and he made comments on this person's statement. Zen Master Ing-an Tang-hyua, in Japanese pronunciation, O-an Don-ge, once instructed the Honorable Monk Da-de-hyuyi, saying, If you wish to understand easily, simply face a rising mind and moving thought throughout 12 hours. Just following these moving thoughts right there, you suddenly clearly see that there is nothing to gain, like the great empty space. Also, the empty space has neither shape nor boundary.

[01:07]

Inside and outside are one reality. Both wisdom and its object disappear. Both reality and understanding of it are eliminated. Three times, past, present, and future, are all equal. Those who have reached such a field are called a person of the serene way, who has nothing to study and non-doing." Dogen's comment, these are phrases uttered by the old man O-an. Using his entire strength, it seems that he is simply chasing the shadows and never knew resting.

[02:09]

When inside and outside are not one, is the Buddhadharma not there? Fat is inside and fat is outside. Also, empty space has both shape and boundary, is the utterance of the Buddha's ancestors. What is the empty space? I suppose that Ing-an, O-an, has not yet known what the empty space is. He does not see the empty space. He has not yet grasped the empty space. He has not yet struck the empty space. He mentions arising mind and moving thoughts. There is a principle that the mind does not move.

[03:16]

How is there arising mind? within 12 hours. The mind cannot enter into 12 hours. The 12 hours does not come into the 12 minds. How is it possible for the mind to arise? What are the moving thoughts? Do the thoughts move or not move? Or do they not move or not move? What is a moving like? and fat is the not moving, like. Fat does he call thoughts. Do thoughts exist within 12 hours? Do 12 hours exist within thought? Do they exist when there are no dichotomies? He says that it is easy to understand if we simply facing arising mind and moving thought.

[04:18]

within 12 hours. What shall we understand easily? Does he mean we can easily understand the way of Buddha ancestors? If so, the Buddha way is neither easy to understand nor difficult to understand. That is, Fai, Nanyue, or Nangaku, and Jiangshi, or Kosei, engaged in the wholehearted practice of the Way under the guidance of their teachers for many years. He said, suddenly, clearly, see that there is nothing to gain. He has not yet seen the way of the ancestors, even in a dream. How can a person with such inferior capability wish to understand easily? I can judge that he has not yet fully investigated the great way of Buddha ancestors.

[05:23]

If Buddha Dharma were, as he said, how could it have reached until today? So he made very kind of a heavy criticism against this person. And I don't really understand why he picked up this person, this saying, in the context of this writing about the true reality of all beings. Before, in the previous section, he criticized the idea of identity of the Three Teachings. And if this person is mentioned about that idea, there's some meaning that Dogen needs to criticize this person's saying. But he didn't say anything about those Three Teachings. And I don't think this person's statement, saying,

[06:30]

especially wonderful, but I don't think, I don't see any mistake. Maybe it's not perfect from Dogen's point of view, but I don't think it's mistaken. So why Dogen picked up these things of this person and made such a severe criticism? I don't really understand. So if you have some idea, please give me. Please. I was just telling Helen that Dogen wrote a lot. Dogen wrote a lot of stuff. So I think, you know, just numbers games, numbers. Do you think so? So he wrote too much and he didn't remember. Well, maybe one possibility is There is some kind of twisted karma.

[07:34]

Even though he criticizes this person, it seems to me like he's not really criticizing you. Well, later, after that, he compared this person and the Chinese Zen master. He met his age. So Owen was about 60 years old. before Dogen went to China. And he said, oh, this person is much better than those Zen masters he met. So he doesn't at least praise this person. Well, he does praise him later, but he says maybe by now he's got it or something. That means when he was the abbot of that monastery, he wasn't. I don't know, to me it seems, it's confusing because, I don't know, it seems like he's going out of his way to criticize this person.

[08:53]

Yeah, so I'd like to talk about kind of a twisted karma within Song China. This O-an, let me write in Japanese because I don't really know Chinese pronunciation. O-an, Donge, was a disciple of Kokyu Shoryu. Kokyu Shoryu. And Kokyu Shoryu is a disciple of Engo Kokugo. Engo is the person I mentioned this morning. I mean, Dogen unquoted.

