August 11th, 1989, Serial No. 04067

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i'm very happy
to be here with your the same name
and and and i are delighted to be here at green gulch
mon our
unprecedented sabbatical

i'm very grateful to all those with you who made this possible
i know that
you have devoted a lot of
of energy to
preparing for our stay
we are both them is very grateful
so please sit comfortably
i have been
reading a my revise the tux on the longtime are roaming guan
and to saga members at the cook islands and down
during a tuesday evening classes
and people have responded with questions and comments
that have been very helpful to me in making the final polish
so i'm going to impose on here this evening and three to
case twenty three think neither good nor evil
and i asked the that you please sir
freely after its are in the middle
offer your comments and make and your questions
the case reads
the sixth ancestral teacher was pursued by ming the head monk as far as ties young peak
the teacher seeing ming coming laid the robe and ball on iraq and said this rob represents the dharma there should be no fighting over it you may take it back with you
men tried to lift it up but it was as immovable as a mountain
shivering and trembling he said i came for the dharma not for the road i beg you lay brother please open the way for me
a teacher said don't think good don't think evil at this very moment what is the original face of ming the head monk
in that instant ming had a great safari sweat ran from his entire body
in tears he made his bow saying besides these secret words and secret meetings is there anything of further significance
the teacher said what i have just conveyed to you is not secret if you'll reflect on your own face you will find whatever his secret right there with you
meng said though i practiced at one may with the assembly i could not truly realize my original face now thanks to your appointed instruction i am like someone who drinks water and knows personally whether it is cold
or one
lay brother you aren't now my teacher
the teacher said if you can say that than that us both call on make our kitchen
maintain your realization catholic
my mans comment a woman's comment and and converted to chinese or pride my pronunciation
it must be said that the sixth ancestor forgets himself completely in taking action pair with grandmotherly kindness he peels are fresh leaky removes the seed and puts it into your mouth
then you only need to swallow it down
met verse
it can't be described it can't be pictured it can't be praised enough stop groping for it
the original face has nowhere to hide
when the world is destroyed it is not destroyed
this is one of forty eight cases of them a warming one
with woman's ah commentary and verse
a book published a in the early thirteenth century
yeah some of our most were the ancestors and didn't know about it and saying for example didn't know
however it became
very popular
yeah and
for centuries now it has been a primary source
for then study
the sixth ancestor
dodd gen went on
but so-called because he was sixth
in succession from bodhidharma who introduced the antecedent of zen buddhism into china
when i was born in six thirty eight
about one hundred a little over one hundred years after bodhidharma came to china
the son of a civil servant who lost his position and then died young
leaving him and his mother penniless
it has said that he had no schooling but worked as a child and youth to support himself and his mother as a peddler of firewood
one day while delivering would to a customer he heard a monk reciting the diamond sutra
it now
if i you are chinese person today and you heard someone reciting the diamond sutra you wouldn't understand a word and the same is true if someone reciting it in a draft mats in japan
hmm become rather antique in it's a personality
but in my lungs time the chinese of the diamond sutra was the vernacular
so ah yeah
he could understand each word
his mind opened and he experienced the realization
one tradition states that this occurred at the lines
dwell nowhere and bring forth that my
the young way down approach the monk and asked who his teacher might be the monk said his teacher was the fifth ancestor one may one rem who lived a thousand or more miles away in north china
play nung resolved to go there and study
it has said that a neighbor kindly agreed to support his mother and wait known set out like the young check your money in search of his spiritual fortune
arriving finally at one may he was shown into home runs presence who asked him
where are you from that you come to this mountain making obeisance to me what is it that you seek here
when nung said
i come from lingnan in the not in the south i have come this long distance seeking no particular thing only the buddha dharma
home run said if you are from lingnan than you are a barbarian how can you become a buddha
why dung said though people from the north and south are different there is no north or south in the dharma or in buddha nature though my barbarians body and your body or not the same what difference is there in our buddha nature
hundred and recognize the birth of his new student but assigned him to the harvesting shed to husk rice
one senses that hung run had a rather unsettled sanga and they hadn't he had to be careful not to stir up the monks with decisions that were threaten their status
rice husking would be the logical job for an illiterate name in
then a few months passed
and hung run felt the need to name a successor feeling old
he announced a contest for this purpose saying whoever believes that he is worthy of dharma transmission should submit a point showing his understanding of the way and i will acknowledge the writer of the best poem as the next master
in our line
all monks felt that their head monk shouldn't you had the clearest insight of all so none of them wrote anything
shoot you however wasn't sure of his own attainment so instead of turning in a poem he wrote one anonymously on a wall if it were approved he could step forward and announce his authorship if it were a disapproved he could just keep say
so he wrote the body is the bodhi tree the mind is like a clear mirror moment by moment white the mirror carefully let there be no dust upon it
hooman praise this plan very much as indeed it is a fine exposition of samadhi practice
and he had all his monks committed to memory and recite it however he said nothing about making its author his successor
hainan heard a monk reciting the poem and recognized immediately the limitation of its authors realization
learning of the contest for the first time he dictated his own poem to the monk who wrote it on the wall beneath that of shinshu
bodhi really has no tree
the mirror to has no stand there is nothing at all from the beginning
work and any dust a light

