I bow in respect to the Buddha, the Tathagata, and the Sangha. Good evening everyone. It gives me a good deal of pleasure to be back at Green Gulch, where I have visited often enough over the years to feel as though I were coming home. I have been speaking at Zen Center on the precepts, beginning with an introduction called The Nature of the Precepts,

[01:07]

and continuing night by night through the first four. So tonight I am scheduled to speak on the fifth grade precept, not taking drink or drugs, not dealing with drink or drugs. Translation not completely set. But since I think many of you have not been able to attend all of these talks at the city center, and maybe many of you, none of them, it seemed to me that it would be best if I spoke extemporaneously about The Nature of the Precepts, and then summarize my thoughts on the fifth grade precept,

[02:15]

and then open the meeting for questions and answers. So please bear with me. I will probably skip around somewhat as I speak, reading from time to time from my manuscript. Also, please understand that I am coming to you from somewhere, somewhat outside your lineage. So occasionally you will need to listen with your ecumenical ear, because I will not be speaking from a strictly Soto,

[03:17]

or conventional Soto, point of view. My particular lineage is the Harada-Yasutani line of Soto Zen Buddhism, the Sambho-Kyodan sect, which is influenced somewhat by Rinzai Zen. In the Harada-Yasutani line, the sixteen Bodhisattva precepts are taken up at the end of koan study, and dealt with as koans. And like all koans, these are expressions of the way of the Bodhisattva

[04:22]

in his or her work in the world, freed from personal suffering. The origin of the precepts, of all precepts, is the Vinaya, one of the three main sections of classical Buddhist literature. The Bodhisattva precepts emerged with Mahayana Buddhism, and were articulated in the form we can recognize now, first in the Brahma-Net Sutra, which was attributed to Indian times,

[05:34]

but actually was probably composed in China some time after Kumarajiva, who flourished in the early 5th century. And the Brahma-Net Sutra takes its name from the Net of Indra, the magnificent model of the universe, a net, a multidimensional net, with each knot or each point of the net a jewel that perfectly reflects all other jewels. We are, all of us, reflecting each other,

[06:48]

interpenetrating each other, containing each other. And this is true not only for our Buddha Sangha, not only true for all human beings, but for all beings, including the so-called inanimate. This is one basis for the sixteen Bodhisattva precepts. The other basis is found in the Prajnaparamita literature, and you will recall at the beginning of the Heart Sutra Avalokiteshvara is doing deep Prajnaparamita and clearly sees the emptiness of all five skandhas and thus transforming suffering and distress.

[07:55]

A different approach to the precepts. The five skandhas, as you know, are the form or the forms of the world and our perception of them, including our own forms. And Avalokiteshvara is the Bodhisattva of Mercy and Compassion, and his or her name is translated in two ways in Chinese and in Sino-Japanese, in the latter, Kanjizai is one translation. A rather difficult name to translate into English,

[09:04]

something like the one who sees the essential self at rest. When you are completely aware that the forms of the world and your own perceptions of them are transparent, then you are at ease with yourself. And the other name used for Avalokiteshvara is Kanzeon. Kanzeon, the one who hears the sounds of the world. When you are completely at ease and at rest, then you are open to others.

[10:07]

To bring this all home, I want to read you a poem that is probably familiar to many of you, Blake's London. I wander through each chartered street near where the chartered Thames does flow and mark in every face I meet marks of weakness, marks of woe. In every cry of every man, in every infant's cry of fear, in every voice, in every band, the mind-forged manacles I hear. How the chimney sweepers cry, every blackening church appalls,

[11:14]

and the hapless soldiers sigh runs in blood down palace walls. But most through midnight streets I hear how the youthful harlot's curse blasts the newborn infant's tear and blights with plagues the marriage hearse. My comment on this poem is with each sigh of each hapless soldier a new flow of blood runs down the walls of the White House and the equally hapless whore poisons the bride and blinds her infant. Not only is no man an island, each man, woman, animal, stone, cloud, tree

[12:15]

is the universe itself. This is the basis of the sixteen Bodhisattva precepts. Now, to explain why sixteen rather than ten. The first three are the three refuges, taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. The second three are the three pure precepts to avoid all evil, to practice all good, to save all beings. And then come the ten, which you are familiar with. Each is the basis for the next. In taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha

[13:19]

I take Buddhism as my role in the world. I acknowledge the Buddha as my teacher. Someone once asked me in connection with Hakuin Zenji's statement that all beings by nature are Buddha. No, they asked me something else. What was it now? At any rate, I have forgotten the question, but my response was that all beings by nature are Buddha. Hakuin Zenji did not say all beings by nature are Mara.

