I am so grateful that actually you don't need to be told anything this morning that the really the only offering here you've already been offered and you've taken it up and are proceeding in that way and and I'm happy to be doing that with you and and feel off the hook about what I might say. Partly you know it's the seventh day of Sashin I couldn't imagine sort of getting out books and studying at this point and partly a few days ago I thought of something that I wanted to say and then Greg gave his talk and it I wanted to incorporate something that Deng Xian had said and then yesterday Mel and Suzuki Roshi said it all so that's fine I'm going to say it over again today the the point that I

[01:03]

wanted to make and it may not take so long and if that's true after that if you have questions that's good and if you don't I've also thought of telling some stories so I'll tell you more about that later if we get there so the thing that Deng Shan said that fit right into what I wanted to remind us of was the first part of his poem earnestly avoid seeking outside lest it recede far from you and I think this is such a basis you know of our practice and so a little bit complicated what does it mean you know what is seeking outside there's when

[02:04]

I was president of Zen Center I was living in San Francisco and I would come to Tassajara regularly and it seemed to me that the people at Tassajara were quite naturally in a slightly different place than even the people at San Francisco and Green Gulch in terms of this seeking outside or not and the way that it showed up was in the problems that people were having that we have we have a tendency to you know look for where's the cause of this and I think a natural human tendency is to look outside and find something to blame but at Tassajara almost without exception the people were blaming themselves now I know that doesn't always happen you know we can blame each other and the

[03:05]

schedule and the food and you know we can blame find lots of things outside to blame but almost always along with that goes some self-reflection so I think you know on the continuum of seeking outside versus seeking inside that's somewhere over you know it's it's turning toward me and what's going on with me in this situation which is helpful because at least it's in the area of effective study you know if we're studying and let me if we're studying out there that's fine we might get to know something about it but it doesn't actually impact in the way that studying in here impacts of course the boundaries are not that simple right because what happens in here is totally affected by what

[04:07]

happens out there so as we're studying this karmic body and mind of course we're we're constantly being impacted by each other and by events and you know by everything right all of our it's so interesting to me that one of the main poems or teachings of Soto Zen you know the merging of difference and unity such a big part of it is made up of these kind of like nothing phrases you know like eyes and sights ears and sound you know so what is it talking about but actually I think it's that's crucial in our practice is actually that's what our experience is made up of this supposedly outside coming in and also inside also meeting those senses and then our response to them so in the studying as we've learned to turn our attention quote inwardly I think a

[05:14]

further confusion happens we look inside and we see a mess right various times sometimes we see things we like but a lot of the time we see things we don't like and we think there must be some mistake they couldn't have meant this is what I'm supposed to like walk around with and work with so there must be some other me that would be better for studying and you know without even thinking that we it comes up kind of naturally and in my personal experience it's usually I don't know if to call it vague but or maybe it's so innate that I don't even notice I'm just discounting this one and somehow leaning toward that

[06:18]

one this one that would be more presentable or more helpful or you know better to practice with and again we're actually looking I don't know if it could be called outside because it's this thing we've made up in our mind but we're not looking at what's actually presented to us what's arising moment by moment in this karmic body and mind so identifying that movement of our attention which is sometimes called judgment you know it goes hand in hand with judgment maybe is very helpful to our practice to be able to see when you know when we feel the urge to practice or you know want to use our effort and then we look and said and then the feeling that comes up is you know or as

[07:24]

Deng Shan said I still have some habits that haven't been eradicated great does that sound familiar I still have some habits that haven't been eradicated of course he went on to say you know he had this conversation with his teacher and at the end he says basically you know it's it would be a lie to say I'm not joyful it's like I'm grasping a pearl in shit which is a good clue to us about when we notice that we have habits that aren't eradicated yet what to do with them you know like get in there and it's not exactly get in there and mess around in the shit it's more like it's more like open your heart or like open your heart to the shit what is the Buddha nature of this it's okay I'll tell stories about him in a minute he'll wake up

