I vow to taste the truth and the blood of Tathagata's words. Good morning. Well, those of you who know me know that I have a lot of experience. I have a slight writing habit, so sometimes, despite myself, I write things down.

[01:11]

And occasionally, I write an essay. And somebody recently called me up, the Shambhala Sun editor, Melvin McLeod, who lives up there in Nova Scotia, and he said, we're doing an issue of the Shambhala Sun on sex and love, and would you write an essay for this issue? And I thought that was a challenging assignment. So I said, sure. So this morning, instead of a usual dharma talk, I would like to present to you my essay, the first draft of my essay on this topic, which has the title, Romance. I hope that's all right, because I don't have another talk. So, romance.

[02:19]

There is nothing more miraculous to me than the experience of looking at a baby, especially if the baby is your own, but any baby will probably do. The perfect fingers and toes with their tiny, precise nails. The intense face with its soulful expression, devoid of any defensiveness or posturing. The round, soft body, always alive with motion, or utterly, utterly reposed. A picture of pristine humanness that delights the eye and heart. Parents can spend hours gazing at their babies with endless fascination. How could such a creature exist, and where could it have come from?

[03:30]

How is it that it seems to look exactly like so many different relatives at once? How can its personality be already so clear, and at the same time so unformed? The very nature of our lives seems to be called in question by this small person, whose fierce impulse simply to exist puts everything pale by comparison. To really look at a baby in this way is to feel with immediacy a powerful, selfless, healing love that astonishes you with its purity and warmth. Overcome by it, you easily lose yourself in wonder.

[04:36]

This is because the baby evokes an experience of pure human possibility. She, having only recently come up out of emptiness, bears still the marks. Pure skin, soft limbs, perfect features, clear and unadulterated karma before the formation of self with all its messy anxieties and complicated desires. The same feeling comes over us when we fall in love. The beloved doesn't appear as just another person. She is rather the occasion, the location of something unlimited, a feeling of connection and destiny that dissolves our habitual selfishness and isolation.

[05:42]

We're overcome with a warm and enthusiastic feeling that can't be denied and that will distract us day and night. We exist in a special zone of delight as a result of this encounter with the unexpected force of love. All songs, soap operas and most stories feed on whatever memory or longing we have for this feeling. So I think that these kinds of experiences, which are always fleeting, though the commitments and consequences that flow from them can last a lifetime, I think these experiences are flashes of enlightenment, or maybe more precisely flashes of what is called in Buddhism bodhicitta,

[06:50]

the oceanic impulse toward enlightenment not only for ourselves but for all beings. Unlike anything else we think or experience, bodhicitta is not a creation of ego. We don't decide to fall in love with our mate or our child. It is something that happens to us willy-nilly, a force of nature whose source is unknown to us. The sutras call this bodhicitta unproduced, which is to say unconditioned, unlimited. We can't even say it exists in the ordinary sense of the word. And this is why so many people doubt that it exists and think of it as a youthful delusion.

[07:58]

But when we experience it, it lifts us up, releases us from all that holds us to earth. Love occurs, we now know, although we don't know what it is. We only know that we have been overcome. To speak in using the terminology of Buddhadharma, we could say that love has twin impulses, emptiness and compassion. Using more ordinary language we could translate these as wonder and warmth. Emptiness points to the miraculous nature of phenomena, that things are not actually what they appear to us to be, that they are rather than separate, connected,

[09:06]

that they are rather than fixed and weighted, fluid and light. And when we see a baby, when we look into the face of our beloved, we know that the way we've been conditioned to see the world just isn't right, that the world is not a fearful and problematic challenge. It is instead a beautiful, beautiful gift. And we are always at its center. This comes to us primarily not as a thought and not even really as an emotion, but as a total physical experience so compelling that we have a strong impulse to merge with another and through that other with the whole world.

[10:13]

We want to pour ourselves out of ourselves and into the beloved as if our whole body were water. So love is quite naturally and positively connected with the sexual. Minds don't love, neither do hearts. Minds and hearts are only abstractions. Whole beings, embodied beings love. And naturally we want to cuddle and kiss and touch and hold and feel the literal warmth of the other thoroughly penetrate our bodies. And one of the most wonderful things and one of the most necessary things is to hold your child, physically hold your child next to your cheek or next to your heart, to lie down with her at bedtime, kiss goodnight, maybe fall asleep together.

[11:18]

That's a sweet sleep. And this is a wonderful thing for a parent to experience and a wonderful thing for a child. This big, peaceful feeling of security, of belonging and of transcendent warmth. And sometimes a person can spend a whole lifetime longing just to return to this feeling. And in just the same way, it is utterly relieving and wonderful and necessary to fall into the sexual embrace with the beloved, to enter each other with warmth and delight and finally peaceful release. It takes enormous trust to give yourself in this way, holding nothing back. It's a form of liberation.

