We are the Bhagavad-gita, the Lord's. Twenty minutes ago you told me it was very funny to sit on top of the couch. This is an improvement. But it's still amusing. It's definitely an improvement. At least it's firm. Dharma is a folder. Yes, right. Let's start with this. These things here. Before I begin, I would like to encourage each of you to please go to Merrill Woods.

[01:08]

This week. When you have an hour. And don't be put off by the tour buses. Just get over there and go for a walk in the woods. There is trillium in the woods. Lots of it. Really lovely, delicate flower which comes and goes before you know it. There is something called fetid adder's tongue. Lots of it. And the salmon and the steelhead trout are doing a late spawn. And so there are a few fish coming up the creek into the gravel beds at Merrill Woods to make their nests with their tails and lay their eggs. It is very beautiful. And it is our sister mountain. I think that there are too many of us who live here who never make it over the hill to Merrill Woods.

[02:13]

So I really encourage you to go for a walk in the woods. If you can. I want to begin with a reference to this last paragraph and in particular one phrase in the last paragraph in Birth and Death by Dogen which we just were studying. I was delighted with this paragraph which tells us how very easy it is to become a Buddha. And then a list of all the things we need to do in order to have that happen. And in particular a combination of not much light and I didn't bring my glasses.

[03:15]

If you just swing it around, you don't have to move it, just swing it, that will help. This paragraph says there is a very easy way to become a Buddha. Not doing any evil. Having no attachment to birth and death. Sympathizing deeply with all beings. Thank you, that's great. Respecting those above, sympathizing with those below. Not feeling aversion or longing for anything. Not thinking or worrying. This is called Buddha. Don't seek it anywhere else. And in particular what I would like us to consider together tonight is this practice of not feeling aversion or longing for anything. To think a little bit about our practice of the middle way between aversion and desire.

[04:25]

And as a kind of encouragement in that direction I'd like to tell you a story that Tomoe Katagiri told me when she and Katagiri Roshi were here a couple of weeks ago. It's apparently a very old Japanese folktale. And it's a story about the old man and a sparrow. There was a sparrow in the midst of a flock of sparrows in the forest near the house of an old man and an old woman. And one day when the old man was in the forest he came upon one of the sparrows who had been injured. So he took the sparrow home to take care of it. And the sparrow lived in the house with the old man and the old woman and slowly began to heal.

[05:30]

And during the day when the old man would be out gathering wood and going on walks and doing all of his things the sparrow was left in the house with his wife. And as the sparrow began to feel stronger the sparrow was given to eating the old woman's starch which apparently in Japan used to be done by boiling rice for a very long time and then skimming the starch off of the boiled rice. And it would be kept in a big pot or a container of some sort. And then the old woman would take her starch from this container when she would be doing the clothes. So the sparrow found the container and began eating the old woman's starch. And she became very angry. She didn't like that at all. And she and the sparrow had repeated encounters

[06:35]

over this eating the starch business. Finally one day when the sparrow was nearly well and flying around the old woman discovered that the sparrow had once again eaten all her starch. Now any of you who have been in a Japanese house know that the woman in the household will often have a very long pair of scissors. Longer than any scissors I've ever seen. The old woman had such a pair of scissors and she took the pair of scissors and she went after the sparrow and she cut out his tongue. She went like that and cut the tongue as revenge for his eating her starch. So the sparrow escaped and went back into the forest and rejoined the flock.

[07:36]

Sometime later when the old man was in the forest the head sparrow found the old man and said I want you to come to our house because we want to thank you for taking care of the sparrow that you found that was injured. So the old man went to the sparrow's house and they served him tea, sparrow tea. And then the head sparrow said we want to give you a present and we have two boxes and you may have one of them. There was one small box and one large box. So the old man when he finished his tea thanked the sparrows and he took the small box and went home. Part of his instructions from the head sparrow was that he should not open the box until he got home.

[08:44]

And he promised that he wouldn't. He took the box and went home. And when he got home his wife was very irritated because she had not been invited to tea. She had not been given a box. This sparrow business had been very troublesome for her. She had to keep making starch, etc. While all this chatter and fussing was going on the old man sat down and quietly opened up the box and discovered that the box was filled with gold. And his wife got very excited. And she was quite insistent that absolutely she was going to go to the sparrow's house and get her gift. And she did sometime shortly after this event go off into the forest and found the sparrow's house and banged on the door and said, I've come for tea and my present. And so the sparrows being hospitable

[09:48]

welcomed her and gave her some tea. And she kept saying, well, where's my present? Where's my present? And again the sparrows came forward with one small box and one large box. And the old woman took the large box. And again she was given the instructions that she should not open the box until she got home. So she ran back to the house and she opened up the box. And what was in the box was a kind of ghost, an umbrella ghost, made of a kind of old-fashioned Japanese-style umbrella, paper umbrella. And it had a head. Tomoe-san said, not really a human head, more like a shaved balloon. And it only had one eye.

