Good morning. Well thank you for coming out to Green Gulch on this blustery, windy, rainy Sunday. I always feel like when the weather is like this, the green dragon, this is also called Green Dragon Temple, as well as Green Gulch Farm, I think of the green dragon as being stirred up and flouncing around the valley. Perhaps because there's so many people who have gone down into the green dragon's cave these last weeks. We're right at the end of a practice period at Green Gulch.

[01:10]

We have a week or so of regular schedule, and then we have another week of Seshin, intensive meditation week, and then the practice period is over after some ceremonies. So it's really getting down to the end of seven, it will be seven or so weeks of intensive practice. And it gets difficult right around this time for people, and it's difficult for people right around this time, whether they're in practice period or not. The holiday time can be very difficult. We just had Thanksgiving last week, and it's interesting about the word thanks. The word thank means in and of itself to express gratitude, and to give gratitude.

[02:10]

So to say thanksgiving is kind of redundant almost, because thank, within the word thank itself is this feeling of giving, giving gratitude. And the root of the word thank is thong, t-o-n-g, and that is the root of to think, and to feel, and thought. So maybe it's more appropriate rather than saying I think, therefore I am, I think, therefore I thank. Think and thank. If you think, you thank. As an activity of human beings, gratitude arises unbidden.

[03:14]

I think, therefore I thank. So Thanksgiving is over, and the difficulties we have around these holidays often have to do with our sentiments. And in a koan that we're studying in Tenzin Roshi's Book of Serenity class, in the commentary it says, human sentiments and the way of dharma are as disparate as the sky from the earth. So human sentiments and the way of dharma, or the dharma way, are as distant from each other as heaven and earth, or the sky and the earth. Now I think sentiments are often, when we think of all human sentiments, that's just

[04:24]

a natural activity, and it's nothing I want to necessarily get rid of, or what's the matter with them? And I do feel these kind of sentiments are sentimental about certain things. The word sentiment means a cast of mind, or an attitude of mind, or a view, based on emotion often, anger or romantic ideas, but it's some kind of cast or attitude of mind. So to think of human sentiments and the dharma way as being disparate or as separate as heaven and earth, when you look at sentiments and think, if I'm relating to the world sentimentally or with sentiments, then I have a kind of predisposition, or my mind is already cast

[05:29]

in a certain way, or kind of formed in a certain way, so that when I meet certain situations, or I meet certain people, or certain foods, or whatever it is, I immediately have a kind of take on that, even before the actual meeting, it's a cast, you cast your mind in a certain direction, in a certain way, take a particular attitude or stance. And when we do that, our encounters, our meetings, our moments of life become rather, what shall I say, kind of a stale feeling, not so fresh. You know, if this kind of person, I always treat this kind of way, it doesn't give me a chance to actually meet that person. Who is that person? What are they like? What are they like today? Even if it's somebody I know pretty well, how are they this morning?

[06:34]

Good morning. So human sentiments, if we live by human sentiments, we enforce a kind of routinized, habitual way of relating to the world, or relating to self as well. And this can be, what shall I say, this can cause lots of problems and difficulties, human sentiment. So sentiment, it also has this feeling of nostalgia, and nostalgia means to want to return to things and places that are no longer there. And I think I kind of like nostalgia as a cast of mind, I guess, it's kind of fun, you

[07:35]

know, to take a sentimental journey, going to take a sentimental journey home. And we can do this, and around holiday time, I think this, we're particularly subject to this kind of thinking, perhaps, of, you know, thanksgivings of the past, or Christmases or holidays of the past, and how horrible they were, or how great they were, and they never will be again, and this kind of, we can get lost in this kind of thinking. The root of nostalgia is nostos, or to return home. So it's this longing to return home to some place that's, you know, a shelter and a protection, and where we're comfortable, and where we're totally accepted for who we are. That may have not been your home, but that's what nostalgia is, wanting to return to some place like that, searching for that. And we search in the wrong places, I think, for this return home.