[12:20]

There's no sense of control, reserve or separateness. And there's no one there who could stand aloof. So I'm sure that this is all true. But I also know that this is not what most of us experience most of the time. Sexuality may be, in its essence, the natural expression of a pure and selfless love. But it is also, in the deep economy of human emotion, quite chameleon-like. According to inner conditions, it takes on many colors. Clearly, the body only seldom operates in the pure service of selflessness. More often, the liberative signals that are always potentially present

[13:25]

because we can, at any moment, fall in love with the whole world, these liberative signals that are potentially there get distorted by confusion of ego. And we become conditioned to see sexuality as an object of desire. We see sexuality or experience it as a replacement for so much else in our lives that we need to but are unable to come into contact with. So, sexuality so often becomes, among many other things, a way to express a need for power, a way to avoid loneliness or pain, frustration, fear. Probably nothing in our experience is more apt to produce self-deception, self-confusion, than sexuality. And when sexuality becomes deeply self-deceptive,

[14:25]

it becomes dark and becomes a source of an enormous suffering. The Buddha recognized this and respected sexuality very deeply, I think. And he saw its potential for disaster. He knew that the spiritual path naturally and beautifully contains an erotic element. And he knew that the chances for perversion were very slim. The chances for perversion of the erotic are very great. So he taught the practice of celibacy as a path toward love. Most of us don't think of celibacy in that way, but I think it must be like that, a loving and warm practice. And if not, I would say that that's not really a true practice of celibacy. It's just a justification for a coldness or distance that one may naturally prefer,

[15:31]

maybe out of some fear of other people. But a real celibate practitioner is free, because he or she is not attached to any one or several particular persons, to develop a universal love and warmth that includes self and everyone, all held in the basket of the way. But for those of us who do not choose or cannot choose a path of celibacy, our challenge is to include our beloved or our family as a part of our practice, as exactly the avenue for the development of wide and broad love for the whole world. The fact is, there isn't any way that love can be narrow or exclusive. Certainly, we tend to see it that way.

[16:33]

As if, if we were to love one person or be loyal to one group, we couldn't love another person or be loyal to another group, so we make it very small. But this is a perversion of the real energy of love. Because love's salient characteristic is exactly its unlimitedness. It may start local, but it always seeks to find, through the local, the universal. And if that natural process of the opening and widening of love is subverted, then love will become perverted. It has to either grow and grow and grow, or it will go sour. It can't be reduced or hemmed in. Of course, this is the most common thing in the world, for love to become reduced. We find ourselves making big efforts to domesticate the beloved,

[17:36]

as if she were known and predictable, subject to our needs, possessible. This is where we have jealousy, selfishness, disappointment, the desire to control, and the fear of change. What was once love, easily becomes a mutual conspiracy of smallness. And there's nothing more common among long-lasting and seemingly successful relationships than this embattled holding on to the past, in a way that usually ends up being quite unhappy. And it's debatable whether this is preferable to the endless seeking for the perfect mate that goes on among those who see divorce or breakup as a better remedy for an inner restlessness.

[18:39]

So unfortunately, these are the usual paths that intimate relationships take. So it's a tough go. And we have many jokes, you know, always about this, how hard relationships are and so on. And the only wonder is that people keep trying that the power of love and our longing for it is so great that we keep trying in the face of such painfully poor odds. So I think the alternative to these forms of suffering that love can bring is to see that it is absolutely necessary to practice renunciation within the context of loving relationships. I think it really is necessary for us to be willing

[19:45]

in the center of our relationship to give the beloved up, to recognize that we can never really know her, or, in an absolute sense, ever really depend on her any more than we can depend on our own body or on the weather. She or he is a mystery and as such completely unpossessable. So giving her up is not a matter of making a sacrifice. If we had had our eyes open from the start, we would have seen that the real vision of love was showing us this all along. All things are impermanent, created fresh each moment and then gone.

[20:48]

Since this is so, the miracle of love between two people or within a family is something precious and brief. Any human relationship is really brief. We're together for a short while and then inevitably we part. To love someone truly is to recognize this every day, to see the preciousness of the beloved and of the time we have together, to renounce any clinging need for or dependency on the other, and to make the effort to open our hands so that instead of hanging on, we are nurturing and supporting. People often wonder how it's possible in the face of impermanence to make a long-term commitment in a relationship. It certainly seems on the basis of logic

[21:53]

that we either are going to deny impermanence and assert our endless vow or accept it and move on as soon as things change. That seems quite logical. But it is exactly impermanence that inspires what I would call a true commitment. Exactly because things must always change and we cannot prevent them. Arises in our heart this limitless vow to remain faithful to love because love is the only thing that is absolutely in harmony with change. Love is change. It is the movement and color of the world. It's a feeling of constancy, openness, and appreciation for the wonder of the world. A feeling that we can be true to

[22:57]

no matter what circumstances may bring. So although this may seem impossibly idealistic, I really feel it is quite practical and also the only chance to really respect the Beloved, to give as completely as we possibly can, asking for nothing in return. Nothing. In faith that what we need will be provided without our insisting on it too much. It may seem like the world is changing like the work of a saint. But really, I don't think there's any other way. And in order to do it, we'll have to recondition our ego,

[23:57]

soften it up a bit, knock off the rough edges so that it can become pliable enough, fearless enough, to actually be open to what comes. And to be permissive, in the best sense of that word, for another. If this is true with our lover or spouse, it's even more true with our children. And really, when you think about it, this is the basic spiritual practice, isn't it? All other practices are in the service of this. This is what it's all about. So, it seems to me that for most of us, this journey of loving relationships, though, as we say, it's difficult,

