Good afternoon. This is part of Humanities Division Workshop 68. Today we don't really have much of an introduction. We have Dick Baker of the Zen Center in San Francisco. The Zen Center is about eight years old. They have lectures twice a week and they have meditation every morning and every afternoon. They have about 80 students coming to their lectures and they have about 60 coming to their meditation periods. So without further ado, I'll introduce Dick Baker of the Zen Center. Hello. I never know quite how to talk about Zen to people. Can you hear me in the back? Yes. Because for me, in a way, Zen doesn't really exist and also it depends so completely

[01:14]

on meditation for most people that it's hard to just talk about it. So I called, when he asked me for a title of the lecture, I called it No Zen. And also most of the books on Zen which have come out have treated it as something special, not talked much about meditation and made it rather attractive. And there's a kind of unattractive side to Zen too. I'd rather, in a way, talk about the unattractive or more difficult side. Most of the books particularly have made it a sort of sugar coat. Not that Zen is unpleasant but it has a kind of... because I drove through the Yellowstone National Park a while ago

[02:18]

with the Zen Master. We were going north. And as we passed through Yellowstone Park it was already... and yet there were still bears which should have been hibernating in our car. And in front of the car until we were almost ready to hit them and they would jump out of the way and stop on the window. So you'd have to give them some cracker or something like that. So I asked the ranger when I came, met a ranger, why they weren't hibernating. He said, well, they like the goodies and the junk from the cars so much that they wait until the last car goes through before the snow covers the road. And they usually don't survive hibernation because they eat too much junk. And that's sort of like human beings. We lost their way in some way. Most human beings in some ways lost

[03:19]

their way. Getting yourself back to that way is not so easy. I did a three-day conference as part of the Esalen program with Mike Murphy who's head of the... not doing anything. We just went in and sat down. And no one knew what to expect. And they began to be more and more uncomfortable. And we just let them be uncomfortable until we started talking. And in a situation which was unstructured like what meditation is from the Zen point of view, meditation, watching your breathing or meditation, it's more formless in that

[04:20]

sense. Because you sit, when you meditate, you sit in a rather... and the point of that is you sit in a way in which you're... you realize that the position is comfortable. Generally it'll take a month or a year or two before it becomes comfortable. But you sit solidly and in which your body... calm. Calm isn't exactly the right word. It's a non-activity. It's actually a kind of... And so you sit this way... which really are...

[05:21]

before it forms any activity. And so that... any activity. And so... you begin to know yourself physiologically... face. And... meant to... conceptualization free you from all conceptual systems. As it dissolves other conceptual systems. And you end up... so... ready for any activity in a sense. Edward... his books are rather dry. A personal warmth

[06:30]

about himself. And in it his own involvement and commitment and... which I'll read to you. To the view elaborated by Scheller, Freud, in the core of our being a basic anxiety in which all other forms of anxiety. Pure form. Anxiety. Perspective and philosophical turn of mind. Rarely. If one has never felt it oneself. Convinced. If one has felt it. However much one may try. It may come upon you in a distant way. Withdrawn from the world. You wake up again. With astonishment at being

[07:33]

there. With tenderness. In the fact of being there. Now find yourself just for a moment again. And with an annoying sense of your part. In the face of this astonishing fact that you are there. Usually we avoid this experience as much as we possibly can. And painful. Usually I'm very... but the I plus all sorts of other experiences. People who are busy all the time. Love of us. Etc. The experience of having to be yourself. Which is why we... you enter into and live in that... and you become very confident in this

[08:36]

kind of emptiness. And for many people this is... I mean many things come up in meditation. Analysis which is really rather traumatic. Some sort of existential experience. You're very comfortable and deep. Also find yourself. There's a kind of shift. You get off the floor or something like that. At home. Emptiness. Meditate. Just like concentrating on your breathing. Or on a koan. A thinking problem into your mind.

[09:59]

Something like that. Another kind of shift. Even that. But you really understand that. All of you could go and just do that. How do you find it? It's good to have some... come through some center. It's more comfortable. When you get... try to do something about it. Regularly. Trying.

[11:05]

Again our fight. Thank you so much. Shift. Your breathing. Tendency to stop your breath. Into the oxygen on your brain. Sometimes I can't pretend to be extremely healthy. It's rather upsetting. Have some knowledge about. You can't practice by yourself. What are you doing? I'll try to give you a metaphor. When you shift. You feel the billboard. You perceive a billboard. There. You perceive reality on it.