[08:44]

Also part of sentiment, one of the definitions is mockishness, and I wasn't familiar with the word mockish, mockishness, so mockish has to do with mock, which is a maggot. So maggots are these legless, soft-bodied worm critters that are part of a particular species of, we associate them usually with flies, the house fly, the blue bottle fly, these maggots. So sentiments and grub-like beings, kind of, that feed on kind of, I don't want to get too graphic, but kind of old material, you know, old material, old memories and old wishes

[09:51]

and longings and mockishness, sentiments. So human sentiments and the way of the Dharma, or Dharma way, are as disparate as heaven from earth. So what is Dharma way, what's the difference, what is, isn't, is there anything outside of human sentiments? I mean, can we actually live in the world without human sentiments? Do we want to? So in the practice period, when I mentioned lots of people are in the cave with the dragon, we sometimes have the image of going down into the green dragon's cave. How many times have I gone down into the green dragon's cave for you? And going into the green dragon's cave is going down into whatever our life is without

[10:57]

trying to make it better, make it comfy cozy, making it, doing something, clinging to things in certain ways so that it's according to how we like it and according to our inclinations or our sentiments. Going into the green dragon's cave is being willing to beat yourself dropping human sentiments or facing human sentiments and seeing what they actually are and not activating them or involving oneself in them, even if you see how they come up around in and around our life, thoughts and body, speech and mind, to not activating them and living by them

[12:02]

and using those as a way to relate to the world. So one of the descriptions of initiation that anthropologically speaking, women's initiation ceremonies have three parts to them. The first is, there's always teaching involved, there's teaching, but then there's enclosure or containment, building a container, having a container. And I think the practice period is this kind of enclosure or container for working with ourselves in the most subtle and gross and subtle ways that we can. We create a beautiful container, an enclosure, the cave, and we voluntarily and willingly

[13:08]

go in to the enclosure. And the second part of the initiation is metamorphosis or while you're in the enclosure, and this can also be likened to the cocoon. And I'm not sure if maggots have cocoons. Does anybody know? Do maggots have cocoons? Yes, they do. Maggots have cocoons, so I'm so happy. So this cocoon, spinning a cocoon for yourself to do the work that you need to do inside the cocoon for transformation, which is the second, metamorphosis or transformation is the second part of initiation. And while you're in that enclosure, now for many people, just even the thought of enclosure kind of, you begin to fight, you know, it feels like prison. But if you voluntarily go into enclosure, if you know that this is what you need to

[14:10]

do and the gratefulness that there is such a container for you, such a cocoon or enclosure, then your willingness, which is really, you can't be forced to go into the enclosure. It doesn't really work that well. You have to willingly go in. Then there's all the difficulties of being in there once you're in, but at least you willingly, knowingly and willingly stepped in. So inside this container, you can work very, with enormous amount of vigor and care with the details of your life. And this work is transformative. Now, Teresa of Avila, who's a saint who reformed the Carmelite order, she wanted to go into

[15:13]

enclosure as a young woman, but she actually chose an order that wasn't, it wasn't as enclosed as she really need for her development. And from that experience of not having a full enclosure that was necessary for her meditation, she reformed the Carmelite order to make it possible for young women or any women to have this kind of enclosure for them. And she talks about, maybe some of you are more familiar with her work than I am, but she talks about the interior castles, the exploration of mind and body. She talks about this interior castles and going in to the fifth room of the castle, she talks about the only way you can get into the fifth room is, I think there's 10 different rooms, is to drop, she says, self-love and self-will.

[16:16]

And I think for our purposes, I would say, you know, self-clinging or selfishness, not that we want to drop the love for ourselves, in fact, her going into the enclosure was out of love for herself and honoring herself, but a kind of sentiment, human sentiment about self-love and clinging was what needs to be dropped. And self-will, meaning setting up standards for oneself, setting up your own, the way you want things to be, without being accountable to anyone else. So dropping those two things, you enter this castle, and she says, and then you're like a silkworm that spins the cocoon, and the transformation happens in there until you cannot be contained anymore, and you emerge as a moth or a butterfly, which, and in Greek,

[17:19]

that word is psyche, means butterfly. Now this is something that I just found out that I didn't know before about what happens inside of the cocoon, the larva, when the larva goes into the pupa stage, it becomes, it kind of melts down into like a broth. It becomes a liquid broth, and the cocoon, while it's in this liquid stage, the cocoon has to be strong enough to hold this liquid in there while it's doing its transformation work, the enclosure in the container really has to be able to hold this broth, this meltdown of human sentiment, in order for the transformation to happen, and if the enclosure or cocoon container doesn't hold, this really can't happen. So within the practice period, and especially in practice period or sasheen, or a place