[25:01]

it's probably, realistically, our best chance to develop the bodhicitta. In Mahayana Buddhism, this bodhicitta, this seemingly impossible and unlimited aspiration for enlightenment, not only for ourselves, but for all creatures, unlimited numbers of creatures, to develop this aspiration and really have conviction with it, this is the heart of the practice. This is the beginning of the practice and the end of the practice. So, it's only logical that if we're trying to develop a love that big and that thorough, it's good to have some place to start. It's nice to have somebody to practice on, you know? I mean, after all, if we can't have that feeling for one person, how can we hope to have it for unlimited numbers of beings? So, practice is not about some,

[26:10]

something about me and my aloneness, my insight, my enlightenment. It's really about developing love, starting with one person, or two, or three persons. So, to really love your lover, husband, wife, children, taking that on as the most challenging, the most worthwhile of all of life's projects is a very noble thing. And it is possible, but it is work and effort involved. We know it's possible because all of us have felt from time to time the compelling force of love,

[27:13]

even if we've almost entirely forgotten it. Melvin McLeod asked for a rather short essay. That's the end of my talk. Thank you. May our intention... Poetry. Availability. Raja, did anybody ever tell you that you look like Steven Spielberg? Yeah? Yeah? Because I saw the Academy Awards and I was astonished. I thought it was you. The resemblance, at least on the TV, is quite remarkable. Good morning again.

[28:26]

So now we have a chance to discuss things. What do you have on your mind that you'd like to bring up? Yes? You touched on this among many things, but sometimes couples, when they get together, they seem to form kind of a closed system of what is reality. It's like I have an idea, I think so-and-so is kind of a loop. We're not talking. And then if the other person agrees, then it seems to solidify it and become so. And then both people start acting as if this is a fact. Yeah, that happens. I find that the most troublesome part of couples. Yeah. Well, I know that you're speaking from the perspective of a person who lives and works in Zen Center. And it's always, it's not only true anywhere, but it's more noticeable

[29:29]

if the couple lives and works in our community, right? Where the effects of their being that way reverberate in many directions. Whereas in the world at large, if you work somewhere, you might not know the person's spouse. And even if you do know them, you don't know them that intimately, perhaps. So you're unaware of the kind of dynamic of their relationship. That is common, yeah. I mean, it's like one of the ways that we cement our intimacy is by agreeing about who we don't like. You know? Like, oh, you and I really must be really close because we both know that so-and-so is really a bad person. So we reinforce each other in that wonderful point of view. Therefore, you know, increasing our togetherness. But in the end, of course, this is not a good idea,

[30:30]

I don't think. It doesn't really, in fact, increase our real intimacy. It only increases a kind of attachment. So yeah, this is what I was talking about. And it can get to the point of caricature, you know, in somebody that's a couple that's been married for, you know, many, many, many, many years and has done this for a long time. So the challenge is how to love each other without creating a closed and small-minded reality together. Can this be done? You know? And this is the challenge. And I feel like it's the only way to go about it in the end. So. Yes? When will this article be coming out? Well, you never know if it will come out because Melvin MacLeod might read it and say, I don't like it. He could. But if it would come out, I actually don't know. I guess it's for the next issue because he was telling me I had to get it done fast. So I assume it's

[31:31]

for the next issue. But, you know, I don't see the magazine that often. I don't even know if it comes out once a month or what. Every two months. Every two months. So it's probably a couple of issues down the line. Yeah, so I'm afraid I don't know. I was deeply touched by it. Oh, thank you. Yeah. I would really like to be able to have it. Mm-hmm. And for some of the reasons that Gloria spoke of and also it brought to me I see this happening with my son and his wife. And it's so difficult to see happening and yet underneath it all is this the recognition of this deep love that's there. Yeah, yeah. So I really would like to read this. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, they'll probably edit it and improve it too by the time they're done. Well, yeah. You touched on something

[32:35]

that I haven't really seen expounded on very much except with Karen Hornbeck. And that is the idea that love serves as a soldier in many different different forces. Yes, right, right. And sexuality particularly. Right. That was very, very well said. Yeah, yeah. I loved your talk. Thank you, yeah. Well, you know, the thing is that when it comes to other people our observations of other people and how well they're doing in terms of what we feel is a good path for us it's always best to be extremely patient and to recognize that we don't really see, you know, the other person. We don't really know exactly what their life is, you know. So it's important because otherwise if we look around we can see plenty of examples of how not to do things. I mean, it's very easy.

[33:36]

That's the easiest thing in the world, you know, to see. But somehow we have to have a big tolerance and see things in their widest context. So, who knows how things go. Mm-hmm. I also really enjoyed your talk. Oh, thank you. And one thing I that's been a source of sort of confusion in my own life is kind of the aspect of needs and desires. Mm-hmm. And you mentioned something at the end of your talk where more of the the idea of giving or the idea of opening, you know, to the other person. Where does our own needs and desires come into play? Because it seems I know in my own life I've been conditioned to give. I mean, that part has been Mm-hmm.