[12:22]

Think what's going on around you. What they think. You just let thoughts come and go. Or get involved with them. Sometimes I can pay attention to your breathing. To where you're at. You don't want to try to force thoughts out of your head. Try to prevent them as much as you can. So it's more like driving on the highway would cause an accident. You let the billboard come and go. And as things that you could be doing. You just let the billboard come in the landscape. You can go beyond the billboard.

[13:28]

When you remove the billboard you have temporary consciousness. You meditate that your thoughts are temporary consciousness. And if there's a landscape. And when you perceive that. It's definitely different than in the brainwave. When you go deeper. You still think. You still have your billboard. When you go deeper. You still have your billboard.

[14:44]

This shift is also accompanied by the intention to find myself. I'm completely awakened by myself. So this is my relationship with myself. This is my relationship with myself. It's a thought. It's a thought. It's a relationship. I have a plan for that. Who I am right now. I have a plan for that. It's a relationship.

[15:59]

I have a plan for that. I have a plan for that. I'd like to say that's the actual thing. That's what it is. That's where I'm coming from. So if you're looking at it, that would have to look at it. Indeed. It's a simple little thing. Some of that, I think, is really a way of identifying myself. That's what that's about. I have a lot of diversified minds. Some of the courage are, of course, in the curvature. You're in a bad experience. Nature's going to kill you. If you're in an airplane, ten percent of the people And most of the people here, that's particularly on the ground now, they're white, white, young,

[17:40]

and they're not going to talk about it. But I think that group of people that I would like to talk to, and I have residents here, and they're terribly frustrated by who I am. I don't know. I don't hear my full voice. More amplification. No experience. Uh-huh.

[18:42]

I think, too. A lot of ROTC people. Sure. Anything like that. I've been to a lot of conferences. And, uh, theory and alpha. And optimizing. Optimizing in this way of thinking. You know, again, everything you can come out of, as you sit there, in a way that whatever happens happens. Your whole life, everything enters into this state of mind. You enjoy a state of mind. I enjoy a state of mind. But, I, for the time being,

[19:48]

I get from, you know, Torah, which directs, we, I, open to whatever. Whatever. And so, then, in the sitting day, a way to represent. If you'd like to make long lists. This is about 19. This is about 19. But, that's what I think. Yeah, I'll tell you. But, they're very, very,

[20:54]

imagine in your mind. It's hard to talk about. But, it's a whole whole thing for itself. Well, for my mind, it's there. For years. I've been there for years. I've been there for a long time. But, it's not all the time, but, and walls are sweeped up. And, this is pretty big. And that happens. So, there's a, just in the chair,

[21:59]

you feel a little more better. Anyway, very simple. Because the changes it makes. Physiologically and so forth. You're quite happy where you are. And the patient, sits and sits through it. He really sits through it, particularly when he works with me. Sometimes, during sashimi, of course. Or walking meditation. Particularly during the first day. And, this is me right now feeling the pain.

[23:04]

And, at some point, the patient becomes, and then begins to be able to deal with it. He begins to have a kind of, some level of tranquility. The problem's not that serious. It's, more like, time. Well, for most people, it's like space. And, time. It's only on the cross, it's a big space.

[24:12]

Time and space, you know. But there's a difference. You can, reverse the meditation to become more accurate. Depart the brain. Control the brain. Reverse the brain. Become active, or accurate. It's like time, maybe in first gear. Well, most people are in third gear all the time, yeah. So there's another way of ways. And now, let's do this. There's a third way of, teaching this stuff to people. One word is, positive negative brain.

[25:17]

I've talked about the negative negative brain. And, the negative brain is, it does not stop. I'm not good at it. But, there are many ways. There's a way you can look at it. Analyze it. But there's another way to look at it. Is that if I take this microphone, and I put it there. Well, otherwise it's still there. But then I turn it on. I'm suspecting, why would I put it back, if it doesn't exist?

[26:21]

Well, one way, it brings me some perception about it. If I take this microphone, immediately, what does that tell me? It's so great. It's so great. Well, this is sort of Denver, isn't it? North, North, North. Well, now, I'm negatively affected by, by the way, I'm saying that, I'm told by my husband, that this is a concoction, and a very empty form. Well, it's not just an emptiness, but it's, but it's the same pure feeling.

