This morning, at the end of this morning class, I talked on the Shobo Genzo Uji, or Being-Time. In fact, Dogen is writing in Shobo Jisso and Uji are the same reality. So, I think Uji, or Being-Time, is often considered as an expression of Dogen's philosophical insight and often compared with Western philosophy, such as Heidegger's identity about time and being. But, I think Fat Dogen wrote in Uji is very concrete, actual way all beings are as our life, within our life.

[01:02]

And, because I didn't have much time, I didn't really explain. So, I'd like to add one thing, or explain a little more about one sentence from Uji and go to the final part of Shobo Jisso. The sentence is, Nonetheless, the nature of the truth of this, yesterday and today, lies in the time when you go directly into the mountains and look at the myriad peaks around you. Hence, there is no passing away. So, he's talking about time, yesterday and today. And, yesterday and today is the same as today and tomorrow.

[02:07]

Lies in the time when you go directly into the mountains. Somehow, he put this word, going directly into the mountains, without much explanation. So, I need to explain what this mountain is. And, this mountain, the same mountain as I said to Evan's question, the mountain appeared in Sushi's poem about Mount Rue. So, I'd like to talk a little bit about this poem on Mount Rue. And, Wanshi and Dogen's poem. And, also, last year, we studied Shobo Genzo Uji at the Genzo-e Dharma Field Dance Center in Minneapolis.

[03:14]

And, I introduced these three poems on Mount Rue. And, they added one more poem following the same meaning by Katagiri Roshi. So, I'd like to introduce Katagiri Roshi's poem also. The original poem is by Sushi. Sushi is a very famous Chinese poet in the 11th century. So-shoku in Japanese. I hope this is right. I'm not sure. He lived in the 11th century. So, about the same time as Wanshi, right?

[04:18]

No, Wanshi is in the 11th century. 11th? He is 11th. Wanshi is 12th. Dogen is 13th. Sushi's poem on Mount Rue is as follows. Regard it from one side, an entire range. From another, a single peak. Far, near, high, low. All its parts different from the others. If the true face of Mount Rue cannot be known, it is because the one looking at it is standing in its midst. Shall I read again?

[05:22]

Regarding from one side, an entire range. From another, a single peak. Far, near, high, low. All its parts different from the others. If the true face of Mount Rue cannot be known, it is because the one looking at it is standing in its midst. Sushi's another poem, Dogen quote, is the poem about the sound of a valley stream and the colors of mountains. He quotes this in Shobo Genzo Keisei Sanshoku, or Sound of Valley Stream and Colors of Mountains. All its parts.

[06:28]

All its parts. So, he's walking in the mountains, and he sees Mount Rue. When he sees the mountain from one point, it is like a part of the range. That means there's no independent one mountain, but it's part of many mountains, like a wave. But when he sees the same mountain from another side, Mount Rue is really a single peak. So, this means one and same mountain is from one side, it's an independent single peak. From another side, it's just simply a part of the range.

[07:29]

Mount Hiei is the same. Antaiji is located in the west part of Kyoto, and Mount Hiei is the eastern part of Kyoto. So, every day I could see Mount Hiei from Antaiji. And from the side of Kyoto, Mount Hiei is really a single peak. But when we see the same mountain from the other side, the side of Lake Biwa, then we cannot see which is that mountain, because it's really a part of the mountains. So, I think this is like when we study physics, about light, when we observe light from one way, it's a particle. But when we observe the same light from other way, it's a wave.

[08:33]

A particle means it's independent, and wave means there's no such independent thing. So, I think he's describing the same thing, you know, independence and interdependence. I think it's very interesting. So, far, near, high, low, all its parts, different from the others. And next line is, if the true face, this true face is a Zen word, true face of Mount Ryu, because Mount Ryu seems very different each time, from each place. Then, what is the true face of Mount Ryu? That is a koan, you know. In Zen, we have to, we are asked to see the true face of ourselves. And we are always changing,