[18:32]

where the form itself creates a container, a very particular enclosure or container for certain kind of work to be done, it's important that this container be held. Now in the precepts class that I've been teaching, we've been talking about the first pure precept, and the first pure precept is, there's three pure precepts. And the way we're translating them right now, I think the way Tenzin Roshi translated them, there's been a number of translations over the years, but right now is to embrace and sustain right action or right conduct, to embrace and sustain all good, and to embrace and sustain all beings. Those are the three pure precepts. And the first pure precept can also be rendered as, or maybe what I just said is a rendering or an interpretation of the Sanskrit, which is Pratimoksha Samvarasila, which is the precept

[19:38]

of discipline or action that promotes or is conducive to liberation. Moksha is liberation and Prati is to promote, Pratimoksha to promote or is conducive to liberation, and Samvara is discipline or actions that are conducive to liberation. So Pratimoksha Samvarasila, it's so much fun to say the Sanskrit, actions which are conducive to liberation, discipline. And another, the way the Chinese and Japanese translated that was to embrace and sustain regulations and ceremonies or rituals and ceremonies, regulations and rituals. So what are regulations and ceremonies or rituals? Those are actions or conduct or deportment that is conducive to liberation, that points

[20:46]

to the Dharma way rather than human sentiment, or I should say it brings it to such high relief, human sentiment, that one can drop human sentiment, can actually see what is human sentiment and what is Dharma way, and even more than that, to see how human sentiment, the arising of human sentiment, the way it comes together, the way it is dependently co-arising is the Dharma way, so that we don't try to get rid of human sentiment or suppress it or repress it or be angry at it, but we try to study it and see that how our human sentiment, how we're conditioned, how our human sentiment comes up is Dharma way. So the two come together. And this first pure precept of embracing and sustaining regulations and ceremonies, this

[21:57]

creates a container, this creates a very beautiful container, beautiful meaning conducive to liberation, although aesthetically I think some people find it very beautiful as well. A beautiful cocoon or enclosure or container to free yourself from I, me and mine and self-clinging. But it's very hard work. We may have very romantic human sentiment, romantic ideas about, oh, I'm going into the enclosure, how exotic, I'm telling all my friends, I'm going to do this special practice period, or anything that we set up for ourselves this way, whether inside or outside of the monastery. And then we get into it and it's like, what have I gotten myself into? Oh, no, five more weeks to go, you know. The kind of shine, the fireworks and the kind of excitement about it begins to kind of settle if the container is holding.

[23:01]

And you kind of liquefy into this broth and begin sort of bubbling along, bubble, bubble, at a low simmer. That's, you know, it's nothing to write home about, you know, if we could go home. Now, this mockishness, I wanted to say something about these maggots, sentiments and maggots. I was listening to NPR a couple weeks ago and they were talking about the use of maggots for actually using them in the hospital now. Maybe some of you heard this program. They're using maggots to treat certain wounds that are very hard to treat with like antibiotics and topical creams and so forth. These maggots, and this in the Civil War they found as well, the men that they couldn't get to who were left on the battlefield for days and maggots began to get into their wounds, they seemed to heal better than those people that were treated in, you know, basically unsterile situations

[24:05]

and field hospitals and so forth. And they're reestablishing this in certain hospitals, and I don't know which ones, where they're using maggots to actually, and putting them on wounds, I think certain burns and things. Because these maggots, I hope this isn't offending you, I just, anyway, I feel very friendly towards these maggots right now. These maggots on the wounds, they will eat away at the dead tissue and all, but they only eat dead tissue. They don't eat any live, healthy tissue. So they stop and they take care of the whole scene, you know, the whole wound very, very thoroughly and very cleanly and without damage to any other part of the body. So just in the same way that the maggots can work on these kind of, what's the word, necrophilous? No, this dead tissue, is there a word? Somebody