everyone was impressed with this second point and felt upset at the rumor that the young that the lay worker in the harvest shed had dictated it home run recognized it's worth but prudently rubbed it out
with his slipper say it was of no value
that night however he summoned were known to his room and preached to him on the diamond sutra
why not grasp the inner sense of the sutra at once and thereupon home run conveyed the robe and ball a bodhidharma to him as symbols of transmission
warning him that some monks would seek to do him harm if he remained at the monastery the teacher personally road way nung across the river and advised him to polish his realization secretly for some time before
emerging as a teacher
next day on run told his monks what had happened and they became agitated as they felt sure that they're old teacher he had made a mistake in choosing a lung yarn layman as his successor they set out in pursuit of random in order to bring back
the precious symbols of transmission
the head monk ming a former general who is powerful in body and will soon out distance all the others in the pursuit
the story in the present case picks up here
is it a two story
from very early times buddhist history has been rewritten to clarify archetype of themes
for example on examining the internal evidence
most scholars believe that way none could not have been illiterate
in fact the historical validity of the entire citra of way none is doubtful
such chronicles should be read as instructive folk stories and if it can be shown that they have historically factual elements well that's interesting
but not profoundly significant
scholars seek the historical facts zen student sikh religious themes
my own view is that where a scholarship helps to clarify the themes it can be very useful the rest can distract the student of religion from resolving life and death questions
in the early days of my internment in japan during world war two i was feeling full of doubts about myself in the world
i had recently looked down the wrong end of some very threatening weapons and i was looking for a religious base
i had not yet encountered zinn
one day i asked a catholic priest who was interned with us what if it could be proved that jesus never lived he replied my faith would be destroyed
though i was young and unformed in understanding i felt there was something wrong with that answer somehow i knew that while jesus is important historically for christians still that is surely not his primary significance
in the same way it is important for us to see the virtue of randoms illiteracy his lay status his exposure of the fallacies of self centered samadhi
other lessons include the dangers of malice and the importance of not seeking to teach to son
this case is an adult fairy tale that orders our deepest archetypes to the way
the head monk ming was intent upon chasing down the thief of transmission
mind running after a nun
as head monk ming must have had some understanding of the dharma yet he allowed himself to be carried away by group anger
this is all too human with the drop of a hat zen students including you and me we'll follow upon mob excitement and neglect the put away
the sixth and sister seeing his concerning him coming laid the robe and ball on iraq and said this robe represents the dharma there should be no fighting over it you may take it back with you
these words must have been very startling to ming whose spirit was already simmering
an important symptom
the head monk ming was ready for experience
one might simmer with anger despair nostalgia or just a weird sense of something unknown
this is the context of great opportunity you have stepped out of your usual state of mind and can step from there into something altogether new be alert to this chance
men tried to lift up the role but it was immovable as a mountain
ah there you see the state of his mind
bob anger no longer was his motive suddenly he was in touch with the profound and subtle law of the photometer he realized the diorama cannot be transmitted by awkward symbols
i am reminded of friedrich frocks die of his conversion to vegetarianism
as a small child during world war one he lived with his family less than a mile from the belgian border
ah he lived in in holland
which was a notre during world war one
i was from my fifth to ninth year confronted with the incomprehensible horror of seeing living human flesh in the tatars of german belgian and french uniforms
coming across the border on push carts and other improvised ambulances it's sensitized me against all forms of physical violence
during those childhood years frank was forced against his will to eat fish and meat and was preoccupied with a home ground cohen
whether it was more evil to eat whole sardines than a slice of cod
one day his doubts were resolved
it happened in a restaurant when a fragrant filet de sol ahmadi was put in front of me
i took my fork but it refused to touch the fish i ate the palm to just and never knowingly eight animal flesh again
the fork would not touch the fish just as the rob would not budge for the head monk me
ming however had to take another step
shivering and trembling he said i come for the dharma not for the road
he wasn't just making a defensive excuse but had suddenly realized his on true intention i beg you lay brother opened the way for me
thus he opens himself sincerely
when nung said don't think good don't think evil
this is an essential preamble to true realization
in the hsin hsin ming we read
to set up what you like against what you dislike this is the disease of the mind
comparisons are odious
i hear grown up people say i don't like sign saw
such prejudice limits one's understanding of buddha nature
of the buddha nature of the world and it's be acts
rather than setting up good and evil in the mind set up right views the first step of the eightfold path
right is the opposite of mistaken it is an attitude that is in keeping with the interdependence of things and they're essential emptiness
don't think good don't think evil means really
find the silent place of essential harmony in your mind and be ready for what might come
when none goes on to say at this very moment what is the original face of ming the head monk
with this fresh new existential question ming had great realization
sweat ran from his entire body in tears he asked besides these secret words and secret meetings is there anything or further significance
why known answered what i have just conveyed to you is not secret if you'll reflect on your own face whatever his secret will be there right there with you
minc said though i practiced at one may with the assembly i could not truly realize my original face
no problem with one may but ming's pursuit and wine nugs roads give him a perspective that is altogether changed
now thanks to your pointed instruction i am like one who drinks water and knows personally whether it is cold or warm
at last it is internet
and incidentally i have discussed this were an intimate
at length an earlier cases
ah intimacy in zen literature is a synonym for realization
when you are intimate you are one with when you are not intimate you are in your head
so a intimacy is a key word
more than a key word
there is something to truly experience
lay brother you are now my teacher
ming was ready to follow his new guy
when i said if you can say that then let us both called one way our teacher
the teacher had home runs cushion in mind and was saying in effect i must deepen my realization for a while
actually according to a traditional account he lived with a party of hunters for fifteen years
i cannot be your teacher at this time you had best returned to hong may and bring peace to the monastery there
this is not a call on point but it isn't important nonetheless the monks were upset than a mere layman had written an interesting point and then that he had been selected as home runs successor if there is no harmony in buddhist temple how can it's residents bring harm
many to the world and fulfilled their vows
finally when on cushions the head monk me maintain your realization carefully
this is advice for us all practice certainly does not end with realization
woman quant comments it must be said that the sixth ancestor forgets himself completely in taking action here
his body and mind fall away
in fact
the needs of the head monk ming's than the paramount
with grandmother their kindness he peels a fresh bitchy
removes the seed and puts it into your mouth then you only need to swallow it down
nothing for way none one hundred forming nothing from me one hundred for you the dharma can be conveyed only in this way the sanga can function on me in this way
this verse reads it can't be described it can't be pictured it can't be praised enough stop groping for it
it is your original face it can be presented personally but it disappears once you try to say what it is
it most assuredly is not something especially imbued in the road and ball
as on understood very well he wisely hid them away in an unknown place or destroy them and the practice of numbering the ancestors stumped with him
the original face has nowhere to hide
does not secret at all
there are no boundaries at top when the world is destroyed it is not destroyed
why not
this is the final call on point
my keeper
so we have about fifty minutes fire question and answer him
what we end
they did not come yet
ah yeah it's kind of matter of fact it's it's kind of common sense that we we we should try to seek to keep peace in the family and it's our responsibility to keep peace in a family
a the koran point here in this case is what is the original face of the month yo
and then there there are points in the poem
the main point of the plan is
one point as the original face has nowhere to hide and then when the world is destroyed it is not to strike
and so in this and points emerge with thousand and and judicious prompts
what prompts prompt
the nudges
the living
yes absolutely
with directly