[09:35]

we are independent, impermanent, so we are always changing, depending upon the conditions. Then, what is the true face of this person? That is one of the very important koans in Zen, and that is what he is saying here. And he said, if the true face of Mount Ryu cannot be known, this is a translation from one book, translated by an American scholar, but I'm not, I, I don't agree with this translation. I don't think this is an if-clause to both possible reading, because there is no if in the original. So this is possible, but my way of reading is, this is not if-clause, but

[10:36]

the true face of Mount Ryu cannot be known. I think this is a statement, because the one looking at it is standing in its midst. So if this is an if-clause, that means if he gets out of the mountain, then he can see the mountain objectively from outside. And it seems that is the interpretation of this poem in Rinzai tradition. Because he is still in the mountain, so he cannot see the true face. But if he gets out of it, he can see the true face of the mountain. But my understanding is it's not possible, and it doesn't need to. We don't need to see the true face of mountains. Because there is no true face of mountains besides, you know, each and every way it seems.

[11:39]

So it's depending upon the relation between the person and the person's position on the mountain. Each, so each, how do you call, each look, each appearance is a true face. There's no true face beside those changing faces. I think that is how I understand this poem. So this is Sushi's poem about Mount Rue. And this Mount Rue, I think, is this, you know, entire network of interdependent origination in which we are coming and going. And depending upon where we are, this mountain looks very different. So we want to know what is the true face of this mountain.

[12:43]

But we cannot see. So we have a problem. But in Eihei Koroku, Koroku. Koroku is a collection of Dogen Zenji's formal discourses and also his Chinese poems. And, let's see, Volume 9, Eihei Koroku is a big book. It has 10 volumes. And Volume 9 is a collection of 90 koans. And Dogen composed poems or verses on each of 90 poems. So it's like a Shouyou Roku or Hekigan Roku. The difference is he didn't make any comments.

[13:47]

He just wrote, composed the poems or verses on each koans. And 20, I think 25th, 4 or 5, 20, I think 25, he, Dogen Zenji, quote Wanshi's poem following Susie's poem on Mount Rue. And Dogen himself composed his own poem. So I'd like to introduce from Eihei Koroku Wanshi's and Dogen's poem following Susie's poem on Mount Rue. Wanshi, so this is Taigen and my translation. Wanshi's poem is With coming and going A person in the mountains

[14:48]

Pretty clear, you know. Wanshi is writing a poem following Susie's poem. With coming and going A person in the mountains Understandings that Blue mountains are his body The blue mountains are the body And the body is the self So where can one Place the senses And their objects? So in What Wanshi is saying is This is a mountain And we are coming and going With this mountain And for him To see true face of Mount Rue or not Is not a matter Because it's not possible But his insight is

[15:50]

This entire mountain is his body The person who is coming and going's body That means the person and this entire mountain is one So the blue mountains are the body And he said the body is the self So this entire network of interdependent origination Is the person's body And therefore that is person's self So where can one place The senses and their objects? That means We are some place in here And we think we are seeing The Mount Rue as an object So we see the object Using our sense organs And Mount Rue is object But what Wanshi is saying is

[16:52]

There is no place we can Place senses and their object That means sense and their object Is working together as one Because person in the mountain And the mountain are one thing This is Wanshi's poem So to see the true face of Mount Rue or not Is not important But to live together, to walk together with mountain Is important In Wanshi's poem And Dogen's poem is as follows A person in the mountains Should love the mountains Love in Chinese and Japanese is Ai Is not often used in a positive meaning

[17:53]

Love is another word of attachment But here Dogen uses this word Ai or love In a positive meaning That means to be intimate and one with this mountain So a person in the mountains should love the mountains With going and coming The mountains are his body So Dogen agrees Dogen agrees with Wanshi This entire mountain is itself his body And the mountains are the body But Dogen said But the body is not the self That's the difference between Wanshi and Dogen Because if we think this is the self Then this looks, sounds like an art man

[18:55]

Or a graph man So this, even though I draw a circle There is no such circle Circle looks like a boundary Between inside and outside But there is no such circle If we call this is one closed circle Then we can, maybe we can call this a self But there is no, this circle is not really there But just a network So there is no self So there is no self This is kind of an important point Even some Zen teachers Use the expression big self Small self and big self And we should forget the small self But we should see and express the big self