[34:36]

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, it's very important to have a clear awareness as much as we possibly can. So, we should definitely be in touch with our desires, in touch with our needs. But I feel like if we insist on getting what we need and fulfilling our desires, especially if we depend on someone else to make sure that that happens, and we're insisting on it, you know, then I think that it's going to be a hard go, it seems like to me, because you can't really ever depend on such things. So, I feel, and what I was saying in the talk is I really feel as if although it seems idealistic, I think in the end it's the most practical thing to try your best to give to the other person and not expect anything in return.

[35:40]

That doesn't mean be unaware of your needs. You should be aware, but not really expect that the other person kind of owes you that. And then I think if there really is love there, the other person is going to spontaneously help you with what you really need. And I think that you inspire that person to do that by your doing that, see? So rather than a conspiracy of smallness, we have a conspiracy of generosity. We conspire together to develop our generosity. And in order to do that, each person has to take a risk. I'll be generous. I'll just be generous even though I don't receive anything in return. And then of course, you know, one has to be always recognized that this is the kind of project that we're always working on and never really being able to do. So in other words, if you see that you're being eaten up alive by your needs and desires no matter how much you're trying to be aware of them but not insist on them, then you have to

[36:40]

just be honest about that and put that on the table as part of your relationship. But now, I think what happens is we get aggressive in subtle ways about our needs and desires. You know, because we really expect, I think we have deep conditioning around this, that, okay, I'm in this relationship so how come I'm not happy? Or how come I'm not fulfilled? Or how come I'm not getting what I need, you know? Well, I should be. You know, how come you're not, even though we might not say anything as crude as that, we have deep conditioning around that. So I think that when we get aggressive about our needs and desires, that's when we create resentment and unhappiness in a relationship, I feel. So, but it is possible to try your best, not be able to do very well and express yourself truly about how it is for you without the feeling that somebody else should be doing something for you. But just say, here's the effort I'm trying to make and here's how I can't do it, you know? And I really feel awful about it but this is how it is,

[37:41]

you know? That's the best we can do. So, it's hard to talk about these things, I feel, because this is also abstract, you know what I mean? Things never appear in the abstract. These things appear in the concrete situation of who we are and what our relationship is like. And so, you have to just take these abstractions and get whatever good out of them you can and discard the rest because there are no recipes or prescriptions for these sorts of things. I'm just trying to give some general thoughts about my experience and about how I understand the Buddhist teachings in the light of this but who knows, you know, what will really be effective. So, just try your best. Yes? I'm just curious about the stages in the relationship in terms of working with that key point about respecting the mystery of the other person or realizing that you really don't know

[38:41]

the other person. I've heard you say that before in other lectures and I think it's a really valuable point because of course our culture pretends the exact opposite. The longer with the person, the bigger the other person's capacity to handle your loose antithesis. yeah. No, no. Well, all you have to do is do zazen long enough and then you know you don't even know yourself, right? You see the complexity and depth of what arises in your own mind and, you know, if you really and truly become still in zazen and really let go of your conditioning and really see the mind, you have no, it's a big I don't know. And everybody is that, right? So how could you possibly think you could limit somebody? You know, whenever we characterize somebody and we say so and so is like this and she's going to do this or he's going to be like that, that's always not true. You know, it's always, yeah, always, yeah, because people feel limited by that

[39:43]

and disrespected. Somehow, the extent to which we are sensitive to not being respected, not being characterized by somebody is immense, I find. It's immense how we hurt each other, you know, and not intending to, but just by assuming we know what the other person, you know, is going to do or going to think. So to keep an open mind and an open heart about not only one's spouse or lover, but everyone and to respect, you know, all sentient beings without exception have the Buddha nature. This is the nature of creatures in this world and to keep that alive, that thought alive, to keep that insight alive and real is, I think, the best thing that we could possibly do for a wholesome and good human relations, whether it's in the context of a, you know, an intimate relationship or any kind of relationship. It's hard to do,

[40:44]

but the more we look at our own mind, the more it's easy to do. You know, I've been married for twenty-some years and my wife is a total mystery to me. I have the faintest idea, you know, what she's thinking or what she's... Honestly, I mean, wow, it's amazing. What will she do next? I have no idea. But I trust her. You know, I trust her. So... Yes? Oh, good. Oh, good. I realize that I cannot love one person close to me, but it's very easy to pray for everybody and love, you know, in a bigger perspective. It's so easy to love every human being and yet it's so difficult

[41:45]

to stand, you know, just... I see myself as a, you know, I get really discouraged about myself. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wonder if you talk more about that celibacy, the path that Buddha chose in order to be able to love everybody. You know, how other than Buddha and... How, what was the method? How did I learn more so I can Well, I often say that Buddha said in relation to intimate relationships, this is much too hard for me. So Buddha figured that, you know, it was too hard for him, but we're blithely going along and we're doing this. So, so we shouldn't be discouraged, right? You see what I mean? This is the most

