Good afternoon. We start paragraph 16. From this paragraph until paragraph 22, Dogen discuss about the expression dharma flower turning. we are turned by dharma flower. And after that he discusses about the shingou, ten hokke, for turning dharma flower. When our mind is in realization, we turn the dharma flower. So this is about when our mind is in delusion. I think probably this part is more interesting.

[01:02]

It's closer to our situation. So let me read paragraph by paragraph, our first paragraph. Being turned by the Dharma flower means that the mind is in delusion. The mind under delusion is just being turned by the Dharma flower. Therefore, when the mind is in delusion,

[02:08]

it is turned by the dharma flower. The essential meaning of this is that even when the ten thousand forms are influenced and seen by mind in delusions, the forms as suchness are being turned by the dharma flower. Being turned in this way is not something to be delighted. And it is not something to anticipate. It's not to be gained. It does not arrive. However, the Dharma flower's turning is neither two nor three. Because the Dharma flower's turning is only the one Buddha vehicle. And because it is the dharma flower as forms of suchness, whether it is turning or being turned, it is the one Buddha vehicle and the single great matter.

[03:22]

Simply put, moment after moment, It is sincere red heart, which is the only thing we depend on. So this is about the mind in delusion. In Chinese, . OK. OK. So this is, as we already read, Huinan's verse about this person's father's condition of reciting the sutra.

[05:05]

And when you answer to this further, when your mind is deluded, you are turned by the Dharma flower. And when your mind is in realization, you turn the Dharma flower. And Dogen make comment on these two expressions. You know, mei, or in Japanese, mayoi, and go is satori. mayoi and satori, Dogen made the definition of what is mayoi and what is satori in Genjo Koan. As I already said, to convey ourselves toward a myriad of things and carry out practice enlightenment.

[06:14]

Shusho, the word Dogen uses, shusho. Shu is practice. Sho is enlightenment or identification. But this means enlightenment or realization. That means shu, in this expression shu shou, shu is cause and shou is result. This is a common expression as a Buddhist term. And this is an abbreviation of a little longer expression that is mong, shi, shu.

[07:23]

I'm sorry, mong, shi, shu, shu, mong, shi, shu, shu. Mong means to hear, and shi means to think. And show is practice. And show is evidence or verification. That means, first, this is a process of our practice. When we hear someone's teaching, we think about it. And if we think that is reasonable and that is doable, we try to put that teaching into practice. So when we practice, We, as a result, we find the evidence that teaching is really true.

[08:29]

That is what this show means. Show literally means proof. Proof or as a word, proof or evidence. So when we hear and think, our understanding is intellectual. But when we practice, we experience what this really meant. And that practice... After we practice, we find the evidence or verification, you know, this teaching is really true. So practice is a cause. And shou is a result or evidence or verification that this teaching is true. That is the original meaning of this expression, mon shi shu shou.

[09:35]

So this is a process of our study and practice. So the final one is also called satori. We really understand through our practice that the teaching is really true. But when Dogen Zenji used this expression, shusho, Use this as one word. It's not stages or it's not a cause and result. But shusho as a compound is one word. So as a translation, it's often like such as practice slash enlightenment. That shows this is one word. It's not two separate stages.

[10:39]

That means practice and verification or cause and result are one thing. That means we don't need to wait until we finish or graduate from practice to find that teaching is true. When we practice, that practice is itself evidence. or result. So result, cause and result, or method and the goal are one thing. That is what shu shou means. And Dogen said in Genjo Koan, famous expression of Dogen, shu shou ichi nyo. Ichi is one. Myo is thusness. So shusho is one thusness.

[11:43]

Or shusho itto. Ichi is one, and to is equal. So I translated one and equal, but some Americans said that is strange. If we do one, we cannot say equal. So this can be translated as one and the same. So practice and realization or verification are one thing. It's not two separate stages. That is what Dogen said. Please. Yes. Yes. One new day, one such news. Okay. Okay.

[12:47]

So that is what Dogen said. Dogen said shusho practice realization or practice verification. Shusho is within the relation between self and media dharmas. you know, self and media dharmas around us. And he said, when we convey, carry our selves toward myriad dharmas and try to carry out this practice realization, then Dogen said, that is delusion. That is the definition of what delusion means. And he said, Finn Myriad, media dharmas come to the self and allow the self to carry out practice realization.

[13:54]

It's satori. I think he used Japanese word satori instead of these kanji. So satori or realization and delusion is a matter of direction, whether we carry ourselves toward myriad of things or myriad of things come to us. Myriad. Pardon? Each and everything. Each and everything. Yeah. Yeah. That means the subject, the one or person who practice or carry out this practice enlightenment is not this person.

[15:00]

But myriad dharmas practice, you know, carry out this practice realization through the self. It's not my practice. Myriad practice, myriad dharmas practice through this person, through the self. that is realization but when we take ourselves and try to find what is true what is not true what is more beneficial what is uh make me more wise or whatever beneficial things we are looking for when we approach toward the object and try to find what is good, what is not good, what is false, what is true. If we approach in that way, that practice enlightenment or that practice is delusion. That is the Dogen definition of satori and mayoi, or realization and delusion.

[16:11]

And this is kind of different from the model of delusion and enlightenment. As I said in the... What is the word? I forget. Daijou kishinron. Daijou kishinron. awakening of faith in Mahayana, as I said. This original mind nature is itself enlightened. But when the wind of ignorance blows, somehow this mind starts to move. then this mind separates into two parts. One is subject and another is object.