[19:55]

And according to Dogen There is no such thing as big self That is a very important point to understand Dogen There is no small self exists And no big self exists Only this dynamic movement as a total function is there Everything is coming and going That's all And finally he said So where can one find any senses or other Or their object So there is no such separation between sense organ and their object So this is one total dynamic function That's all This is Dogen's poem And Katagiri Roshi's poem is as follows I think he made this poem following Dogen's poem

[20:59]

Katagiri Roshi's poem is To love the mountains To love the mountains Is not to know about mountains But to climb mountains And to live and die continuously with them Then the mountains themselves speak to us frankly About the infinite world of the mountains Which human beings otherwise never know I read it again To love the mountains Is not to know about mountains But to climb mountains And to live and die continuously with them

[22:08]

Then the mountains themselves speak to us frankly About the infinite world of the mountains Which human beings otherwise never know So I leave this copy so you can make a photocopy if you want to Have a copy Anyway, I think these are all connected And In English From all those poems, different poems, they have the book in English? Sushi's poem is from one book entitled Mount Rue Revisited

[23:13]

And next two, Wanshi's and Dogen's is from Extensive record of Ehei Dogen, Ehei Koroku And Katagiri Roshi's is from, I don't know where Maybe from Udonbara, the magazine from MCMC Anyway, I first talked on this poem by Sushi, I think at Green Gulch Right before I had a first Genzoe here On Mountains and Waters Sutra As a kind of introduction of Mountains and Waters Sutra And I think it's really closely connected And after that, for Genzoe, I studied

[24:14]

Keisei Sanshoku Sound of Valley Stream and Colors of Mountains And And Taihai Tokuzui, Making Prostration and Gaining the Mellow And Showa Kumakusa Not Doing Any Evil, Anything Evil And Uji Yeah, Gyoji, Gyoji is different But those chapters of Shobo Genzo Are written in the year 1240 In the same year And in all those chapters of Shobo Genzo He quotes the expression from this poem A person in the mountains

[25:18]

And in Uji, this sentence in Uji is one of them He just said, we should go directly into the mountains So this mountain is this mountain The mountain Sushi, Wanshi, Dogen and Katagiri Yoshi are talking You know, this mountain And within this mountain Let's see Once a year I have a walking retreat in North Carolina At a small town called Hot Spring There's a small Hot Spring And we walk on the Appalachian Trail And We have the walking retreat in October Beginning, second week of October It's the most beautiful time of the year

[26:19]

The colors of mountains are really beautiful And during that retreat we visit a place named Max Patch Do you know? It's a small mountain It's not so high mountains And it's round And there's no trees on the mountains So when we are at the top of that mountain We can really see 360 degrees So we can see the scenery of places right near the mountain And very far away I think what Dogen is saying is about yesterday and today It's like we directly get into that mountain and see around

[27:24]

We can see the road or path we took to come to that mountain And from far away there are all different mountains So this is really one entire world And what he's saying in here is Yesterday or tomorrow, yesterday or the day before that The whole entire past is seen from this top of the mountain And the entire future is also already there So each moment is like we are on the top of that mountain and seeing around And this is the ten direction world of this moment Including the path we have been walking

[28:25]

I think that is the image of Uji in Dogen That is my understanding So when he wrote his experience in China with Tenro Nyojo He had 18 years before he wrote this Shoho Jisso His experience is part of that entire world of that moment And so he can clearly see what happened at that time So he wrote that experience as the scenario of this moment That's why I tried to translate using a present tense instead of a past tense So this is really part of that moment of Dogen in 1243

[29:33]

Well, that is what I wanted to add to this morning's talk Any questions? Is it clear? I'm sorry Okay, then I start to the final section Page 24, Paragraph 51 Great Master Zongyi or Shuiz of Xuansha Yuan or Gensha Yin Temple While teaching his disciples heard a swallow chirping and said The swallow is deeply expressing the true reality

[30:38]