[08:25]

sorry let's see is there anything else I want to say about that I think this is really hard for us excuse me to believe and somebody mentioned asked something about faith the other day and I do not think that faith in Buddhism is trying to talk ourselves into believing something so the fact that it's hard for us to believe that my particular problem or problems are really what I'm supposed to be studying you know I think or if we do believe that we think well if I study them hard enough or in the right way they will go away so to actually just be

[09:36]

open-hearted to these problems and what is the Buddha nature what does it mean that they are Buddha nature is very hard for us to believe that that's what we're supposed to do and I would suggest that instead of trying to convince yourself of that that you try it once in a while on something simple and see what happens and if in fact it turns out that that problem was you know what happens to it does it actually turn out to fit in the situation is it beneficial does it transform if that happens then I think your faith or confidence or courage will grow and I think you know that's one way of talking about what's happening here

[10:39]

during a practice period or during a period of Zazen even in some ways I think of Zazen as one of the biggest acts of faith that we do you know to go sit in a room facing a wall for 40 minutes and let our life run amok without our controlling it is like you know according to some states of mind that we can be in it's totally crazy like shouldn't you be calling people and making sure that you know they know where you're going to be and what they should think about you and what they should do and you know keep them in line and you're gonna go sit in this room and let it all happen so you know we sort of distract ourselves from that by thinking well I'll go sit in that room and make myself into a better person and then I'll be better suited to call them so but really you come in here and you don't know if you're making yourself a better person or not and you're just sitting here you know while the world

[11:42]

goes on and I think one of the things that happens is by that our faith confidence courage to live in the world without controlling it increases but you don't have to believe me try it out as you are and what happens to these problems in in my experience is is quite varied you know sometimes if we are open-hearted to them if we essentially do Zazen with them you know if we take a stable position physically you know standing sitting lying or walking down we try to be stable walking down yeah standing

[12:49]

sitting walking or lying down we try to be stable so that we can handle what comes and then we have an open-eyed attitude you know or we have an open-hearted open-minded attitude and if we do that then what happens to the things that we call our problems or our habits varies you know sometimes they just fade away you know that some of them some of them we see them and they're like so weird that we drop them you know they're such like wrong ideas some of them continue you know even when we see them you know we see what we're doing and we see that it really doesn't work and it's causing suffering for me

[13:49]

and others and it still goes on if we keep watching it we usually learn more of the same you know oh I really am causing suffering for myself and others but if we are then if that's true for causing suffering for ourself and others and we're trying then perhaps not to do that particular thing or let's just say if we're staying balanced so however if whether we're doing it or not there's not like total jumping in with both feet to it the energy going to it starts to ebb a little bit so even if it continues and it often continues as a thought or an emotion you know where we might stop doing the action but the emotion might still arise or the thoughts about this might still arise for quite a while but if we've if we're seeing it and we see what through what

[14:54]

the nature of it is how it comes about the energy to it wanes now whether it ever goes away or not you know I don't think that's up to us that's up to dependent colorizing I guess you know how deep is it how deep is the habit energy but it can happen actually as a almost as a benefit like I probably I should just make a general apology for having said everything I'm going to say before so if you've heard it before I'm sorry so I probably said this before too but one of my problems which I have really not liked is a sense of panic when you know now Keith actually you know for the last 30 years Keith you know

[16:01]

the various forms is angry at me looks the other way disagrees you know some way he stops validating me and my response to that which right these days you know having been together for 30 years is not so strong but in the beginning it was like terrible you know he's he wants to I don't know what you know go somewhere with a friend of his and I'm like just devastated maybe some of you've experienced and I hated that hated being that kind of a person you know it's like dependent it's a terrible word dependent and you know so that made it worse but it didn't make it go away the feeling was still there was terrible and it you know went on for years years and years and and it slowly ebbed for lots of reasons lots of practice and you know many permutations on my path

[17:04]

but still years later once in a while it still come up like this sometimes panic sometimes just like dread or a hole you know someplace where I don't know who I am or I'm not anybody maybe and at some point it could come up as almost like a welcome old friend believe it or not it's like oh here's a clue to a way that I that this karmic body and mind manifests self-clinging you know or manifests look looking for a self and it's not there all the time anymore so I better look at it while it's here it was very very interesting to have this you

