a first genzoe here on Mountains and Waters Sutra, as a kind of introduction of Mountains and Waters Sutra. And I think it's really closely connected.

[24:07]

And after that, for Genzoe, I studied Keisei Sanshoku, Sound of Various Streams and Colors of Manpen. Laihai Tokuzui, making prostration and gaining marrow. And Shouakumakusa, not doing anything evil. And Uji. Uji. Yeah, Gyoji. Gyoji is different. But those chapters of Shobo Genzo are written in the year 1240, in the same year. And in all those chapters of Shobo Genzo, he quotes the expression from this poem.

[25:14]

a person in the mountains. And in Uji, this sentence in Uji is one of them. He just said, we should go directly into the mountains. So this mountain is this mountain. The mountain, Sushi, Wanshi, Dogen, and Katagiyoshi are talking. This mountain. And within this mountain, let's see, Once I have a walking retreat in North Carolina at a small town called Hot Spring. There's a small Hot Spring, and we walk on the Appalachian Trail. we have the walking retreat on in october beginning second week of october it's the most beautiful time of the year the colors of mountains are really beautiful and during that retreat we visit a place named max patch do you know

[26:33]

And it's a small mountain. It's not so high mountains. And it's round, and there's no tree on the mountains. So when we are top of that mountain, we can really see 360 degrees. So we can see the scenario places right near the mountain and very far away. I think what Dogen is saying is about yesterday and today is like we see, we directly get into that mountain and see around. We can see the road or path we took to come to that mountain. And from far away, there are all different mountains.

[27:38]

So this is really one entire world. And what he's saying in here is yesterday or tomorrow, yesterday or the day before that, the entire past is seen from this top of the mountain. And the entire future is also already there. So each moment is like we are on the top of that mountain and seeing around. And this is the 10-direction world of this moment, including the path we have been walking. I think that is an image of Uji in Dogen. That is my understanding. So when he wrote his experience in China with Tendo Nyojo, he had 18 years before he wrote this Shohojiso.

[28:48]

His experience is part of that entire world of that moment. And so he can, I think, clearly see what happened at that time. So he wrote that experience, I think, as the scenario of this moment. That's why I try to translate using a present tense instead of a past tense. So this is really part of Dogen's, that moment of Dogen in 1243. That is what I wanted to add to this morning's talk. Any questions? Is it clear? I'm sorry. Okay, then I start to the final section.

[29:54]

Page 24, paragraph 51. Great Master Zhongyi, or Shuiz, of Xuansha Yuan, or Gensha Inn Temple, while teaching his disciples, heard a swallow chirping and said, the swallow is deeply expressing the true reality. and skillfully expounding the essence of the Dharma. The master descended from the platform. Later, a monk asked instruction, saying, I do not understand. The master said, get out of here.

[31:04]

No one believes you. This is the story and Dogen's comment. Upon hearing Xuanzhi's utterance, we may interpret that deeply expressing the true reality means that only the swallow was expressing the true reality in depth. Nevertheless, it is not the case. While teaching, Xuansha or Gensha heard the swallow chirping, It is neither that the swallow was deeply expressing the true reality, nor that Xuanzhi was deeply expressing the true reality. Because there is no such dualistic separation, this very vastness is itself deeply expressing the true reality.

[32:16]

For a while, we should carefully investigate this single story. There is the occasion of teaching. There is hearing the chirping of a swallow. There is an utterance of deeply expressing the truth. I'm sorry, this is true reality instead of form. skillfully expounding the essence of dharma. There is descending the platform. Later, there is a monk asking further instruction, saying, I don't understand. There is the master's saying, get out of here, no one believes you. although I don't understand, is not necessarily inquiring the true reality.

[33:22]

It is lifeblood of Buddha ancestor. This is the bones and marrow of the true Dharma I treasure. We should know that whether this monk gave the question saying, I can understand it or I can expand it, Shuen-sha, Gensha, had to say, get out of here. No one believes you. It is not that Xuanzhi said, get out of here, no one believes you, because the monk said that he did not understand, even though he actually understood it. Truly, it may be the third son of Chan family or the fourth son of Li family who is not this monk.

