Undefiled, you know, bring forth the teachings. Did you read that again? Yes, I did. So, after saying, does it rest on practice and realization, and Nan Rui says, it is not that there is no practice and no realization, it is just that they cannot be defiled. Then Huì Nǎng said, this non-defilement has been guarded by all Buddhas. You are like this, and I am like this. Is he saying that if he speaks about them, it will defile them, or is he saying that practice and realization are in a realm beyond defilement, or you can't defile them because they are not in the same realm as speaking and feeling? I think the latter,

[01:12]

that practice and realization are naturally undefiled, right? Going forward in practice is a matter of everydayness. They are naturally undefiled. That is their way. And he did speak, he did say something, he did express something which you can't hold on to. So, yeah. So this practice, if you want such a thing, get to work on such a thing immediately. So there is this practice of turning the light back. And I have one more story that is part of this. This is all, these are all, it's weaving the ancient brocade, incorporating the forms of spring,

[02:13]

because Hui Nung's student, Nan Wei, had a student named Baso or Matsu. His student was Bo Chang, who I talked about last time, who did supposedly those Zen monastic rules. And his student was Kui Shan, and his student was Yang Shan. And I'm going to tell a story about Yang Shan. So there is this direct line from Hui Nung, and this undefiled practice, and the thus come one, going through down to Yang Shan, who asks his disciple, in case 32 in the Book of Serenity, where are you from? You know, it's this, you know when you, this is a real struggle for me, all these names and the teachers and their disciples and who they were Dharma uncles with,

[03:17]

and I know in my heart of hearts that if I really knew that, you would see how the teaching flows, you know, the patterns, and oh, that teacher worked with that one, and then they teach this, and these guys all picked it up and did this. You know, it's all there. But it really, it takes a certain kind of study, and I always find myself not remembering the Chinese names, even after all these years. So I admit that it's very hard for me, but this particular one, I just find so great because it's the sixth ancestor, Daikan Enyo, and Nan Wei, and this thing, where are you from, and this wonderful dialogue about I am thus, and you are thus, and this non-defiled has been protected by all the Buddhas, and now you have it, so keep it well, is the same kind of feeling, you know, from our other poem, Hokyo Zamai, to Matsu, who's, there's lots of stories about him,

[04:18]

and the rubbing the tile, you know, that's Matsu, and Bojang, and Kueshan, and down to Yangshan. So this is Case 32, which I'm going to see if I can do it by memory, but I'll keep it open just in case. This is Yangshan, Case 32. Yangshan, it's called Mind and Environment, so this is the same, we're talking about the same things of mind and objects, this is now called Mind and Environment, but it's the same territory that we're looking at. So Yangshan asked a monk, where are you from? The monk said, from Yu Province. Yangshan said, do you think of that place? The monk said, I always think of it. Yangshan said, the thinker is the mind, and the thought of is the environment. Therein are mountains, rivers, and landmass, buildings, towers, trees, chambers, tiles, pebbles, and so forth.

[05:19]

Reverse the thought to think of the thinking mind. Are there so many things there? And the monk said, when I get there, there doesn't seem to be anything at all. Yangshan said, that is right for the stage of faith, but not yet right for the stage of person. Then the monk said, can't you give me some other way of guidance? And Yangshan said, based on your insight, you only get one mystery. Based on your insight, you only get one mystery. You can take your seat and wear the robe. After that, see on your own.

[06:19]

So that's the case. One more time? Yeah, right. So Yangshan asked a monk, where are you from? He didn't say what is it that thus comes, but it's kind of the same question, right? Where are you from? From Yu Province. Do you think of that place? And I love this answer, I always think of it. It's sort of like, where are you from? From Minnesota. Do you think of that place? Yeah, I always think of it. Then he just goes right to the quick. The thinker is the mind, and the thought of is the environment. So basically, in terms of mind and objects not being dual, the thinker is the active part of mind. You can say there's an active part of mind, which is the thinker. The thought of is the passive part of mind. It is mind, too. They say mind and environment. The thinker is the mind, and the thought of is the environment. Therein are the myriad things,

[07:22]

mountains, rivers, and the land mass, buildings, towers, trees, chambers, pebbles. Reverse the thought to think of the thinking mind. So, this is turning the light backward. This is taking the backward step and turning the light inwardly to shine, inwardly. So, reverse the thought to think of the thinking mind. So, when we think, like right now, if you're looking at me, you see visible, and you're hearing my voice, and you're feeling the feel of the seat under your legs, and the light in the room, and all this stuff is environment, is the thinking mind. Reverse the thought to think of the thinking mind.