[14:22]

What we are doing in accepting the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha as our home essentially is accepting the good. If we can agree that by good we mean clear, not confused, not ignorant. Mara I view as one who is sort of ultimately ignorant. We must be careful not to confuse our old Judeo-Christian understanding or Zoroastrian understanding of black and white,

[15:29]

good and evil as being separate absolutes. Dogen Zenji took commentaries of the Brahmananda Sutra and the sutra itself and wrote or at least gave the talks which were then later collected as the Kyoju Kaimon. Which is the transmitting the precepts of our school. Something like that would be the translation. So in the course of Koan study of the precepts, Bodhidharma's comment on each of the precepts is taken up in the Doksan room.

[16:31]

And also a book called the Isshin Kaimon which is attributed to Bodhidharma, probably was not written by Bodhidharma, probably comes out of the earliest ancestors of the Tendai school. This also is studied. However, the Isshin Kaimon does not offer comments on the three refuges or the three pure precepts, only on the ten great precepts. And in the Rinzai school, only the Isshin Kaimon is studied for Koan purposes, not the Kyoju Kaimon. Okay, that's enough technical information and maybe enough introduction to the precepts. Now I want to go on briefly to the fifth great precept.

[17:32]

Let me read you what my title is. I forgot the title. Not giving or taking drugs. I moved through several options and I couldn't remember which one was the last one I used. I used the word drugs there as a very general term to include alcohol and various other ways that we have of following a delusive way. You know, when Shakyamuni Buddha looked up and saw the morning star, he cried out, Wonderful, wonderful! Now I see that all beings are the Tathagata. Only their delusions and attachments keep them from testifying to that fact.

[18:35]

Well, we may say, using that model, all beings of the universe are unclouded from the beginning, but the haze created by their use of drink and drugs keep them from acknowledging it. And of course, there are many, many kinds of drugs. Silly conversation is a drug. TV is very much a drug. And probably you can think of others. The person who comes intoxicated habitually is poisoning the body. And the body is the dojo, the dojo of the Buddha. So you are setting up karma that needs to be undone at some time.

[19:40]

If you are to become clear. Not selling drink or drugs is likewise a matter of personal practice, but we cannot be holier than thou. Let me read what I have to say about that. Our society is structured on the three poisons of greed, hatred and ignorance. Probably selling drink or drugs is no worse than selling cars, which destroy many lives, make highways necessary, create the oil mania, and may even justify nuclear war. Pushing heroin spiked with rat poison on a street corner is hardly right livelihood, but it is paradigmatic of corporations dumping carcinogenic insecticides

[20:41]

on Latin American peasants. So we're all enmeshed in this acquisitive system. We cannot afford to be holier than thou. And as a matter of fact, you know, looking at our own Western heritage, in Psalm 104, David gives thanks to the Lord for his gift of wine that maketh glad the heart of man. And the place of wine as the blood of the Redeemer in Christian ceremony gives it a central role in the Christian faith. One must also weigh the medicinal qualities of alcohol and marijuana and their social value.

[21:43]

If liquor and marijuana impair the judgment, they also tend to break down inhibitions, and this helps people to overcome their isolation from each other. So there's a certain amount of ambiguity in connection with this precept as there is with all of them. Bodhidharma said, self-nature is subtle and mysterious. In the realm of the intrinsically pure dharma, not giving rise to delusions is called the precept of not giving or taking drugs. Hewing as always to the unconditioned absolute, a bodhidharma shines light on our path. It isn't only drink or drugs

[22:47]

or tobacco or coffee or TV or whatever that clouds our minds and makes us unable to testify to the Buddha's own experience. What is happening in your mind? Do you provide your own barbiturates? We all of us do, and thus we all of us violate this precept. Dogen Zenji said, Drugs are not brought in yet. There you are on your cushions. Drugs are not brought in yet. Don't let them invade. That is the great light. Which reminds me of an old story

[23:53]

about Joshu. Joshu was sweeping the courtyard and a monk asked, How can a speck of dust come into this holy ground? Joshu said, Here comes another. But don't misunderstand, don't suppose that a deep, quiet mind is necessarily an enlightened mind. It might be quite dark. Unmon said to his assembly, Each of you has your own light. If you want to see it, you cannot. The darkness is dark, dark. Now, what is your light?

