That is known as a karma obstacle. And this became very clear to me, and this belongs to the topic of what we do here, when I went to Los Angeles and caused a riot, which made me very happy, because there was the question of the karma obstacles, why should it be so difficult in this part of the world to get competent teachers? You see, why should that be so? And this, in the meantime, has been confirmed, because I am scheduled for a debate with our dear friend, Ellen Watts. So I spent $8.39 on buying his life, and I paid $200 for the lecture, so I get that back.

[01:04]

And I must say, a more trumpery character is very difficult to find, you see. More what? Oh, trumpery. Oh, no, trumpery. I don't understand. I'm not a trumper. That's the English. Trumper. You know, well, you see, I'm sorry, you see, I don't know American. I'm too late. You know, a trumped-up charge, you see. Oh, yeah, bridge, right. A trumped-up charge. No, a trumped-up charge, you see. If I say, you burned the house opposite, which I hope you didn't, then this would be, if you didn't do it, a trumped-up charge, you see. Yes, he's a trumpery character. Now, then, you see, we have in English, I mean, that happens all the time, you see, but I mean, I'm 60 and I can't learn another language, you see. Now, you have a person who is fake. He is called a trumpery character. A trumpery character. He's completely fake. I mean, there's no honesty in him to begin with and to end with, you see. And I have the most extraordinary thing. I mean, if he should face the knife, I will take this with me, you see.

[02:08]

Do I understand, Mr. So-and-so? So therefore, now, I said to those people that on the whole, the so-called preceptors you have got here are a lot of charlatans, you see, and I mentioned him, you see. And this is your own fault because you are a worthless lot. And just as, oh, they brought in Nixon, you see, and so I said that every, each country has got the president which he deserves, you see. And likewise, each community has the teachers which he deserves. So that is karma obstacles, you see. I don't know whether you understand the polite way in which I express myself on this. And therefore, we have in the theosophical movement, in the theosophical movement, we have the saying, when the time is right or when you are ready, the guru appears.

[03:10]

So that is karma obstacles. Now, you may say something. Now, when you have me over two hours, precisely, my wife is waiting for me and you know that in America what women are, the power of women. My wife is getting infected with it, so I must be there on time. Do you want to ask me questions? Yes, I have a question unrelated to what you were just saying. Yeah. Is that all right? Yeah, no problem. You say anything, I mean. In the various stages of condensation or distillation of the Prajnaparamita literature, for example, we have one collection of yours, Prajnaparamita, in various lengths. Yes, that's right. Until it gets down to one letter. Yes. Yeah. And would you have some comment about where this particular version, the Heart Sutra, is as a condensation or distillation

[04:16]

and also the great mantra comes in there too, towards the end of the Heart Sutra. Can somebody run off and get me the wind bell, please? The wind bell? The current wind bell. Yes, I can do that. That's good. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you, but there is something very relevant to your question. Oh, here it is. He has got it. Okay, thank you. Told you it's you. Here it is, yeah. Now, you see, I mean, sorry to interrupt you, but I am an Aries, you see. I mean, I already talked before, I think. Now, there is the great mantra, yes. Yeah. Yeah. No. And the role of the mantra as somehow representing or the inner essence of a sutra. Good, I know what you mean.

[05:19]

And sometimes this particular version of the Heart Sutra that we chant too here, Yeah. Now, you see, there are now two points. The one is that the Heart Sutra is unique in that it contains everything about the Prajnaparamita. There is nothing which is left out. All other sutras only deal with separate topics. But the essence of the matter, I mean, this is the essence, you see, of the matter is in there and there is nothing about the Prajnaparamita which you do not find in it. And you see, he had, you know, there is this long commentary of mine,

[06:20]

which must be floating about here. There it is. And you see, everything under the sun is being brought into this, you see. No limit to it. I mean, the limit, the patient of these poor, demented women in the Buddhist society, you have to type it, you see. I mean, it could go on and on and on and on, you see. And this is therefore one of the greatest masterpieces which the human mind has ever created. I mean, I regard it as almost the perfect, most perfect achievement of the human mind, you see, this Heart Sutra. So therefore, there is nothing in the Prajnaparamita teaching which is not in there. And there is no other Prajnaparamita Sutra which contains all the teaching. I mean, see, the Diamond Sutra contains all sorts of stuff about all sorts of things. But the essence of the teaching is not in it. And likewise, I mean, I could go over 40 of them, each one of them, you see. It doesn't matter. So that's the first thing. So therefore, it is a text which is so holy that the text as such is a mantra, the whole lot.

[07:27]

Om namo bhagavad-gayaya prajnaparamitaya, you see. That's just the Arya-Valuti. So I do it in Sanskrit, you see. But then, you see, now, owing to the immense skill in means, now this is still concentrated in one extra mantra, you see. This is the Gathe, Gathe, Paha, Gathe, Paha, Sangre, Bodhisattva, you see. And there I would wish that you people here, if you ask me to teach you something, I can be rude to you, should show respect for mantras. You see, a mantra is a thing which about a thousand years, it took a thousand years of Buddhist brooding to find this Gathe, Gathe, Paha, Gathe, Paha, Sangre, Bodhisattva, you see. Now then, if I may say so, we have this twice here. And once you translate it as gone, gone to the other shore, beyond the other shore, Bodhisattva.

[08:39]

I do better, I do, I certainly do it better. Gone, gone, oh, well, of course, I know my own books better. I mean, gone, gone, gone beyond, gone altogether beyond. Oh, what an awakening all here. Now you improve on that. You see, gone, you see, I mean, just think of it. I mean, gone, Gathe, Paha, Gathe, gone beyond, not piffled like gone to the other shore, I mean beyond the Paha, Gathe, you see. On, Gathe, Gathe, Paha, Gathe, Paha, Sangre, Gathe, you see. Gone altogether beyond, because you have Paha beyond, Sangre is altogether. I mean, you know something, you know you don't, it is so, you see. And Gathe, you see. And then you have Bodhi. Well, of course, the easiest translation, of course, to call it Bodhi, you see, but it means, oh, what an awakening, so locative, no, vocative, vocative, vocative. And then Svaha, of course, I must admit that my all here, you see, is rather feeble.

[09:44]

But it is, I mean, it's something, at least. Now, you see, that's an absolute literal, which also, if I may kindly draw your attention to it, reproduces the resum of it. Gone, gone beyond, gone altogether beyond, but what an awakening all here, you see. Gathe, Gathe. I mean this, gone, gone to the other shore, beyond the other shore. Bodhi, Svaha is very poor. But now it shows total irreverence to the holy scriptures and to the holy. I mean, this is about, I mean, what the Jews, I mean, they have some, oh, we have plenty of, I mean, they might, the holy of holies, which nobody is allowed to do here, you see. And there, on the same page, they print the same thing, and then they have gone, gone, gone beyond, now that shows sense, beyond, beyond, Bodhi, Svaha. Now, you see, if Parasangati is here beyond, beyond, and here it is beyond the other shore, and in fact it is altogether gone beyond, it shows, you see, the point of the mantra is that it is definitive. You see, it is fixed. It is no longer in a fluid state.

[10:48]

You don't seem to believe, but it's so holy, you see, you must not touch it. And this shows lack of respect, in my view, lack of respect to the holies of the holy, to print it twice with two translations, both of them wrong, and both of them different. You defend? We don't defend anything. Nor do I attack anything. I only give the appearance of doing so. So therefore, you see, now, this is Gathe, Gathe, Svaha, Gathe, Parasangati, Bodhi, Svaha, you see. And, I mean, my translation is really a good one, and I absolutely don't see why people muck about these things. I mean, once you have a good translation, why don't you stick to it, you see? And it is just untrue to translate it as beyond, beyond, you see what I mean? Because you leave out the gone, I mean, Gathe, you have got the Gathe there. We may leave it out. Blasphemy. Now, what is the purpose of mantras in Buddhism, in Mahayana Buddhism?