[08:25]

There's the thinking mind and the thought of. So, all those things I named are part of the thought of, but they're all considered as mind. It's the passive part of mind. The active part of mind is the thinking. The thought of is the passive part of mind, but it's one mind. So, if you... And part of this, and I talked about this on Sunday the other day, the mind has only one... This is in all Buddhist schools they teach this, that there's only one object of the mind per moment. We might think, oh, I'm thinking of a million things at once, but they're infinitesimal, but there's only one object per moment.

[09:29]

And each moment has one object, each moment has one object, and all Buddhists agree on this, that each moment has one object. And the way the mind naturally functions is that it just... As the object... The natural function of mind is that the objects are not grasped. Actually, the natural way that the mind functions is non-grasping, resting, and just receiving whatever's arising, independently co-arising, one after the other after the other. This is the natural way the mind operates. So, when you reverse the thought, to think of the thinking mind, this is not getting involved in externals.

[10:33]

You may see what you call external, but to not get involved in it is just to let the external be the external, let the sound... This is what they say the Buddha said, let the heard be just the heard, let the seen be just the seen, let the feeling be just the feeling. In the feeling, let the seen, heard, smelled be just the smell, without elaborating, without going towards the external, or coughing and sighing in the mind, without fighting and getting involved. And this is the way the mind naturally operates. This is its natural functioning, resting. We say it rests in its natural functioning. One object, each moment.

[11:38]

This is... I was talking about a zygote, the word for to yoke together, to make united or unified is the word yoke, or yoga, same kind of thing, where you unify, and in Greek the word for yoke is zygon, something like that, which is where the word zygote comes from, and a zygote is a fertilized... It's two gametes, two sex cells unified, and that's conception. Don't you think that's great? It's conception. We use the word conception. These are our conceptions. We conceive of all the stuff in the environment, the mountains, rivers, and the landmass, building trees, towers, chambers. This is our conception. This is this unified mind and object.

[12:41]

And there's a kind of natural functioning with those conceptions. But when we begin to flow out into the external or cough and sigh in the internal, then we're not... There's a kind of... We feel distraught and disrupted and disturbed by externals. But the actuality is that they're not external. And the way our conception... See, the actual... Do you see what I mean by this? There's phenomena that's happening that is not conceptual. Conception is a mental phenomena. There are various things that are happening that we do not mentally conceive of, right?

[13:46]

I mean, the way our body is operating internally and firing and lymph going through our body, all these things, we're not mentally conceiving of those things. And all sorts of other stuff, too, are not mentally... There's all sorts of phenomena. But there's an aspect of mind that comes up with phenomena, which is conception. Just let me check that little detail. Yes? It seems that the most fundamental concept is the concept of self. And so every thought or concept that comes... that has as its source the concept of self becomes an object, it's an outflow. Yes. So the backward step, the way I think about it is that the backward step is actually shining the light back on the concept of self. It's shining the light back on...

[14:49]

whatever concept. I mean, that is a fundamental concept, but shining the light back on sound, smell, taste, I mean, all the five skandhas. Well, if you think of the five skandhas as being environment, yes, then yes, then self. You know, when we think of self, it's the five grasping skandhas, but anything you can conceive of or think of or shine back on is part of the five skandhas, the forms, feeling. Yes, yes. I just wanted to look up this thing about the phenomena and the aspect... Sorry, folks. I'll give you a breather. So...