[09:55]

This person is a person who made a Blue Cliff record. And Dogen respected this person. And another disciple of Engo Kokugon is Daiei Soko. And Daiei's disciple is Setsuan Tokkō. And Setsuan Tokkō is a teacher of Musai Ryōha. This Musai Ryoha is the abbot of Tien-Tung Monastery Fendogen visited. Hm? Musai Ryoha. Did he like him? I don't know. And, you know, Daiei is a person who severely criticized

[11:05]

Soto Zen masters are the silent illumination. And those masters are, in our lineage, Choro Seiryo. And Choro is a disciple of Tanka Shijun. And Tankai is a disciple of Fuyō Dōkai, the person who I mentioned this morning. Fuyō Dōkai, the Zen master who was exiled because he rejected the invitation from the emperor. And Choro Seiryō, or in my lineage, this person is called Shinketsu Seiryō. Choro is the name of the temple this person lived.

[12:10]

And Shinketsu is this person's go name. And Choro Seiryo's dharma brother is Wanshi Shogaku. Wanshi is a person who composed 100 verses on 100 koans, and that later became Shōyō-roku, or Book of Serenity. So this is a person who made Hekigan-roku, and this is a person who made Shōyō-roku. And Choro Seiryō's disciple is Tendo Sōgaku. And Tendō Sōgaku Disciple is Setchō Jikan.

[13:11]

And Nyōjō. And Dōgen. Yes. This is Rinzai. This is Soto. And this tradition, or lineage, is most popular and powerful in this age, because Daiei was really popular, powerful teacher. And this tradition is called a Koan Zen, or Kensho Zen. In their tradition, enlightenment experience or Kensho experience is really important.

[14:20]

And as a method to have that enlightenment experience, they use koan. Or another name is Kanna. Kan-na-zen. Kan is to see. Seeing the wa is koan, or story. And Daiei Soko criticized Shinketsu and Wanshi's style of practice as silent, illumination or moksho. The point is they just sit and they have no enlightenment. That is the point. So these two kind of have been, you know, argue with each other.

[15:26]

This is in the 12th century. So after 12th century until today, this discussion has been continuing. Whether just sitting or having enlightenment is important, or just sitting is enough. You know, this discussion starts here. And of course, Dogen is this side. Dogen's main target of criticism is Daiei. If you read Shobo Genzo, you find often Dogen criticize or even attack Daiei. And Daiei attack these people. So it's a kind of a twisted karma. From Dogen's point of view, this kind of practice

[16:29]

Not right. But from these people, this is not right. So there is a twisted karma. And there is another twisted karma that is in Japan. Before Dogen, there are two Zen groups or Zen movements. One is, of course, A-size. Acai was the first Japanese master who went to China and transmitted Rinzai Zen. The Rinzai Zen Acai transmitted is not from this lineage, but another lineage of Rinzai named Koryu, or Koryu means a yellow dragon school. This lineage is from Yogi, Yogi school and Koryo school are two branch school, sub-school in Rinzai, in Song dynasty.

[17:36]

And Eisai was Myozen's teacher, and Myozen was Dogen's teacher. Dogen practiced Zen at Kenmin-ji in Japan. And there is another person who started his own school of Zen in Japan around the same time as Eisai. His name is Noh Ning. This person didn't go to China, but he liked meditation practice. So he practiced by himself, and he thought he attained enlightenment. But he didn't receive transmission. But because this person was very powerful, charismatic person, he had many students. And his group was called Dharma Shu.

[18:39]

Yeah, Dharma... Noni is a teacher of Kaku'an. And the Kakuan is the original teacher of Eijo. Eijo is Dogen's major disciple, and Darumaya, and second, Abotome Heiji. And beside Eijo, another Kakuan disciple is Eikan. First, Eijo became Dogen's disciple. And later, in 1241, Dogen was still in Kyoto. This person, Ekan, Ekan had already teacher, and he had many students. With his own student, Ekan became Dogen's disciple.

[19:48]

And Ekan's students were people like Gikai, Gien, Gi-in. Many people who has Gi in the first part of their Dharma name are originally Ekan's disciples. And those people, after Eijō, you know, continued Sōtō school. But when this person Nōnin started Zen practice, especially after Eisai came back from China, receiving the Dharma transmission from Chinese Zen master, Nonin was blamed that he has no transmission.

[20:51]

So what Nonin did was he wrote a letter about his enlightenment experience and understanding, and sent two of his disciples to China. and ask receiving Dharma transmission through letter. And that Chinese Zen master, Nonin, received transmission was this person, Setsubun Tokko. Daiei's disciple. So there is a twisted karma. So there is a basic kind of a conflict between two lineages. And Dogen criticized this person.