[11:56]

So we will start, leave this out for the moment, and start with another one, which is the most famous of all, Hey, I haven't got it. It's in the other jacket. Why is it in the other jacket? Because I took it with me to Los Angeles, that's right. Now, so I can't bing it here. Now, if you have now Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum, Now then, Om Mani Padme Hum is translated by half-wits, as Om, the jewel is in the lotus, and because of the obsession of present-day Americans with sex, the lotus, no, what is the, the jewel of whom, yes, this is the jewel, the lotus, and this is completely certain, you see, and it is Om Mani Padme Hum,

[12:58]

Mani Padme is one word, there is no jewel in the book, it's all childish, but Mani Padme is one word, and it means, O you, it's a vocative, you know, addressing, you see, they have a vocative, O you who hold the jeweled lotus, you see, and this is an invocation to Avalokiteshvara, who in China is the Quan Yin, you see, Avalokiteshvara, and who is the bodhisattva of mercy, of compassion, and this goes back to the last creative period of Indian Mahayana Buddhism, which was the period of the Pala dynasty, the Pala dynasty, which is about 800 or 900 A.D. in Bengal, and we have very many statues left from that time, where you have Avalokiteshvara, and then at his right-hand side, through the arm it goes,

[14:02]

there is a lotus which has jewels on it, which to us is rather grotesque, I must admit, but to Indian taste, I mean, this is just Indians. So do you follow this? And this is an invocation of a personified spiritual force called Avalokiteshvara, and Om Mani Padme Hum, means Om Mani Padme Hum, you see, the Tibetans can't say Padme, they only say Pee Moo, when they meet themselves. Om Mani Padme Hum is an invocation, it says, Om means the reconnection of the absolute, of the one, you see, the one, that's right, and then you have Mani Padme, that is, who holds the jewel lotus, and then you have Hum, which means to help with everything and everybody, and Hum is black and disperses the evil forces, you see, so that is the explanation of Om Mani Padme Hum.

[15:03]

Now, what you are supposed to do is, when you do Om Mani Padme Hum, is not to slumber only, but to try to visualize the bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara, you see, it's an exercise in visualizing, and the usual form in the Buddhism of Tibet, where we know this, is the forearmed Avalokiteshvara, who has got two hands like this, to worship Amitabha, who is up here, and then he has the rosary on the right, and the book, the Prajnaparamita, on the left, of Vaisakasana, you see, you visualize that. And then you do this, now the point of it is the unvarying repetition, that's why I was so cross with this, you see, you must have no variation, it's permitted. Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum, and the most holy of the lot was the Dishon Rinpoche in Seattle,

[16:08]

he did 10,000 a day, you see, Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum, and every 10 times he clicked, and I noticed this when I got him seats in the opera, and the best seats, of course, are only good enough for him, and we had pull as the university, which nobody, and they were so expensive, nobody could possibly take them, you see, and there he was, and then it was a complete vacuum round, because throughout, what is Mimi, La Boheme, you see, he just looked at himself with amazement, his mind could not follow this, and so he went just on and on, and every 10 times, you see, Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum, and then click like that, and so there was a vacuum over him, how could you explain to him that this does not add to the enjoyment of the people who wanted to hear Mimi, there's preaching that she was dying from TB. So, now, now what is the purpose of this? You see, this is, we are now moving into the world of magic,

[17:10]

which is essential to Buddhism, I mean, it's just childishness to take that away, that by the unvarying repetition of the holy sound, accompanied by at least some attempt at visualizing, you increase the sum total of compassion in the world and in yourself. You see, the Om Mani Padme Hum condenses compassion. Oh, my God. And this is Egyptian magic, I mean, we all go back to Egypt, Egyptian magic, and the mere repetition of it, this is like in the Catholic Church, ex operato, you see, I mean, the mass works, whether the man is a scoundrel or not, ex operato means just, and then the body of, the spirit becomes the body of Christ, and then the mind becomes, and this is not because he is a holy man or anything, but just, it's the Egyptian magic. Now, we have that, I mean, there's no way, at least in Buddhism, I have understood,

[18:14]

you see, the essential form of it. So, therefore, have you got this, Mr. Allokitin's father, you want to say anything about Om Mani Padme Hum? Now, likewise, is an invocation, it's again evocative, evocative is the invocation of the Prajnaparamita, O you who have gone. And what you must try to do is to visualize the Prajnaparamita. And therefore, now, the theory, you see, I only answer your question, is that this is done so cunningly that if you just unvaryingly repeat, then thereby you increase the sum total of wisdom in yourself and in the world, just as the venerable Rinpoche there increases the sum total of compassion by saying Om Mani Padme Hum. You see, that is the magical form of Buddhism,

[19:16]

and that is one of the great difficulties which you have if you take your Buddhism from Japan, because the Japanese Buddhists are apt to be ashamed of the magical heritage of Buddhism, because they have been licked by the white man to such an extent since 1853 that they just bow down all the time and grin too. Of course, venerable sir, I don't believe in any of this at all. I wouldn't believe in astrology. No, we do not believe in astrology. We do not believe in magic. We do not believe in reincarnation. Oh no, the white man doesn't believe in anything. So we do not believe in that. And so they produce you a sort of white man's gospel from which everything which might offend you is taken out, and that, in my view, is one of the more uncharitable reasons why Zen Buddhism is catching on so much, because it's a sort of pre-digested form, you see. It's like little fledglings. The mothers have gone on and now regurgitated it into your mind. But quite apart from that, you see,

[20:17]

have you got my answer, apart from the jokes? So you see, therefore, this is unique. This is the only mantra. You see, the original mantra, of course, if I give you the original mantra, was not half as good. The original mantra is in the second chapter of the Ashtasasrika, at the end somewhere. 34, page 34, I think. I don't know. And that was in Sanskrit, ahud dharma ahud dharma ahud dharmasya dharmata, which is, O the dharma, O the dharma, O the dharma-hood of dharma, you see. The dharma-hood, the dharma-ness. This is an abstraction, you see, philosophy. Ahud dharma ahud dharma ahud dharma-sya dharmata, you see. But then, this is too abstract. And therefore you will find that in the Heart Sutra,

[21:19]

the teaching, instead of Avalokiteshvara, that you have the fusion of compassion with wisdom. Whereas this ahud dharma ahud dharma ahud dharma-sya dharmata was just philosophers sitting there in the woods and brooding, you see. I mean, does that give some sense to you? Yes, yes. I'm also wondering about, I'm sure there are certain classes of Buddhist sutras, which are meant for what you were, say, outlining once as memorizing, studying, and trying to understand. Yeah. And others which are, more frankly, avowedly mantra-y. That's right. And apply a different kind of practice, a mantra-y kind of practice. And the other, which is more ordinary kind of intellectual, memorizing, studying, and trying to understand. That's right. Now, the Heart Sutra is functioning in both respects.

[22:23]

No, but I mean, it is so obvious that you must try to understand it. I mean, I've lost a girl who thinks that a general can be converted easily. Yes, we have that, you see. I don't get over that. You see that there is, I mean, in this sutra you are supposed to actually understand the words. This is a form of Buddhism. But it is so obvious that it's completely above your head. I mean, here you are. I mean, let's take anything. I mean, form is empty. It's very empty. This form is obvious. Well, it is here. I mean, da-da-da-da. Right. Form is empty. It's very empty. This is form. You see, I mean, before we saw that there is no other than form, and so on, and all sorts of things, you see. But I mean, it is that you understand intellectually, even if you are a philosopher as I was, who started as a philosopher when I was 13, you have never done anything useful in all this life. You understand 3% or 5%, isn't it? The remainder is just the intonation

[23:25]

of the dharma word coming into sound, isn't it? That is why the intonation, you see, has a force in itself because it carries a weight completely beyond your comprehension. No? I mean, I know all these boys and kids here whom I get in my classes. They can tell me all about form. It's empty, isn't it? Now, this is just laughable. They have never thought about it for a moment. Otherwise, they wouldn't be saying such silly remarks. Because, I mean, one of the things about emptiness is that emptiness is not just an empty hole, as you seem to imagine, but emptiness is everything which form is not, you know. So, therefore, a thing is what it is not, you see. I mean, this requires quite a lot of thinking. And also, I mean, what would we say? I mean, in practice, we do not behave as this is. It would be very funny if we would do something. So, therefore, you see, here you have, I mean, there we have, even in Mahayana, you have the open world, you see, a revelation, you see.