[15:54]

The phenomena... When phenomena arise, they always arise with a conception. There is another way that they arise, which is dependently co-arising. Or I should say there is a way of seeing dependently co-arising, but you have to be very calm and tranquil and peaceful. You have to be peacefully abiding to see dependently co-arising world. And so this turning the light back and shining the light inward on how the mind works is a calming practice, is a shamatha practice. Shamatha means tranquilly abiding, calmly abiding. So there is something sort of innately disturbing about thinking that there are objects outside of us, right?

[16:59]

Because then we have to protect ourselves and make sure that we're going to be okay, which is small mind, Suzuki Roshi's small mind. When you see that all, that what is it that thus comes is none other than or that shining the light back on the thinking mind itself that's thinking of these concepts, you see that there is nothing outside of yourself. And even if you have the concept that such and such is outside of myself, that concept is not outside of yourself. It's all within. And that's a calming... that has to do with calming the mind. And the calming, the calm mind is actually able to see dependently co-arising

[18:02]

and emptiness, which is vipassana, the insight into selflessness of self and objects, which at the beginning I was saying that the mahayana, the goal or the endeavor, I guess the enterprise of the mahayana is prajna, this wisdom and compassion. So with this shamatha practice and this calming of not getting involved in externals and not coughing and sighing and this inner stream of concepts that's coming, if you turn the mind back to look at the mind that thinks... Dogen says to learn to take this backward step and turn the light and shine it inward, what happens is

[19:03]

body and mind of themselves will drop away and your original face will be manifest. Another term for dropping away is relaxed, letting go. Body and mind of themselves will drop away and your original face will be manifest. And it's out of this that... This is the essential art of zazen. I mean, that's what comes up later in fukan zazen. This is the essential art. So, yes. Are there any... I'm sure there must be questions. I have a bunch myself. Yes. I've heard an instruction, I think I've heard it in kind of Tibetan context, practice context, about resting in the luminosity of mind

[20:04]

and, you know, luminosity suggests light, but to me I always think of clarity, you know, like kind of a light clarity or something like that. In other words, non-opaqueness. And so, you know, when things kind of settle, you know, if all the... not the perceptions disappearing, but when all of our messing with them is allowed to settle and the perceptions are just left themselves, then it's sort of like silt, you know, just kind of settling to the bottom and there being kind of like a... I don't know, this is what I think that they're... you know, that they're talking about in the context of this kind of more Tibetan instruction, you know, because I've heard that quite, you know, a number of times, talking about the luminosity of mind

[21:06]

and, you know, so that's the light I think they're talking about that I still don't quite... Yes. ...that part of it, but, you know, that lightness or clarity is kind of what I think is being referred to in some way. At least that's kind of what my mind does with it. Yes. Well, for me, I think what you say I agree with and that image of the silt or the orange juice, I think Thich Nhat Hanh has... Orange juice? ...the pulp or, you know, the muddy waters and then the clear water on top is a useful image for calming. This thing about playing the light, it's... I think the reason this is so difficult to talk about is because what we do naturally, like, as I'm looking out at you and you're looking at me, you know,

[22:07]

I swear I see you out there, you know? It's like, don't tell me I don't, because I do, you know, that kind of... So taking that very... Like, that's how I operate, okay? Taking that... There's a kind of... The light of actually seeing... The ability to do that, actually, to see you out there is a kind of light, I think. And taking that energy almost and turning it back, I mean, it's almost like when it says, if you want to practice this, you know, get going, start working on this immediately, meaning right now, if we could all turn back to our mind that's thinking about my voice or thinking about this group in front of me, thinking about that mind that thinks. And what happens is a kind of...

[23:13]

A kind of evaporation, almost, of the leakage, the kind of pulling out and thinking, oh, this and that and this and that. If to turn back to the mind that's thinking about you all, it's... My experience of it is that it... It... It's over. I don't know if I'm describing this quite right, but... The kind of stream, the kind of endless stream gets... It's like each zygote, you know, it's like that zygote and the next, and the next, there's not a... This involvement, I guess, this involvement. So... And this totally blocked and resolute stillness is also this mind like a wall.