well all
you know
the whole world is made up of metaphors
the whole world is metaphor really
we are being instructed all the time
a there's a wonderful story about a teacher who are a future teacher and monk who was out on a taco how to autocrats answer is that is the trip outside to the village or town and
month except suffered or money
and here are standing outside a butcher shop for something goes open shot and he could hear the customary packing to the proprietor and the customer was saying
give me two pounds of your best bar me
and the butcher said all my bar me is the best bargains and with that
he was ready
it got it
the what the
the teacher tries to do is to find those
and actions or to summon up those expressions and actions
and if
the teacher is really good it's second nature
which will prompt understanding or at least prompt ah
a closer
adherence to the way
now certain of these terms and
certain of these dialogues and these actions
have become
our kingdom
you know
they have become
so a empower you might say go with ah the ah d zazi in and the close attention of countless students down through the ages
that you know like the coin mo is an example
it's just am you you know but ah it's it's like care
an image that has been
by generations after generations of monks and nuns
ah concentrated in that one word low this the whole universe may i
so it is important to enter in there
now of course young talks about archetypes in a little different way you know they the the
wise old woman and the dwarf and other figures appear in in dreams and
how far a kind of for
ah will have a profound significance for the dreamer that comes out of for human racial memory
this is a different
this archetypes are also
yeah profound and they come out of human racial memory
their function is instructive
their function is to bring one to peak experience
so what to
a woman did a in collecting his stories in
what's the select forty eight
of the probably hundreds of thousands of saris are available by yeah
by verbal or tradition
you can imagine in in town china there were literally hundreds of zen teachers
and each of these send teachers each evening met with students and there were there were dharma dialogue i'm a condo is going on during the combat each evening there will be a maybe twenty or twenty or thirty monks coming forward
every evening for these hundreds of teachers over over hundreds of years so there were many many many stars
and out of these you know a bubble to the surface as most significant
ah well in our curriculum at the diamond soccer five hundred and fifty
in some other
and call on traditions
fifteen hundred as many as that
really very few
and it's interesting the coin mode is ah
the first time
so out of those in are countless cards guns five hundred fifty out of those five hundred fifty pounds of what this yes that's shown by experienced to be the most efficacious
i don't i've just been talking along here and response to your question i'm not sure that i've been touched down on her own