[24:55]

Answering for his listeners, he said, The storeroom, the gate. You see, Light is the ten thousand things advancing and confirming the Self, in Dogen Zenji's words. The thrush. We have a Chinese thrush in Hawaii. I am very fond of that bird. But the robin is also a thrush. The robin. The gate. A sip of wine. How else may we take our pleasure here? Things of the world are not drugs in themselves. By our use of them, we make them that way. Well, lots more to say on this subject and on the subject of precepts in general,

[25:58]

but I think I've spoken enough. And so, let us have our four vows and then a brief moment of stretching. People who need to go home may go home. And then we can have question and answer. Okay? Thank you. Nguyen Hoang Huey Nguyen Hoang Huey Nguyen Hoang Huey

[27:01]

Hoang Huey Sravanam Aum Sravanam Aum Buddha's the Lord, Buddha's the Lord His faith in me is unwavering His attention and feelings are never endless I am proud of Lord Buddha's faith in me His feelings are never weary, his heart is never exhausted I bow to him and to them Buddha's are around us

[28:10]

I bow to him and to them Buddha's way is unquestionable I bow to him Who would like to lead off? Yes? It seems to me that maybe at some point the daily life of knowledge will become like a TV monitor and therefore maybe like drugs I've seen that in my own self come up and I've seen that in years past as well too

[29:12]

Yes, if you let it Practice is a matter of returning from the TV mind to breath counting, shikantaza, move or whatever your specific practice is and the practice actually of most people consists of bringing themselves back from that distraction whatever it is Just sitting with thoughts or just sitting with a particular mental project like solving your financial problems or rearranging the furniture in your apartment or trying to do personal therapy while you're sitting there something like that this can be extraordinarily distracting

[30:15]

or just letting thoughts come and go is a way of kind of cultivating a distraction to focus on your practice and when a thought comes, you see, you can acknowledge it you know, that's you yourself appearing give it a wave and return to your practice this is really what zazen is about coming back to your practice settling into your breath counting settling into shikantaza settling into move or whatever it is that you're working on Okay? Yes, Rene Would you agree that

[31:17]

I drive like a merry-go-round and some of the external ones like us have played an important role in bringing many people in the last 20 years to Buddhism Indeed, I do agree and it's definitely true for me and I look back to some of the experiences with great radhakiris and the feeling that they initially made me understand what some of these Zen masters were talking about Yes So couldn't there be a more tolerant and grateful view of these drugs? Yes, indeed and so I think probably that point should be made about drugs opening the door to religious possibilities for many, many people I'll make a note of that

[32:23]

Generally, I think perhaps tonight in skipping through the Teisho I gave a rather intolerant view but generally I think in this chapter I tried to show how greeting an old friend and serving wine is a very, very pleasant way to communicate and to revive an old friendship, for example Certainly, we should have a tolerant view with regard to all of these precepts However, you know

[33:26]

at some point we must draw the line and each person draws his or her own line Now, in Japan they have no word for alcoholic They're very tolerant on the subject of alcoholism and the man or woman that we would call alcoholic is spoken of in this way Oh, he likes sake very much For us, that is probably too tolerant We would want to help such a person, I think and it's very helpful to be able to diagnose what's wrong

[34:27]

I've got a whole corner full of notes here I've made on the basis of questions Yes In your chapter in the Japanese monastery you talk about stopping at the spirit of the cross and draw the line and I wonder how if such patients are allowed to be diagnosed and how you handle that whether it's at parties or celebrations or gatherings or meetings or whatever you want to share When we have a farewell party or something like that we will commonly toast the person that we're saying goodbye to with a bottle of wine and everybody takes a little We had a poetry reading

[35:41]

at Kokoan a while back and served sake with the poetry reading But it's rather an occasional thing When we have parties away from the dojo in someone's house and it's mostly sangha members that are attending then certainly beer is available Not everybody drinks it but there is a certain amount of beer drinking Not that much There used to be a certain amount of smoking at those parties but I don't hear about that so much anymore I think it sort of died down of itself And in Japan, you know, it depends on the monastery At Ryutaku-ji