[21:58]

But these people, who is originally from this lineage, became Dogen's disciples. So there's some complicated situation. Anyway, and another important, not important, but interesting thing is, you know, Wanshi, or the Abbot of Tendo Monastery, for many years. And he was the person who made Tendo Monastery a big monastery. He was the abbot of Tendo Monastery for more than 30 years. And when Wanshi died, this person, Ohan Donge, became the abbot of Tendo Monastery after Wanshi. the monastery is supported by the government, the abbot was selected by the government.

[23:09]

So, the abbot of that monastery is not necessarily a previous abbot's disciple. So, after one died, this person, O-Wan, became the abbot of Kento Monastery. Tendō Sōgaku, this person also became the abbot of Tendō Monastery. And of course, Nyōjō was the abbot of Tendō Monastery. So all these people were the abbot of Tendō Monastery where Dōgen practiced. This is another interesting connection. So, Ōwan was the abbot of Tendo Monastery about 60 years ago before Dogen visited. So probably Dogen, you know, heard about this person. And another point is, at that time, Owen and Daiei was compared and considered two most eminent Inzai masters at that time.

[24:27]

Even though Do-O-Wan was a Dharma nephew of Dai-E, this person seems very eminent person. That is a connection between Do-Gen and this person. So it might be some twisted karma between Do-Gen and this person. What happens in that monastery? who practiced with Wanshi and don't want to practice with this person, have to leave the monastery.

[25:34]

So, monastery... You know, that is the system of so-called... That kind of monastery was called the juposatsu. That means the monastery supported by the government or emperor. the abbot is selected by the government. So if this abbot died or resigned, another one is selected by the abbot, not by this person. So practice style might be completely changed. Then the monks who want to continue practicing this style have to leave. And his student came to the monastery. So it's moving around.

[26:36]

And that is why, for example, in Japanese Rinzai monastery, like big Rinzai monastery, like Daitoku-ji, there is many small sub-temples within Daitoku-ji. That was the reason why there are so many small sub-temples within large, big monasteries is when one abbot dies, the abbot's disciple may build a stupa of the deceased abbot. And as a kind of excuse to stay, they build a small temple to not protect but take care of the They are teachers' graves. And during the many centuries, there are many such sub-temples within this big monastery.

[27:39]

So it has a good point and not so good point. I mean, all those groups are always conflicting with each other. But now... In Japan? Yeah, today they don't have so much problem. They don't have so much energy to fight. What am I talking? Oh, there is a kind of a complicated connection between Dogen and this person. So one reason Dogen kind of a Chris side is, this person is this side, not that side. And still, I don't really understand, you know, within this, the context of this writing of Shoho Jisso, his state, his saying, Owen's saying, and Dogen's, you know, how can I say, point, doesn't really

[28:51]

How can I say? Much. I mean... So... But probably, even though I don't understand what the point Dogen want to criticize, probably at the time of Dogen, this might be clear enough what Dogen want to say. And so I'd like to kind of introduce this type of practice in this lineage. I mean, I have never practiced that kind of so-called Kensho or Koan Zen, and I don't know much about it. But it's kind of interesting how different from Dogen's practice and so-called Kanna-Zen or Koan-Zen practice.

[29:57]

But it doesn't sound like Owen is talking about Kanna-Zen. No. It sounds more like Zazen. Right. In this statement, that's why I'm wondering why Dogen criticized this particular saying. But there is a basic difference between this type of Zen and Dogen's type of Zen. In order to understand, I'd like to introduce one person's so-called enlightenment experience. It's really different. This is from D.T. Suzuki's essays in Zen Buddhism, and the title of the essay is Satori. So D.T. Suzuki's essay about what Satori is. And according, of course, according to D.T.

[30:58]

Suzuki, Satori is the most essential point of Rinzai Zen practice. And he, D.T. Suzuki, introduced several examples in some dynasties and masters' Kensho experience. This is one example of Mugaku Sogen in Japanese. I also mentioned this person this morning. He came to Japan from China when Song Dynasty was conquered by Mongols.