[25:10]

will tell me, I'm sure. What? Necrotic? Necrotic. This kind of dead tissue, which I think of as this kind of human sentiment, kind of old, old ways of meeting our lives, you know, cast, a cast, you know, like a bronze cast, where we always have the same attitude every time, you know, we're triggered by certain things, rather than fresh, new flesh, new life. But if we study this, just like the maggot, we can actually be awakened right there, right there, in human sentiment to Dharma way. So just remember those mockish maggots. This, so this container is the first pure precept, and it's connected with, connected

[26:18]

up with what's called the reality body of the Buddha or the Dharmakaya. This, creating this container to work on our self-clinging and our human sentiments, when we are awakened there, we realize selflessness or realize our own unstained quality. And this is the unstained, Dogen Zenji talks about unstained. Unstained means not having dualistic understanding of the way things are, self and other. And the description of what it is to be unstained to me is, you know, illuminates or elucidates this human sentiment and Dharma way. Unstained

[27:24]

is like, is meeting a person, to be unstained is to meet someone and not consider how he or she looks, not to consider his or her looks. That's being unstained. And I think human sentiment is to meet a person and begin the litany of, hmm, cute hair, I like the nose, why don't they lose some weight, da-da-da, dee-dee-dee, that kind of, what would it be like to actually meet someone and not consider what they look like? How refreshing, how liberating, how impossible it even seems, right? So right there, also in that same, this is in Only a Buddha and a Buddha, the fascicle by Dogen, Only a Buddha and a Buddha, the other part is not considering how a person looks, and the other is, and not wishing for more brightness

[28:27]

or color upon viewing flowers or the moon. So that's another, you know, it's like Thanksgiving, you know, it's like, gee, you know, I wish Uncle So-and-So wouldn't always do that, or the turkey could have been done a little bit more, or the tofu could have been, not so folly a party or something. Always wanting it to be a little different, how come it wasn't, this is human sentiment. I made my point, right? Not to be labored. So along with this human sentiment, I think we need to have forgiveness often, because we begin to see this so all over, you know, wherever we look, and it's so hard. That's why the cave, it's not romantic anymore down there. It is really hard work to look at that kind of stuff that's coming

[29:28]

up everywhere down in that green dragon's cave. And so forgiveness, having some forgiveness for ourselves and others can be very healing. And I just wanted to mention, I came upon something written by a woman named Jerry Becker, who works in the prisons. She works doing support groups in women's prisons, and she works on forgiving. She does like groups about forgiving. And she talks about the three elements of forgiving. The first is hurt, actually acknowledging that you've been hurt by someone, and to not make excuses for them, and not just tolerate that, but actually realize that you have been hurt, and feel, actually allow yourself to feel that pain. That's the first phase of this process of forgiving. If you skip over

[30:34]

that part of actually feeling how much you've been hurt and how much pain there is, it will just linger on in various ways in your body and mind. So you, and you know, making excuses for someone, often we make excuses for someone which is, it's sometimes easier we feel to make excuses for the behavior of someone, because then we don't have to actually feel how much we were hurt. Oh, they just, you know, Uncle so-and-so is that way, boys will be boys, girls will be girls, children will do that, yadda yadda. You know, we make these kinds of excuses, which jumps over our actual, the pain that's actually there. And this is actually abandoning the other person, because we're not holding them accountable, meaning

[31:34]

respecting them enough, loving them enough to actually get in there with them around something, and we also are not acknowledging what's going on with us, which can do damage, actual damage. So that's the first part of hurt. And the second part is anger, which comes up when you actually feel how much you've been hurt. There's often anger that comes right after that, often to try and get away from the pain or hide that, but to actually feel that. And in that stage, Jerry Becker talks about, you may not want to have reconciliation, or you may even want, you may even feel feelings of revenge coming up, like I want them to suffer as much as I have, and they should get their due, and I hope they deserve it, and those kinds of feelings. And the third part is the part of healing, and this is actually talked about, and maybe you know from your own experience, this is an actual physical

[32:42]

change. You actually feel when you actually have gone through the process and begin to see that person in another light, in a wider light maybe, how it is that they came to do what they did, what are the causes and conditions that surround them that allow them to heal and allow this to arise, the dependent co-arising of that action that hurt you so much. When you see in this wide, wide way, it's hard to hold blame or to point the finger. It becomes too broad, and there's an actual shift, and forgiveness occurs, and it's talked about as a bodily sensation of healing that you can feel. And that's the third part. And where I read about this, by the way, was in a women's health newsletter, because it's