[24:16]

So when you turn the light and think of the mind that thinks, it's almost like you hear that and it's like, OK, I heard that, I heard that already, but what are you talking about? It's a practice, it's almost like to say it in terms of defilement. It's like, can you put this into practice? And I think... Try it. You know? Because these practices that we do in Zazen, I mean, often we have breath, let's say we have breath as our focus. You can think of the mind that's thinking of breath. The breath that we're watching or following is a conception. Now you might think, well, no, no, no, it's actually, breath is coming in and out and it's not conceptual. But during Zazen, our arms and legs and neck and head and breath and the sounds, this is all conception. This is how they get delivered.

[25:19]

This is the way we are as human beings. And it's not that there's only mental representation or concept, but the phenomenon itself of breath, the mental representation of that phenomena is an aspect of the phenomena and arises with the phenomena. So when you're practicing, let's say, following your breath, to think of the mind that's following the breath rather than focusing on the breath as an external. Think of the mind that's... that has consciousness. That's the concept of breath, which is a little different. Yes? So when you were talking about with the calmed mind being able to have a direct perception of the independently co-arisen phenomena,

[26:22]

is that sort of leaping clear of this conceptual process that takes place? By shining light inward into seeing, are you seeing how conceptualization takes place? Is that what drops away? So that then you do have a direct perception of phenomena as they are. I think you understand what conceptualization is. I think you see it as dependent co-arising as well. So when you said leaping clear, I thought you were going to say leaping clear of the many and the one, which I think, yes, it's... So conceptualization is a marvelous dependent co-arisen thing. It's just that when we're caught in the external believing in mind and objects as separate, this is the source of suffering. The belief in that is our... So you actually understand the whole thing

[27:23]

as the thus-come-one, the thus-come-one. For some reason I keep thinking of hearing people say that Suzuki Roshi said that he doesn't drive a car because it's too dualistic. That what this area that we're speaking of... seems like it is really close to, for instance, the suffering that's going on right now in Mozambique. If I say, well, I don't want to get involved in thinking that that's far away and different, separate from myself, although I don't think the teaching is that we don't take compassionate action. It is an area where just sort of like don't bother reading the newspaper or... You know, that the reputation of quietism or non-action

[28:28]

could be a misunderstanding of this, speaking about non-involvement. I don't think this is the teaching. Yeah. Well, I think manipulating is a good word. But I think, right, we want to be involved in the world truly, thoroughly, accurately, you know. We're responding to suffering. Yes, and I think the reason this is the essential art of Zazen is because I think that to realize this is the actual way to help others, you know. I think in the guise of helping others we're often doing all sorts of things to buoy ourselves up, protect ourselves, get our kicks, you know, and it's all... So I think we can fool ourselves, but the thorough understanding of mind and objects,

[29:32]

mind and environment, is the real way to help people without any kidding yourself. I mean, without ancient twisted karma, you know, getting in there. Yes. Well, I was thinking about meddling in things, and then when you said that, the thorough understanding of mind and objects, and I already lost it, but so you have a thorough understanding of maybe how something would be best a certain way, and you really feel like it would be better this way, but you can truly see that it's not going to go that way. So is it really better that way, if it's not going that way, and where do you meddle, where do you not meddle, and what is... You know, it's really hard to tell when you are meddling, when you're not meddling, and the balance in between, you know.

[30:33]

Well, to think that something is the best way is a concept of this is best, right? And if it's going another way... I mean, what are the signposts, what is it that's meddling, you know? I mean, sometimes you can tell because your posture... This is also an instruction about leaning, you know, neither lean to the left or the right, nor forward or backward. So you can sometimes catch yourself leaning in, trying to make it go the way you want it to go, rather than studying what is going on, what is actually going on. Yeah, I understand. And to actually say, and to hold that carefully, you know, I think this is best, and it's going this way, and to honor that, I think this is best, and feel the pain of it not going the way you want.