[42:46]

difficult thing to do. So why should we be surprised that we find that we're not able to do it perfectly? Right? So, you know, rather than thinking, well, I'm supposed to be able to love in this perfect way and probably everybody else is doing it and I'm the only one who can't do it. That's terrible. Rather than thinking of it that way, it would be better to think that the effort to love one human being is the most noble possibility in a human life. And it would take many, many lifetimes to be able to perfect it and I'm committed to trying. See, then your failure is noble failure, not terrible failure. So don't expect anything, just try your best. And actually, to pray for the benefit of others and to love others is, if you sincerely keep up that practice over time, you will

[43:46]

notice, as you already do, that although you have this beautiful aspiration for all beings, when it comes to the one person that's near you, you're not able to do it, then of course it only opens your heart and makes you feel more like you'd like to do that. So, one practice helps the other. You know, it's a good way to see it. As far as the Buddha is concerned, his idea was that when you are in an intimate relationship, then because of the relationship, there will be many obligations and activities that will come out of that relationship that will be less, he felt, less advantageous to the spiritual path than other activities. For example, if you are in an intimate relationship and you have children and family or even in-laws

[44:47]

and so forth, you have to go to different Halloween birthday party or something and then schools and then buying clothes and having a house and many, many things that come out of these relationships that he felt were not as advantageous for spiritual practice as meditation, prayer, study, memorization, solitude, quiet, and so on. So he said, better off not engaging in these things so that your chances for spiritual development will be maximized. And definitely we should respect this. I mean, there's something to this. And I have friends who are celibate monks and nuns for whom I have enormous respect for their commitment and the quiet that they carry in their lives as a result of their commitment. And I think that we ought to really see celibacy as something wonderful and worthy of respect. And if we ourselves are in a period of our life where we find

[45:48]

ourselves in that condition rather than bemoaning the fact and say, oh, how come everybody on TV has a girlfriend or boyfriend but me, better think, oh, you know, my karma is that now I can practice in this way and focus on my aloneness. And that's a benefit. I think we all need a positive vision of the practice of celibacy. I think it's very, very important. But on the other hand, it definitely, and also Dalai Lama points out that this is excellent for the population explosion. You know? No, really. If we don't think that, if we think that the whole purpose and meaning of human life and that everybody has to do that or they're a failure, as once it seemed in some societies, then we have too many people. There are downsides to that too, believe me. Plenty of downsides to that too. So it's not that that's the perfect solution. But in any case, whatever is perfect or not perfect, our path for the vast majority

[46:49]

of Western practitioners seems to be that we would be lay people, which for most of us means for some time if not most of the time in our lives that we would be in intimate relationships. And then we have to find how can we practice? How can we use the situation we're in for practice? It's not a question of whether it's the best or the worst or what. It's the question this is what it is. And we start with the faith that whatever situation we're in that can be used for practice. So we have to accept our situation and use it for practice. So that's what I was saying in my talk. If we're in an intimate relationship then we should find a way to use loving our partner as an avenue for a wider love. but yeah, there's many practices in Buddhadharma to cultivate love. But I really think that the most fundamental of them all is just the simple practice of awareness. Just to be aware and honest

[47:50]

with one's real feelings and apply awareness and where you see that you're disapproving of yourself or others to try to let go of that and simply be aware of what's happening without being disapproving. That practice eventually quiets our heart and when the heart is quiet naturally affection comes up. But there are also many other specific kinds of practices for cultivating love. Yes. I'm smiling. That's nice. Because I think I've experienced some of the most sexual energy among nuns and priests because I think there's a distinction here that because you choose to be celibate it doesn't mean that you can't have sexual energy in your body

[48:50]

and miss it from your own human and your own creations that you have to create from it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to act it out in some ways to still have sexual energy in your body. Yeah. And the question I have for you is that you have mentioned in your life that you trust her and I wanted to know if that trust just came just simply accepting her for who she is or just Well, yeah, it's hard to say. I don't really know. I mean, maybe we've been through different many fights and troubles over the years and perhaps we won through to a trust and certainly I'm always trying to work on my practice and so is she so I don't know

[49:51]

how much that has to do with it. It's hard to say. I don't know. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Yeah, I guess ultimately our trust is trust in the whole universe, trust in birth and death. Then we trust everything.

[50:51]

Yeah. So, we work on our practice, I guess. Yeah, so, that's nice. I hope, I wish you the best of luck and happiness. Mm-hmm. I'm interested in what you said before about when the mind becomes quiet, affection naturally arises. Mm-hmm. Well, I think when the mind really does become quiet, completely quiet and there's just being present without anybody there to be present but just presence, then this is the feeling of belonging and connection. And so, affection is very natural, you know, a very warm feeling toward the world comes from the mind being quiet. I think this is just what we

[51:53]

feel, what we find in practice. And, you know, if you read the sutras, the sutras talk about this. They talk about emptiness engenders compassion, they say. In the sutras it says. And this is, this is why. Because emptiness means that nothing exists absolutely because everything is completely connected so much that there aren't any things. There's only connection. That's all there is, is connection, connection, connection, connection. Nothing that you can say, oh, there's something. There's only connection. We mutually co-produce each other in the whole world moment after moment after moment. And when you, when the mind is quiet and this truth becomes apparent, then naturally, you know, loving another or loving the world is just like loving oneself. There's no difference. So this is,

[52:55]