[36:44]

where I trained and Dan can check me on this there was a party quite a party once a year at the end of the year toward the end of the year And occasionally when we went out on takuhatsu you know, to accept money and food from the townspeople and we would be served lunch there might be a bottle of beer in front of the place each place And I remember how wonderful a teacher Genpo Roshi was for me when I first met him It was in the dead of winter He was very old at this time about middle eighties And he was sitting there all bundled up eating toasted mochi and sipping sake warming his old bones

[37:47]

And he was a very good teacher for a young, rather ascetic Zen student I want to say something more about about the nature of the precepts which I didn't touch on and that is that they are examined from three points of view which are really one point of view The first is the literal Don't drink The second is the compassionate or Mahayana view of, you know Let us give life Let us encourage life And if this involves toasting a friend

[38:51]

who has just come or is about to go that somehow enlivens the Sangha And the third is that there is no cloud at all from the beginning This is the Buddha nature view These three views are best synthesized or synthesized in the in what we might call the true bodhisattva behavior The second point I want to make is about the misuse of the Buddha nature view Let me read a prime example from that taken from D.T. Suzuki's Zen and Japanese Culture where Takuan Zenji

[39:53]

advises a samurai that there is no such thing as killing The uplifted sword has no will of its own It is all of emptiness It is like a flash of lightning The man who is about to be struck down is also of emptiness as is the one who wields the sword Do not get your mind stopped with the sword you raise Forget about what you are doing and strike the enemy Do not keep your mind on the persons before you They are all of emptiness But beware of your mind being caught in emptiness And my comment is the devil can quote scripture and Mara can quote the Abhidhamma

[40:54]

The fallacy of the way of the samurai is similar to the fallacy of the code of the crusader Both distort a universal view to partisan warfare and universal views can be distorted in many ways The Catholic charity of the Holy See did not include people it called pagans The vow of Takuan Zenji to save all beings did not encompass the one who he called the enemy Certain teachings of Zen and certain elements of its practice can be abstracted and used for secular purposes Some of them benign such as achievement in sports Some nefarious such as murder for hire The Buddha Dharma with its integration of wisdom and compassion must be taught in its fullness otherwise its parts can be poisoned

[42:00]

when they are misused You touched on the individual abuse and distractions and what makes it abhorrent I wanted to hear more of what you had to say about that In my experience it feels to me that the the attitude that this is a distraction this is not practice is abhorrent of what makes it abhorrent and that the use of what we consider to be distraction in our practice is not a distraction Well, the problem with that is that no matter how pure my attitude is I can't do Zazen if I've drunk a bottle of beer I'm fuzzy

[43:01]

I'm fuzzy So it's not just my attitude it's what happens to my body it's the fact that I have that I am being used by this beer you see, rather than using it at an appropriate time I'm wondering about asking when you are drinking a bottle of beer what what way can our practice meet drinking a bottle of beer? Well, of course if your practice at that time is to cool off after you've worked all day long in the hot sun at the farm then that that is a very

[44:03]

good practice, I suppose if you are more or less used to doing that but it seems to me that if you are going on from there to the dojo that that your action has not been so appropriate that you will not be able to do the kind of Zazen that you could do without having drunk it no matter how hot and how tired you are Does that respond to your question? I understand what you're saying I think that I'm thinking more I believe that it's not uncommon for people to get encouraged to go to the gospel or any activity and I know one time I read a long time ago

[45:06]

a non-bosnian book he's reading now actually a monk, he's a monk in Rwanda and it's really amazing it also seems that there's a usefulness in doing for oneself kind of that activity maybe it was a long time ago in practice to have a gatha or a practice of some kind that meets that activity certainly not I'm not thinking in terms of what it is in any of it but more that if I'm at the party not to get in my practice yeah, yeah I can go along with that I can go along with that I feel comfortable accepting although for physical reasons at my age I've been told I shouldn't be shouldn't be drinking alcohol

[46:07]

quite apart from that I can imagine myself younger and enjoying my friends and taking a beer with them at a party sure and if you want to call that practice it's okay it's the practice of of communication and love with one's friends yes I'm interested in these issues that you mentioned about drawing the line yeah I sense an area of great difficulty for all of us in what might seem to