the in the man
the through
he considered the right time means that i had no you cannot fucking is an archetype traffic
no i said in gen our instructor
they're also instructive of course of course when i want to add two hundred to him and his team were not as immediate as instructed were helpful to the normal life were a con or when he said during an dinnertime
you know that really touches the heart of things that question and touches the heart of it
and fundamentally
although they overlap
you know we can distinguish between spiritual practice in therapy
and young is interested in spiritual practice he's interested in religion
but working with is working with individuals ah ah hoping to make them whole people
whereas the con
gives us the the experience of
well to use sic not hamster into being
you know
it's the it's in hundreds of you know they've introduced the kentucky card knowledge is a wonderful songbird it's the cardinal that teaches us
no ah and ah
it's the the
a con
a opens us to our
the unity with all things and the ephemerality in fact they
they can see we can say
of all things which in human terms is in our peace
so therapy and and religious experience overlap
but believe me zen practice is ah
release from the south rather than self correction
the drought being a whole earth
what the
that time as i ran away or boy it is oh boy yeah and they
the more neurotic you and i are the harder time we have with zen practice
no thought about it
the mentally handicapped person cannot do zazen
the child really can't do something
the child needs can can sit down with you
but that child is not doing thousand in adult sensitive to that you know that child has to go through puberty and all are all of those things that go with puberty and resolve all those things that go with cookie pretty well and and then was and i think it can be meaningful
yeah and so
when people come who have emotional problem severe emotional problems mean i welcome them but i encourage them also to get conventional help and either do that first and then zazi
call me up and saying hey you know what your student told me in all that stuff i
huh possible as whole as possible
and there's no end to it
and the one helps the other you know the zen practice helps the psychological practice the process psychological practice helps that thousand
no doubt about it
some advantages was well try to steer their students away from therapy butter
i'm not one of
you think it's important to have a therapist and familiar yes i do yes i do or at least someone who has had some contact with one of the meditative disciplines might be passed now or tibetan buddhism or something weekend and i find doesn't really matter
they have a general idea what's going on
yes i'm going on
and do
a dreams
come to our