[24:27]

A supernatural revelation which contains all the truth which there is possible. But which is very largely, I mean, if you have some common sense. I mean, because beyond your comprehension, I mean, it is. I mean, I have a sort of belief that form is empty. But, I mean, this is all there is to it, isn't it? I mean, I can't explain the words. But, in fact, I mean, feeling is emptiness and emptiness is feeling. I mean, I had a lot of pain with this thing which they cut me about. And I wasn't so sure that this was only emptiness, you know what I mean. Because, you see, now, if you actually want to learn something for a change, then the mere fact that you are here makes it completely impossible for you to comprehend it. And this has been worked out in the Prajnaparamita in detail in the 12th chapter, I think, of the large sutra. The large sutra, nobody has the large sutra.

[25:30]

It's on the stages. There is something on the stages, you see. And there you see that you can understand this really. I mean, apart from having sort of weak limbs, you see. Now I see through the glass darkly and so on. On what is known as the seventh stage, when you have no physical body anymore. You see, the official term for it is you have an apparitional body. But as long as you have a physical body, you can't do it. And, therefore, later on, you see, in the Tantras, they got a bit impatient and said, Good God, I mean, am I supposed to wait till the seventh stage? So they gave themselves a diamond body, you see, the elementarium body. And good luck to them, you see. You see, I mean, what I'm trying to explain to you is that the full understanding of this sutra

[26:30]

is incompatible with our existence as physical human beings living in America or wherever we live. It is completely incompatible with it. Because if we would understand, we wouldn't have been so daft to be reborn here in this hellhole. Don't you see that? So, therefore, you see, the greatest weight of it is carried in the song, in the chanting. And you got only... I mean, I think that St. Paul put it that nicely. Through the glass darkly, you see. I mean, intellectually, I can run all this off wonderfully, but, ooh, there's a lot, a lot, if I really think about it, where I begin to wonder. It comes very close to the kind of sound that's specific of the Hindu. Yeah. But you see, you can now not, as you see in that book, say that this is an influx of Hinduism into Buddhism,

[27:31]

because in the oldest texts which we have, you see, there's just one text which is really old. And that is a Pali text called the Suttanipata. And there already, prajna, or panja, wisdom, is called the mantra. The mantra. And that goes as near the time of the Buddha as anything does. But, I mean, what you have to stress is that this is not by the education. You see, you all have, your minds have been very largely damaged by compulsory education, you see, which has put into your head a disbelief in medicine. And so this must appear to you very strange. Whereas, thank God, the Buddhists whom we are speaking of had no compulsory education. There was no such thing. So their minds cannot be spoiled. People who brought Zen to Japan, though, had a pretty heavy Shingon overwash, actually,

[28:33]

Good God, didn't they? So they had a certain amount of, in the old days anyway, they had a certain amount of know-how about the magic end of it that took quite a while to get rid of. It took quite a while to wear it out. I would have thought that the old Buddhists in Japan would say, well, what is he talking about? This is so obvious. Well, he wastes time on it, you see. But the point is that what you got is people who have been beaten black and blue by the white man since 1853, when the white man came and invaded them for the first time. And they have been defeated again and again and again. Have you visited Koryo-san? No, no. In Japan? But still. It's still a magical center. Oh, there is a magical center. They retire there, you see. It's very difficult for them. But then, if they speak to the white man, they have this attitude, oh, we don't believe that at all. We know all about science. I mean, you can get it all the time on astrology. I mean, any Tibetan, you see,

[29:34]

ah, what about it, you see, and you had once experienced some profundities and vast speculations on what you were in your last lives and so on. This is just small talk with them, you see. With the Japanese, you never get anywhere at all, you see. They just giggle. I mean, the Japanese embarrassingly giggles, you see. Oh, it's not quite true. You see, he goes on to all remember that Zen is the revenge, you see, of the yellow man to the white man, you see. He sends it back to you, that you have destroyed their culture to the best of your ability. And he resents this immensely. These youth barbarians should walk away. I mean, you burn down their houses. You just do as if you did absolutely nothing. And so he tries to think, now, by what magic do these bastards, they come here and push us around, you see. And then they hear science. Things like science. Computers. Democracy. You see, there was, I mean,

[30:35]

I mean, if you once read the Meiji Revolution, I mean, it's so interesting to see what kind of people you actually deal with, you see. So, the Western barbarians, what can we learn? They have got science. They have got locomotives. They have a code of law. So, therefore, they went La France, got the Code Napoléon, and translated it, you see. And then they were told that, they sent them great experts, came to teach them the Code Napoléon, you see, this was needed to beat the white man. And then they were told, you can't have torture. They said, ah, who would ever confess? There was no torture at all, you see. And so they went on with it, and they said, oh, this Code Napoléon, I mean, we don't want any, of course we want the Code Napoléon, but our practice methods, we always get confessions out of these people, you see, quite easily. And it took the French, they threatened to travel home until the Japanese gave in on this torture.

[31:36]

Because they thought, I mean, we keep our old practice methods, and thus the white man's magic is added to it. So there you have a nation, which has, to some extent, lost its soul, and that is why they are very often so paranoid, you see, if you meet them. I know you seem to all love the Japanese so much that you disapprove of them. But they are paranoid, because there are two souls in them. And that is why they have given up... Two souls? Two souls in them, you see. Two souls. Soul. Very good English word, soul. In Buddhism, we have no soul, you know. Anatta. But, I mean, they have got more than no soul, they have got two souls in them. No soul is there. I mean, they are very Japanese. They are funny a lot. I mean, they are invariably funny, because, I mean, except him, oh, turn him over. He is not Japanese. But, well, they are funny a lot. I mean, they are very funny a lot, because they try to fit in Mr. Whiteman's prejudices.

[32:41]

They do. I mean, let's say, we will not mention him. You see, one of your recent visitors, a Japanese friend, that's the way of speaking, comes and wants to teach us something at the University of Berkeley, you see. So I, in the kindness of my heart, invite him and show him to the fellow professors, and we look at him. Now, then, it turns out that his entire effort is to prove to us that when Dogen talked about the Buddha nature, what he meant was what Hegel and Heidegger say in German books. And you just look at him and say, now, they are not all the same, you see. Oh, he was some kind of prophet, you see. So did you then go to Germany to study Heidegger? He said, oh, no, I learned about Heidegger in Kyoto. Now, if I say so, if you learn about Heidegger in Kyoto, you don't learn anything, because it's the most Teutonic of all philosophers, you see.

[33:43]

I mean, it's all in German. And if you don't know German, I have a funny idea. Now, you see, he thought that he had at last one respectability in the eyes of the white man if it turns out that his native religion is the latest faith of the white man, which in his somewhat demented mind is Hegel and Heidegger. You're following that? So therefore, you see, what you get is a religion which is stripped of those aspects of it which are likely to displease the white man. And therefore, this magical side, which is so very greatly emphasized by the form of Buddhism which I am doing, the Tibetan form of Buddhism, has got lost there to some extent, but it existed in the past. I mean, it was just childish to say it didn't. I mean, good Lord. In fact, what I am trying to get is an article by Zvi Verblowski, which he sent me,

[34:44]

which is an absolute masterpiece when a Jew, you see, a complete Orthodox Jew from the University of Jerusalem, who has no allegiance to all these superstitions of the East, compares the Zen Buddhism of, say, 1700 in Japan with what is being taught as Zen Buddhism now. I mean, it is hilarious, you see, to see what got lost. And that is Zvi Verblowski. You don't like it, so you can answer back. Compares the Zen to what? To what is taught you as Zen Buddhism. He compares what actually the superstitious Japanese believe before the white man kicks them around. Yes. Hakuin and other Japanese teachers used to complain bitterly about their students using the Nembutsu in between vows.