[34:24]

or it may be the true reality of all beings. At the time and place where the lifeblood of Buddha ancestors permeates, the study of the true reality is manifesting itself in this way. Within the assembly of King Iyan or Seijen, it has been already manifested. we should know that the true reality is the true lifeblood that has been authentically transmitted. All beings are only a Buddha together with a Buddha that is completely penetrated and thoroughly studied. Only a Buddha together with a Buddha is such wonderful characteristics of Buddhas.

[35:26]

So Dogen Zenji quote another koan story about Gensha Shuitsu. Gensha was the disciple of Seppo Washiufen, the person who said this entire world is the gate of revelation. Anyway, when this person, Gensha, was giving a Dharma discourse on the platform in the Dharma Hall, somehow he heard the swallow chirping. Then I think he quit talking and just said, the swallow is deeply expressing the true reality. and skillfully expounding the essence of the Dharma.

[36:34]

He just say so and get down from the platform. So that was the end of his discourse. Then later a monk asked instruction and said, I don't understand. So he asked more explanation. But the master Gensha said, get out of here. No one believes you. This is the story. And Dogen's comment. Upon hearing Gensha's utterance, Gensha Dataran means a swallow is deeply expressing the true reality. We may interpret that deeply expressing the true reality means that only the swallow was expressing the true reality in depth.

[37:44]

That means when Gensha says this, It means, you know, the swallow, the bird, is expressing the true reality of all beings. You know, and Gensha, the Zen master, heard, hear that expanding, the meaning of swallows chirping. So Swaro was expanding Dharma and Gensha hear the meaning of that expanding. And yet this monk didn't understand what the Swaro was saying. I think that is the understanding on the kind of a shallow understanding. But Dogen said that is not what this story means.

[38:45]

You have something to say? Okay. So he said it is not the case. While teaching, Gensha or Xuanzha heard the swallow chirping. It is neither that the swallow was expressing the true reality, nor the Xuanzha, the Zen master, was deeply expressing the true reality. The sound of swallow chirping is just chirping. It has no such deep meaning in that sound. And that is not what Gensha is saying. because there is no such dualistic separation. That means the swallow chirping and a gensha does a master who is hearing the sound of swallow.

[39:48]

There's no such separation. That is one... you know, dynamic total function. So somehow, swallow, you know, chirping, gensha, hearing. It's like Ryokan's poem, when flower open, butterflies visit. It's not that flowers bloom itself in order to invite the butterfly, to collect the butterfly. But flower is just blooming, and somehow butterflies come. And this is not butterflies' kind of personal... you know activity to get the nectar but somehow that is the life of butterfly just come to visit the flower and you know they support each other butterfly flower offer nectar and the butterfly helps the flower to spread the pollen so this is how

[41:05]

things are working in the world of interdependent origination. So, what Dogen is saying is this interaction, this total function is, that is, the very thusness, that happening, is itself deeply expressing the true reality. So, there's no person hearing and no singing of sorrows, but this is one how can I say, thing that is happening within this network, within this mountain, one scenery of the mountain. For a while, we should carefully investigate this single story. There is the occasion of teaching. There is hearing the chirping of a swallow.

[42:09]

There is an utterance of deeply expressing the true reality, skillfully expounding the essence of Dharma. There is descending the platform. Later, there is a monk asking further instructions, saying, I don't understand. There is the Master's saying, get out of here, no one believes you. Although I don't understand, it's not necessarily inquiring the true reality. That means this is not a question. But this monk's saying, I don't understand, is one expression of this true reality of all beings. It is lifeblood of Buddha ancestors. That means this saying, I don't understand, no understanding, according to Drogon, is the lifeblood of Buddha ancestors.

[43:11]

That means there's no one who understand it and nothing to be understood. You know, he picked up all the elements of this story and he said each and everything is really expressing the true reality of all beings. It's not a matter of only the swallow is discussing about reality. And only Gensha could hear that expanding. But all of these are all together expressing this reality of all beings. Please. So when Gensha said, no one believed you, is he, do you think, referring to, it would be like saying, you think you don't understand, but that's because you have a limited view of your own understanding. So no one will believe you mean you really understand even though you think you don't understand.