[32:03]

And he became the first founder of Engakuji Monastery in Kamakura. This person is focused on the koan of Mu. I think you are familiar with Mu. That is Joshu's buddha nature. Dog's buddha nature. If dog has buddha nature or not. Joshu said Mu. And this is interesting, you know, in the Rinzai tradition, this koan of dog's buddha nature is based on mumonkan, or gate, this gate. And mumonkan, this story is only if a monk asked whether a dog has buddha nature or not.

[33:05]

Joshu said, Mu. That's the end of the story. But in Shoryo-roku, once you see the Shoryo-roku, there's another part. First, to the first monk, Joshu said, Mu. And to the second monk who asked the same question, Joshu said, U. U means the dog has buddha nature. You know, the story is different between Rinzai and Sōtō. And if you read Shōyō-roku, you can see that this meaning of first joshusei to mu and second joshusei to bu is kind of a stage of practice of the disciple or students. No, in Shoryuroku, first, Joshu said, uu, and second, Joshu said, muu.

[34:09]

The person who made the commentary of Shoryuroku said, first, Joshu gave like a candy. You know, even dog has Buddha nature. And later, he took out that candy, mu. So this is like a stage of education or teaching method. But when Dogen Zenji told the same story in Shobo Genzo Bussho, he changed the order. First, Joshu said mu. And second, Joshu said u. So it seems Dogen's interpretation is also different from Wanshi or Shoyoroku's. First, Joshu said u, and second, mu.

[35:14]

So it's not a step-by-step teaching, but for Dogen, Wu and Mu is two sides of one reality, or true reality of all beings. It's not a step. That is the difference between Shoryo-Roku and Dogen's Bussho. And in the case of Mumonkan, Bussho, or Buddha nature, is just Mu. And this Mu is beyond any duality of Wu and Mu. And Momonkan said practitioners should take that Mu like a burning fireball. So you cannot think of anything. That is Rinzai approach of this koan of Mu.

[36:16]

And this Zen master, Mugaku Sogen, is working on this koan. So D.T. Suzuki says, the case of Mugaku Sogen was more extraordinary than that of later, before he talked about Hakuin's. Unfortunately, in this case, we have his own recording of it in detail. So, Mugakuso Gen recorded his experience. And his experience was, when I was 14, I went up to Kinzan. Kinzan is the monastery. Daiei used to be there. When 17, when he was 17 years old, I made up my mind to study Buddhism and began to unravel the mystery of Joshu's Mu.

[37:24]

So he started to practice on Joshu's Mu when he was 17. I expected to finish the matter within one year. But I did not come to any understanding of it after all. Another year passed without much avail. And three more years, also finding myself with no progress. So he continued to work for me. In the fifth or sixth year, no special changes came over me. Then Mu became so inseparably attached to me that I could not get away from it even while asleep. So even when he was sleeping, he was fighting against Mu. This is a kind of a practice in Rinzai tradition.

[38:29]

This whole universe seems to be nothing but the Mu itself. In the meantime, I was told by an old monk to set it aside for a while and see how things would go with me. So he gave advice to stop it for a while. According to this advice, I dropped the matter altogether and sat quietly. So he, without working on Koan, he tried to sit quietly, just sitting. But owing to the fact that the Mu had been with me so long, I could in no way shake it off, however much I tried. So Mu was always together with him. When I was sitting, I forgot that I was sitting.

[39:33]

Nor was I conscious of my own body. Nothing but a sense of utter blankness prevailed. Half a year thus passed. Like a bird escaping from its cage, my mind, my consciousness, moved about without restraint, sometimes eastward, sometimes westward, sometimes northward or southward. Sitting through two days in succession, or through one day a night, I did not feel any fatigue. At the time, there were about 900 monks residing in the monastery, 900 monks, among whom there were many devoted students of Zen.

[40:44]

One day, while sitting, I felt as if my mind and my body were separated from each other and lost the chance of getting back together. So body and mind separated. All the monks about me thought that I was quite dead. But an old monk among them said that, I was frozen to a state of immovability while absorbed in deep meditation. So in this type of meditation, we may experience this kind of very extreme condition of concentration.

[41:47]

And that if I were covered up with warm clothing, I should by myself come to my senses. So other people thought he was dead. This proved true, for I finally awoke from it. And when I asked the monks near my seat how long I had been in that condition, so he had no consciousness. They told me it was one day a night, so all one day a night he was in such a condition. After this, I still kept up my practice of sitting. I could now sleep a little, so before he couldn't. When I closed my eyes, a broad expanse of emptiness presented itself before them, which then assumed the form of a farmyard.