[47:11]

any one individual particularly a strong one that whatever I do is good in nature and that it has no ill consequences on my being a person may justify or may feel completely comfortable in that realm of good in nature that my body is okay in my activities I feel clear about what I'm doing but there's another side of it that I feel that there may be repercussions for others that may have great great consequences yes yes and I think there there is a tendency of for some some people and even some Buddhist teachers to to fall into the same trap that that that Takuan Zenji did here with regard to killing that

[48:13]

I am aware of what I'm doing and there is nothing which is not the Buddha Dharma really and so I can I can for example drink freely I've heard it said about a Buddhist teacher not a Zen Buddhist teacher but a certain Buddhist teacher that he is so enlightened that he is he lives a life of non-attachment even to the precepts see this I've heard this seriously said and I think this is bushwa you know this is rather dangerous because it can justify the most criminal kind of behavior really that that sort of spirit can be used that way the world

[49:17]

of of the Neta Vindra is the world of karma of affinity and we are all of us teachers and so inevitably our actions will basically be the actions of others fundamentally not separate so we are very responsible really and this is what the right action and right livelihood and all those other points on the on the Eightfold Path are about I guess my question has to do with the danger that I feel of this of perhaps the delusion of good energy yes if I feel so much that everything is good energy then I can do whatever I want

[50:18]

yes yes and it is for this reason that or at least partly for this reason that Zen teachers generally avoid talking about the precepts and leave it entirely to the end of formal practice in Soto and Rinzai both discussion of the precepts comes at the end of formal practice because there is a concern that people will oversimplify the the lessons of Bodhidharma and Dogen Zenji and presume that since it's all one anything goes you know this is antinomianism antinomianism you know is the doctrine

[51:18]

that grew up with the Anabaptists in in Germany in the 16th century the belief that once you are saved then all that you do will be holy anything you do will be holy corruption entered in very soon and they they Anabaptists and the ranters and all of those other early millenarian sects had to tone down you know and so their their modern successors like the Quakers and Mennonites and so on are are pretty rigorously moral so the Buddha

[52:19]

nature view must be integrated with the with the Bodhisattva view the Bodhisattva view must be integrated with the literal view yes yeah what happens if the United States government wants to put you in prison which holds the money in escrow until such time as Congress passes the law

[53:20]

which Ron Dellums has introduced in each session since 1972 that would provide the taxpayer the option of earmarking taxes for non-military purposes so that money stays in escrow and just as soon as Congress passes that law then the money will be paid over to the United States Treasury so so far after two years of this we haven't heard a peep from IRS because a letter explaining all this has gone with our with our tax returns and the tax returns show exactly the amount that is due so we're not trying to cheat in any way we were we were sort of inspired by Bishop Hunthausen you know in Seattle who took this stand so

[54:20]

if I have some some or if we have some belief you see that that things are going so badly in a kind of inhuman and destructive way that we don't want any part of it that's a pretty extreme position to take because you consider all the good things you know that are that are done with that tax money so here we've been you know on the line for peace for 30 years or more taking part in demonstrations and writing letters to congress people and all the rest of it and now we just feel

[55:24]

it's time that we take a firm position and say I'm not going to support this this preparation for nuclear holocaust I'm I'm only I'm only by by demonstrating on the one hand and writing letters to congress people and on the other hand feeding them you know with my dollars so that they can continue to do what I don't want them to do I'm in a very ambiguous position so I want to be clear cut and say I'm not going to support war anymore and if I take if we take such a position then ok that's our position all the way all the way personally I doubt

[56:24]

if they throw us in jail but if they do ok ok I'm not going to equivocate it's like draft resistance some draft resistors are resistors up to the point where they are threatened with trial and then they then they sort of move off that position and others go all the way through it's like that it's quite a different point but I'm glad you raised it yeah yes yes yes yes yes

[57:39]

ah of course was it said that the the Christian way is to vow to take the the path of the contemplative life yes ah yes ah ah it seems to me that this is possible as a lay person or as ah an ordained person to

[58:40]

to take such a vow and try to work it through there are many Christian lay people who are living a life of prayer the difference you mean between lay and ordained well that's really the the question isn't it and I feel that there are some people who are naturally monks whether or not they are ordained ah this is a kind of vocation for them and so they are the

[59:40]

the ones who who lead the ceremonies and maintain the the the centers of worship or or meditation ah ah doing a strictly lay Buddhist trip as we are doing is very difficult because there's no core group we have two head residents one at each of our Hawaii centers and two quarter time publications people and that's all the staff that we have and so there's a problem of continuity there's a problem of upkeep there's a problem of leadership at the recent session in in Honolulu