[44:18]

I think that is what Dogen pointed, but it's not true. I mean, our faith is. Dogen said later, it is not that Gensha said get out of here, no one believes you because the monk said that he did not understand even though he actually understood it. So this is exactly what you are saying. It's opposite. I mean, Dogen's interpretation is that, you know, the monk said, I don't believe it. That means there's no I and there's nothing to be believed. That is, I think, Dogen's interpretation of this saying, I don't believe it. I don't understand it. then what Gensha said is, Gensha, you know, is agree or... prove this monk's saying, I don't understand it.

[45:22]

That means there's no one who believe it. There's no person who have to believe it, and nothing that should have to be believed. So I don't understand, and no one believe it is the same thing. I think that is Dogen's interpretation. And I think, so this is my interpretation of Dogen's interpretation. So don't believe it. No one believe it, please. How is it that the swallow and the swallow saying, I don't understand, like how are the statements expressing the true reality of all beings? How? Yeah, like apparently they are, right? But how? Like how so? How? Like, I don't know. Are you saying that you don't understand?

[46:24]

Yeah, I guess so. Probably, I don't understand your question. Like, what about the swallow is deeply expressing the true reality and just hopefully expounding the essence of the Dharma? And what about I do not understand shows us the true reality of all beings? Maybe my mind doesn't work well. Are you not understanding my question? Maybe not. OK. Well, apparently these two statements here express the true reality of all being. How? Can you explain that to me, how they explain the true reality of all being? OK. What Dogen is talking is not the meaning of each sentence, but, you know, swallow is just chirping.

[47:27]

And that is itself reality of all, true reality. or in Dogen's expression, self-expression of true reality. And Gensha also, Gensha said, you know, the swallow is expressing, deeply expressing the true reality, is not Gensha's observation, but true reality is expressing itself through Gensha. And the monks I don't know is also of true reality through the monk. So this story is pointing to this teaching that Dogen keeps coming back to, that what, you know, kind of how things are now. Right, right, right. Yes, yes, I think so. Everything that is happening within that story is altogether expressing the true reality.

[48:31]

Okay, it just seems way more complicated. Please. When you say expressing true reality, could you also say creating true reality? Creating. What creating means? Making? Making means fabricating. And being? Embodying, creating. When you make something, create something. I think it depends on how to interpret each word to what is creating mean. Creating is something like fabricating a man-made thing.

[49:37]

I don't think so. But even the question or not understanding is an expression of true reality. Expressing in my mind means already exists. Oh. It wasn't there until then. Is it already there? No. It's not there. So it was created. True reality was created at the time the person is saying. That's interesting. Anyway, the original word in the story is dan. And jin Jin, dan.

[50:44]

Jin is deep, and dan is more like discussing, talking, using words, like a conversation or dialogue. But if you use the word creating as you said, I think that is right. I mean, we need to. But the swallow is creating natural reality. That means the early spring. And when swallows in Japan, when swallows came, swallows is migrating bird, came to Japan around June. That was the time of planting rice. So farmers are working on the rice paddies. and swallows may build their nest on the farming house underneath the roof, and they are chirping.

[51:57]

That is Japanese kind of typical scenery in that season. And that season was in the midst of rainy season. So we had a lot of rain. And therefore, many small insects come out. And those are the food for the swallows. So swallows chirping, to me, implies that entire scenery of that season. So Swallow's chirping is not the person just singing as an entitlement. But Swallow's chirping shows that entire scenery of the time that Swallow is coming

[53:01]

and charting and building nests and feeding their babies. That means insects are there. And at the same time, human being farmers are working on the rice paddy in the water and planting the rice plants. that entire, you know, things happening with this, you know, swallows chirping is the scenery, I mean, true reality of all beings. So not, I think, Feng Gensha is saying that swallow is deeply expressing or discussing true reality, not only that swallow as a person or as an individual being talking about true reality. but the, you know, condition that swarrow came. Swarrow came from south and, you know, there are insects for other food of swallows and there are houses, farmers' houses, and all that, you know, working, functioning.