And skillfully expanding the essence of the Dharma The master descended from the platform Later a monk asked instruction saying I do not understand The master said, get out of here, no one believes you This is the story And Dogen's comment Upon hearing Xuansha's utterance We may interpret that deeply expressing the true reality Means that only the swallow was expressing the true reality in depth Nevertheless it is not the case While teaching Xuansha or Gensha heard the swallow chirping

[31:44]

It is neither that the swallow was deeply expressing the true reality Nor that Xuansha was deeply expressing the true reality Because there is no such dualistic separation This very vastness is itself deeply expressing the true reality For a while we should carefully investigate this single story There is the occasion of teaching There is hearing the chirping of a swallow There is unutterance of deeply expressing the true reality Instead of form Skillfully expanding the essence of Dharma

[32:52]

There is descending the platform Later there is a monk asking further instruction saying I don't understand There is the master's saying Get out of here, no one believes you Although I don't understand is not necessarily inquiring the true reality It is life blood of Buddha ancestor This is the bones and marrow of the true Dharma I treasure We should know that whether this monk gave the question saying I can understand it or I can expand it Xuansha, Gensha had to say Get out of here, no one believes you

[33:54]

It is not that Xuansha said Get out of here, no one believes you Because the monk said that he did not understand Even though he actually understood it Truly it may be the third son of Chan family Or the fourth son of Li family Who is not this monk Or it may be the true reality of all beings At the time and place where the life blood of Buddha ancestors permeates The study of the true reality is manifesting itself in this way Within the assembly of King Yang or Seigen It has been already manifested We should know that the true reality is the true life blood

[35:01]

That has been authentically transmitted All beings are only a Buddha together with a Buddha That is completely penetrated and thoroughly studied Only a Buddha together with a Buddha is such a wonderful characteristics of Buddhas So he, Dogen Zenji, quote another koan story about Gensha Shuitsu Gensha was the disciple of Seppo Washufen The person who said this entire world is the gate of revelation Anyway, when this person Gensha was giving a Dharma discourse on the platform in the Dharma hall

[36:06]

Somehow he hear the swallow chirping Then, I think he quit talking And just said the swallow is deeply expressing the true reality And skillfully expounding the essence of the Dharma He just said so and get down from the platform So that was the end of his discourse Then, later a monk asked instruction and said, I don't understand So he asked more explanation But the master Gensha said, get out of here

[37:08]

No one believes you This is the story And Dogen commented Upon hearing Gensha's utterance Gensha's utterance means a swallow is deeply expressing the true reality We may interpret that Deeply expressing the true reality means that only the swallow was expressing the true reality in depth That means, when Gensha says this It means, you know, the swallow, the bird is expressing the true reality of all beings You know, and Gensha, the Zen master, heard here that expanding The meaning of the swallow's chirping

[38:14]

So the swallow was expanding the Dharma And Gensha heard the meaning of that expanding And yet this monk didn't understand what the swallow was saying I think that is, you know, understanding on the kind of a shallow understanding But Dogen said that is not what this story means You have something to say? OK So he said, it is not the case While teaching, Gensha or Shuensha heard the swallow chirping It is neither that the swallow was expressing the true reality Nor the Shuensha, the Zen master, was deeply expressing the true reality So the sound of the swallow chirping is just chirping

[39:20]

It has no such deep meaning in that sound And that is not what Gensha is saying Dogen said, because there is no such dualistic separation That means, the swallow chirping and Gensha, the Zen master, who is hearing the sound of the swallow There is no such separation That is one, you know, dynamic total function So, somehow, the swallow chirping, Gensha hearing It's like Ryokan's poem When flowers open, butterflies visit It's not that flowers bloom itself in order to invite the butterfly

[40:21]

To collect the butterfly But flowers are just blooming And somehow, butterflies come And this is not butterflies' kind of personal activity to get the nectar But somehow, that is the life of butterfly Just come to visit the flower And they support each other The flower offers nectar, and the butterfly helps the flower to spread the pollen So this is how things are working in the world of interdependent origination So, what Dogen is saying is, this interaction, this total function is

[41:22]