[33:44]

talking about healing, the necessity for this kind of healing, for health actually, that's why she was bringing it up. So, forgiving, the word forgiving comes from perdonare, for to give, per means thoroughly or wholeheartedly, and donare means to give a gift, to thoroughly give is to forgive. So you give this gift, you are giving a gift to yourself or to another by forgiving. Thoroughly, wholeheartedly giving a gift is to pardon, and pardon is the ability to actually, without resentment, resentment and sentiment, resentment is indignation at having been offended, without resentment, dropping our resentment, we thoroughly and

[34:48]

wholeheartedly give this gift. Forgiving. And I think this is maybe part of that transformation that happens in the container, can happen, forgiving. So I wanted to end with a couple of poems, all by the same poet, this is a man named Raymond Carver, maybe some of you know him, he was an alcoholic for many years, 30, 40 years or something, and then he was told that he had cancer and he had like 6 months to live, and he just turned his life totally around, and then what happened was, he lived for another 10 years or so, he didn't die right away, so he was, during those 10 years

[35:53]

he lived in, I think, dropping human sentiment and lived in a very alive way. So this one is the poem he wrote when the doctor told him this, that he had this sickness. He said, it doesn't look good, he said it looks bad in fact, real bad, he said, I counted 32 of them on one lung before I quit counting them. I said, I'm glad, I wouldn't want to know about any more being there than that. He said, are you a religious man, do you kneel down in forest groves and let yourself ask for help? When you come to a waterfall, mist blowing against your face and arms, do you stop and ask for understanding at those moments? I said, not yet, but I intend to start today. He said, I'm real sorry. He said, I wish I

[36:57]

had some other kind of news to give you. I said, amen, and he said something else. I didn't catch and not knowing what else to do and not wanting him to have to repeat it and me to have to fully digest it, I just looked at him for a minute and he looked back. It was then I jumped up and shook hands with this man who'd just given me something no one else on earth had ever given me. I may even have thanked him, habit being so strong. And then this poem is called Gravy. No other word will do for that's what it was, gravy. Gravy these past 10 years, alive, sober, working, loving and being loved by a good woman. 11 years ago, he was told he had six months to live at the rate he was going and he was

[37:59]

going nowhere but down. So he changed his ways somehow. He quit drinking and the rest after that, it was all gravy every minute of it up to and including when he was told about well, some things that were breaking down and building up inside his head. Don't wait for me, he said to his friends. I'm a lucky man. I've had 10 years longer than I or anyone expected pure gravy and don't forget it. And this is the last one called Late Fragment. And did you get what you wanted from this life even so? I did. And what did you want? To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth. Thank you very much.

[39:12]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[41:06]

Thank you very much. [...]

[43:01]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[44:06]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[45:29]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[47:05]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[48:14]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[50:03]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[51:35]

Thank you very much. [...]

[53:04]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[54:33]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[56:06]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[57:30]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[59:03]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[60:35]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[62:06]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[63:34]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[64:54]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[66:34]

Thank you very much. [...]

[68:32]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I'm not saying that that's like a panacea or something because I think for some people the sitting is counter-indicated.

[70:13]

You know, it's really each person's own past, present, and future that has to be looked at pretty carefully. Thank you. Yes? It seems that in our attempt to have wholeness, somehow balance is important. Balances? I didn't hear what you said. That somehow balance seems to be important. Yes. And I think that some of us are taught certain things as being whole or the right way. And so we practice what we're taught. And after 10 or 15 years of practicing what we felt was wholeness, we discover that we're no longer whole. At least that's been my experience. And so I found with my own programming that I lacked discretion or proper judgment as to what is wholeness. And I didn't have the proper role model.

[71:15]

And to be more specific, I learned to work hard and to discipline myself to do anything. And I was able to do that, but my choices weren't balanced. And so I was wondering if you could talk about how to make more balanced choices. Yes. Well, what you're talking about is very prevalent, I think, where from our families of origins or whatever, we get various messages that this is okay and this isn't okay. And if you want to be in our good graces or be loved and accepted, you better do this. And the range is about like this. And anything outside of that, there's rejection and big trouble.