[54:20]

Life is moving around within that season. That is true expression or truly deeply expressing true reality so unless we don't we cannot image that entire scenery with the swallow it's kind of difficult to understand what Densha is saying or what Dogen wants to say please into each element. Yeah, and the story, I think it's our logic that just assumes that there's going to be cause and effect. That one thing happens because another thing happens, and there's reason for it. So when he breaks it down into these elements, it changes that cause and effect. When I talked about the intersection, I think you called it dharma moment.

[55:23]

Dharma moment. Dharma position. Dharma position. Yeah, I think that is a good point. And also he picked up all those elements, I think, as each and every knot of things. That means reality is not one circle. without anything. But this is a network of interdependent origination. So just seeing the emptiness as an empty circle is not enough. As Dogen said in Genjo Koan, we should see each and every things that make up or create this entire scenery. In this case, the scenery of the rainy season. I'm wondering about this Dharma position.

[56:33]

So your Dharma position would be to be a Zen teacher and a Dogen scholar, and my Dharma position is to be a student here at Zen Center and chaplain at UCSF, living room 42, right? I have the books that I have on the shelf and stuff. What about responsibility? How does this sense of responsibility fit into that? I happen to have, I think, a pretty fortunate Dharma position, right? And it's not because of anything I've done, but rather because all these other things have formed my life the way it is. So is it just like... do other people just have a Dharma position of, say, a drug addict or an abusive police officer or what? I'm not sure about other people. But in my case, of course, I have one Dharma position.

[57:38]

And I'm not sure it's fortunate or not fortunate, but I appreciate. And I think I have some responsibility or something to do given from my teacher and given from this Sangha and given from my family and given from my Sangha. That is my responsibility and that is not easy thing to do. But you can only meet those responsibilities because of your Dharma position. Yes. Right? And let's say you were a really lousy Zen teacher and a horrible father and, you know, you came here and you just like... That's the true reality of me. You came here and you taught this and you just like plopped through the class and skipped every period of Zazen, you know.

[58:42]

Could we then say, well, you know, that's like okay because that's your Dharma position to be... I don't think it's okay. I think... Because we live in this network of interdependent origination, does that mean that whatever is going on is totally fine? I don't think so. We take Bodhisattva vow. and we receive Buddha's precept. That is our vow. So, Fath Dogen's talking is the scenery he can see in the path of bodhisattva practice. When we are irresponsible, we are against our own vow. So we make repentance, practice repentance, and try to return to the way we vow to go.

[59:51]

See, I don't know, because once again, the only reason I'm wearing this raga suit and other people aren't is because because of this network of kind of origination. So it's not like you have this network up there, and then there's this magical thing called the vows that you plug in, and then all of a sudden you have all this responsibility. I think vow is not a magical thing. But when we see that network, I think we cannot avoid to take that vow. That is my understanding. That means when we really see the network, our possible way of life is to live as a part of that network, in a healthy part of that network. I think that is our vow. It's not something mystical that is given from certain authority.

[60:59]

I think it's a very good question. I think there was a story where the student asked the teacher a question and the teacher said, that's a good question, now go away. It's very difficult. What you're asking is very difficult. There's no answer to what you're asking. But we keep practicing with it for a long, long time, the kind of question you're asking. There are many questions in what you're asking. But I had a question. Please. So I'm still caught, stuck on Xuan Shui. There is no explanation in the story, so we have to interpret.

[62:08]

And Dogen is one of the possible interpreters, and his interpretation is very unique, always. We can understand this story as, you know, Gensha could hear the swallows chirping as an expression of true reality, but this monk really didn't understand what Gensha is saying. But Gensha said, you know, reality is already in this monk's entire body. this monk is really living already in that reality. So, that's why even the monks said, I don't understand, but no one believed that this person don't understand.