[35:45]

Yes. When they were supposed to be meditating, they were off in a corner telling their beads. And he kept complaining and saying they weren't supposed to do that. That they weren't supposed to just do Zazen. Yes, there is Zazen. So I have given you the answer which I wanted to give and made it as offensive as possible so that you can remember it forever after, you see. I understand, but I feel that answer is necessary. In that I think that what we're doing here is pretty much close to that already. Yes. The new note which you have introduced is the possibility that some of these things actually mean something in a rather ordinary sense. What? Oh, like the obstacles or the stanzas or that you can actually go back and read a book and try to understand it or something like that. Think about it. Because we don't. He says we have the magic side already, actually. That's what we do have. Being sort of transplanted Europeans anyway

[36:48]

with your own feeling of magic and so forth. Yes, you have the magic side. We recycle tires sometimes. Yes, I know. Utterly, no. Actually, you can... But you see, there, you see, I mean, all this is... Well, let us go to the competition. Who are I? The Zen Mountain. Now, there I was. I had to speak for me. And I froze to death because they had pages and pages and pages. All, you see, Chinese words. There are no words. You see, I've got little syllables. Oh, oh. And this went on for about three quarters of an hour. And I wanted to speak and go home. You see, I went toot, toot, toot. And that is the Zen Mountain Center. This is a competition down there. The Gold Mountain.

[37:48]

The Gold Mountain. And then, you see, now, nobody knows in Chinese. I mean, it's this kind of Chinese. Now, in Chinese, you see, there is no Chinese because each province pronounces it differently. And this is quite instructive to find the province where this habit comes from. You see, but it's not anything else. Now, then, you see, the question is, I asked them then, and I think that is the crux of the matter, why, if you do things like this, what is wrong with Ave Maria, gratia plena, dominus ticum, benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tu, Jesus, Sancta Maria Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostre, amen. Because you don't understand that just as little. Yes, you understand this gibberish.

[38:51]

I had to listen to it for three quarters of an hour. But what is the difference? You see, the difference is that when you do the Ave Maria, gratia plena, you see, I don't know that in English. Then, if you are a good one, you visualize the Virgin Mary and visualize the stations of the cross. I mean, this is not just a lot of old... I mean, there are rosaries, you see. I haven't got mine, so I can't show you. They have special... They are quite works of art, you see. And then you click, click, click, and so on. And then you come to a click, and this is the first station of the cross, you see. And then you come to a second station. And you are supposed to think of the sufferings of Christ at that station, that station, and he takes the cross. And then somebody takes it away from him, Joseph of Abimathea, and so on. So, in fact, you reproduce in yourself the whole drama of the crucifixion

[39:53]

while you have this... But it is not... You see, what I am trying to explain to you, it is not the mere sound, but it is the visualization which is the essence of the Meta in the air. I mean, everybody knows that the Ave Maria can be also done as a complete superstitious practice. I mean, from old to intrusion. You see, there are things like that. But there are the more educated ones, or the more pious ones, who really do this, you see. And each time go... I mean, they have, say, 200 of them, or 300. I mean, all this needs a quantity to be done. Reproduce in themselves the sufferings of Christ laid down in the stations of the cross. I mean, I can't reproduce them alone. So likewise now, if you have... You are supposed to visualize the pleasure parameter. And I can do that, you see. There are a few things I can do. Is that magic? No, that is magic. But it is magic

[40:53]

with a spiritual edge to it. You see, what I am trying to explain is not speaking ill of you all the time, but of other people too. To repeat for three quarters of an hour a-ho, a-hi, a-hai, a-hai. When you have no absolutely idea where the words begin or end, I mean, you must have a look at it. That is a superstitious practice. It is not even a magical practice. It is just a superstitious practice because, I mean, these Western barbarians are good for nothing, so at least we give them a lot of syllables to repeat. Now, I am trying to educate the Western barbarians to see this ceases to be a practice if you visualize it. I mean, for instance... Dr. Guesser had a thing about intention also, hadn't he, in his book about Naropa? That is one of the other things, besides the visualization, you have the... There is intention. You have a special intention. Yes, the intention, you see. You have, I mean, when you have the Om Mani Padme Hum,

[41:53]

you have the intention of benefiting living beings, you see, and then you go on with it. I mean, you bring it up. I do Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum. Now, dear Edward Kahn, whenever did you ever benefit anybody? Are you benefiting these people by coming down and being rude to them? Well, we hope so. Whenever do you? What could you do? Do you ever give any money away? Do you ever give food to the hungry? No. Do you ever visit the sick? No, if I can't help it. Do you ever do anything, you see? So, you see, what I'm trying to... You have to go specifically all about actually benefiting, and in fact, I mean, I never benefited anybody except myself, really, to be honest with you. But the meditation is to go over how you can benefit them, you see. You must make it detailed. Likewise with the cessations of the cross, you make it detailed, and then they gave him the, what's it called, the vinegar, and so on, and so on,

[42:54]

and so you go one after the other, you see. And you do that again and again and so it becomes a part of your being. But you do something which has body to it, doesn't it? Well, it's just pa-pa-pa-pa-pa, I mean, this kind of bingo-bungo, you see. It leads to nothing, at least that's my opinion, you see. I told them that, whatever they may think of it. And, you see, Ave Maria, it is different, you see, that you have not only the sound, but you have, and then you see, you have, for instance, I mean, if you know a bit of Latin, you see Ave Maria, and then the last one, you see, Sancta Maria Mater Dei, you see, Ora Ponovis, Spectro Resum, Et in Boa, Ora Marti Nostra, you see. And then you come, you think, which means in English, of course, we don't have that, Sancta Maria Mater Dei, Holy Mary, the Mother of God, Ora Ponovis, pray for us sinners, now and in the hour of our death. You see, then you must ask, then you must come at it, again, concrete. Now, suppose I was dying. What earthly good would you do to me if these virgin Mary's would pray for me? I mean, this is the concrete way of looking at it, you see.

[43:55]

Well, it is of a world, you see, that we are in. And then it ceases to be a thoughtless, magical practice, you see. I mean, you have the sound, but the sound in this gibberish, which they are reading there, you see, and you may do the same thing, has no magical power. You see, there are holy languages and non-holy languages. I mean, the Catholic Church is committing suicide at the moment, abolishing the Mass in Latin. I mean, these people are just insane. Mara, the evil one, has taken over, you see. I mean, the Holy Church has existed for about nearly 2,000 years with this, you see, and now they try to please everybody by producing a rather bad translation in their local languages, and that one causes doubts, you see, I mean, if you have it in your language. But in any case, there are holy languages and other languages. A holy language is Latin. Greek is a wonderful language. Sanskrit is a very holy language. Chinese is not, you know. It has never was, you see. You always find that if they really feel holy, they bring a lot of Sanskrit into it, you know.

[44:56]

It is not so, but I mean, you may think differently. But the point is that it should be the basis of a concrete meditation. And if you have, I mean, the compassion, you don't always see a few compassionate losses or filthy mob I have the misfortune to live with. But I say to myself, now, what do I ever do for anyone? I'm a halfway seal to my wife. Do I ever make coffee in the morning? No. A slight contention. And so on. When have I ever been helpful to anyone? And then you see, after now you're doing this, you see, you are the barren, you know, it's called a barren brah. Perhaps you might improve yourself and think of something. Now, likewise, you see, if you have now gathe, gathe pa, gathe pa, bodhisattva, you see, then I have, in the kindness of my heart, given you the five stages of meditation on emptiness. You see, you again must make it concrete. You see, you have the sound. But in addition, it must go deeper, you see.