I think, common to all traditions, all religious traditions. This is the idea. So there's a fearlessness, right, and a trusting quality that comes from this. Yeah. Well, I've got a lot of thoughts going on here so I'm going to try and be articulate but probably won't work out. What I'm thinking is, I don't think that in your talk you addressed sort of the single aspect of relationship. I mean, I feel like I've been sort of in un-self-imposed celibacy for some time and I feel that it's really been a good opportunity for me to sort of sit with my sexuality and have thoughts about what is sexuality and sexuality, my sexuality, connected with this idea of self-deception

[53:56]

because I find myself in a position right now where I have a friendship which could potentially be a relationship. However, and I'm feeling all those things that you were talking about, the connectedness and a lot of strong sense of connection but the external circumstances of this relationship do not suggest a good prognosis. So, it's like, what do you do with that? Do you just sit with that? Because it's really hard. Well, I appreciate all of you so sweetly bringing up these intimate matters but, of course, it's obvious that I don't know the answers to these questions. So, however, I'm never at a loss

[54:59]

for words. So, as long as you understand that I'm not answering anybody's questions and I will not be held accountable for whatever, either whatever disasters or successes occur, they will have nothing to do with me but still, talk is cheap, right? So, one thing is that I think that maybe by now, you know, the 60s were a long time ago, right? And maybe by now it is clear that a gentle restraint can be part of a fulfilling life. That maybe we've gotten over the idea that if we restrain ourselves in any way with our impulses and so forth, we're doing violence to our spirit. So, it doesn't seem that that's true. In fact, there can be as much

[55:59]

fulfillment and enjoyment, literally, in a gentle and wise restraint as there can, probably more than there can in an unwise acting out of various kinds of impulses that we have inside. So, like around here, you know, we deal with these kind of questions all the time because we have this thing that is never seen anywhere in Asia, which is a semi-monastic environment in which men and women practice together and in which intimate relationships are possible. So, it happens all the time. And what we've discovered over the years is that things actually work out better for everyone concerned when there's a restraint of sexuality. In other words, the longer the time that there is, the more we can develop our friendship and really get to know each other and really develop a sense of where

[57:00]

we're going and what we're doing together, the better it is. Before we establish an intimate relationship, so we actually have a very strong sort of we have certain rules that are kind of rudimentary, but apart from the rules that we have, there's a very strong community bias in favor of this is our community here, in favor of commitment in relationships. So, basically, you can't have casual liaisons with people. If that happens, you probably will be asked to leave the community because it creates such a disturbance. Imagine, few people living together, you know. So, that means that there's a strong, for better or worse, I don't say this is the right thing, but just in the practicality of our living together, in practicing together, there's a strong push or encouragement for people who are getting together to say, well, we're going to have some commitment together. Now, we don't ask that people become married immediately when

[58:01]

they create an intimate relationship, but we ask that they become pretty much monogamous. So, that's just our, so I think that that turns out to be practical in the sense that it reduces suffering for the individuals and for the whole community because when, I mean, it's like almost sometimes, I roll my eyes sometimes at the extent to which if somebody is having, you know, say one time there was a couple here who said that they had, they had a name for it, but the kind of relationship where each one of them was able to have other partners, sexual partners. Hmm? Well, it's not exactly something. They had, no, they made up their own name for it. They had their own. Anyway, so, you know, the extent to which this was like discussed and worried over, made my eyes roll. You know, it's like we had nothing else to do for months, you know, but, and yet,

[59:04]

so that's what, that is what happens, you know. So, so, what am I trying to say? If, if there's a wise restraint and if you can, and it's not just like, you know, holding yourself down, but rather just, you know, practicing that with, with some good spirit, then you go along with the way things go. So, if things are going in another direction, and that's real obvious, like you seem to indicate, whoops, you know, that's not the way it seems to be going because of conditions, then you say, okay, well that's conditions, thank you very much, and this is a wonderful friendship, and that's all it is. But if conditions seem to make it a path of happiness and not suffering, then, then you go that way. So, one has to just be very attentive to one's own heart and to one's life. Definitely, you know, it would be nice if human beings were such that we could program all this in and then turn it on, and then

[60:05]

we just go along and everything goes perfectly. It never happens like that, right? There's gonna be mistakes and there's gonna be suffering, and sometimes the mistakes and the suffering is what had to happen, right? Sometimes that's how we end up where we're supposed to be. So all we can do is use our best judgment and try to, in my, this is my feeling, try to practice the way, try to practice precepts, try to be committed not to hurting others, and do our best, you know? So, and I think that it is very important when we are in, like you said, a period of non-intentional celibacy, to actually make that celibacy intentional. That's within our power. We can say, well, since this is the way it is for me right now, why don't I take that as an advantage? Why don't I emphasize that outside of my life? And what an opportunity. Somebody else might wish that they could have this kind of solitude and peacefulness, and they don't. So why don't I

[61:05]

take it on as something positive rather than something, you know, that's a problem. And I think that's the only way to do it when this is how it is in our lives. So, anyway, good luck with this situation. Yes? You were talking earlier about, I'm just kind of paraphrasing, but about being a loving person, and it seems to be the spiritual goal of all religions, to love everyone. And I found that when I was talking to everyone, there were a lot of men who had a queue that was actually available. And there always seems to be a dilemma for men. And I was wondering if you have any thoughts on that? Well, of course, let's not discuss the intelligence and emotional

[62:05]

subtlety of men or not. But because that's not within your possibility of changing, right? In other words, if men don't know how to relate to women without making unwanted advances, well, let's hope that we have, eventually, enough laws and rules and social and cultural information that, eventually, they'll be able to that And that doesn't happen, well, I don't to change

[63:07]

the way that I relate to women. I don't to change way that I relate to women. I to change the that I relate to women. I don't to change the way I I don't to change the that relate to women.