[10:48]

And at the end of the handle, it had one, you know what geta looked like, the Japanese claws, had one of those, but with one of the rises missing. So it was a broken geta. And this umbrella ghost also had a very, very long tongue. And the other thing that was in the box was this kind of mysterious cloud shape, which arose up out of the box. And that's all there was. So I think there is some admonition here about being greedy and wanting things, this realm of desire in this story. After Tomoe-san told me this story, for a couple of days afterwards, she kept thinking of more details about the ghost.

[11:51]

She got quite taken with it. And she said, you know, when I was a little girl growing up, my friends and I were always afraid of those big scissors. Because we heard this story when we were little, and we always associated this story and getting your tongue cut with the scissors. And so everybody always had a kind of fear of the big kitchen scissors that all of our mothers had. Since we read that fascicle, and in some ways actually throughout the practice period so far, I have found thinking about this path that we're on as the path between our tendency for aversion or desire very helpful as a way of noting whatever it is that arises.

[12:57]

And to see how in any given period of time I will have a kind of list in one direction or another. And particularly because we've been studying the chapter in the Shantideva text on patience, and as a consequence of that have been talking about anger. And some of us have been watching our anger as it arises and falls away. I have noticed in particular how often a certain kind of irritation and anger seems to arise out of aversion, wanting to turn away from a particular tendency or capacity in myself or in another person. All of those pesky little details

[14:01]

that come up in the course of the day between picking and choosing what happens every time we sit down to eat a meal and we begin to think about whether we like it or we don't like it, or we want to eat this but not that, or all of that. And how I'm struck by how helpful it is to keep a kind of sighting on and not feeding or encouraging that tendency to aversion or to desire. So what I would like us to do tonight is to talk a little bit about how we can encourage ourselves and encourage each other in being on this path, this middle way that we are all on together, to become more awake to these tendencies

[15:01]

and to encourage each other in our efforts to be clear about what we're doing. I'd also like to read a section from this collection called The Precious Lessons from the Zen Forests, translated by Thomas Cleary. The Precious Lessons from the Zen Forests This is number 31. Wuzhu said, To benefit beings and transmit the Way, the task is in finding suitable people. But the difficulty of knowing people is what afflicts sages. Hearing people's words still doesn't guarantee their actions. Looking at their actions, still perhaps their ability might be missed.

[16:02]

Unless you have associated with them before and thoroughly examined from the basis to the details, searching into their resolve and practice, observing their capacity and ability, and after that see if they can maintain the Way and conceal their function, how can you be able to know people? As for those who sell their names and adorn their appearances, their phoniness is not admitted, even the subtly hidden you see to the depths. This principle of searching, observation, and careful listening is not something that can be done in a day and a night. That is why Nanyue Huarong, after seeing the sixth patriarch, still attended him for fifteen autumns. And when Mazu saw Nanyue, he also followed him for over ten years. Thus we know that the cause of the transmission of the ancient sages

[17:07]

was definitely not something that the shallow could presume to inherit and uphold. When it is like a vessel of water being poured into another vessel, only then can one successfully continue the universal guidance, like a seedling of the house. This principle of searching, observation, and careful listening has clear, evidential proof in experience. How could it admit of clever words and commanding appearance, expedient partisanship and flattering as satisfactory for selection? Searching, observation, and careful listening. I think we have some opportunity

[18:09]

in living and practicing together here. For those of us who are here for some long time, we have a particular kind of opportunity that is a real treasure and that we can share with people who are here for shorter periods of time or who come here to practice but who are continuing lives out in the world. In any event, some variation among us, but in fact some opportunity of truly meeting each other in some way which is perhaps not so usual in ordinary circumstances. And in this opportunity of meeting each other and keeping each other company and helping each other, we can begin to practice more deeply as we can observe and listen to ourselves and to each other,

[19:15]

a kind of deep taking care of ourselves and of each other. Several of us have been talking in various circumstances about what we are doing, each of us, in our practice life. What is the particular issue or area of our lives and practice that is coming up for us? And asking ourselves, is there some way we can tell each other more frequently or more openly what each of us is doing? Are there ways we can listen to each other and know who we are? One of the ways we have is to sit together in the Zen Buddha. But are there also other ways we can encourage a kind of listening

[20:17]

to each other and speaking about the particularity of our experience as we practice together. And the particularity of our working on whatever it is we are working on. For me, this description of a path which is the middle way between aversion and desire or aversion and greed is one way to talk about the practice that we are doing together which is extremely complex and subtle in some ways. Anyway, the question that I would like to bring up for us to, if we can, to talk about a little bit this evening has to do with the issue of how we allow ourselves to be known to each other a little bit. Maybe in this particular setting we can talk a little bit about how we can do that.