accurate that know
then and know
yeah well as they overlap you know ah
a in fact the case twenty five and i'll read case twenty five we have an uptime and during my stay here tomorrow to go
a with and with a deep dream
the part of a cousin you know cause goes to to my dress to sit i haven't
and led him to sit in the third seat
sink in a sitting amongst strikes the gavel and sets today the one and a third seat will speak but you know chucky money was sitting in the first seat probably and i tray on the second seat or maybe it was the other way around harry was in the thirty so very confidently he arose and
stuck to stand with the gavel and said the truth or the my mahayana transcends the far propositions and is beyond the one hundred negations listen listen
that's his dream
great dream
ah and in fact
it's a kind of macho if you know about marco
marco are the ibm
since distortions that you experience in thousand particularly that dream deep dreams if you experience in zazen where you find yourself a participant in the central participant in some kind of religious ritual or you find yourself to be one of the
the archetype of figures like the buddha are going in our r g so
are you
can be compared to and revisions of the virgin mary you know that the that the christian mystics for her
but whereas the they often in christianity that vision is considered the be all and end all you know and the person becomes a thing
and then it's just a milestone on the path
and can be very
if it is taken as something up
a certain gamasutra the chinese certain gamasutra there are several san dimas
but the the one that's translated by charles look
guess fifty kinds of macho
is there worth going back and looking at because they're very instructive

yes i am
something that is
the from killing yes yes
now i'm not talking about me who on on
releasing the yes or no important yeah not that of yes
i could to and to
then i am
my name
really the can be yes yes it is willy nilly
the first to healing the fell
releasing the term abruptly in the of yes yes if the other side yes i do
so yes we have back the believe in ourselves yes
but isn't the only way you're feeling our than nine releasing the order another my therapy yes
turn it to it gets very blurred
another term for
a realization experience in
than literature is the great death
and in fact this term is not confined to buddhism or zen but is found in christianity and judaism and islam
are you hear the injunction you must die to yourself
ah and the great fear in fact the terror and that is spoken of in the heart sutra
yeah i i don't remember how your translation reads but our transportation which no hindrance and therefore no fear well that that when fear in the original chinese is more accurately translated terror
and this is the terror that many and students are most of and students fail at a certain point in the practice because it is a fear of death it is a fear of that release of the south which is really transformation of south africa
so i think
all these things make
at that great death or can meet in the physical death
not always with the physical death as you know yeah some people
resisting it to the very last
making themselves miserable to the very last

oh well really it is no different from from the the self that is washing the dishes are cooking up the food
it's not a matter of samadhi

you know i'm reminded of something that can
rajneesh said i have no brief for raj nice but a but
he says very good things here and there be
one of the things she said was
yeah that ah
and practice does not lead to a realization
are in your temps understanding of original face
hey there is no straight line cause and effect
from or through practice to
realization is an excellent
so then you might ask why should i practice well practice makes you accident prone
so it is very good
to practice ah contessa very good to practice
ah and one reaches are still quiet place
but a realization of once original face may be far away
and as to where it is in fact that
snap not separate

yeah right

it may be in it may not be
it may be nothing more than just him
what was picking of here is a transformational experience
and we're also speaking of the fact that with that transformational experience i find that has been there all a lot


ah well ah i don't
i wouldn't to
say that

you know if you say the original faces on all things as they appear it flattens and you know
yeah and
there's no potency left anymore
even though it may be true
so it's important not to try to generalize but to get at quite nuns real intention here
and so you are asked to show in the ducks on room in the sons and room show me the original face of the monk named
that's that's the car and when you can rarely see what that is then you can present minx original face transcending time and space