[18:06]

know terrible demon turn into something that was actually you know I still it wasn't pleasant never got to be pleasant but it did get to be a real teacher a real teacher okay I think I want to stop there and ask if you have questions yes Trevor um like you said it takes a lot of faith to believe that these problems we have is through the nature but faith and buddhism isn't trying to get ourselves to believe something. So how do we keep from falling into the trap of coming to this endo and doing this other endo in order to convince ourselves that this mind and body is buddha? Do you hear him? I think tell me I think he said the last part was how do we keep

[19:09]

from falling into the trap of coming to the zendo and doing zazen with the goal of convincing ourselves that this mind and body is buddha and I would say just turn it just a little bit into a question just come to the zendo with the question is this mind and body buddha and with the question about these you know habits problems is this buddha so we don't have to go all the way to it is or it isn't just because if you're honest you don't know no I mean when we know we know but there's lots that we don't know and sometimes when we're in the middle of a problem we really don't know but we also don't know that it's terrible which is what we mostly keep telling ourselves there anything else yes Flynn how does it how does it arise or what is it what

[20:23]

would I say it is well I think it's freedom to love freedom to act freedom to live and how does it arise a freedom to be who we are how does it arise well you know in some ways I think it's always happening it's like here we are a comic a karmic comic a comic a comedy karmic sometimes body and mind sitting in the world with these senses right and this mind that interprets the senses and things come at us and responses happen it just happens like somebody here's a blue jay and it hurts and somebody else here's a blue jay and it's like pretty

[21:25]

you know I mean people have different karmic bodies and minds and so you know response [...] is happening and the only problem in that in terms of freedom I mean that's freedom as a human being to have responses or as a living being even have responses the the problem is I think we have let's see where should I start let's see first we have as humans we have an idea we have a sense that I'm a separate self we just were born with that but we're nervous about that because we can tell right away that there's something fishy here I can't exactly get a hold of what it is and what's more keeps changing and what's more I hear it's gonna die and all the you know all

[22:28]

the proof is going toward that and as we live longer it gets more and more kind of evident it's going to happen right so we're uneasy we have this sense of self but it seems a little vulnerable right so we immediately start like building edifices you know and we take this idea and this we do this and we don't like here's me and I'm okay I'm really here really here really here and if I can't be this okay I'll be this and we so we're very very very busy and threatened all the time all the time by reality and by these responses that are happening you know internally and externally so so we're busy and we're afraid and those are the that's the hindrance to freedom so as we for instance sit here and see that the world goes on when we walk out of the Zendo 40 minutes later or seven days later or three months later if when you get out

[23:31]

there you find out your life is still there then you'll I think then we have a little more ability actually capacity to act freely because fear has settled a little bit it's dwindled a little bit just by experience Devin yes oh well let me see it let me repeat it and see if I got it right she said I think that she finds that she's often motivated to stay open to problems with the hope that they will be solved oh that you'll be a better person she'll be a better person and now she's hearing me and other people say that that might

[24:35]

be a mistake well it might motivate you to stay open to them so that might not be a mistake because you know that they're out of your control they're you know they're happening these quote problems are happening these facets of your personality right are happening and staying open to them will make you a better person well you don't know you know you don't know you'll just have to like try it and see I don't know if that's such a bad motivation I mean it's it's I think that it's probably at base another ego trip you know like I know what a better person would be and if I watch this closely I might be able to

[25:39]

like direct it in that way but that's okay because you probably won't be able to so while you're there being open with this sly motivation you know still you might learn something you might stumble into freedom and lack of fear you know less fear of the problem more understanding of them and therefore more compassion you know are you all being quiet so I'll tell stories okay then I better hurry because I have a lot no so the reasons that I thought of telling stories were probably numerous one Mel got to tell stories for four nights and and Mike's