[27:23]

Therefore, there's no thought, no perception, no consciousness, but I am very calm, body, mind, and soul, and I don't feel anything. And this is for everything, everything outside. It's all thought. Samsara and Nirvana. But how do you understand that? It's the unusual insight. Or, the opposite. You're all in one place.

[28:36]

And you believe, and you know it. Yes, sir. Oh, of course, yes. I believe it. Yes. Yes. I don't know. Samadhi, mataji. Samadhi.

[29:43]

Samadhi. I don't like talking about it. It's sort of like, it's in the character. You know, it's sort of a trick. It's sort of an unusual experience for me. Talking about it doesn't mean you're good at talking about it. No. In some way it's unavoidable, but the more you practice it, the more you'll learn. This is your goal all the way. I know I know what I came here for. In my mind, at the same time,

[30:46]

I'm proud about my goal. And the situation we're in right now. The idea I give it to you. And, but in a way, I find my possibilities in myself, and otherwise I wouldn't have been able to have done that. One thing I've said to myself about this, and I've said this to you, and that's not so much a comment from you, and it's just that, in any event, I would offer it to you. If you... If you don't know. If you don't know. in the end, without some sort of framework,

[31:49]

in some way of practice, you don't know how to use it. You don't really know what it is. It doesn't happen that way, of course, in real life. It's... suddenly occurs to you. Now, you can have a general grasp of it. So it's sort of... Gradually, gradually, you find that these things in your mind can help you in a satisfactory way. That's what I'm trying to explain to you. When you don't know, without some sort of practice, you can't do anything about it. And in the end, in my mind, there's one thing that will make you emotional. That way,

[32:52]

you'll be able to switch. You'll be able to say, if you use your feeling energy, let's go and get a thousand dollars. Then you can live your life and bring yourself to be wonderful. So let's go and get a thousand dollars. You can make a difference in your life. ...

[33:56]

... ... ...

[35:27]

... [...] It's a very great reason to say, why are you writing to me on behalf of a young, young graduate, potentially a friend. Actually, I found out that you might like to hear that I'm actually doing that. And then I found that we all have anything to do with that news, that there's news about me. About who? I don't know who to talk to first. It's very great to hear that. You feel 100% of the way you think. I do. Yeah, I do. Uh.

[36:31]

That's like 20% of your time. You know, you're determined to do it. I haven't said anything about that. It's just that I'm nervous about it. Uh. I'll be getting a text message. All right. All right. Uh. I'm not sure if you're talking about momentary. I don't know if I can do it.

[37:49]

I think it's all in the remote control. It's interesting that you know this, but everybody's done the same, and that's still a challenge. Uh, you shouldn't have too much money to have a chance to do it, right? You shouldn't drift all alone with the help of folks. And, uh, I try, you know, to be safe, but, you know, it's pretty fucking hard. You have to have confidence, you know. You could be mad at God, and you could be mad at God, and you could be mad at God. And, you know, I did not come here to argue with you, but you should be serious about it. And so, you should be serious. And, uh, that's one level in which you're a Christian, and it's a hard part to kind of stifle a student relationship. But, um, most of it, because we're Americans, partly it's more pronounced here than Europe, it goes the other way toward too much formalism and too much dependency on teachers. Um, we have some idea

[38:52]

of doing it ourselves, of being free, of being individual, you know, and the idea of being dependent or of having a powerful relationship with another person who you follow absolutely sounds, you know, really horrendous to us. But the reason is, again, I'll try to approach it from various... When I'm talking about these things, it's not... I can't say specifically, so I sort of scatter a number of examples in the area and hope you catch an idea coming, which is that Rudolf Burckhardt, Rudolf Burckhardt, anyway, was the great historian who discovered the Renaissance. I mean, literally discovered the Renaissance. Before that, the whole concept of the Renaissance didn't exist. And he was a great historian. He particularly emphasized art, you know, and the artistic achievements of the Italians. His student and disciple was Berflin, W-O-F-F-L-I-E-N, or L-I-N, who really created the idea of Baroque art and the term painterly came into the vocabulary because of him. And then his student was Gideon, who's the great architect who wrote

[39:53]

Space, Time, and Architecture, and the person who's written a history of all culture from the point of view of design, architecture, etc. A really very great book. And these... This lineage, here there's a lineage in history from Burckhardt to Berflin to Gideon. And when you start looking at great doctors, I talked to somebody about this the other day, either psychiatrists or surgeons, etc., almost always there's a link to another surgeon who was a great surgeon. And if you look in the art, painting and poetry, there's almost not a single example you can make of a major poet who doesn't come out of a group of poets who have brought each other up to some lineage. And I've been talking recently with this, too, about a very brilliant young man who's both a Jungian and a Freudian analyst. And what is the craft that goes into helping someone? I mean, when you go to ask advice