That is, the very vastness, that happening Is itself deeply expressing the true reality So, there is no person hearing, and no singing of swallows But this is one, how can I say, thing that is happening within this network Within this mountain, one scenery of the mountain For a while, we should carefully investigate this single story There is the occasion of teaching There is hearing the chirping of a swallow There is an utterance of deeply expressing the true reality Skillfully expanding the essence of Dharma There is descending the platform Later, there is a monk, asking further instructions, saying, I don't understand

[42:31]

There is the master's saying, get out of here, no one believes you Although, I don't understand is not necessarily inquiring the true reality That means, this is not a question This monk saying, I don't understand, is one expression of this true reality of all beings It is lifeblood of Buddha ancestors That means, this saying, I don't understand, no understanding According to them, is the lifeblood of Buddha ancestors That means, there is no one who understands it And nothing to be understood You know, he picked up all the elements of this story And he said, each and everything is really expressing the true reality of all beings It's not a matter of only the swallow is discussing about reality

[43:38]

And only Gensha could hear that expanding But all of these are all together expressing this reality of all beings Please So when Gensha says, no one believes you Is he, do you think, referring to It would be like saying, you think you don't understand But that's because you have a limited view of your own understanding So, no one will believe you mean, you really understand even though you think you don't understand I think that is what Dogen pointed, that is not true I mean, here it is Dogen said later, it is not that Gensha said, get out of here, no one believes you Because the monk said that he did not understand even though he actually understood it So this is exactly what you are saying

[44:42]

It's opposite I mean, Dogen's interpretation is that, you know, the monk said, I don't believe it That means there is no I and there is nothing to be believed That is, I think, Dogen's interpretation of this saying, I don't believe it, I don't understand it Then, what Gensha said is, Gensha, you know, is agreeing to prove this monk's saying, I don't understand it That means there is no one who believes it There is no person who has to believe it And nothing that should have to be believed So, I don't understand and no one believes the same thing I think that is Dogen's interpretation

[45:44]

And I think, so this is my interpretation of Dogen's interpretation So don't believe it No one believe it, please How is it that the swallow and this fellow saying, I don't understand How are those statements expressing the true reality of all beings? How? Apparently they are, right? But how? How? Probably I don't understand your question What about the swallow is deeply expressing the true reality and skillfully expounding the essence of the Dharma And what about I do not understand shows us the true reality of all beings? Maybe my mind doesn't work well Are you not understanding my question?

[46:50]

Maybe not Well, apparently these two statements here express the true reality of all beings How? Can you explain that to me? How they explain the true reality of all beings? Okay What Dogen is talking is not the meaning of each sentence But, you know, swallow is just chirping And that is itself reality of all, true reality Or in Dogen's expression, self-expression of true reality And Gensha also, Gensha said, you know, the swallow is expressing, deeply expressing the true reality This is not Gensha's observation, but true reality is expressing itself through Gensha

[48:00]

And I don't, the monk's, I don't know, is also expression of true reality through the monk So this story is pointing to this teaching that Dogen keeps coming back to, that what, you know, kind of how things are now Right, right Right Yes, yes, I think so Everything that is happening within that story is altogether expressing the true reality Please Creating Creating What creating means? Making means fabricating

[49:00]

Embodying Creating I think it depends on how to interpret each word to what is creating mean Creating is something to, like fabricating, man-made thing, I don't think so But this, even the question, or not understanding, is an expression of true reality Expressing, in my mind, means it already exists And it already exists and he sort of sees it and talks about it Creating it means that it comes, brings it into being

[50:06]

It's not, it wasn't there until then Is it already there? No It's not there, so it was created, true reality was created at the time the person is saying That's interesting Anyway, the original word in the story is done Done And Jin Jin Done Jin is deep And done is more like discussing, talking, using words, like a conversation or dialogue But if you use the word creating, as you said, I think that is right I mean, we need to, but the swallow is creating, you know, the true reality

[51:13]

That means the early spring And when swallows, in Japan, when swallows came, swallows is migrating bird Came to Japan around June That was the time of planting rice, so farmers are working on the rice paddies And swallows may build their nest on the farming house underneath the roof And they are chirping That is Japanese kind of typical scenery in that season And that season was in the midst of rainy season So we had a lot of rain, and therefore many small insects come up