[21:24]

And I don't necessarily mean in terms of something we say as much as the detail of how we go through the day with each other. Whatever that may be. Anyway, that's the kind of question which has come up for me and which I hope some of you may have some thoughts about as well. What keeps coming up over and over again for me is asking myself how do we take care of each other? How do we appreciate each other? And how do we trust what each of us is doing even when we don't have so much specific information but more something we can know just by the fact that we're here, that we've gathered together in this place that is devoted to practicing zazen

[22:29]

and to practicing ways of being awake and present with each other and with the work that we're doing. Anyway, I wonder if any of you has anything you might offer or have to say on this point in particular of how we can help each other. This is perhaps a little more specific than what you're referring to but I'm aware of when people get sick here of not a really clear idea of how they're going to be taken care of.

[23:37]

And my experience at Tassajara was one where when someone got sick there was an understanding that the Tenkin would bring them food. And it was, I think, a relief to all of us to know that there was one person who would be aware that that person was in bed and unable to get their own meals or would find out if they wanted meals or not or if they wanted to actually get up and get their own meal. But there was a relationship between the Tenkin and the sick person but also the whole sangha was aware of the Tenkin with the tray and the flower on the tray and the ceremony around it and how well taken care of people would be when they get sick. I thought today, as Judith's been sick for a couple of days, I realized to myself I assumed that someone who maybe was next door to her was doing it

[24:40]

or someone who knew her better than I, but then I didn't really know that and whether to go up and be another person knocking on the door. And it came up to me that maybe here we could have something like that. Do we, don't we have some kind of arrangement like that? Nothing more than that I try my best to follow up on them and if I can't do it then I'll ask someone to go check on them. Interesting, I remember a long time ago when I lived here and my back was really terrible and I spent long periods of time flat on my back in bed and sometimes wondered if someone would find me sort of maltering under the covers. I think your suggestion is a good one

[25:44]

because there are some of us who rush in to take care of all those kinds of situations and would be better off taking care of ourselves than there are others who maybe shy away from such a situation. So if we did have some agreement about who can take care of someone when they're sick it could be a real benefit for everyone. It does seem like it would be nice also to help the ENO take care of everybody. One of the reasons that I have thought about this question of how we help each other actually came up out of some conversations about our practice agreements because one of the reasons we began having these kind of formal arrangements

[26:48]

a piece of paper which records some understanding about who you're working with and what your practices are and all of that really coming out of some interest in and concern with how we actually have some contact with each other and it has arisen out of conversations those of us who are on the practice committee have had but I think that it comes up for all of us and that in some ways we don't always know what's up with each other and is there some opportunity for taking some care that we haven't seen or that we've missed somewhere or another. And it's one thing to have a kind of formal bureaucratic way of taking care of such things but of course what makes the difference is the heart of such an event. Anyway, it seems like maybe asking the person who's the Tenkan to take care of someone who's sick

[27:55]

or to at least see that there's someone who takes care of food and tea and things of that sort would be one way of taking care of it. That would be clear. Maybe it's been taken care of all along and I just didn't ask the old woman. I also wonder though about because we have so many people living here in the community and so many different circumstances and we have people who come here on Sunday who have, for some of you who are here in this room tonight, people who have very strong connection in terms of your own practice life with this place but there's a way in which we sometimes don't have so much of an opportunity

[29:00]

to know what each of us is doing or working with in our lives and how when we do sit down and say something to each other about what we're doing, what's coming up for us, my experience anyway is that over and over again what happens is that we end up encouraging each other and we find out that there are ways in which we can help each other which we might not have imagined. So it's more, that's the kind of, how can we begin to talk to each other in those ways that might open us up to each other a little bit more. I think for those of us who are doing this practice period right now, we had some taste of doing that when we recently had tea and we took a few minutes for each of us to go around the room