[72:16]

So we get very good at our range and we can be like super overachievers and get all the degrees in the world. And then we find out we're completely miserable. So it's almost like we live in this kind of box. We're kind of given this box that we think is the whole world and that we're doing great in there. We're doing really great in the box. And then somebody later on sort of erases one of the sides and it's like, whoa, there's a whole world out there, other ways of being. I remember this happened to me when actually Zentatsu Baker, who was my ordination teacher at Tassajara, I was talking about grades, I think, because I was very programmed to get good grades. I mean, there was no question. It just was unconceivable to not work hard enough in college and stuff to get A's. And I actually thought, well, of course, everybody else shares that with me. And he drew this square in the sand at Tassajara pointing to that I was living in this box where being a good person meant you got an A in humanities or something.

[73:29]

And he erased it with his foot, I remember, and it was like there is another world out there that is not dependent on whether I get an A or not. It's a bigger, broader world that really matters to me. And breaking through that was a kind of, so anyway, yes, the balance. I think part of living in that box is getting rid of anything that doesn't fit in the box. You know, all the dark stuff, the shadow, psychologically speaking, the shadow, you get rid of it. You don't want anybody to know about it, especially certain people. And it's all kind of behind you. And then at a certain point, it kind of catches up. And if you're going to live whole, meaning dark and light and a circle, you have to bring forth and deal with and acknowledge and include shadow or include the dark, include all those parts of you that you've internalized as not okay because of family.

[74:36]

And I'm sort of giving a little psychological. But anyway, in your practice, if you sit, the shadow will begin to bubble up. All these things that you've been very successful in kind of keeping back there, get back, get back, they begin to sort of come forth and sort of displaying themselves. And if you're paying attention and honoring yourself, you don't want to get rid of anything. You just want to study, study what's there. And that, I feel, the balance begins to come back, you know. But it may be at a cost, you know, because when you begin to change, those people, some people in your life may not want to, they can't change. You're changing and they're staying stuck in who they think you are and how they want to relate to you and how they expect you to relate to them. And things may happen where I'm rejected, you know, or abandoned.

[75:39]

Why? Because I'm not willing to live in a box anymore, you know. So there's a lot of pain there, too. This isn't like frolicking. I mean, actually, you do at the end, I should say, frolic, you know, joyfully with free feeling. Frolic, you know, means frog-like. Frolic is frog-like, leaping around, you know, playing. So you do get to frolic, but there's a lot of pain that has to be digested, you know, like those maggots. You know, you have to, you can't skip over that or the wound remains untended. Thank you for your question. It's very wonderful to listen to you speak of all these, I think I'm kind of romanticizing the darker side of all these subjects like we have. Sentimentality becomes just as maggots, and the vessel with this broth in it, and the imagery is very wonderful.

[76:49]

It's funny, because I kind of come and go with the practice or the concept. I have discussions a lot, and it seems to always come back to people disagreeing with the idea of wanting to get rid of all of that. They honor it as the life substance, and I didn't really quite understand how to really sort of discuss it. I think today I kind of have a new understanding that the idea of being able to sort of view it rather than get rid of it is sort of like mine. And it's kind of, you have a way of, the poetry of the words, and I kind of have an idea of making imagery, and it's sort of like building these things, actually making objects that are vessel-like and becoming about the change. But then you kind of get stuck, I wonder if it's the desire to be sort of dark, and sort of attached to the process of the change,

[77:53]

rather than becoming, you know, it's like, do I really need to do art, or do I just need to sit? Does the art really have any values or any sort of meaning to making these things, or is it just sort of unnecessary, if I just sat, would it all happen anyway? So you're making vessels and things, you're doing sculpture? I do, I have, I'm actually getting a lot of imagery sitting today. Somebody told me one time, when Alan Ginsberg first started sitting, that he wanted to sort of write all these things down, so he'd come and show him a chunk of paper, and his teacher wouldn't let any papers, I think William Burroughs was actually the person that wanted to write this stuff down. Somebody, one of the famous poets, wasn't allowed to write during sitting, because all the imagery was there, and it's so beautiful, but it's like kind of, it's all the attachment. But then, you kind of have re-addressed it in a way, it's like you're not really attached to it,