[52:21]

And those are the food for the swallows So swallows chirping, to me, implies the entire scenery of that season So swallows chirping is not the person just singing for entertainment But swallows chirping means, shows the entire scenery of the time Swallows is coming and chirping and building nest and feeding their babies That means insects are there And at the same time, farmers are working on the rice paddies in the water And planting their rice plants

[53:23]

That entire, you know, things happening with this, you know, swallows chirping Is the scenery, I mean, true reality of all beings So not, I think, Gensha is saying that swallows is deeply expressing or discussing true reality Not only that swallow as a person or as an individual being talking about true reality But the, you know, condition that swallows came Swallows came from south And, you know, there are insects as a food of swallows And there are houses, farmers' houses And all that, you know, working, functioning Life is moving around within that season

[54:24]

That is true expression or deeply expressing true reality So unless we don't, we cannot image that entire scenery with the swallow It's kind of difficult to understand what Gensha is saying or what Dogen wants to say Please It's quite interesting because it breaks down the story into Into each element Yeah, and the story, I think it's our logic to just assume that there's going to be a cause and effect That one thing happens because another thing happens and there's a reason for it So when he breaks it down into these elements, it changes that cause and effect Mm Dharma movement Dharma position

[55:27]

Yeah, I think that is a good point And also he, you know, picked up all those elements I think as, you know, each and every note of things That means reality is not one circle without anything But this is a network of interdependent origination So just seeing the emptiness as an empty circle is not enough As Dogen said in Genjo-Koan We should see each and every thing that make up or create this entire scenery In this case, scenery of rainy season Shagasan, I'm wondering about this Dharma position

[56:33]

So like, your Dharma position would be to be a Zen teacher and a Dogen scholar My Dharma position is to be a student here at the Zen Center And a chaplain at UCSF Live in room 42, right? Have the books that I have on the shelf and stuff So, what about responsibility? How does a sense of responsibility fit into that? I mean, I happen to have a pretty fortunate Dharma position, right? And it's not because of anything I've done But rather because all these other things have formed my life the way it is So is it just like, do other people just have a Dharma position of, say, like A drug addict or an abusive police officer, or what? I'm not sure About other people But in my case, of course I have one Dharma position

[57:38]

And I'm not sure it's fortunate or not fortunate But I appreciate it And I think I have some responsibility or something to do Given from my teacher And given from this Sangha And given from my family And given from my Sangha That is my responsibility And that is not an easy thing to do Right, but you can only meet those responsibilities because of your Dharma position Yes Let's say you were a really lousy Zen teacher and a horrible father And you came here and you just That is the true reality of me You came here and you taught this And you just flubbed through the class and skipped every period of Zazen

[58:41]

Could we then say, well, that's okay because that's your Dharma position? I don't think it's never okay I think I don't think so We take Bodhisattva vow And we receive Buddha's precept That is our vow So, what Dogen is talking about is The scenery he can see in the path of Bodhisattva practice So When we are irresponsible We are against our own vow So we make repentance

[59:44]

Practice repentance and try to return to the way We vow to go See, I don't know because Once again, the only reason I'm wearing this ragsuit And other people aren't is because Because of this network of Origination So it's not like You have this network up there And then there's this magical thing called the vows Plug in and then all of a sudden you have all this responsibility I think vow is not a magical thing But when we see that network I think we cannot avoid to take that vow That is my understanding That means when we really see the network Our, you know, possible way of life is to

[60:46]

Live as a part of that network In a healthy part of that network I think that is our vow It's not something, you know, mystical That is given from certain authority Oh yes Please I think it's a very good question I think there was a story Where the student asks the teacher a question And the teacher says That's a good question, now go away Like Geshe-la Which I think means This is very difficult What you're asking is very difficult There's no answer to what you're asking But we can keep practicing with it For a long long time That's the kind of question you're asking There are many questions in what you're asking But I have a question

[61:47]