[26:47]

and he's still not finished and who knows you might do it again tonight and and my experience is different and my experience is a little different than his so that brought up oh boy what about my story and this practice period seems to me in some ways to be kind of like an ode to Mel in a good way or a celebration in a way of Mel and Mel's teaching in some ways I think that's what it is and and I am really happy to be here for it really happy and grateful to you for being here and hoping that you will return and so I thought well maybe I could just lay out some of my life with Mel and I might have to throw in a few other things to balance it but we don't have very long so maybe I won't have

[27:50]

time and and what's more he can sit there and if he can hear me which we aren't sure he can he can either shake his head yes or no if he disagrees because one of the things that I think has been really apparent in our relationship is I think it's very easy for us to disagree there's there isn't a problem with it in a way I mean we because of a base I think a base of agreement about a lot of things a lot of Dharma and a lot of experience and and besides that my experience of Mel is that he in some ways he can say almost anything but when it comes down to it he relates to the

[28:52]

person kind of open-heartedly that's my experience of Mel and therefore and I think I'm a little bit the same way and so I think we've never actually felt threatened by disagreeing I think that's true on my side that's true and he's shaking his head yes so when Keith and I first came to Zen Center in 1971 just before Suzuki Roshi was died he was sick already Keith went off to Los Angeles to visit a friend and I was left to decide how we were going to be in the Bay Area and we were we came from the Midwest where we'd been sitting to the Bay Area because we'd read about Tassajara but we couldn't come to Tassajara it wasn't allowed so we were going to Zen Center but we knew there was a Zen Zen do in Berkeley and you know there was San Francisco Zen Center and I was supposed to go check these things out and try to decide I can't even imagine this Keith

[29:53]

always decides but somehow I was supposed to so I took my little assignment and went to Berkeley the first place I went no no I think I went to City Center first because we were in the city so I went to City Center and you know I went in and it felt really overwhelming and you know kind of cool and I was met by the secretary at the time and she sat down with me in that you know that alcove right in the front next to the Buddha Hall on those benches there and she sat like this and I probably I don't know I was sitting like this I definitely noticed that she was like sitting like this it was a little overwhelming and I went to Zazen I believe and that was overwhelming but it but the good thing was nobody bothered me like nobody seemed to care whether I was there or not so I went to Berkeley well I don't know I think Mel was probably at Tassajara I met Liz who's arriving today I don't know where they were in their thing but she was at the Berkeley Zen Center with Peter Overton

[30:58]

who I know maybe none of you do and they invited I just went knocked on the door and they invited me in for tea in you know homemade pottery cups and tea and cookies and they were nice and they talked to me and they seemed to like want me to be there and me being who I was which was a you know closet Lutheran from Idaho or the Midwest both trying to come to California if you from Idaho you you know that Californians are really dangerous they come and they steal your land and your water it's terrible and you don't really want to mess with them and then besides that they were real hippies and I was like a fake hippie so and I was worried you know where was this leading was my husband gonna become a my husband my boyfriend gonna become a real hippie and then you know have lots

[31:58]

of lovers and you know drugs and I don't know anyway I was nervous about the whole thing so when we got to Berkeley when I got to Berkeley and they were nice and welcoming and I had the feeling I was gonna have to relate with them I scurried back to Zen Center and I was so relieved you could go to Zen Center and nobody noticed for months we went to Zazen and out the back door Zazen Zazen

[33:07]

Zazen [...] Much to say because I also want to just put in a little bit about teachers so I just want to mention that right at that time so Suzuki Roshi died before he died we were sitting at Zen Center Richard Baker came back from Japan and gave a lecture at Zen Center other people were lecturing too because Suzuki Roshi wasn't well enough but he gave a lecture and Keith and I went and he was wearing an okaesa and blue jeans and this was great we loved this this this really sealed that we had come to the right place and then you know he became the abbot Suzuki Roshi died and many many people left Zen Center at that point and

[34:09]

we didn't really know them but we could tell there were fewer people around and again we had no context for what had gone before so this was you know Baker Roshi's kind of he was becoming the abbot and was and this is where our experience really differs Mel's and mine because Mel was was Richard's peer and had a whole other experience of him for me I I just have to say you know I'm so grateful to him he was so open to me and to many people and I think really an incredibly intuitive compassionate person as long as you don't disagree with him think that he has a real belief in his own wisdom that doesn't leave much room for perspective for other people's but since I rarely did disagree with him