[60:41]

we had three tantos and part of the time the seat was empty because like like Zen Center our our old timers now are in their middle thirties or late thirties and or older and so they have careers and family and so on to look after and in midlife like that one is busiest in early life one is not so busy in later life one is not so busy but in middle life there where where many of our old timers are now they are getting themselves established in their careers and they are working very hard and they are looking after small children so

[61:43]

they can't get away so easily and so we make due with what we have and who we are and it's hard so I can see the the the point in in encouraging at least the people who naturally are of that vocation to be ordained or at least to take up that vocation whether or not they are ordained now that is from a strictly lay point of view I think that that the the Roshi who who comes from the more conventional lines

[62:44]

of ordained priests will have a somewhat deeper point of view probably and could could expound it here that's the best I can do now what I said the other night was that you can see a trend toward laicization or becoming lay in in the history of Buddhism beginning with the the Sangha which was strictly the Buddha's disciples in the beginning to an enlargement in Theravada Buddhism where there were monks and nuns lay women and lay men in the Sangha sort of generally in the Sangha but really it was considered that that the Sangha was the priesthood still to Mahayana Buddhism

[63:44]

which exploded the idea of Sangha to include not only all people not only all Buddhists and all people but all things all creatures and the introduction of the Bodhisattva precepts and the setting to one side of the old Hinayana precepts the 250 precepts for the monks and the 348 for the nuns although that old that old way of looking at Sangha still exists in the Sino-American Buddhist Association for example I read an article in their publication True Dharma Seal entitled The Laity is Not the Sangha well that's a pretty elite group you see if you support the Sangha

[64:45]

the true Sangha you know or not the laity but this elite group then maybe in your next life you'll get to be a member of the Sangha that's the old idea but we're gradually getting away from that idea this is this is and so the the distinction now between monk and lay person as you implied is rather vague not so clear yes that's the way they have developed yes and Buddhism developed in Far Eastern countries in enclaves like that see

[65:46]

in monasteries partly because they were there on sufferance they were not the Buddhists were not the indigenous it was not the indigenous religion they were guest it was a guest religion really in China Korea and Japan and when they got too big for their britches they were put down by the authorities Buddhism was was banned you know for a while in Tang China and given a hard time in period periods in in history of Japan and Korea so sort of this self-protection they kept themselves within the monastery even though their vows to save all beings you know extended throughout the whole universe for practical reasons

[66:47]

kind of stopped there at the at the edge of the monastery so there are all kinds of things that are happening now in Buddhism the development of the Buddhist Peace Fellowship and and all of the other movements of concern in in social justice and world peace grow right out of our of our practice and there's nothing stopping us so we can do it all kinds of things are happening yes soon at Greenos we'll have this machine yes and I think this machine will be different in the past in a couple of ways we're thinking of opening up the schedule a bit so people have options one to choose themselves what they might do in a certain period and also

[67:47]

we probably won't have lectures uh-huh so could you say something about session attitudes I have I attended a session once where the roshi was ill and they couldn't give any teishos until the fifth day of the seven day session and of course couldn't give any doksan it was very difficult for me and partly because I was a very new student at that time certainly a session without teisho and without doksan places the onus

[68:48]

upon the sangha and upon the individual student more than as usual there are three elements of a session in my view one is zazen one is teisho one is doksan and one of my teachers said the session is like a symphony the roshi in his words the night before session begins when everyone has gathered sets the theme for the session and then his teishos in one way or another enlarge and give variety harmony to that

[69:49]

counterpoint really to that theme and the words of the tanto and other senior people in the dojo periodically during zazen also there's a clarinet here and a bassoon there you know following the theme in slightly varied ways and of course this comes forth in doksan and of course it gives the whole session a certain quality a certain spirit so each session is completely unique and different even though essentially session means to touch the mind

[70:50]

you know to receive the mind to convey the mind that setsu in session is a delightfully ambiguous word it means all three of those things to touch to receive and to convey the mind shin is the mind so at that in that dimension you see there is no flavor no quality at all it's entirely pure but we are all of us individuals sitting together in a certain place at a certain time so naturally there is a context for this experience of touching the mind and everything that goes into session provides that

[71:50]

context and when some of that context is missing say your zendo burned down you see you had to sit in the field you see something would be missing and it would put more burden on you to make it a good session so it puts much more responsibility on the individual participant in the sangha and the sangha together to make it a truly meaningful session when there is no tesho and no doksan meaningful I say not don't mistake that for anything but meaning okay? thank you how long do you want to go? it's 9.29 a few more questions? alright

[72:51]

some questions? yes yes yes aha aha right on okay Well, what he said is absolutely correct, you see, absolutely correct.