Please So I'm still caught, stuck on Xuanzi There is no explanation in the story So we have to interpret And Dogen is one of the possible interpreters And his interpretation is very unique, always We can understand this story As, you know Gensha could hear the swallows chirping As an expression of true reality But this monk really didn't Understand what Gensha is saying But Gensha said You know, reality is already in this monk's

[62:52]

You know, entire body This monk is really living already in that reality So That's why even the monk Said, I don't understand But no one believes that this person doesn't understand That is one possible understanding, I think Yes, no, that's so Right So, according to Dogen's interpretation That monk said, I don't understand Is an expression of monk's understanding That means, you know As a Before Dogen used this word, understanding In two ways One is usual Dogen used it in Shohoji

[64:04]

And I talked about that E and Fue Understand And A, this is the word the monk used Understand, so he said not understand And A is understand Fue is not understand Of course, as a common language Understand is good And not understand means This person is not smart He couldn't get it That is a common usage of not understanding So not understanding is negative expression I'm sorry, but I don't understand But probably Dogen's interpretation

[65:06]

Monk said, using not understand Is like, as I said When we learn how to drive First we have to understand The part of the car and how to operate it And when we understand And when we really get used to driving Then without understanding we can drive Without making mistakes That is Fue Not understanding means So not understanding is embodying I really embody that reality That is one possible Dogen didn't say So this is my interpretation of Dogen's My guess of Dogen's interpretation So in that case When the monk said, I don't understand

[66:08]

Means this true reality of all beings Is not a matter of understanding or not But I am really part of it And I'm living out that reality That might be one interpretation Please Yes? Pardon me? E? E is to meet But this also means to understand, to know To meet means to know Let's see I use expressions such as E E toku Toku is to gain

[67:13]

This means to understand and gain it That means I master it I completely understand E? Yeah Yes Please E? E? Yeah, that is, I think, more common understanding I mean No, it's not clear The story is really simple Same as, you know, many koan stories

[68:16]

So there are many possible interpretations I think that is the purpose of the koan Right E? E? E? I don't think so Please E? It's a very similar thing We can't really know if the monk understood or not And when he says, no one believes you It's really kind of another way of saying That's a good question But before, he says, get out of here You've got to work on it Right So, you know, all these, you know All these conversation, question, answer

[69:23]

And expression All together is true reality of all beings I think that is what Dogen wants to say And that is So true reality of all beings As Nagarjuna, not Nagarjuna, but Kumarajiva said is itself Nirvana So when Dogen discuss about true reality of all beings He's discussing about Nirvana, what is Nirvana And Nirvana is just as things are So we Nirvana means free from suffering Is to awaken to this reality of all beings And to live How can I say Not following, but Participating in this, you know Movement of reality of all beings And that is our practice

[70:24]

So Just this is it Yes So whatever way we interpret the meaning of these words It's okay I'm sorry Get out of here Tomorrow I'll be back Okay Here we are So Dogen said this monk's word I don't understand Is the bones and marrow of the true Dharma I treasure So I think he Dogen interpreted this saying in a positive way Not knowing is itself true reality There's a koan that not knowing is most intimate

[71:31]

Top of page 26 So this, you know True Dharma I treasure is Shobo Genzo So he said this not knowing is The essence of this Shobo Genzo Shobo Genzo is the point or thing He wants to show us You know, with these 90 or more writings So not knowing might be The reality itself before Uchiyama Roshi's expression being cooked by our thinking Being cooked by our thinking Being processed by our intellectual thinking Or dualistic views The reality as it is And within this reality as it is

[72:38]

Our thinking is included That makes the situation complicated So just close our mouth is not enough We have to say something Little more We should know that whether this monk gave the question saying I can understand it or I can expand it Gensha had to say Get out of here No one believes you So even the monk said I can understand I really get it Gensha had to say No one believes you Because it's not a matter of discussion How can I say Discussion using words

[73:38]

So no one believes you This reality of all beings doesn't believe What people are saying What people are thinking But reality is Before our interpretation Or our thinking Or our judgment But as a part of this reality of all beings As I always say Our thinking, evaluation, judgment, fighting, argument All are there So it is not that Gensha said Get out of here No one believes you Because the monk said That he did not understand Even though he actually understood it So he tried to show the reality before any words Or understanding