[45:58]

And if you have gathe, gathe, I mean, you have, why in the hell do you have gathe twice? I mean, you have these people nothing to do, you see. And here, this I can only recommend to everybody, is the five stages of meditation on emptiness, you see. So in, uh, Buddhist thought in India? No, in Buddhist thought in India, I have done that again with lovely sort of, uh, that's easy, you see, you get it there. And I have got it in greater detail. In the, um, Aryan path, it's up there. So it's a visualization that accompanies the prajnaparamita mantra, the stages of meditation, or are they actual? No, no, you are, I think you are too. I mean, I only say, see, I mean, what I think, I mean, there's authority. Something will turn up, you see. But you have the visualization. Now, likewise, you can, I have got absolutely wonderful painting of the

[47:00]

prajnaparamita from Sikkim. Now, you are having the karma, you see, that I, being, I mean, somehow sold on this, it turns up, you see, I mean, who ever gets a thing like this from Sikkim with the prajnaparamita on it, when everybody says it barely exists, you see, but I have it, you see. And so you visualize the prajnaparamita, and this produces the effect of light around you. You have that in many forms of mysticism, that you have light, you see, light, because it's the yellow, gold, you see. In terms of the mantra, is there any change in each stage of the mantra? A change in, a corresponding change in the visualization? Or does the visualization of prajnaparamita stay the same and gone, gone, gone beyond,

[48:01]

gone completely beyond? Oh no, you see, I mean, if you look at it, it is all explained to those that seek. If you have gate, gate, gate, you can take as the subject the prajnaparamita or yourself. You see, either gate, gate, see who has gone, gate, or I, who is going. Or then you can now introduce the filthiness of the tantra, we two. You see, you can have a duel, you see. But leaving out the filthiness of the tantra, you have either the prajnaparamita there doing it, then you have a visualization of the prajnaparamita, or you have I, gate, I go, go, go, and so on. And then you say, so a good God, there are five stages, where am I at the moment? You see. Yeah, what I meant was, is there any change in the visualization in terms of the five stages, or is the, does the visualization stay the same? I'm not making this up.

[49:01]

No, the answer is that I won't tell you. I won't tell you. Question. Prabhupada. Yeah. Dr. Karnsingh, where did these practices originate, and is there any record of what Buddha's practice was? Or is there any attempt on the part of later Buddhists to do Buddha's practice? Do you see what I mean? Well, I mean, there is an unbroken tradition. From Buddha. Oh, from Buddha, you never know. This is a contentious question, but I mean, there is an unbroken tradition which goes back for about 1,900 years or so, you see, a long time. I mean, that's all you can say. There's no point in it being too precise. I mean, where it started, you don't know. Except, I mean, this mantric stuff must have been very early because the earliest text, you see, which must be the earliest text because we no longer

[50:03]

really understand it in such an ancient language. It describes paññā, prajñā, wisdom as a mantra. You see, these practices, I mean, if I may put it differently, then they are universal in mankind. They come from Egypt. They all come from Egypt, and they are the correspondent to what I call the perennial philosophy. You see, a perennial philosophy is a certain wisdom teaching of which, again, since we quote Latin, you see, quod es zempa, quod ubiquer. You see, there is no language. I mean, this is an imperial language, you see, quod es zempa, quod ubiquer. What is everywhere and what is always is the other way around. That is the perennial philosophy, you see, and this perennial philosophy, in my view, since I am the one who does the talking here, is the original wisdom of mankind which was created in the caves. And therefore,

[51:03]

it is always connected with a feminine deity because the original deity of mankind is the great goddess. And it is created in the caves because it is not based on sensory observation, but you must remove, you see, the senses lead you astray. It's created in a cave or cage? Caves. Caves. Cave mankind. Caves. Caves. Caves. You said these practices originated in Egypt? Yes, the formulation of they originated, in my view, in the caves. Caves. Höhlen. Caves. Now, you see, again, you see, among my numerous works which are being reprinted now, you will have a review in which I give a list of all the caves in which Buddhism developed. You see, Buddhism was not, you see, that was the generation to live in lovely monasteries

[52:04]

and tea, but the real decent periods, they lived in caves. I mean, for instance, in China, in Turkestan, you have thousands and thousands of caves up in the hills, you see, and they never had tea or anything like that, but they sat up there and then they put a basket on for food, you see, and nobody took shepherds at all. And I have got a list there that, I mean, caves, I mean, caves upon caves. Now, you see, you need a cave because you have been inflated too, incidentally, because the senses are your worst enemy in this, because if you believe them, you can see nothing. Now, in a cave, you know, compared to a cave, at least it's dark, isn't it? There is nothing to see at all. And therefore, I am very grateful to our atomic scientists who very soon will reduce us back into the caves where we came from. Now, you see, the theory is that mankind,

[53:05]

you see, the wisdom was at the beginning. You see, mankind is deteriorating. It's going, each generation is more stupid than the one before. And, yes, I wonder whether this is an old man's illusion, but I think so. I think people are awfully stupid. But I remember my father thought I was awfully stupid, so it may be done. An old man, an old man's delusion. But I yesterday was at a meeting of the university lecturers, with the young lecturers, and I really thought they were stupid, I mean, honestly speaking. But I'm, well, maybe they were not. I'm just an old, old fool. But the theory is you have the original substance which was a direct intuition of the one as light, a spark of light in the cave, which was connected with a cult of the Great Mother, you see. And therefore, in all future things, you have the Great Mother. I mean, it's the holy priest, Brahmita, who is obviously a mother, if anything,

[54:06]

the mother of the Buddha. You have the Virgin Mary, who is known as the Sede Sapientia, the Seat of Wisdom, you see, the Sede Sapientia. And you, and so on, you see. And where you do not have this wisdom, you have the barbarity of crusades and things like that. And intolerance, in any case. Dr. Konzi, I'll just be quick to say, but do you think that since there's no writing at the first of Buddhism that it's impossible to include a human being named Shakyamuni Buddha as the teaching originating from him? I mean, you don't talk about Buddha or his original practice? Have we got, Konzi, you see, Konzi has said it all before. Buddhist scriptures, have we got the Buddhist scriptures and we have not got the Buddhist scripture? That's the penguin.

[55:07]

I refer you to the penguin. Now, you see, that Buddhism does not teach that the Buddha taught Buddhism, but it teaches that the Buddha rediscovered the perennial philosophy, which is in Pali, I mean, it's written in Pali, is Dhammo Sanantanu, the Dhamma, the truth, Sanantanu, which has no end, you see. The end of truth, you see. So, therefore, the theory is that the truth has existed from the very beginning and occasionally, now, somebody comes along and rediscovers it and tries to, I mean, teach it to these fools. He's wrong there. But he is completely unimportant for it. You see, Shakyamuni has nothing to do with it. The truth, you see, look at this. The Christians would be awfully hard put to it if we would prove that Jesus never existed. Because, you see,

[56:08]

if he not existed, then his blood couldn't have saved us. No, if anybody proved that Shakyamuni never exists, we would just laugh and say, it doesn't matter. All we have is the Dhamma. No, if he didn't teach it, I mean, we couldn't care less. I mean, the Shakyamuni has nothing to do with it. I mean, he's an absolutely no consequence to us. I can see that, that the Dharma does not include some sort of life of Shakyamuni Buddha, or does not include any practice of his, is what I mean. I didn't mean, did he exist or not? I mean, does the Dharma include some sort of example of his life for others? Or is the Dharma just the heart sutra, as far as you're concerned, and these other sutras that don't necessarily mention Shakyamuni Buddha? Well, you see, if he were an example to others, then all wives would tremble because he left

[57:09]

his lady the moment she had a child, you know, and said, a fetter has been born to me, you see, and he left. So that would be a very bad example. No, the answer to this is, you see, I'm always trying to understand what you want to say, is that the heart sutra is the essence of the Dharma, of the eternal Dharma, which is taught wherever human beings have been interested in wisdom, you see, in any climate or any period of time. It is the naked truth, it is just it, the diamond itself. Now, these stories of Shakyamuni are a lot of tales for people in India to make them happy, stories. And there is no truth to it at all. I mean, nobody would ever expect there to be any truth to it at all. I mean, something like this might have happened, but it's most unlikely. I mean,