[42:59]

Through this piece of land, I walked and walked until I got thoroughly familiar with the ground. But as soon as my eyes were opened, The vision altogether disappeared. One night, sitting far into the night, I kept my eyes open and was aware of my sitting up in my seat. All of a sudden, the sound of striking the board in front of the head monk's room licked my ear, which at once revealed me, the Original man. Original man in full. There was then no more of that vision which appeared at the closing of my eyes. Hastily, I came down from the seat and ran out into the moonlight.

[44:04]

Moonlit night. And went up to the garden house called Ganki. We are looking up to the sky. I laughed loudly. Oh, how great is the Dharmakaya. Oh, how great and immense forevermore. Then my joy knew no bounds. I could not quietly sit in the meditation hall. So he couldn't sit. I went about with no special purpose in the mountains. Walking this way and that, I thought of the sun and the moon traversing in a day through a space, well, it's, I don't know, four billion miles wide. My present abode is in China. I reflected then, and they say the district of Yang is the center of the earth.

[45:12]

So where he is now is the center of the earth. If so, this place must be two billion miles away from where the sun rises. So he saw the sun. And how is it that as soon as it comes up, its rays lose no time in striking my face? So when sun rise, and the person is very far distance from the sun, still the moment the sun rise, the sunlight hit his eye. And he was surprised about that. I reflected again. The rays of my own eye must revel just as instantaneously as those of the sun as it reaches the latter.

[46:17]

My eyes, my mind, are they not the Dharmakaya itself? So that means if sunlight comes to his eyes instantaneously, his eyes go to the sun instantaneously. So he found that he himself is Dharmakaya. Thinking thus, I felt all the bonds snapped and broken to pieces. that had been tying me for so many ages? How many numberless years had I been sitting in the hole of ants? That means sitting in the hole of individual self, as ego. How many numberless years had I been sitting in the hole of ants Today, even in every pore of my skin, there lie all the Buddha lands in the ten quarters.

[47:29]

In the ten quarters is in ten directions. I thought within myself, even if I have no greater satori, he found that Today, even in every pore of my skin, there lie all the Buddha land in the ten directions. Is this same as Nogen is saying or not? To me, this is very interesting and important. If these two are the same, then, you know, Rinzai practice and Soto practice are not completely different. So this is our koan. And I only practice in Dogen's way, so I cannot make sure. So if you have some experience in Rinzai, please let me know. Anyway, as a word, these two are, to me, are the same.

[48:31]

You know, me and Ten Directions are all connected. And there's no Ten Directions world beside this person. And without the connection with the 10-direction world, this person doesn't really exist. So oneness between the knot of the network of interdependent origination and this entire network is completely connected and completely one. And yet, as Dogen said, each one of us is completely independent. This kind of, how can I say, not simple or flat, but very complicated or more than two-dimensional reality. So I have no answer.

[49:35]

But it seems that their point of their discussion is about the method or style of practice, not the final reality we can find or awaken to, to me. Anyway. Let me start to talk about this person's saying. So I don't think this person, Owen, saying in this statement and Dogen want to say in this writing is not completely different. So that is another reason I don't really understand why Dogen criticized this person. Please. No, Rinzai. Yeah. I'm not sure if he went to Pure Land or not, but he studied Pure Land Buddhism.

[50:45]

Okay, this person, Owens, said, If you wish to understand easily, This word easily might be a problem for Dogen, as he mentioned later. Simply face arising mind and moving thought. Arising mind is, you know, our mind is always arising, staying for a while, and perishing. This movement of thought, coming and going of, you know, thought. And moving thought is the same thing. Page 17. Throughout 12 hours, so we should watch this moving mind or arising mind or moving thought that's coming and going of our own mind for throughout 12 hours.

[51:55]

12 hours means 24 hours. Do you understand? In the ancient times, in China and Japan, one day has 12 hours, not 24. Just following these moving thoughts, like they are. In our practice, we let go of the thought, but this person said we should follow this thought. There might be some difference here. You suddenly clearly see that there is nothing to gain like the great empty space. So when you see each and every coming and going of thought, I think it means there is some space between one thought and another thought.