[40:54]

from a Freudian or a Jungian or whatever, he doesn't answer you in the same way. He doesn't relate to your question the way the ordinary person would try to give you advice. Well, when you talk to a first-rate psychiatrist, they can't tell you what they do. They can't tell you exactly what it is. It's some craft, some deep craft involved, which is beyond any kind of discussion. You have to learn it intuitively from the other person. And so the master-disciple relationship is a kind of apprenticeship in which Buddhism is a very elaborate and philosophical system and very deep and lengthy practice in which a Zen master practices 20, 30, 40 years. And even then, if his teacher says he's a Zen master, that's not enough. Other people have to spontaneously recognize you as a Zen master for you to be acknowledged as a Zen master. It's up to other people to determine that you're a Zen master. You don't go around saying, I'm something special. If other people begin coming to you, then maybe you're a Zen master. Well, this kind of thing is not...

[41:55]

You can't learn it. You just can't talk about it or do something like that. You have to literally live with your teacher. You have to walk around with him, be places, and see what he does. And his way of teaching will be extremely subtle. I mean, it seems subtle, at least when you talk about it. It's very obvious when you're involved in it. I mean, he may, for instance, avoid your glance for a year. When you're with him, he just may not look at you for a year. And he may, I mean, you may all the time, you may begin to feel really angry at him. And you have all kinds of emotions. You have every emotion as possible. He may hit you. You may hit him, if you want. Generally, you don't. He's smaller than me. I sort of hit him, but he works harder and longer energy than I have. He's in his 60s. But anything is possible, and all emotions are experienced in relation to him. And I mean, at one point, I came to the conclusion that even if he's a fraud, I'm stuck with him as my teacher. And it's that kind of commitment which is needed to make the relationship work. And so that he, then he may smile at me when I'm not expecting it, you know.

[42:57]

Or he may, I don't know, he may wait for a year or two to criticize someone at a time when he can praise them at the same time. The time when he can bring something home. He just watches his students all the time, and then waits for the right moment to help them. And in that kind of relationship, you just are there. You watch how he walks, how he does things, etc. And the, I mean, I, a lot of students come to me for advice, and I talk with them, and seem to be able to help them, you know, to some extent. But I can't do what my teacher does. I mean, people come to him, I've seen people come to him extremely upset with complicated problems, and they'll talk about this, and he's hardly met them. And he'll look out the window and make some irrelevant remark, and it'll all just wash away from him. And how he does it, he says, I don't know, it's so occult to me. I watch, and I say, what's going on there? And I can't figure it out. But if I ever expect to teach Zen, really, I have to be with him to try to intuit what's going on. I think our time is about

[44:01]

up, and let me just say that it seems to be 7 to 12, is that we have the Zen Center in San Francisco, we also have this place down the mountains, which we're in the process of buying, which has worked out very well, I guess partly because America really wants something like this. We have a place in the mountains. It's only 10 miles from the Big Sur coast, but you can't get there from that direction. You go up Carmel Valley about 13 or 14 miles past Carmel Valley, and you turn up into the Los Padres National Forest, over a 5,000 foot pass, and a 20 mile dirt road that wanders up and down into it. We have 160 acres, and we have Monterey County, the oldest resort. It was built back in the carriage trade days when horses brought people in, hasn't been used much in recent years. And it's got hot springs, and it's a very beautiful spot. We have 40 students there now living all year round. We had about 70 students there this summer practicing meditation all the time. And the Zen Master's down there now more than San Francisco. And we have a couple other creeds. I have a 60...

[45:03]

I've been working on an 80 page issue of our publication called The Wind Bell. Usually the issues are about 15 or 20 pages, which describes everything that... as much as we can. What's going on down there this summer. How the whole thing is developing, and why we practice meditation, etc. And I have some of the sheets now. I've been working at the printers with it. And pictures and things about the meditation. And if you'd like to get a copy of it, somebody will put a piece of paper over there, and you put your name and address. As soon as it comes out, it'll be out in about a week, I'll mail you a copy and give you some information about what we're doing. What shall I do? Just a few questions. I'd like to thank you. Okay. Thank you very much.

[46:02]

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