[35:11]

and when I did I was very very what do you call it tactful about it I basically experienced a tremendous amount of support from him and am grateful so probably the next time that I actually remember much interaction with Mel was in 1983 I happened to be on the board and you know before that I was on the board for a little while of Zen Center mostly the board was people who Suzuki Roshi had appointed to the board as lifetime members to be responsible for Zen Center Mel and Reb and other people of their seniority appointed you guys as lifetime members oh really Richard Baker appointed them as lifetime members to take care of Zen Center and then later he appointed some

[36:16]

of us me Linda I can't really remember who as board members in some ways I mean you know you could say stacking the board in his favor because we were his students and that might be true but besides that I think also a lot of them were no longer so involved with Zen Center perhaps because they couldn't be but also they weren't so those there were some of us there who were more involved with since then so for whatever complicated reasons I was on the board when the whole thing with Richard Baker happened which is a whole other long story and you can read books about it but at that point the board and Zen Center or such boy the trauma was just incredible because this vision of what's in so for those of us who were Richard

[37:20]

students this vision of Zen Center which we had been pouring our life into and had been going along was suddenly like not what was happening whole other event and I just want to say that I my feeling about why Zen Center survived is because of Tassajara because we even though as maybe Mel or somebody has said recently that a lot of our practice relationship was going toward Richard at that time still we practice with each other at Tassajara in the same way that you do now and the bonds whether you realize it or not are very very deep sitting here with each other in this valley going through the kinds of things we go together I was talking to somebody yesterday about this and they said you know I think the people I'm going to end up being the closest to are the ones I had the most trouble with and in some ways it's true you know you go through these things and anyway so when Zen Center kind of totally shifted there

[38:26]

was still this network of trust because of Tassajara and in the midst of that the board was really struggling oh god I can't do this I have to cut this down and Mel was right there with I mean we anyway long long long stories of decision after decision after decision that was incredibly painful and for me as someone who hadn't been here at the beginning of Zen Center you know some of the old board members came back to the board and it was like opening a door on a family house or opening a window you know a house that you think is your house you're like living in the house but you go outside and you open the window and there's a whole other family there and whole other you know they're your family you're related to them you know them but it's like a whole other story is happening it was so interesting to watch their relationships with each

[39:30]

other and sort of become part of that so we went through that together all of us and there's a lot that could be said but I won't and out of that also grew my relationship with Reb who I also didn't know very much before that you know and watching he and Lou Richmond who was both Reb and Lou were the tantos at Zen Center at that point City Center and Green Gulch and so they were sort of the most connected to the students at Zen Center and their attempt to be there in this chaos and trauma for the students of Zen Center was really just heart opening and their mistakes they made you know just mistake after mistake after mistake because they were working with people who are traumatized you know they

[40:30]

couldn't do anything right and yet to come back everybody just kept coming back and going through it so many of my much of my feeling about my teachers came from that time of their effort and how they stayed there with each other and and with really disagreeing with each other and also right at that time I sort of got yanked into a lot of responsibility as one of the assistant tantos in the City Center and also very soon about a year later as the president of Zen Center so once I was the president of Zen Center and then well soon after that Mel joined Reb as the abbot of Zen Center which was also a huge big thing you know Zen Center was struggling for what is the religious leadership of Zen Center and we had lots of different ideas you know six abbots no abbot three abbots anyway at this particular point in history that I'm

[41:35]

thinking of it slowly narrowed down to two choices one abbot Reb or two abbots Reb and Mel and anyway eventually Reb invited Mel to join him and together they were the abbots of Zen Center and I was the president and I felt their support so thoroughly during the years that I was president them just really being there and working together on this crazy thing called Zen Center at the end of that in 1990 I came to Tassajara my whole family came to Tassajara and was here for the summer and really had no I stopped being president had no idea we had no idea where we were going to be what we were going to do we all came to Tassajara for the summer didn't know were we leaving Zen Center or what the end of that summer Reb and Mel asked me whether I wanted to be shuso and so that fall