[52:59]

even though that is less than, shorter than one moment. To see that empty space, I think, is important point in this kind of practice. So there is nothing to gain like the great empty space. Also, the empty space has neither shape nor boundary. Empty space is no shape, of course, and no boundary. Empty space is just one empty space. And within this empty space, thoughts are coming and going, like in our then, we are like a blue sky, and within this blue sky, thoughts are coming, stay for a while, and disappear. Same thing. And inside and outside are one reality, no separation between inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves.

[54:00]

And both wisdom and its object disappear. So there's no subject-object relationship. Both reality and understanding of it, the reality of all beings, our understanding, observation of it are eliminated. Three times past, present and future are all equal. Those who have reached such a field are called a person of the serene way. Person of the serene way who has nothing to study and non-doing is an expression from Shodokan. Do you know Shodokan? The song of enlightenment of the way. Anyway, according to this person, this is our practice and awakening.

[55:15]

And Dogen made comment on this person's statement. These are phrases uttered by the old man, O-an, using his entire strength. It seems that he is simply chasing the shadows and never knew resting. I don't understand this. He's simply chasing the shadows and never knew resting. Always chasing after the shadow of something. Yeah, I know that, but never resting. What does it mean?

[56:18]

I mean, he said he is less... as if you're following them, as if you're trying to catch them, then it's chasing something that's gone. Do you think that is what Dogen is saying about this person's practice? What's the difference between letting go of the thoughts and following the thoughts? Because I've done both of those practices and ultimately there's no difference. Maybe. It's technically related. Yeah, it's clear chasing shadow means chasing, following the thought.

[57:24]

But Dogen said never resting means this chasing never finished, never done. That means there's no time our thoughts stop, so there's no time we can rest. Please. Invading his territory. He's trying to, he's getting very picky about details. Defending his territory from the outsiders. I see. That might be so. Please. Bring this up. I haven't really talked about it, but when I meditate, I mean, when I sit there, sometimes, I go into a huge empty space.

[58:34]

It's sort of like that picture of the old woman and the young woman. But I can sit there, and I can sit there with my eyes open, and be in this huge space. It's not the space I'm sitting in a zendo. I mean, could this not be little? And not only can I sit in this huge empty space, but the way that it happens is this chasing shadows. It comes from the lines on the wall, the shadows and the light in the room. So you go into this place. I think this is literal. This sounds exactly like what it is I think this is what Owen is saying about his practice, so it is literal, yes, I think so. So, literally, I go into this place, there is no separation between me and the inside and the outside, and then, just like what you were talking about before, when I come back out of it, back to the window, back to his office,

[59:45]

I want to run out into the garden and go, yay! Because there is no separation. So you had the same kind of experience with this person? Exactly. That's good. And often. Often? Wow. I mean, do you not? I've never had that experience. I have. Wow. That's wonderful. Please. If it's misunderstood on a level, it sounds like there's a person separate from the thinking who can watch thought move. It's done.

[60:55]

It seems like there's this kind of a semantic, fundamental misunderstanding of the word. Chasing versus, or following a thought versus letting go. Because when I'm thinking about what I'm going to do tomorrow when I'm doing Zazen, I only realize it after the fact. I'm not watching the thoughts continue. Otherwise, if I am, You're actually aware of what has gone on before. Is that your experience? I don't know. I have many experiences. Please. Actually, when I read this line, or when I hear this line, it seems that he's simply chasing the shadow forever and resting. I guess I was thinking of it more metaphorically.

[61:58]

If he's chasing the shadows of understanding and never resting, how I interpret it is, going and saying, oh, he's just out there, his practice and his understanding that he's expounding, basically. You know, he's just chasing the shadows. He's out there, you know, way off in the left field, never knew resting, and it's like, he never got it. That, I don't know, that's my interpretation. Maybe an idiomatic way of understanding, chasing shadows. You're not really dealing with the real thing, with what's important. You're just sort of doing something foolish. Well, another meaning of chasing shadow is shadow is always together with this person. So, when we learn chasing the shadow, the shadow is coming with me.

[63:01]

So there is no time this resting is done. That is one meaning of chasing the shadow. In this case, chasing the shadow of myself. So when the shadow runs, I have to run. And as far as I'm running, the shadow is running. So there's no time. As far as we are chasing after the shadow, there's no time we can settle down. That is one possible meaning. So probably Dogen is saying chasing, following the thought doesn't work. Maybe. I mean, I have no fixed understanding yet about this part of this writing. So, I'm still, you know, trying to figure out what Dogen is saying. So please, don't think I'm teaching you. I'm still studying.