[30:03]

and to say something about what we were working with, a way of beginning to do that kind of opening up to each other which can be very helpful. But I also think there's a way in which without formally doing that, cultivating a kind of listening mind makes it possible to hear what we all say to each other all the time. If we are open to what's happening with another person, they will tell us in many ways whether they need to or not. And so I'm also wanting to bring that practice up, that possibility of really listening to each other, to the world around us, to spring popping and a trillion beings in their woods,

[31:06]

to a corner in the dishwashing room that keeps being neglected that we could take care of, which comes from a kind of listening, paying attention, that attitude of openness and receptivity. I just thought of that line that we recite about practicing secretly and looking within, and I wonder what you could say about that. You do say that, it's like a reminder. So I appreciate what you're saying, I'm not saying you're wrong for that, but at the same time, maybe in the habit of practicing secretly, maybe in the habit of listening. Well, it's a question that has come up for me for a long time,

[32:22]

kind of, what does it mean to practice in an invisible way versus a visible one? The fact that there are some of us wearing robes makes us quite visible in a certain way. I always feel very moved when I hear stories about people who wash dishes and somehow make everybody around them feel better. Wonderful stories of Nyogen Senzaki when he first came here from Japan, picking strawberries, he was a field hand, and had some remarkable impact on the people around him, just doing those kinds of jobs. Where whatever arises out of your intention and your practice life

[33:34]

is just there in the world in whatever way it appears, but without some label on it or some advertisement. I really appreciate that way of allowing whatever understanding or insight or cultivation may arise out of the kind of practice life that we have, or can bring up. But it also seems to me that there is a way in which these days, this week at Kringle, one of the things I hear is, Yoo-hoo, anybody out there? Am I here all by myself? A little of that feeling.

[34:37]

And I know that periodically when I've been in a kind of study group, I think, for example, of some of the things that we've done in practicing with the precepts, where a group of 10 or 12 or 15 of us would get together and say, all right, for the next few months we want to work with the precepts. And basically use a kind of sharing group format. And we would meet once a week and say, all right, this week let's work with a precept about the disciple of the Buddha does not harbor ill will. And then we would, the next week, say, well, this is how it went for me. We would go around the room talking about our particular practice with this precept and whatever it was that had arisen for us. That kind of talking to each other about, in particular,

[35:41]

about what we were working on, I found very encouraging. And a way of being taught by the people that I was practicing with. And I think there is a way in which we are each other's teachers. And we can help each other a lot out of our willingness to reveal ourselves in some way. Which is not to say that we're going to sit down at lunch and say, well, do you know what came up for me this morning when I was sitting? I mean, that's not what I'm talking about. But I am talking about an attitude. Of trust, and of sympathy, and of listening. And I know for myself, when I can have some ability to listen

[36:50]

and to be open to whoever is around me, I am taught. I do get some nudging and coaxing in whatever area is up for me in my own exploration and struggle to see clearly what's going on. And I'm not sure that what I'm suggesting is inconsistent with what I think practicing secretly is about. We give each other some confidence by being honestly and clearly who we are

[38:12]

and the way we are in a given situation. I had an interesting experience in the garden today, going out with the pad and trying to keep notes of when all the plants open, especially with the members of the rose family, the apples and the roses, because it helps us understand a little bit about when the fruit, and since they're young plants, it is useful information. And, you know, I noticed a couple of things just in my not-very-scientific process. There were certain plants that I expected that they would be opening, like we have Ashnead's kernel apple growing in three different situations, three different training situations. So I expect that Ashnead's kernel is going to perform the same way in the three different situations,

[39:14]

or else I think, well, no, it should be doing this over here and this over here and this over here. This is a roundabout way of saying that I found just by paying attention and being observant to what the fruit was actually doing, that it wasn't predictable and it was very interesting to see, to be surprised. And I feel like this is a way that we could help each other, too, to be real observant and pay attention to how we're looking and feeling, and just maybe, first of all, be observant to ourselves, and then extend that out a little bit and be observant to each other. The other thing I felt after looking at them a long time was that I wish I were a rose. And I was looking at them and also being willing to exchange places with that plant that I was observing. It was real nice. And then in the end, I tried not to put this big hope that I had on top of it all,