[58:10]

he's not an exemplar. I mean, we are not, I mean, why we laugh at the sanctity of the family, we still do not say to each husband, once you have made a baby and your wife there, and the first baby is there, you give her a kick and tell her to look after herself. Okay, just one last thing. Specifically then, the story of Shakyamuni's practicing cross-legged sitting, do you think is unnecessary? No, I never said anything of the kind. The point is that he practiced meditation is essential. I mean, this kind of wisdom I talk, I talk about always has had meditation. I mean, the Egyptians had meditation, you have it in Mohenjo-Daro, I mean, the earliest, where they dug up in the Indus Valley, these Dravidian fellows, you have got pictures of Shiva, you see, he has got this. But that, you see, what it says

[59:10]

is meditation you should do, but the fact that this person did meditation is only to encourage you a little bit. I mean, in other words, I don't quite know if you see, I don't see what you mean. The biography of the Buddha is a complete fiction. You see, there is no truth in it at all. But the biography of the Buddha was the result of the need of the monasteries for money. You see, that if you have a monastery, you must have money. That's a great difficulty, you see. Even hostage is too hard. You need the money. Now, how do you get the money? Now, the best thing is to have pilgrims who give you the money because there are miracles there in India, you see. I mean, I don't know, Americans don't go into miracles yet. But there are miracles. Miracles. Now, then, you see, why should you pardon some money for us to keep us happy? Because here was the place

[60:12]

where the Lord Buddha produced a miracle that water came out of his top and fire out of his middle or something, or the other way around, you see. So, you be reverent and good children end it all. And so, you see, now, each of these monasteries had little handbooks. You still have them in the Catholic Church, you see. I mean, miracles. I mean, if you go to Loreto, you see, to Loreto, you hand out the cash because Loreto, that was once in Asia Minor. And one day, the Virgin Mary decided, whoop, and lifted up this building and carted it to where is Loreto now. You be reverent and hand it out. Yeah, I mean, the Catholic Church, you see, I remember the worst spot for pickpockets in Rome is that you are taken to a place, this is the staircase, a marvelous staircase on which Jesus Christ

[61:12]

went up when he met Pontius Pilate. Now, you must be very careful what we are. Because then, you see, now, then they go because it's a miracle place. They go, you see, you sit down there and say, oh, well, this is a very interesting staircase and hold your hand like that in your pocket. But the faithful, they walk up on their knees all these stairs, you see. And then there is somebody who, zoom, you see, takes the money. Now, that is, I mean, popular religion. That is the great problem. Where does the money come from, I think, this organization also. But in any case, whatever it may be. Now, so you have the handbooks of the monasteries about all these miracles. And then, about 600 years later, a poet called Ashwagosha wrote, I mean, wrote them up, you see, into what is known as the life of the Buddha nowadays. Yes, look, that is a fact, you see. There is nothing

[62:14]

of this at all. There is nothing at all. You see, then you are here, the Lumbini Grove, there, to produce your cash because there the mother of the Buddha, you see, she gave birth to him. But not where usually people give birth because the place is far too filthy for the Buddha to come out there, you see. But here, out of the side, he hops out here, you see. And there you see the picture that she holds onto a branch. So, hand out the cash. Now, you see, now all this was later on. And in fact, you see, later the research has shown that there was the center of the Buddha in Bihar, Buddhism in Bihar in Nepal, that all worked all right. But then, the other center of Buddhism was in the west, in Gandhara and so on. And so, all these stories were now transported there, too, where it never was. Oh, you have, I mean, in Ceylon, you see, come here, you reverend people. There is the

[63:14]

footprint of the Lord Buddha. There it is. Hand out the cash. So, let me follow that. So, these are the beginnings and that is one of the greatest problems of any religion, how to get the cash without being contaminated. And, now, one way of doing it, which I regard as comparatively harmless, you see, is to get it out of the miraculous belief of peasants. Peasants, I mean, it costs nobody really anything to verify. So, this is my institute, you see. So, nothing is wrong at all. The first source is, and that is why I refer you to my great work on Buddhist scriptures, where I translate the first thing, which is Ashvagosha 50 AD or 100 AD. And then a man called Fuxi, a very great scholar and old friend of mine, Fuxi, wrote then a book La Légende of the Buddha, you see, Legend of the Buddha. And he found lots in the Chinese,

[64:15]

lots of these book books for the monasteries, you see. There was a miracle. And you have the same. I mean, the whole of Catholicism is based on it, you see. And the miracles, I mean, it's just fantastic. I mean, when people believe them, you see, there's no reason not to believe them. I mean, one of the most, I mean, the church in Trier, that was one, no, in Cologne, in Cologne, was brought up, the richest church. They had the holy, everything is holy there, the holy coat which Christ wore when he was crucified. And that's an absolute wonder thing because it has no way where it is sewn together, you see. Miraculous. And that has, I mean, for 600, 800 years, you see, has brought in the cash. You look shocked, but I mean, I ask you, how can you have an honorable way of getting money without getting painted? You see, that's the Buddhists, therefore, had the rule that no monk

[65:15]

must ever handle money because it's dirt, you see, the devil is sitting in it. And according to my experience, it is, you see. I mean, again, I don't want to give advice to people without being asked, but it's one of the greatest dangers, you see, the contamination. And therefore, I mean, one of the greatest, I mean, all these, I mean, the belief of the populace in miracles is one of the easiest and cleanest ways. I mean, the whole of Mexico, I'm sure, I mean, the Virgin Mary is making some miracles. And then, you see, you have magic like this, I mean, it permeates the whole thing. It's a complete racket, then. Then I went to hear His Holiness Pope Pius XII and I loved him. A fellow Pisces like me is dishonest as they make him, you see. I mean, you can absolutely twist it, you see, to suit his purpose. And there we were and there he stood on St. Peter's and behind him were these pigeons, you know,

[66:15]

sort of pigeons, you see. And then he went like this, you see, and then the Holy Ghost, you see, then he collected some Holy Ghosts and then distributed some to all the people. And then he changed all the people. He was a fellow Pisces, you see, and we were great comedians, so we learned languages very easily. And he knew 15 languages. And so we first got it in German, which he knew best because he had been the nuncio in Germany and a very close friend of certain people who are not his friend. And then the message. I mean, I absolutely didn't bleed my ears after all. I mean, it's most impressive. I mean, this is Egypt still, you see. You have the ancient Rome. I mean, you have here on a chair made of ivory like Julius Caesar, you see, the Pontifex Maximus is carried along, you see. And then he has a sort of biretto. And then,

[67:15]

he has several, apparently, you see, because he doesn't want to get skin disease. He has several. And then the top one he then puts onto somebody, you see, and an enormous amount of sanctity then goes, his manas, his magic goes into him. But then the message of these little languages was this. Many a people who, and what I bless here with are all those rosaries and crucifixes and so on which you have bought in the shops which are so dear to the Holy Mother the Church which are here around and sent these great ones. So it was a record. I mean, he just made money for the people who sold these things at exorbitant prices there, you see, because what you bought with it was his holiness, you see, put the Holy Ghost into it. Now this is the record aspect of religion without which no religion can exist. It is impossible,

[68:17]

you see, I mean, to teach religion without the record aspect is castrating it completely. And in fact you fall into great sin because you ignore fundamental realities, you see, extremely fundamental indeed. And, you see, I mean, I have been the vice-president of this blasted Buddhist Society in England, I don't know about that, you know, and we are very rich, I mean, extremely rich, good God, but I know the price too, I'm afraid. Yeah. So do you follow? I mean, this is my lucid explanation of the so-called biography of the Buddha, that it is a poet writing up a lot of monastic chronicles claiming miracles of the quality of the staircase of Pontius Pilate. And then you see the racket goes still further and you are frightened, you see. Now you remember how you cheated and how many