[64:02]

And next he asked a question. When inside and outside are not one, Is the Buddha Dharma not there? That means, this person said, inside and outside are one reality. Hyori ichi-nyo. And Dogen asked, if there are two sides, where is Buddha Dharma? That means, this person only sees the oneness, does not see twoness, not oneness. So Dogen is always, always trying to show both sides. So just say inside and outside are one is not enough for Dogen. But for, I think, this person, we are always within duality. So to see oneness of these two is awakening.

[65:10]

But what Dogen is saying is we have to go beyond that awakening of oneness. So we return to not oneness, again to this actual dualistic reality. That is what Dogen always points out. So to go to see the absolute or ultimate reality of oneness is not enough. We should see, please. we should see the many different characteristics within that oneness or emptiness. I think that is what Dogen said in Genjo Koan. He said, you know, when we sail a boat in the ocean, first we see many things, shores and mountains, but when we continue to sail and go to the midst of the ocean, he said, We only see the round shape of the ocean, but he said that is not the goal.

[66:16]

He should say that we must study various, limitless characteristics of the ocean. This one circle means oneness of the ocean. but we should see many different characteristics within that oneness. And he said, for a fish, water is like a palace. For heavenly beings, water is like a jewel. And for the hungry ghost, water is like a... not a hungry ghost, but a hell dweller's water is like a... what is the word? A bath. So, depending upon the person's situation, this entire world seems very different. That is what Dogen said in Shohoji, so that there are one piece, two piece, three piece, and four piece of ten directions.

[67:22]

So even though we are really one with ten directions, the scenery of this ten direction world are different in each time. So we have to see not only oneness, but also within this oneness there are many different characteristics or sceneries. So I think this question has some meaning. I think so. For example, in Buddhism... No, we cannot, we cannot. It's not enough. Just one. He always says one. Two. Yeah.

[68:25]

For example, in Shobo Genzo Busho, he said, he discussed about Buddha nature from Wu Buddha nature and Mu Buddha nature. Always. Please. I think it's like the second. And again, keep asking, fat is inside, fat is outside. And empty space has both shape and boundary, is the utterance of the Buddha ancestor. So he's saying the opposite side of this Owen's statement. Owen said, empty space has no shape and boundary.

[69:29]

Usually that is awakening of emptiness. No shape, no boundary, no form. But Dogen again is saying MP space has a shape and boundary. That is how he wrote in Shobo Genzo, Koku, or Empty Space, and he quoted the Koan story of Seikyo and Seido. Seikyo asked Seido, do you know how to grasp the empty space? And Seido said, yes, I know. you know, grasping the space or air with hands. But Seikyo says that is not the way to grasp the empty space. And when Seizo asked, then, how do you grasp the empty space?

[70:33]

Then he grabbed the person's nose. That is how, you know, to grasp the empty space. That means empty space has shape, has boundary, and pain. That means these five skandhas is empty. So to grasp the air doesn't mean anything. But in order to grasp the emptiness, we have to grasp these five skandhas. This is the only way we can grasp the empty space. So empty space has shape, karmic body, and mind. That is empty. So he is trying to show always the other side of, in this case, Owen's statement. So FAP is empty space.

[71:38]

That means without five scanners or form, there's no emptiness. But we think we need to see emptiness beyond five skandhas, or rupa. But to grasp these five skandhas is the only way we can grasp emptiness. The Heart Sutra is saying, form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. But we are looking for emptiness beyond this form. According to Dogen, that is a mistake. All right. That's a good question.

[72:47]

Ask Dogen what this is. Yeah, that is how we develop our understanding, you know, we question to Dogen. Dogen is trying to show the other side of what Zen Master is saying, so we have to ask Dogen. The other side Dogen might overlook. That is how we study Dharma with Dogen's guidance. reading or studying Shobo Genzo is not memorizing what he is saying and accept it as absolutely too fixed system of teaching. But we need to have a dialogue between what he is saying and our question. That is how we continue Dogen's practice. So having a question is very important.