[74:08]

So you are put in a rather awkward position there of hearing him preach true dharma without really showing it himself, or at least showing that he himself was very vulnerable and couldn't even set the bottle aside while he was giving his taisho. In other words, you are put in a position where you are told to do as I say, not as I do, and I don't think that's fair. You know, in Japan it's said that the tea teacher teaches tea even when going to the

[75:14]

toilet. But I think that the teacher of Buddhism teaches Buddhism at all times, and so it is important to live up to that responsibility. And I hope I'm not being too stiff and strict about this. I was saying last night, you know, that one must always see the dark side of one's motives. Why did I write a book about the precepts, you see? I think René knows, you see. Maybe I'm a little bit too strict and moralistic, you see. So, I've forgotten exactly where my train of thought is. But, oh yes, be that as it may, I can't help feeling, as maybe I'm too strict and

[76:20]

too moral, that it is very important to live up to one's own words. What would you say is the essential relationship between morality and meditation? Ah, that's an interesting question. What is the relationship between morality and meditation? It comes down to honesty. It comes down to integrity. What is happening there, you know, in connection with the first question that was asked this evening, you see? What is happening there on your cushions? Dogen Zenji said, drugs have not yet entered in. Don't let them invade. This is the position of integrity. You know that those thoughts are waiting in the wings.

[77:21]

Give them just a fraction of a moment's opportunity, and zoom! They're right out center stage. So, it is important to exert all one's integrity and to be completely honest at the source of your thoughts. And with this kind of practice of honesty on your cushions, integrity on your cushions, you lead a life of honesty and integrity. This is my belief. Now, we're always bringing ourselves back to move, back to shikantaza. So, in the same way, in our daily life, we are bringing ourselves back to a position of honesty and integrity in human relations, where you can say, I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry. Yes?

[78:31]

One of the things that you've spoken about, Antoine, that I've listened a lot, maybe more recently, is to bring speaking ill of others. Yes. And I wonder if you could say a little bit about particularly being honest in communication and also trying to understand the situation, but at the same time not isolating the ill of others. Yes, it's kind of an ultimate challenge, isn't it? Yes. I think that we can use the tools which are provided to us by these modern developments in communication and sharing,

[79:34]

which help us to avoid generalizations. What happens when your child spills her milk? You see? What do you say? Do you say, you are always spilling your milk? You see? That is really condemning others, you see. But if you say, uh-oh, you know, let's get the sponge, the child might say, I didn't mean to do it, you know. In other words, you might not have gotten your point across there, that it was an accident, you're still a child, you're in process of growing up, you tipped it over again, but that's okay, I'm sure you're going to try to do better next time.

[80:38]

It's all implied in, let's get the sponge, you see. You're recognizing that something went wrong there. You're not overlooking it, you're not denying it in any way, but you're somehow working with the child there to help. To find the right, compassionate way to respond, that will still be an expression of true dharma. That is the challenge we're always faced with. And those two precepts, not to speak ill of others, and not to praise yourself while condemning others, number six and number seven, are very, very difficult ones. But you can find a way.

[81:41]

Ben Franklin has an interesting piece in his autobiography. My list of virtues contained at first but twelve, but a quicker friend, having kindly informed me that I was generally thought proud, that my pride showed itself frequently in conversation, that I was not content with being in the right when discussing any point, but was overbearing and rather insolent, of which he convinced me by mentioning several instances, I determined, endeavoring to cure myself, if I could, of this vice or folly among the rest, and I added humility to my list.

[82:43]

Very interesting, you see? So it is possible to correct others when there is an atmosphere of trust. It is possible to plant a seed of correction in a most compassionate way even when there isn't an atmosphere of trust. And it is certainly the responsibility of us all to endeavor to do this, not to the point of making ourselves obnoxious, you know, but just when it is clear that teaching is necessary here.

[83:32]

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