[78:55]

it's kind of like a vessel for change, sort of an evolving thing, you can kind of look at the poetry, the words, the materials, all that stuff, that isn't necessary to being, but in a way it is. Is it necessary to? To being, just to be, all that stuff is unnecessary, but then is it? Yes, well I think you've beautifully brought forth a kind of way that we end up kind of dichotomizing, is that the word, dichotomizing? And thinking like, I mean, we get letters, I remember getting a letter from this person, I'm shaving my head, I'm a vegetarian, I'm coming to the monastery, and I thought, oh no, it was so like, I've got to get rid of everything, and here I come, he lasted one week, this guy, he got here and there were regular people,

[79:57]

and there was meals, and people get an idea that they kind of veer into, I've got to give up everything, and I've got to not write poetry, and I've got to not do anything, and you can find in the scriptures things like that, in terms of rules and regulations and ceremonies conducive to liberation, or action conducive to liberation, you can find not to do singing, and not to wear ornamentation, and there's various things that you can find in the scriptures that point towards living a life that's conducive to liberation. Now, there is a tendency, or certain people have a tendency to get really caught in that, which rigidifies it and makes it so that it's just one more worldly way of being, I don't wear jewelry, I don't do this, I never sing, and then they're kind of unhappy, I'm kind of making a characterization, but anyway, this is not too far off,

[81:09]

I practice better than you, very self-righteous, I follow all the pure precepts, and I'm practicing really hard, and you're not, and that all kind of comes along with it, so the danger with not doing sculpture, I'm not going to do sculpture anymore, I'm just going to sit, you may feel very bereft, human beings actually, you can't just sit all the time, actually, you've got to, if you're going to be a healthy being, you've got to eat and eliminate, and you've got to rest, and you've got to, you know, the Sangha as the jewel, there's people in your life, but there's a kind of romantic idea of, I'm going to the mountains, and I'm going to, so, and you can also find it in scripture, so you can feed that in a certain way, so how, it's like balance again, how can you live a life that has a basis in activities conducive to liberation,

[82:11]

and right livelihood, you know, there's the Eightfold Noble Path, you know, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, how do you live a life that's infused, not only infused, that just expresses those very things just in your daily activities, so, but you may have to give it up for a while, see, that's the thing, like we've had painters and writers, and were you here at lecture last week, when Norman gave the lecture, he's a writer and a poet, and for years he didn't write so much poetry, or didn't try to balance the two, his Zen life and his poetry, and he finally just, they're just together as other Zen poets, you know, but for a time you may want to just put all your energy into sitting practice, and find out what that is, and then come back out, and do gift-bestowing hands, you know, making beautiful things.

[83:16]

Okay, did I miss something? There's a million things we could talk about, but that's very poignant. Okay, thank you. Yes? Just in answer to that, sometimes the artistic process is a meditation, it is the same sort of concentrated, so that can be seen not as separate from the scene. You know, for a number of people, like Natalie Goldberg, you know, who writes, she found her Zazen practice was expressed through her writing, and she equates them, and Suzuki Roshi in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, says the secret of all the arts is Beginner's Mind, is having, you know, when you do your art, whatever it is, to have this Beginner's Mind, which is the same as Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind,

[84:21]

that's the secret of fresh, you know, art. So yes, I think you're right. But sometimes we get very, we're very caught up, you know, in our art, in our creativity, and it's very bound up, and we're really identified with it in a certain way, it's very different from this kind of Beginner's Mind feeling. So sometimes we have to settle that first, before we can do it in that way, or express ourselves that way. Yeah? Just one thing you said, you just sort of paraphrased, and I was just going to make this, what you already stated, or particularly earlier in the lecture was just the idea of these, of the maggots being, as this sort of, you were feeling friendly with them, and sort of there's a, there's a beauty to the attachment of making these things, but I think where you were going with this, that the vessel is then,

[85:25]

I can't remember, what's the word, sentiment become maggots, there's another word. Mockish. Mockish sentiment, mockish maggots. Okay, and that's sort of like the connection between the beauty of the attachment. It's like, it's okay to have that attachment of making to go forward. Exactly, the attachment itself is an occasion to study and realize yourself. So, when we think of the attachments as like, I want to get rid of and get away, and I hate you, you know. So I can work with jealousy and depression and drunkardness and any of that, right? You can actually sort of relish it, for instance, and realize that it's an attachment, and be in that moment, be drunk, and be okay with it, and then realize that it's a time period and not maybe a lifetime, hopefully not, you know, maybe. I think you have to be very careful. That's right, I know, yes. You have to handle, you know, certain states of mind, I guess, or certain activities are very... Did I talk about this in lecture, about the kushala grass?