[73:51]

And of course, because Dogen is dead, he doesn't give us an answer. We have to find the answer by ourselves. This is the way we continue our practice and study Dharma. Anyway, I suppose that Owen has not yet known what the empty space is. He does not see the empty space. He has not yet grasped the empty space. He has not yet struck the empty space. Struck the empty space is another expression. maybe it has something to do with Nyojo's poem of Windbell. Windbell. Do you know Nyojo's poem on Windbell? The entire body of Windbell is like a mouse and always

[74:55]

discussing, talking, or expressing prajna with the wind from any direction. The wind bell doesn't make a choice, you know, the wind from north or south or east or west. But together with all beings, the wind bell is always expressing and discussing emptiness. So, striking the emptiness. And he also used this expression, striking the emptiness, in Bendowa, or Jijiyu Zanmai. It's not only the time we strike the emptiness, but also the rest of the time, that sound is always, what's the word, continue, resonating.

[75:59]

Let's see. I hope I can finish this section. He mentions arising mind and moving thoughts. There is a principle that the mind does not move. It's up to the definition of what mind is. Mind has many different meanings. If mind is our thinking, it's always moving. But Dogen used this mind as, one mind is all beings, and all beings is one mind. In Shobo Genzo, Sokushin Zebutsu, the mind is itself Buddha. Dogen said this mind, in the expression of Sokushin Zebutsu, is the mind that is, one mind is itself all beings, and all beings is one mind. So this one mind is same as true reality. If mind is referred to that true reality, then it doesn't move.

[77:11]

That means, you know, reality of all beings is eternal. And how is there arising mind within 12 hours? This is about being and time. Being and time is really one thing. So within 12 hours, already being is there. Nothing can come and go, come or go. Because being and time is always together, always one. When time is there, being is already there. So nothing extra can come in. The mind cannot enter into 12 hours. So there's no two separate things, 12 hours and mind. So mind cannot come into. And the 12 hours does not come into the 12 minds.

[78:13]

Because these two are really one thing. How is it possible for the mind to arise? What are the moving thoughts? Do the swords move or not move? Or do they not move or not move? So this is the way we examine someone's saying, you know, following Dogen. Even Dogen's saying should be examined in this way. And this is how Dogen works with koan or any expression of dharma. He examines even one phrase from many different directions and always criticizes something. Or always showing the other side.

[79:15]

What is the moving like? And what is the not moving like? You know, in the Sansuikyo, or the Mountain and Water Sutra, he said, Mountain is moving, and Mountain does not move. And he said, Water is always moving, and yet Water never moves. He always said two things. And what does he call thoughts? Do thoughts exist within 12 hours? Do 12 hours exist within thoughts? Do they exist when there are no dichotomies? So he's not saying some, another kind of, a different kind of truth beside what this Zen Master is saying. But he's trying, just checking out. try to make our mind flexible.

[80:28]

He said that it is easy to understand if we simply facing arising mind and moving thought within 12 hours. How shall we understand easily? Does he mean we can easily understand the way of good ancestors? If so, the Buddha way is neither easy to understand, nor difficult to understand. That is why Nanyue, or Nangaku, and Jiangxi, or Kosei, Nangaku is Nangaku Ejo, and Kosei referred to Ejo's disciple, Baso Doitsu, or Mazu. This is about a story of polishing a tile. I don't have time to talk about this story. It's a short story, but it needs a long explanation.

[81:31]

But if you are interested, please read Zazen Shin, or Acupuncture Needle of Zazen. But Nangaku practiced with his teacher, Huinan, the sixth ancestor, for eight years until he understood Huinan's question of what is this that does come. And Baso practiced with Nangaku for 15 years. Anyway, engaged in the wholehearted practice of the Way, Bendo, under the guidance of their teachers for many years, so there's nothing easy in Buddha Dharma, or Buddha Way. Of course, nothing difficult. But it takes a long time. You know, this continuous practice is itself Buddha Dharma.

[82:33]

And he says, suddenly clearly see that there is nothing to gain. He has not yet seen the way of the ancestors even in a dream. How can a person with such inferior capability wish to understand easily? He doesn't like this, suddenly clearly see. clearly see is like there is a person who is seeing and the reality which is seeing. That is the reason he didn't like the expression Kensho. Kensho is seeing nature, of course seeing the Buddha nature, and according to him Buddha nature cannot be seen in any way, because Buddha nature is the way things are. and there's no one who is seeing, who can discover, and no reality or Buddha nature which can be seen.

[83:40]

I can judge that he has not yet free investigated the great way of Buddha ancestors. If Buddha Dharma were as he says, how could it have reached until today? So, it seems he's criticizing this, the master, but maybe not. Any questions? Okay. Thank you very much.

[84:20]

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