[63:09]

That is one possible understanding, I think. That's what Dogen has said. Yes, no, so, right. So, according to Dogen's interpretation, What monk said, I don't understand, is an expression of monk's understanding. That means, you know, as before Dogen used this word understanding in two ways. One is usual understanding. And he, Dogen, used in Shoho Jiso, and I talked about that. E and Fue.

[64:11]

And E, this is the word the monk used, understand. So he said, not understand. And E is understand. Understand. who is not understand. Of course, as a common language, understand is good, and not understand means this person is not smart. He couldn't get it. That is a common usage of not understanding. So not understanding is negative expression. I'm sorry, but I don't understand. But probably Dogen's interpretation, what Bank said using not understand is like, as I said, when we learn how to drive, first we have to understand. the part of the car and how to operate it.

[65:22]

And when we understand and when we really, you know, get used to driving, then without understanding, we can drive without making mistakes. That is what hui, not understanding, means. So not understanding is embodying. I really embody that reality. That is one possible Dogen didn't say, so this is my interpretation of Dogen's, my guess of Dogen's interpretation. In that case, when the monk said, I don't understand, means this true reality of all beings is not a matter of understanding or not. But I am really part of it, and I'm living out that reality. That might be one interpretation.

[66:28]

Please. Pardon me? A is to meet, but this also means to understand, to know. To meet means to know. Let's see. For example, we use expressions such as a E toku. Toku is to gain. This means to understand and gain it. That means I must die. I completely understand. Mm-hmm.

[67:31]

Yeah. Yes. Please. I think there's another possibility, which is that the monk deliberately, because the monk said he did not understand, even though he deliberately misrepresented. I think that's what he's talking about. Yeah, that is, I think, more common understanding. I mean, no, it's not clear. The story is really simple, same as many Koan stories. So there are many possible interpretations. I think that is the purpose of Koan. The monk is being honest. I don't get it. But he's an embodiment of the true reality. So whether he gets it or not, no one's going to believe him because he embodies this truth in himself.

[68:41]

Or the monk is misleading. I don't think that's what he's misleading. I don't think so. Please. Right. So, you know, all these, you know, All this conversation, question, answer, and expression all together is true reality of all beings. I think that is what Dogen wants to say. And that is so true reality of all beings as Nagarjuna, not Nagarjuna, but Kumara Jiva said is itself nirvana.

[69:46]

So when Dogen discuss about true reality of all beings, he's discussing about nirvana, fatteji nirvana. And nirvana is just as things are. So we, nirvana means free from suffering. is to awaken to this reality of all beings and to live, how can I say, not following, but participating in this movement of reality of all beings. And that is our practice. So justice is it. Yes. So whatever way we interpret the meaning of these words, it's OK. I'm sorry. Oh, get out of here.

[70:48]

Tomorrow I will do that. Failure. So Dogen said, this monk's word, I don't understand, is the bones and marrow of the true Dharma I treasured. So I think Dogen interpreted this saying in a positive way. Not knowing is itself true reality. There's a koan that not knowing is most intimate. top of page 26. So this, you know, true Dharma eye treasury is Shobo Genzo. So he said this not knowing is the essence of this Shobo Genzo.

[71:52]

Shobo Genzo is the point or thing He wants to show us with these 90 or more writings. This not knowing might be the reality itself before, in Uchida Morawoshi's expression, being cooked by our thinking. being cooked by our thinking, being processed by our intellectual thinking or dualistic views, the reality as it is. And within this reality as it is, our thinking is included. That makes the situation complicated. So just close our mouth is not enough. We have to say something. Okay.

[72:57]

Little more. We should know that whether this monk gave the question saying, I can understand it or I can expand it. Gensha had to say, get out of here. No one believes you. So even the monks said, I can understand. I dare to get it. Gensha had to say, no one believes you. because it's not a matter of discussion or, how can I say, discussion using words. So no one believes, this reality of all beings doesn't believe what people are saying, what people are thinking. But reality is before our interpretation or our thinking or our judgment. But as a part of this reality of all beings, as I always say, our thinking and evaluation, judgment, fighting, argument, all are there.