[64:07]

I don't to change the way that I relate to women. I don't to change the way that

[65:09]

change the way that relate to I don't to change the way that I women. the way that I relate to women. I don't to change the way that I relate

[66:11]

to women. I don't change the way that to women. change way that I relate to women. I don't change the way that I relate to women. to change women. I don't

[67:14]

to change to women. I don't to change the way that I relate to women. I don't to change the way that I to I don't to change the that to I don't to change the that to women. I don't change the way that

[68:34]

relate I don't to change the that relate to women. I don't to change

[69:37]

the way that I relate to women. I don't way that I don't to change the that relate I don't to change the way that I relate to women. I don't to

[70:38]

change the way that I relate to women. I don't women. I I

[71:38]

don't to that to women. I don't change I don't to change the way that relate to women. I don't to change the way that relate I don't to change the way that I relate women.

[72:59]

don't to change the way that relate don't relate to women. I don't to work that great for the Catholics, I think, you know, I think that's true. Celibacy, I don't know the history of the Catholic Church, and I'm sure that at one time celibacy was positive, or maybe it was, but it seems like on balance, in balance, it's not a great deal right now for the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church's inability to allow the clergy to marry or allow women to join the clergy, I think, is probably one of the chief, sort of, weights dragging the Church down, which otherwise, I think, has a lot going for it, but that's one of the big things that's pulling it down, and if it doesn't change, in my opinion, if it doesn't change, it's going to pull it down below the horizon so that nobody can see it at all, you know. But I think Buddhism, for us, is a fresh tradition, and although it may be that celibacy and Buddhism has its downsides also, for us, it's something positive, I think, at this point in time.

[74:07]

I'm not sure I have a question, so I'm going to do a comment. That's better, I'm glad. I recently began coming out as bisexual some years ago, and I had trouble with accepting my own sexuality. Within my family, there's bias towards queer people, particularly in South America, where the ideas of how women should be are very rigid. They get married early, they have children, they don't go to school, they certainly aren't gay. I don't think that transgenders are even considered. So I haven't really been celibate, but I have not been in a relationship in a long time. Whenever I've really been in a relationship, I've been with men, though when I began to

[75:17]

come out, I realized, well, I've been in love with women, too, it's just I haven't really been very sexual with them. And there are times when I consider celibacy as a lie, because I feel like I'm heading that way, and yet I don't want to take the vow because I want to leave the door open. And I'm not sure why I'm pissed off, it's just you, so far you haven't mentioned alternative sexuality, and I was just wondering what your views are, or if you have any comments about this, because it's been a source of pain to realize, oh, if I fall in love with a woman, that's not going to always be accepted, even if they're my own family. And that's injured me, I know, in a big way, because that's up to me to decide. I'm sort of resenting the restrictions put upon me, with the biases out there.

[76:21]

At this point, I don't think I would fall in love with a man anymore, I might, but I definitely think I'm more attracted to women, and that's who I am, and I'm not the person who I think my family wants me to be, I'm not married, I've never been married, I don't have children, and I think this is really shaping me up, because there's no one else in my family like me that I know, and I'd definitely be like an outsider. I came here half a year ago, I moved to California a year ago, because I love the spirit of this place, and I think there are a lot of people like me here, particularly in the San Francisco area, and I think my family's spending a lot of time just with that, too, the fact that I've gone off by myself, without, I didn't follow a man, I didn't marry a man, I came here by myself, to live my own life. It's hard, it can be very hard, just to accept that part of yourself, and then want

[77:28]

other people to accept it and realize they're not always going to, so I don't know if you want to talk about that. Well, I know that, yeah, it's very difficult to do something that one's loved ones and associates don't like or agree with, and then it's even harder to be something that we deeply are, that we can't choose not to be, and have that be unacceptable. I think there's a lot of suffering involved in that, and I think that, therefore, gay people have suffered a lot, and still do, as you're saying. So we have to learn how to work with our suffering. In any case, that's the only thing that we can do when there's suffering. I actually don't know much about gay culture or the differences, if there are any differences,

[78:38]

in the way relationships go in the gay community, but we have a number of gay people in Zen Center, and it seems as if their sexuality, in terms of how their life goes, is not any different, in the sense that they are heard in the same way, are fulfilled in the same way, and so on. It's just that the gender of the partner is not the same as somebody else. So, I don't know, and I have the sneaking suspicion that nobody does. In other words, people are so various and so different, it's very difficult to say how a group of people are, as a group of people, when there are so many people in a group, how could you say? And even if you could say, any one person is possibly, to a greater or less extent, an exception. So it wouldn't be any better or worse to say, this is the norm for gay people, and I'm gay,