[69:18]

sins you have upon yourself. But now if you come into this holy place you will get now the Catholic Church, you see, is the successor of the Roman Empire, you see, and you get off a fortnight in purgatory. But if you have seven other Marias in front of the statue of St. Peter there, you see, you have three weeks off in purgatory. That's all written there. Then if you do, which of course a man like you could never do, if you could kiss the foot of this St. Peter there, you see, which is worn away, you see, by five hundred years of people putting their dirt on it, you see, then you get four weeks off in purgatory. So you see, that is how popular religion gets the money in. And the Buddhists did that too, you see. I mean like the, [...] the tooth, you see, there's an enormous record in, in Colombo, you see. Ah, you will go to

[70:19]

hell, but you come to the tooth and you, and you get off where we put you out of a hotel into a cold hell, things like that. Now this is absolutely essential in this, you see, if we were angels, we would have the religion of angels, but because we are a lot of dirty dogs, we have a religion of dirty dogs, you see. And therefore the most sublime, you see, that's the essence of the Prajnaparamita, must go with the lowest of all. I use this, I mean, the record, I'm quite sure that it is holy, would know that too. I mean, it would just say, well, how are you going to get the cash from? Because, you see, if you don't get it from the common people, you get it from the mighty of the earth, and they are far more likely to make you pay for it than these illiterate peasants. You see, that's what killed it, I mean, if you think of it more closely, because it was then entirely dependent on the patronage in the Pala dynasty of the kings who just said, oh, here, Odantapuri, there are 12,000 monks

[71:20]

who do absolutely nothing except boo-boo-boo. So, here you have 25 villages with slaves for you. No, I mean, it has its advantages, but it killed it. Because, you see, once you have them as slaves, you don't do anything for them anymore, you see, you bastard, you brag. Whereas, if you say, well, look at this wonderful miracle, you see, you try to keep up with it. There's a tension which you have in all religions, which is as essential for it as the Arhat Sutra. It would be lovely to have the Arhat Sutra in a bako, you see, right? The patronage of which you just mentioned, is that referring to India in this case, or more of China? I'm referring to nothing. I mean, I had only, in this case, in the Pala dynasty, that was in India, and there, this Pala dynasty, that was the patronage of the rich, who expected you to explain, will you keep quiet

[72:20]

and not be rebellious, because Kala put you into this place, and please be good. This is how Christianity was explained to me, Protestants. That was the patronage of the rich, and that is the kiss of death, you see. Whereas Diogo is just a minor blemish, I would have thought. I mean, occasionally my Protestants sow rebels when I go to Rome, especially Napoli, still the Diana, and so on, and springs, and things like that. But I think it's a clean method, compared with the other, because the other always means that you teach subservience, at least in known history, in the past. That is the price. And there's no other. You see, originally, the Buddha, you see, Lord Buddha, I mean, I was just telling that person, but I'm allowed to contradict

[73:20]

myself. Now, the Lord Buddha foresaw this, and so he said, there's one way out, that is begging. And there you see the whole history of Buddhism trying to get away from it, because it was so damn uncomfortable. I mean, the original idea, as far as I understand it, was to confront this whole difficulty. We don't play on the superstitions of the multitude, nor do we go cap in hand and see where we keep these working people in order, if you give us the cash. But, all you do is to beg, and no clothes, not all this kind of thing, you see, beautiful robes and so on, but you must go to a rubbish heap and collect things there and then stitch them together. And not nice, pious women who do it for you, you see, but kindly sit there on your haunches and do this yourself. And don't be a burden on anybody, because in this

[74:20]

way, your clothes cost you nothing, because they are thrown away, and the food also, you must go from house to house and eat any filth which they fling at you, and there is always something over, usually, of course, but you would give to the cat, you see, in English. Now that is how the Lord Buddha himself tried to get around it. And then you will find that the whole Vinaya, which is five volumes of monastic rules, are five volumes of explanations of how the very first was, you see, you must not have any home at all, because the moment you have a home, well you know what happens, you get imprisoned in it. So therefore it is terrible to stay in any place for more than ten days or something like this. Kindly shoo off. And you are also not allowed to live anywhere except at the foot of trees, you see, they have, of course, different climate, you see. And then you

[75:21]

have long explanations in the Suttanipata of Shariputra, the greatest wisdom, whining for pages about all the mosquitoes and things like this. And then you see, the first thing was then to, as far as we can follow the stories, you see, is that they were allowed during the rainy season to stay in one place. And, I mean, then 500 years later, nobody went begging at all, I mean, even this Zen begging, I mean, we know what this is, you know, I mean, it's just a sort of joke. Likewise, in drama, nobody begs anymore. So, you see, that is the one way out, absolute poverty. And that also in the Catholic Church, you see, that was St. Francis. He said, there's only one way out, absolute poverty. And that lasted just 30 years. And now you go to Assisi, and you know what absolute poverty means. So,

[76:24]

do you see that? I mean, it has been thought out, but unless you have this absolute, almost inhuman capacity for self-sacrifice, you are either playing on the superstition of the populace, or get money from the mighty. Which do we do? I do not know anything about the organization. I am only invited once a week, if I am not flu or bad ears or so, to come and tell you. I tell you nothing. I know nothing. You mentioned poverty, selfishness, and ineffectiveness. Yeah. So, are all of those three the way Buddha or close disciples or whatever, is that the way you

[77:25]

get around all attachments, or are they all on the same level? It seems as though poverty and celibacy is the way to get around all attachments, but ineffectiveness is a more positive or active thing to do. I mean, it's not a thing to do at all, but it doesn't seem like you're trying to get around something with ineffectiveness. It seems as though you're trying to do something. Do you see what I mean? I'm trying to. Do you see what I mean? cover the whole situation of attachment, poverty, celibacy, and ineffectiveness, or do they have some other relationship with each other? Not a CB. Not a CB? Yeah. Well, I think he's saying that are they all negative

[78:26]

virtues, I think is what he's after. It is perhaps not the thing of trying to be inoffensive. Isn't that a more positive thing? That's a specific question, and another one more generally is are those three things that sort of cover that whole aspect of our lives? Perhaps poverty covers certain aspect of attachment and celibacy and other and inoffensiveness and other, or is that just a partial explanation of some situation? Well, I mean, I really don't get it. Now, you see, you see, if you have no you see, if you have no poverty, the world which is the enemy of the spirit will get the better of you, won't it? I mean, I would I mean, in general, in general. You see,

[79:27]

my great predecessor, the one philosopher I love in Europe is Spinoza, Benedictus Spinoza. Now, he spat into everybody's face. And when I go to Leiden, where I have many friends, my wife and I always go on pilgrimage to the house of Spinoza, and there Spinoza died very early because he ground lenses and you can get, and he got TB or whatever from it. Ceratosis. Ceratosis, from it. And so he spat his lungs out and bled like an eagle and died very early. And this is the most reverent aspect to see, that he gained his freedom with this, you can still see, where he ground lenses, you see. Because, you see, he understood, you see, I am a very old hand at this. The moment you take money from the university, what a trouble you are in. And therefore the only way, so he refused, he was asked by Heidelberg, but wrote a letter also. He said,

[80:28]

I'm glad. It is still left behind, you see. So the only way in which you can keep out of the hands of the devil is to live on almost nothing. Because otherwise he will get you. You see, you get nothing for nothing. One of the things I have succeeded on the whole, but not quite. So therefore, you see, that poverty is based on the entanglement between the world and the spirit. The world is a sort of active, which hates spiritual things and will try anything to get you down. And therefore the moment you, well, I mean, to just give you the example, I'm sure I gave before because it cost me my job in the end, was I get a lovely job and I'm offered $100,000 free of charge for Buddhist studies at the University of Washington. Then, this is all scribbled, you see, scribbled up, you see. It is signed. Two days

[81:28]

later, Professor Conzer, will you go to Chiang Mai in Thailand? And I say, what should Professor Conzer go to Chiang Mai in Thailand for? Well, there are a number of Buddhists and perhaps you would explain to them the attitude of America in the Vietnam War. Well, that is what I mean. And I said, my dear man, you see, wherever you take something, you undergo an obligation. Isn't that? You do. I mean, there are many examples, many examples, many examples. Now, likewise with the celibacy, you see, there is no great virtue in celibacy, but once you start muddling about with the women, I mean, I take it from a man's point of view,