[40:18]

and in the end, that big hope actually came through, which is that most of the apples and roses seem to be opening right going up to the full moon, which is something that I hope would be true because it's what one of our big teachers told us happened. So there it was out there happening, but I'd forgotten about the full moon until I actually looked at the dates when it got back. So I don't know if this has any relevance to what you were bringing up, but for me it did. It was a real nice way of focusing. And I thought, gee, it doesn't have to only be for the plant world. We could do this with each other, too, just be careful and observant, not have an idea about who we are, and be willing to be in each other's shoes a little bit. Well, I think that it's crucial in developing a listening mind to be open to be surprised. And I know for myself, I have a kind of blindness to what's actually going on

[41:26]

if I have too strong a fixation on what I'm expecting. And I think, particularly with each other, it's very easy to get into that. We do a kind of labeling, if not a kind of judging, both of ourselves and of each other. So, yeah, I think what you're bringing up is exactly crucial to this kind of attitude of listening, paying attention, being willing to be surprised by each other. I also think there's a kind of cultivation of sympathy, which is a very clear practice. One of the things that Shantideva talks about in the chapter on patience, and also later in the text, with this practice of exchanging self for other,

[42:26]

putting yourself in another person's shoes. In that text, this particular practice is actually discussed in the context of working with anger, as an antidote to anger, but in all kinds of situations, and I think particularly in the cultivation of sympathy, which is another aspect of what I'm trying to bring up a little bit. That's one of the ways of doing it. And what I observe is that we tend not to be so sympathetic, especially with each other, when we don't have very much information about what's going on with another person. It's much easier then to jump to conclusions and to fill in with whatever.

[43:29]

And we have a kind of... I don't think it's shyness, but some... We have our own kind of shared culture here, and we do have a kind of reluctance about checking in with each other. And I think part of that comes out of an appropriate respect for leaving each other alone, which is extremely important and helpful. But, again, how do we have some balance? I think it starts with opening up oneself. And then sympathy occurs by itself. And it's vice versa. So my experience was, I'm a newcomer, and in the first weeks here I realized here is something like being for oneself

[44:35]

and keeping this silent way. And I understood that and I kept following that. But after a while something changed. And I began to understand that this here is also a social place, a very social place. And we can't avoid it. Even if we would try to. And then I had experience with beginning to open up that others too did that. And we came to a much better understanding of the other one without speaking a lot anymore. And it was much better flowing and more unified.

[45:38]

And I see that longing in everybody. Everybody wants that. Everybody sees that all the limits are artificial. All the borders or the limits of us, how we are, our forms are made up somehow. They are not really necessary. They are just happening for a while. We can really share and don't lose anything. We win when we support each other. And even the secret way is supported by that because we have to practice secretly anyway, by ourselves, inwardly anyway. Any exchange of something. And this is the so-called little thought or relative feeling we have.

[46:44]

It's nothing. It's perfect and complete. But it's very important to just give that little statement. Nothing special is added. It's a long talk. Well, I guess, you know, as I was just listening to what you were saying, I agree with you in some situations, but I know that there are times when I will be around someone and I will feel some irritation. I will have some inclination to avoid a particular person. So in that situation, if I'm interested in cultivating sympathy, what can I do? Or do I just let that tendency, that list towards aversion have a kind of life of its own?

[48:03]

And it seems to me that in our practice, what we are doing is really working with those tendencies towards that which we want to avoid and that which we want to possess. Yes. So I do think that there are opportunities for cultivating a capacity like sympathy, where we, left to our own devices, we might not be cultivating such a quality. Yes, Cheryl. This is a bit of a sticky topic. And I know it's kind of a personal thing, but I do want to tell you something. My own experience of what you're talking about is varied.

[49:11]

One experience that I've had is that if I wanted people to know me, I had to go to them. And that's a strange experience, to feel like if I wanted to have someone know me, the onus was always on me to approach them, practice with them, like say they wanted to be friends, business friendship. This is always one of those things that comes to me. Our... Particularly, I suppose, when someone becomes a practicing, then the question has come up for me on a number of occasions. When I speak with them, am I speaking to my friend, who is my confidant,

[50:13]

and is not going to repeat what I said to a committee of people who don't know me? So who is it that I'm approaching? And then, if this person is my friend, how is it this person ever approaches me to be friends, or never says to me, let's do such and such? What is this relationship? When we did more formal practices, it seemed much clearer. I didn't have expectations that they were going to approach me in the same way that I might be friendly with some of those that I would consider my peers. So, in the sense of revealing, I feel I've had some not such good experiences that way, and some confusion. I'm less inclined to reveal the consequences

[51:17]

on a one-to-one basis in a practice situation, because I've seen what happens with information. On the other hand, the discussion group that you mentioned, I participated in quite a bit, and enjoyed very much. And of course, there was a stated objective that would have said, here, we'll not go beyond here. It's hard to control that kind of coming-of-age group, but I felt quite comfortable about never ever revealing. But I don't always feel that way in a practice situation, because I know it's not kept in confidence. And those people that I consider to be close, deep friends with whom I could share deeply what's most intimate to me, and which I very much would like to do in a practice way, that's a vital part of my life. I don't know.