[31:39]

And, you know, it's kind of an ongoing study, and out of that, staying close, you know, staying really close to that situation, something arises that where you say, Oh, you know, this is the next thing to do. Yeah? Thank you. You're welcome. Yes? I'm confused about the light. What is the light that shines inwards? Yeah. Well, I've been confused about it too, you know. It's like, I remember asking someone, and they described it as actual light, you know, and I thought, Oh, wait a minute, do you mean actual light? Which is a concept. Which is a concept. For me, the way I'm using it, or right now, anyway,

[32:43]

in my practice, is like the consciousness, consciousness as light, or the ability to look, the faculty I have to look back, I'm saying that as light. I think the image of turn the light back and shine it inwardly is a great image, you know. And, of course, we have this word enlightenment, right? So it must be all connected somehow. And people can tell you where, you know, they actually, there was a great, there was a bright light, you know. So I think light is, and in other religious traditions too, there's light. So I don't know exactly what to say, you know, but I feel like... It's like some kind of consciousness. That's how I'm, right now, working on it.

[33:46]

So that's, and that, and consciousness is what lets you see things. So, I mean, would it be too crude to say that it could mean like, if we didn't have consciousness, there'd be darkness. And, you know, we wouldn't see any of this that's in the room. But because of that, it's like a light which shines on everything. So almost like, you know, a light coming out of our heads that shines on everything so that we can see everything. Would that be too? Would that not be? I think it's a useful story, actually, you know. I'm not exactly sure it's... Because consciousness... Yeah, I think it's good. I think it's good. Because the way I understood that you were saying it was that we do, that we actively pursue the phenomena that are out there. We don't let them come to us. We shine our light on them. We go to them. Yes, yes, yes. And so I thought that meant that our consciousness,

[34:49]

our light, goes there. Like, there's, you know, light, I don't know, literal light going, say, from my brain to the things, going out to them, rather than letting them come to me. Which is the other Dogen thing we read, you know, about the myriad things come forth and realize the self rather than us going out to them. It's the same teaching. You know, in the Gensho Koan, I think we read that once a week at least, the 10,000 things come forward and realize the self rather than us going out and realizing the 10,000 things. It's the same thing as turning the light back. I feel like it's, because it's a practice and a meditation instruction, you actually have to give it the old... Monastery trial. Monastery trial feel. And because it's a non-conceptual... it's turning to look at our concepts.

[35:55]

So it's... And we don't offer this particular thing, like for Zazen instruction, you know, ooh, it's 9 o'clock. Because I think it's subtle, and to have been sitting for a while, to be calm enough to even entertain what it might be to turn the light back and shine it in, and to think of the mind that thinks. And the mind that thinks... Yes, Liz? How does the body enter into all of this? Well, the body is conceptual, you know. I mean, it's what we think of as body, and all this comes to us through a mental representation, actually. So we have this concept of, you know, my ears in line with shoulders and nose in line with navel and the whole thing. This is a mental concept. So when we think of neck, think of a mind that thinks of neck, you know, or hands.

[36:58]

This is a hard one about our... We talked about this a little bit last week, that the body is concept as well. It's not that everything is mental, it's just that the way it's delivered to us is as mental representation. There are... There's another koan where it says, that which is before us... You're supposed to... That which is before you... There are no things before the mind. The meaning is before the mind. It's beyond the reach of eyes and ears. Everything that comes through the eyes and ears all becomes eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness. It comes as a mental representation. The nose... When it gets to deliver to us, it's not that there is no physical, but the way it's delivered to us

[38:03]

is as mental representation or consciousness. It's the interpretation of it, right? It's the interpretation of it, is what you're talking about. Yeah, whatever is happening, we interpret it through our mental... Yeah. If we're going to perceive of it at all. There's other things that are happening that are outside of our perception, are un-inconceivable, non-conceptual. We should... But calming practice is felt physically also. Yes. We can go into that next week, some more about the body. In fact, we will, because we're going to get into spread out a thick mat, put your foot here and there and stuff. So I'm glad we could spend the whole time on this. This is endless. Endless meaning I feel like... I don't feel... What's the word? We have not exhausted this by any means.

[39:06]

And I certainly... I feel very engaged in this practice right now, myself. That's my effort anyway, to be engaged in this. I thought we were going to get all the way up to the finger of the banner. Oh, finger of the banner, the needle of the mallet. That was my conception. May He pay our attention.

[39:43]

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