[74:40]

Or expression And he said This entire situation is expressing that reality Truly It may be the third son of Chong family Or the fourth son of Li family This refers to Chang and Li are very common family names in China And third son or fourth son means not important In Chinese and Japanese society Not today The oldest son Take over family, business, position and wealth So third and fourth son Is not important So this third son of Chang family Or the fourth son of Li family means

[75:42]

No one special That means common people like us Who is not this monk Or it may be the true reality of all beings You know Each and everything, nothing special beings True reality of all beings At the time and place Where the lifeblood of the ancestor permeates That means of course this network of interdependent origination The study of the true reality is manifesting itself in this way In this way means How can I say Trying to express, understand and express it Express the reality beyond wording Beyond understanding, beyond discrimination

[76:46]

Using our discrimination That is the way we study and practice the Dharma Somehow we have to use our discrimination Our discriminating mind In order to understand and explain or express this reality beyond thinking So again here thinking and beyond thinking And not thinking And beyond thinking are working together This thinking and not thinking are part of beyond thinking So again there are three things And two things opposite are working as one It is called beyond thinking So this is the same as three truths in Ten Rites Teaching That is truth of provision and emptiness and middle

[77:49]

So that is the same thing So we can see the reality from the angle of thinking And from the angle of not thinking And from the angle of beyond thinking You know, all those people are trying to say something from different perspective And finally Dogen said Within the assembly of Queen Iwan Queen Iwan is Seigen Seigen is a disciple of Sixth Ancestor Huinan And one of the ancestors in our lineage Dogen's lineage And both Seppo and Gensha is from Seigen's lineage

[78:53]

Probably I think that is what Dogen meant Within the assembly of Seigen It has been already manifested So the question is what about Nangaku's lineage This is a question from people in Rinzai tradition So even though Dogen Zenji Didn't use even the word Soto Shu or Zen Shu But still he has some kind of From people in Rinzai tradition Dogen still has some clinging to his own lineage So he is not completely free from that kind of idea And I think that is true He is trying to establish his own practice At his own monastery

[79:56]

So he needs some identity Even though he knows that identity is a kind of a fiction I think OK, final paragraph We should know that the true reality is the true lifeblood That has been authentically transmitted So this true shoho-jiso is really important In Dogen's lineage And all beings are only a Buddha Together with a Buddha That is completely penetrated and thoroughly studied This is exactly the same as what he said in the very beginning of this writing And only a Buddha together with a Buddha

[80:59]

Yoi-butsu-yo-butsu is such a wonderful characteristic of Buddhas I'm not sure this is a good translation or not But what he said is Nyoze-so-ko-wa-so-go Yoi-butsu-yo-butsu, only Buddha together with a Buddha Is Nyoze-so-go So-go So-go-wa-so-ko Either is possible Nyoze is, of course, such or thusness And so-go refers to Buddha has 32 characteristics or marks or forms

[82:02]

And also 80 80 what? Minor marks 32 is called san-ju-ni-so And 80 minor marks is called ko Hachi-ju-shu-ko So, so and ko refer to these characteristics or marks of Buddhas So, what he is saying is Yoi-butsu-yo-butsu, only Buddha together with a Buddha Is all so-and-so characteristics or forms or marks of Nyoze So, Yoi-butsu-yo-butsu, I think, as Dogen said before Is each and every being Coming and going Arising and perishing

[83:04]

I think that is only Buddha and also together with Buddha And all Buddhas marks as thusness or such Nyoze is... Nyoze is such Such So, literally, Yoi-butsu-yo-butsu is such so-go Or so-go as suchness or thusness Suchness of Buddha's wonderful marks Suchness of Buddha's wonderful marks or Wonderful marks, yes, something like that Marks of suchness

[84:07]

That's good So, Yoi-butsu-yo-butsu, only Buddha and together with Buddha Is or are Marks of suchness Wonderful marks of suchness That's good, thank you Well, that's the end of this chapter I really appreciate your patience Thank you very much

[84:36]

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