[52:20]

I wonder what this relationship might say. It's not so clear to me. I think the point that you're bringing up is an important one, because I'm anyway not talking about friendship in a social sense. Excuse me? I'm not talking about friendship in a social sense. I'm talking about some opportunity for some experience of connectedness that comes out of practices that we're doing, a path that we share. And I think part of what you're bringing up has to do with a kind of confusion about what we're doing. For example, if you and I were going to have a discussion

[53:23]

in the form of practice instruction, what would we be doing together? And would we both be clear, would we have the same understanding about what it was we were doing together? And in fact, would we be clear about the issue of confidentiality, for example? It seems to me that kind of thing is extremely important to do. That's part of what it means for us to take care of ourselves and of each other. There are ways of listening to each other that don't necessarily mean telling each other secrets or something that we don't want to be sort of widely topic of conversation. It is possible to be open with each other without breaking confidences or something of that sort. But it does mean being very clear about what we are and what we are not doing together.

[54:24]

And it's one of the issues that comes up for us around are we a sangha, that is a group of people practicing together, or are we a community? Because what it is we want in each of those instances and what is appropriate, I think, are rather different. And there may be quite a degree of overlap, but they aren't really the same thing. In some ways, doing a kind of sharing group that we've done on Sundays with the precepts group or a few years ago when we were doing study groups with mindfulness practices and the precepts as two examples, gave us a chance to talk about some particular practices that we were doing together without necessarily talking about things that we wanted held in confidence

[55:34]

in a way that was problematic. And maybe that's one of the ways we can be a little bit more accessible to each other about what we're doing in our lives as we come together here. Anyway, I think that the issue or the difficulty that you're bringing up is a real one. And it has a lot to do with how clear we are when we meet about what it is we're doing together. And if we're not clear, we have all kinds of expectations of each other which we don't check out, and then we break our hearts. I don't know if that at all addresses the concern you're bringing up, but I think what you said is important to keep in mind.

[56:36]

Yes? Another difficulty that comes up here with close sharing is the large influence of people coming and going. So there's not any really permanent saying that there's a few people who've been here a long time, and a few who have been here a little longer. But it seems to me the majority are people that come and go all the time, sometimes just for a day. I think over probably two-thirds of the people in this room have been here maybe a few months or more. I mean, less than a few months is what I'm trying to say. Maybe less than even a few weeks. Yes, in fact, everybody here doesn't necessarily even look at where our next soul is.

[57:41]

Yes. So sometimes I'll find myself, or maybe a lesser-known attachment, where I'll start to feel really close to a particular person who's been living here, and next thing I know they're leaving, and another person appears, and then you just get to know that person, and then they're leaving too. I think it's sometimes called impermanence, right? Impermanence, yes. So, even in the face of that coming and going, are we willing to have an attitude of openness and listening and observation with each other,

[58:44]

or understanding that this is the only time of the week? I mean, again, I think that if we think about friendship in usual terms, we do think about building some connectedness over some long period of time. But we do have an opportunity to have some encounters with ourselves and with each other, which isn't measured in those kinds of measures. And I think about some of the experiences that I've had sitting with people as they've been dying, in some cases people I haven't known at all. Sitting together and breathing together has left me with a sense of deep connectedness,

[59:57]

that I can't measure, but it's been very important for me in my life. And it doesn't seem to have had anything to do with our being friends or knowing each other in the usual terms that we think of. Anyway, I think it's this willingness to know each other, even if it's just for a very short time, is a real opportunity for us. Yes, Carrie? It just reminds me that I've many times had the experience of going to a retreat or session and there would be a group of strangers there. And I often feel that somehow I need them in an alternate, intimate way,

[61:02]

that I need my friends. That somehow in being together quietly and paying attention, they revealed something in themselves that is not evident in everyone anymore. And something very close. And it's amazing to me, because there would sometimes be people that I'd want to seek out with my friends, but somehow it's this quiet paying attention, this sense of connection. Yes. Well, maybe we can poke around in this particular heap a little bit as we go along. And remember, if you have a choice between a small box and a big box,

[62:07]

think carefully about which one you pick up to take home. Thank you very much.

[62:15]

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