yeah understand means to stand under it yeah
there's nothing
practice that was with as as the original face is that
that that to consistent i really like gardens down
i think there's one that through the most consistent ah i think that is all right but it's it's a bit philosophical and get to a tear
rises from
yeah the view that somebody is
on may way
the that ah
yes yes not know that lives up the baubles and the and the cardinals and the and the the thrushes
what the geckos
but to make a job
yes to make it your on take it on yourself

to personalize
to become into
yes my free
in the world
oh when the world is destroyed it is not destroyed yes k what is what is it in this context
another the reaction i have only if
the convention me
you know everything falls away
goggins engineer says body and mind fall away but actually a lot more than that far away

if i
to synergy
i the ready
oh no to they do two different things will be learned that time
if it's not like planted inside the carolina
the unit
or what degree of raping
there are many many degrees depending on the individual yeah
no the with some people it is just
oh that must be
are you can read in three colors of zen know your mother she's a kind of his own experience
and so very interesting story
the he had been doing so us and for some time
and he was on his way home from work on a train and he was reading the in the
sheboygan though i've forgotten the chapter
ah where duggan's and angie says
mind is the mountains the rivers the great earth the sun the moon and stars
and he's suddenly was struck by this this a passage
and curse came to us actually flowed from his eyes he felt rather embarrassed looking around at his fellow businessmen you know sitting there in the first class card to their suits and hats you know you here at this guy was sitting there weeping
ah and then came home hasn't had dinner with his family and and evening with his family went the bed
and suddenly in the middle of the night
he heard these words know the mind is the mountains the rivers the great earth the sun and moon and stars
and he leapt out of bed left out of bed which is left out of bed and stamped on they here on the tatami get on the floor and the whole universe opened its great mouth and gave a great not
as he laughed
and his wife he had to come yet all can trackback trackback url
ah but there is that kind of experience to
so this is this a quiet array
oh but even your mother oshie had to begin with the checking questions with their stunning hiroshi and continue with miscellaneous coins and then got through the various books of guns just like everybody else
and it often happens that what seems to be a rather mild experience interest turns out to be rather deep
our even vice versa
indeed for shallow you know these are
the words on a single line
a sort of range as it's much more dynamic than that
and that experiences only the beginning that's where it start sensors in practice in my view really starts with a deep experience
our shower experience whatever it is
cause then then you know you have an opening and you can enter the
after him
and enjoy the fun
i didn't come to to me i buy my own trip on you for she has somehow got drawn it

sir marcus if
down the current
rip my britain
brave you're out of britain
pocket pocket you walk a lot
written by real date
in fact the parker or number on certain level you are broccoli
of evil
yeah i haven't i had a interesting experience in berkeley this visit i i got acquainted with occupy sensing i think he's been here
said she'd get him
really a wonderful man
and we were talking about a mutual acquaintance
and he had heard this person give a talk
and so i said what did you think
and he said in his inevitable english not yet chopstick
and his wife she's you know said what not yet chopstick what do you mean and i was laughing you know that i said i agree i agree and death and so he explained he says
chopstick appear okay but just the care motive
but the
not yet
but they're all on the path you know
not making invidious comparisons here
hi i feel
the are here
the are with my on
and while here
especially a chanting the odd such as that we don't do and cook on anymore
where the part of my training in japan
i hear they got the community ah zen practice where i came keenly
and particularly now my my own teacher in your mother russia is in is very ill very critical condition and and is probably dying
so i'm yeah
very much you're in turn with sir
what is happening there in his own center and i know that the such as they are reciting for him or the same such as you're curious i can hear
in the same way
so it's very moving from me
to be here
the practice with you
mira all in it together
and ah
you are taking responsibility hot sauce
try the dharma richards very heartening

have you could tear
remember him in my servants and mother called on
he has sir
pneumonia the old man's friend because pneumonia
ha ha i don't know if you've heard that term in that your hospice work
they say
it's traditionally the west spin called that as the easy way to go
ha thank you very much