[74:12]

So it is not that Densha said, get out of here, no one believe you, because the monk said that he did not understand even though he actually understood it. So he's trying to show the reality before any words or understanding or expression. And he said, this entire situation is expressing that reality. Truly, it may be the third son of Cheng family or the fourth son of Li family. This refers to Cheng and Li, a very common family name in China. And third son or fourth son means not important. i mean in chinese and japanese society not today the oldest son you know take over family business position and wealth so third and fourth son is not important so this third son of chan family or the fourth son of lee family means no one's

[75:43]

No one special. That means common people like us. Who is not this monk? Or it may be the true reality of all beings. You know, each and everything, nothing special beings are true reality of all beings. At the time and place where the lifeblood of Buddha ancestor permeates That means, of course, this network of interdependent origination. The study of the true reality is manifesting itself in this way. In this way means, how can I say, trying to express, understand and express it, express the reality beyond wording. beyond understanding, beyond discrimination, using our discrimination.

[76:50]

That is the way we study and practice the Dharma. Somehow we have to use our discrimination, our discriminating mind, in order to understand and explain or express this reality beyond thinking. So again, here, thinking and not thinking and beyond thinking are working together. This thinking and not thinking are part of beyond thinking. So again, there's three things. And two things opposite are working as one is called beyond thinking. so that is this is the same as three truths in ten light teaching that is truth of provision and emptiness and middle so that is the same thing so we can see the reality from the angle of thinking

[78:02]

and from the angle of not thinking, and from the angle of beyond thinking. You know, all those people are trying to say something from different perspective. And finally Dōgen said, within the assembly of Queen Yuan, Queen Yuan is Seigen. Seigen is a disciple of sixth ancestor Huinan and one of the ancestors in our lineage, in Dōgen's lineage. And both Seppo and Gensha is from Seigen's lineage. Probably, I think that is what Dogen meant. Within the assembly of Seigen, it has been already manifested.

[79:05]

So the question is what about Nangakutsu lineage? This is a question from people in Rinzai tradition. So even though Dogen Zenji didn't use even the word Soto-shu or Zen-shu, but still he has some kind of a... from... people in Rinzai tradition, Dogen still has some clinging to his own lineage. So he's not completely free from that kind of idea. And I think that is true. He is trying to establish his own practice at his own monastery. So he needs some identity, even though he knows that identity is a kind of a fiction, I think. OK, final paragraph.

[80:11]

We should know that the true reality is the true lifeblood that has been authentically transmitted. So this is really important in Dogen's lineage. And all beings are only a Buddha together with a Buddha. That is completely penetrated and fully studied. This is exactly the same with what he said in the very beginning of this writing. And only a Buddha together with a Buddha, or yuibutsu-yobutsu, is such a wonderful characteristics of Buddhas. I'm not sure this is a good translation or not. But what he said is, nyose, soko, or sogo.

[81:15]

Yuibutsu-yobutsu, only Buddha together with a Buddha, is nyose. So go. So go or so call. Either is possible. No other is, of course, such or thusness. And so go refers to You know, Buddha has 32 characteristics or marks or forms, and also 80, 80 what? Minor marks. 32 is called Sanju Ni So. And 80 minor marks is called ko, ,, ko.

[82:27]

So and ko refer to these characteristic or marks of Buddhas. So what he's saying is ,, only Buddha together with Buddha is all so-and-so characteristics or forms or marks of Nyoze. So I think, as Dogen said before, is each and every beings coming and going, arising and perishing. that is only Buddha, and also together with Buddha. And all Buddhas, what, Marx, has thusness, was. Only put together with a Buddha. Nyose is such.

[83:41]

Yeah. So, literally, yuibutsu-yobutsu is such, so go. Or so go as suchness or thusness. Wonderful marks. Yeah, something like that. Marks of suchness. Oh, that's good. So, only Buddha and together with Buddha is or are marks of suchness. Wonderful marks of suchness. Oh, that's good. Thank you. Well, that's the end of this chapter. I really appreciate your patience. Thank you very much.

[84:37]

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