[82:28]

you usually cause babies in them or they fall in love with you or God knows what trouble you get. Isn't that? Therefore, put off this thing, you see. Look at them to be, I mean, it's much safer, you know, I mean. But of course, in itself, there is not a solution, you see, that's why I don't quite understand your question, you see. I mean, I have always had very little and I have never wanted it because I have come from an extremely rich family and I despise money. I just regard it as shit. It doesn't interest me. But if I had been born as a poor man, I would think it was very good to have money, you see. But I don't. I don't want that. And I've always got it anyway. Now, if you are not celibate, this may cause far more attachment in you than if you just go to bed with these bitches. Isn't that? If you follow it. Because, you see, what sort of imaginations you might have if you do not go to bed with the bitches, you can find from when I,

[83:29]

you see, my karma, I have seen it all, that I was, although I am Protestant, lived for three years in, no, three months, in the Jesuit monastery in Falkenburg, which is the elite of the elite. There's nothing like it. In Falkenburg, only the scholars and so on. And there, I studied scholastic Latin, and there are all these books of the 17th century, and they have prints in Antwerp and so on. They have always naked women with lovely bosoms on them. And they had all been scraped off. And so, I thought it was a kind of a joke. And, now, I was very, very well aware of it, because I am not a celibate. And so, then, I got very friendly with these people. I loved them. I mean, this is the sword of the earth. What about this? I mean, what is this in Adolf? I mean, it's not only

[84:29]

in every, in one book, but it's in all of them, you see. And then, you see, I was told about the sexual imaginations which celibacy produces, these hot-blooded people. There are a lot of, I mean, not only northern people, you see, but we had Spaniards and Portuguese, and they imagined, I mean, it's always imagined. I mean, they told me what they imagined, you see. And they think, it is very different from what I mean in my limited experience. They show me their experience, you see. So they heat themselves up into a state of Liberian excitement, which is very much more harmful to their detachment, you see. I mean, it is one of their greatest problems, what to do with it. And for instance, that goes so far that, this is the elite, I mean, this is not just ordinary people, I mean, these are all professors and things like this, that no cell must ever be closed because the superior must always be able to find out whether they are doing masturbation or homosexuality. That's the official

[85:29]

reason. Now, you imagine what a hard bed you have got there, isn't it? Because I said about this while I had a cell there, I mean, I was treated just because I had to study it, and they said, all right, look, you can have a key, but nobody else. So I got this experience. So therefore, you see, what I am trying to disabuse you of is that in celibacy it is not by no means a remedy against attachment, it is a remedy against entanglements, if you see the difference. Entanglements. You see, I mean, once you have the woman, I mean, they fall in love, I mean, in a silly lot, isn't it? And they think they can no longer live without you and things like that, and God knows what a false imposter they can be. Then they go, they get babies, I mean, horrible. Creatures are starved, you see, so they become jealous, you see. Jealous, I mean, a man like me, I am extremely affable as the girls, you see, and good lord, nothing at all, and so on. So therefore,

[86:30]

entanglements, but the attachment, I would say that, I mean, I said this to a class, and I see everything becomes gossip, that what I owe my complete indifference to sex, I mean, not indifference, I say, God, it was a joke, you see, it has never done that, is to my dear father, who, when I was 15, he and his mother, I guess my mother, they went away at Easter and left me in the house with Anna, absolutely delightful daughter of the people in Germany, and here and there I found what all this was about, and I've never forgotten it. Now, you see, I mean, there's a way of taking the edge off it, I mean, I regard it as a total joke, you see, I mean, we started at 14 with this extremely capable Anna, you know, and go on. Then you have no attachment, you see, and do you follow my reasoning, you see, I mean, I assume that because I started at 15, and regard this as just like blowing my nose up, you know, I have no attachment

[87:31]

to sex. I mean, I don't think I have. I mean, no, no, I certainly haven't. Whereas if I now had just not got this lovely Anna at 15, and had been in some hothouse there, you see, only with men, and then occasionally, you see, what do they do nowadays with these playboy about things? I mean, you mustn't look. Then my attachment to sex of women would be much greater. I mean, don't you follow my reasoning? So therefore, you see, celibacy is not regulation again. You see, that is one of the reasons why in modern times, you see, I mean, I think this is quite true, that they give, I mean, there is such a thing as married priests. Now, one of the reasons is at least they don't sleep with all the parishioners because they have got one woman to sleep with, you see, which is a very reasonable argument. Or in the

[88:31]

Catholic church in the Rhinelands where I come, they all had mistresses that was known as housekeeper, you know, and everybody knew that they were on the whole not the ugliest house about, you know, housekeeper. And this was regarded, you see, as, well, of course, I don't know how they avoided babies. I mean, they must have done something to avoid babies. But it was taken for granted. Yeah. I mean, it overheated the imagination. I mean, I don't... Are you married? No. then perhaps it overheated the imagination. But I mean, now, the third point is... Yes? Now, this inoffensiveness... You see, the inoffensiveness...

[89:32]

What do you mean by it? You see, I don't follow. I'm lost. What do you mean by inoffensiveness? What do I mean by it? Yes. I was talking about the first two to make the rest of my ability, but inoffensiveness certainly I would not... I was quoting you. Yes, I know. I mean... I'm wondering what those... why those three terms come together and what... what relation they have with each other and what relation they have with experience. So, how does inoffensiveness... How is that another term that comes with poverty and celibacy? What relation does it have to that? Well, did I produce these three at some unguarded moment? That's right. No, I see at last this... As we say in Latin, mea culpa maia maxima culpa, you see, I assume my great sin. Yes, I mentioned in passing, you see, but I mean not... I mean now this becomes a dogma, you see, no? No, no.

[90:32]

I'm very happy I habitually contradict myself so frequently that nobody could make a dogma out of what I say. If I remember correctly, the three... I can't... I don't remember correctly the exact words, but maybe the three primary monastic rules, poverty, celibacy, inoffensiveness, not harming, is that completely incorrect memory of it? It might be. In Buddhism... Well, I mean in Buddhism in any case inoffensiveness is absolutely vital, you see, and it is vital for two reasons. Because liberation from the world comes by a combination of compassion and wisdom. Now, you cannot be compassionate if you harm other people. You see, I mean I sometimes... You see, now you harm other beings, you see, I mean we have not

[91:33]

people, this is the barbarism of them, it's other beings. Now, the amount of massacre you cause all the time is just terrific. You see, that is a form of meditation, you see, for instance. I mean, I'm also very fond of to see what harm you are doing all the time. Because, you see, I mean, everybody, I mean even stupid people have heard of this, that man is the greatest pollutant of all, isn't it? I mean, what life cannot be in this bay area, for instance, because of all this pest which has started to live here, of which we are part. I mean, in fact, all life on their own has been suppressed, except a few rats are still around, and pigeons, I suppose. But otherwise, all the more noble creatures have been destroyed, so that man should live. There's nothing left. And because this is an exception in a barbaric country, you even now go up in aeroplanes

[92:33]

and shoot down the eagles which are still left and so on, and shoot all the white bears and things like that. So therefore, you see, you must have a feeling that you are a blot on the earth. This is very important to see, that you have, that you do so much harm all the time, that you have to justify your existence by being particularly helpful to others, to undo the harm which you have done. I mean, for instance, I mean, you are probably vegetarians, but I just can't afford it, you know, I'm a sort of missionary who is dashing about through the whole world, and if I would eat what they call vegetarian food, I would just waste away. I mean, I eat it at home, you see, but the muck, I mean, is very not in England. So I eat meat, you see, especially when I am out, it's home, by the way, I'm out, you see, you have to live on something. So therefore,

[93:34]

if I think of the massacre, I have got, especially like fish, you see, if I think about that thing, you see, and then I think, here am I, and there is an enormous mountain, you see, of dead fish, of dead rabbits, and rabbits we don't eat anymore because they have got mixed homotosis.

[93:50]

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