[86:33]

Did I mention that? Kusa, I talked about it in the class this morning. The Buddha had his followers gather this grass called kusa grass, K-U-S-A, for meditation cushions to sit on, and it's very sharp, both edges are very sharp, and you have to gather it very, very carefully. And the word kushala means wholesome or skillful, where you gather the grass and don't cut yourself and kind of hurt yourself for this meditation cushion. A kushala is not wholesome or unskillful. So there are certain activities that are kind of... You have to handle very carefully, with great care, or you get hurt. In terms of the precepts, if you are drinking in order to change your state of mind and intoxicate yourself,

[87:34]

which is basically escaping, intoxicate is poisoning yourself, escaping from your life, trying to find another alternative to what actually is going on for you, that's seen as not upholding that precept. But there are occasions when you can have a glass of beer with somebody, or champagne, or whatever, and you're not doing it in order to change your state of mind, or you're just responding to the wedding festivities. That's the thing about fooling yourself. You have to be very clear about your motivation and your intention, or you're just kidding yourself about your practice and your life. But as you said, what you said before, I agree with that. Anything can be an occasion for waking up, but you have to study it. You can't just assume, well, I'm going to go do this, and that might be an occasion.

[88:34]

You have to put all your effort into looking at it, studying it, and not assuming anything, really. Yeah, it includes the dark, what we usually call the dark. Yes? Oh, you were about to say something. No? It was addressed? Okay. Okay, well, if you want to talk about it any further. And to look at it objectively with your head in it. And it's a big transition, but I'll be doing it for the rest of my life. Just normally, and right now, I'm a lot less materialistic,

[89:41]

because I don't need the things that I had for a while. I needed the things that got people to be discontented about it. But I wouldn't be able to take over that. And to start off with nothing, you know, I wouldn't learn. I wouldn't give it up. Only myself. Yes. So because you had it, and thoroughly, and worked with it, you see that you can give it up, that that's not what makes you, that's not what's going to make you happy, and you can let go of it. Yes. Oh, really? Well, Suzuki Roshi, who is the founder of Zen Center, said that Americans, Westerners, Americans, I think he was talking about, young people are very, because for many people, their material life is pretty well taken care of,

[90:50]

they have a very, they have a sense of, that that's not where they're going to, he was dealing with, or talking with, you know, hippies in the 60s, who had kind of made a, you know, it was a pretty conscious effort to drop things and to live simply and all that, but he felt that because people had the material world taken care of pretty well, they were able to drop that and see what was really important, that particular condition. I think it's pretty hard to give the Dharma to somebody or talk with somebody about sitting Zazen when they're, you know, don't have a roof over their head or enough food, and, you know, well, why don't you just sit, you know, study it, right? It's kind of, can be kind of cruel, even. So once somebody's taken care of and fed, and then, then maybe they're ready. And that's what I said is just an example.

[91:54]

I think there can be examples where someone was very ripe and could hear the Dharma in very difficult straits as well, but, yeah. No, I think because of the rain I can barely hear you. Would you mind talking a little louder? You appreciate it a lot when people... Yes. Thank you. Yes. You described that model of healing.

[92:57]

And I have a question regarding the stages. You know, first, I certainly understand healing the pain and really getting in touch with that pain, and then the anger that's often there as well. I had a spiritual teacher once say to me, because I was looking for closure and forgiveness, trying to speed up the process, I know. It wasn't working out. And he reframed it and said, don't look at this situation as this man has hurt you, or this letter he has sent you has hurt you very much, it's very hurtful. Look at it from the reframe that you have allowed yourself to be hurt. Have you run across that?

[93:42]

@Text_v004
@Score_JH