[79:45]

but I don't fit into that norm, so then I'm still suffering, because I'm abnormal, even though the norm is a different norm. So it's best to just listen to our own heart, and accept our suffering and work with it, and in relation to other people, to listen to them and see what they tell us, rather than assume that they're supposed to be this way or that way. And it's especially painful, I think, when our family, we all want, I think on some level, whatever we think about it, I think we all want to have the love and approval of our family members, and I think it's very painful not to have that, very, very painful. And I think that it's better to recognize that we want that, and to feel the pain of not having it, than it is to be angry and resentful toward our family, because I think that compounds the pain and makes for a very confusing life. And so I believe, and I have seen it happen many times, that if we keep a loving heart,

[80:46]

and if we work on our practice, no matter what we are doing that our family may not approve of, eventually they will approve of it. Even if they don't leap up and down and tell us that, they will. But I think to a great extent, we can affect that by our loving heart, keeping an open heart toward them, and feeling the suffering and the pain of the way that we are hurt by them. So it's a very unfair and sad situation, but in many cases that is the situation. So always, you know, we work with the situation as it is. It doesn't do any good to, you know, wish it were otherwise. And again, I feel like to practice the way is to get the tools that we need to work with these kind of things, to open our space big enough within us that we can feel pain, and not feel as if we have to run away from it, or find a narcotic for it, or lash out at

[81:48]

somebody else. But that we can just feel it and work with it, and turn it into something beautiful. And certainly if you read the life stories of many gay people over the millennia, this has often happened. Some people made something very beautiful out of the suffering in their lives, in many cases. Other times, people are destroyed by it, too. That happens. So, anyway, good luck with it. I appreciate that everybody is so sweet and so trusting, not me, but of all of us, that you could bring up these things and feel as if it's all right to do that. It's kind of wonderful in a way, although I feel quite inadequate to responding to it all, but I think it is wonderful that you feel safe enough and peaceful enough to do that. Yes? On the level of intimacy, I'm in a very loving relationship with my partner, which

[82:54]

has really been a miracle for me. I was sexually abused for many years. And your discussion really helped me today in talking about the relationship between sex and love. And I guess I'm in this wonderful relationship, but of course, my instinct is to share, share in that love. But obviously, sexually, I feel very damaged. I feel a lot of pain, and I guess I'm trying to find my way in this relationship sexually and have been celibate with my partner for a couple of weeks. And when you brought up celibacy, some people choose celibacy to avoid.

[83:57]

When I first chose to be celibate, I didn't feel like I was avoiding anything. But then when you brought it up today, I realized that I am somewhat avoiding being open, basically because I have fear associated with it. And I was wondering if you have any suggestions or ideas in terms of recovering? Well, of course, I'm really sorry about what has happened. This is such a terrible thing. People could be this way. And when we have been wounded, we have to respect our wounds.

[85:00]

Just like I was saying a minute ago, we have to respect our wounds and our pain and take it into account. We can't just roll over it and think, oh, I shouldn't be feeling that, or why can't I just get over this? Life doesn't work that way. Karma is not like that, that we can just get over something. So it's probably a long process with which you have to be very patient. And if your partner is a loving person and a patient person also and can understand and you can explain and work on it together and build up trust, then this is probably the best possible situation for healing as long as you're patient little by little, without expectations, grateful for the situation you're in now just as it is. But people do heal from these things and even in the end, believe it or not, can learn to

[86:06]

appreciate their circumstances, even with the pain and suffering, because it brings a kind of wisdom or a kind of deep sense of compassion. And it's the most common thing in the world that people who help others in a particular area, somebody who helps alcoholics can do it beautifully because they themselves have been through it, and so on and so on and so on. Because emptiness engenders compassion and suffering engenders compassion also. So, little by little, with kindness toward yourself and not any pressure on yourself. But little by little, I think the way to heal these kind of wounds is to build up trust because this is a scar on your ability to trust. So, maybe it's wise for you not to be precipitous, but just to work on trust, work on trust, work on trust.

[87:06]

So anyway, I'm glad that you have a relationship now that can heal these wounds. That's wonderful. And I would like to end with dedicating our time together today, my talk as well as our wonderful hour here with each other. Sometimes they say in Buddha Dharma that to hear the Dharma creates merit, positive merit. If that's so, and we have by our time together created some positive merit, I would like to dedicate that merit to all those people that we know, ourselves, and also our friends, family, loved ones, associates, any of them who might be suffering in some way through illness or emotional or mental pain. May they have their suffering lessened with this merit.

[88:13]

May they find happiness and peace. May they always be removed from the conditions of suffering. May this be so for ourselves and for them. And may the merit also extend beyond ourselves and the circle of our friends widely to all beings. May all beings be free from suffering and the condition of suffering. And may there be a time in the future someday when people will no longer cause each other to suffer in this way. May this not, may there be a day when this will never be the case. This is what I hope for, and this is what we dedicate the merit of our meeting today towards. So thank you very much. Thank you.

[89:14]

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