[42:41]

fall of 90 Mel led the practice period and I was the shuso with him it was a little bit strange our family since we didn't know where we were going had decided we were going to go to Yellowstone for two-week vacation in October so when they asked me what could I did I want to be shuso I said well you know we have these plans and they said okay so I was the shuso and left for two weeks to go to Yellowstone you missed that chance you didn't have a 10 and 12 year old child who would make a little so did that shuso period and again didn't know at the end of that what where we were going or what we were going to do and they asked me at the end of that to would I be the tanto here so then I was the tanto till the end of the summer when we moved when it was too much for the girls to be here they'd been out of school for a year and a half and really needed contact with their peers so we moved to Jamesburg and I thought I

[43:45]

was just going to live at Jamesburg but I came in for the tokubetsu seshin that was happening here and said you know could I come during the week and they said yeah you can keep being the tanto so for the next five years so over six years I was the tanto here and now I do have to get back on track that's why I have this note again oh and during that time that for the first four I guess most the time I was tanto basically Reb and Mel alternated practice periods so they were here so during that time we got much closer just a couple of things about I remember one shosan ceremony with Mel one of my biggest questions back then was one that some of you have asked me how do you if you have to make

[44:51]

a decision and you don't know what you want to do what do you do and he said if you're standing with one foot on the boat and one foot on the dock and the boat starts to move something will happen and it was very helpful very helpful and it was true it is true another interaction that we had was one of our disagreements I think is that I think that I think that Mel has often thought that I should be ordained I think this because he's often told me this and one once he started trying to convince me of it in a meeting I thought

[45:51]

that was a little over I said I think we should talk about this privately so he said okay so then the next time he came to Tassajara I went to doktan and I said so what you want he said well I think you should be ordained and I said well I if I don't want to be ordained do you think I should be ordained and he said well no I guess not and then that was it as I remember it that time anyway and we anyway so okay that's my life with Mel and in a way it's my life with my teachers too I said you know I've mentioned the main ones except for three very strong Jewish women by chance Jewish women I think by chance Jewish women who are you know my best friends and also and join the pantheon of my

[46:56]

teachers Linda Amala and Tia and I I'm always or I don't know if I'm always but I I want to be careful with these all these teachers that I'm not avoiding letting someone be a teacher for me and I've really tried to be careful about that but I also feel like in some ways my biggest teacher biggest definitely biggest but also deepest and truest is Tassajara and you know that means all of you and all your predecessors and the things we do together and the way it works and I know I feel so grateful to have been here all this time and feel really taught and as Mel was quoting Suzuki Roshi you know this search for a

[47:57]

teacher I think is a little tricky it can get graspy and very easily but the the attempt to be teachable to be able to be taught I think is is really good practice really good practice to try to be taught by everyone and everything and then teachers come along you know here he is and here they are so I want to remind us that this practice period isn't over yet that we have the rest of today to you know enjoy if possible but if not possible to explore what is going on here you know what's going on in this practice what's going on in this karmic body and mind what's going on in this universe and then we have a few more days to do that before all hell breaks loose in all the myriad ways

[49:03]

that's going to happen and yet you know the rest of Dungshan's poem sorry to go on so long is really also kind of relevant earnestly avoid seeking without lest it recede far from you today I am walking along yet everywhere I go it says I meet him and he's speaking of his teacher I would just like to insert it for Tassajara. Tassajara actually practice period because at the end of practice period when we go when the next day dawns and we do whatever we do which is either you know some are leaving some the world is coming here okay I want you to think of walking out across that stream and saying this poem earnestly avoid seeking without lest it recede far from you today I am walking

[50:05]

along yet everywhere I meet it I meet Tassajara practice period it is now no other than myself but I am not now it everywhere I go I meet it it must be understood in this way in order to merge with sexness so I think it's it's really true as Richard Baker said to me Baker actually said to me the first time I left Tassajara after being here living here for six and a half years it's Tassajara out there too it really is the world the nature of reality is the same here as it is there if that isn't true it doesn't do us any good to be here so as we're walking alone everywhere we need it and may it be so

[51:00]

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