[17:14]

And subject and object are intact. And we create all different kind of realms from hell to heaven. So in this model, enlightenment means we stop doing this. and return to this original mind without any movement of the wave caused by the ignorance. In this case, enlightenment and delusion is all in this body and mind. So it's not a matter of how we self-relate with others. When our mind is agitated by the window of ignorance, this body and mind become deluded.

[18:18]

So when we calm down and stop thinking, stop this discriminating way of thinking, then we could return to this mind nature, and that is enlightenment. This is one model of practice to stop thinking. But in Dogen's model, it's not a matter of whether our mind is agitated or not. Of course, often agitated. But that direction or relation between self and media dharma, how we relate with others. So in order to make this change, just stop thinking is not enough. But we have to fix the relation with others.

[19:20]

When we fix our relation with others, then our mind calms down. Because we have twisted relation with ourselves and with others, our mind becomes twisted and distorted and cannot function naturally. So our practice is not stop thinking, but our practice is, how can I say, fix the twisted relation with others by just sitting and restore the oneness with all beings. I think that is our Zazen. So our Zazen is not a practice to stop the window of ignorance. So our mind or our brain continue to produce all different kind of illusory thoughts coming and going.

[20:26]

But we don't... we don't grasp them and take action based on those deluded thinking. then as i said this morning you know the our brain our brain as a like a engine is still moving and producing uh all different kind of illusory thought but we don't take action based on those thoughts so as i said this is like a put the gear into neutral then the engine is still moving but the car doesn't move then we don't make karma. When our crutch gets somewhere, then it's fixed. Then we start to do something based on our illusory thought.

[21:28]

Then we create good or bad karmas. But at least in our zazen, we make determination not to take any action based on things happening in our mind. Please. What is that? Not only evil, but we don't practice good. But in a sense, this is the best practice. So zazen is before separation, before distinction between good and bad. That is the definition of me and go, or satori and mayoi, in Dogen's teaching.

[22:33]

Then I think there is a kind of interesting question, and I don't have answer yet. The question is, here, when we are deluded, we try to turn the myriad of things. So we are active and myriad of things are positive. Myriad of dharmas are passive. We active, we try to deal with things. And in the case of satori, myriad of things are active and we are passive. Deceptive? What's the difference? Okay, you can use any English now, any English you want.

[23:46]

But here, when our mind is deluded, we are turned by Dharma flower. So dalma flower is active and we are passive or deceptive. And so this is opposite. When dalma flower turns, we are deluded. And when we turn the dharma flower, we are in realization. So this relation is opposite. And this is, I think, good question. Why opposite? Why opposite? Why this relation between sin and dharma flower, and the self and the myriad dharmas? I'm trying to say that a little bit.

[24:52]

If we're not ethically grasping well-dominant, but open or receptive, let that come to us. That seems to be passive. Yes. But we're actively learning the well-dominant to say, that's what I could do. That might be my answer to the question. That means when we act this way, try to deal with all beings and put them into my control, that is delusion. But when we act in this way, we are turned by the Dharma flowers. But when we open ourselves toward myriad things, then, you know, we are passive.

[26:09]

But in that passive condition, we turn the Dharma flower. Does it make sense? So the expressions sound opposite, but they are pointing at the same thing. When we open our hand and open toward all beings and work together with all beings, uh you know we are turning but when we try to deal with everything based on my idea and put all of them into my control then within such activity we are turned by the dharma and dogen said it's not necessarily bad

[27:14]

I mean, when I wrote the book about Genjo Koan, we think, this is Dogen's, no, I wrote, this is Dogen's definition of delusion and realization. So we have to make transformations. we stop doing this and practice like this. That is my interpretation in Genjo Koan. And I think that is correct understanding. But when he discuss about Shinmei in this expression, This shinmei is not something bad, so we have to stop. That means, you know, as a bodhisattva practice, you know, in the very first lecture I said, you know,

[28:25]

In the original or early Buddhist teaching, there are two sets of teachings. One is worldly dharma, in which there is good and bad. And we have to make choice to do good and avoid to do evil in order to be born in heaven or hell. And another one is going beyond good and bad, so non-duality. And I said, as a Mahayana Buddhism, this separation between duality and non-duality is a problem. That is the main point of the Lotus Sutra. So worldly dharma and beyond worldly dharma should be integrated or should be interpenetrated each other.

[29:29]

And that is what one vehicle means. So one vehicle has two sides. One is discrimination. Another is beyond or non-discrimination. So within our practice, we need both. We don't escape from discrimination. And yet we are only within discrimination. Then we are like the lotus which doesn't go beyond the surface of the muddy water. So we need both. Please. So let's say I'm a practitioner. I'm practicing receiving all things. And I go downtown, and I see a man beating up a woman. My impulse is to go stop the man from beating the woman, to intervene, and maybe even hit the man to stop him.

[30:38]

How does that action integrate with what you're saying here? That is a good question. That is the core one. How can we integrate these two, good and bad? And we have to choose good things, to do good things, and avoid unwholesome things. Not only I avoid evil things, but if evil things are happening, then we act as to stop it. To do so, we need discrimination. But if we only live in that rear room, we become, how can I say, decisive device. That means that we make a kind of a distinction between good and bad, and good is okay, bad is not okay. Therefore, people who do evil things or unwholesome things are bad people.

[31:50]

And there is another group of people who are good. And I am good, they are bad. This kind of separation is created when we only stay in this reality. So we need a kind of... going beyond this discrimination to be a bodhisattva. That means even those people who do unwholesome things have some cause and conditions. It's not, you know, they are bad people. Because of certain cause and conditions, they... do such and such things. That is kind of a common ground. And of course, we cannot, you know, encourage them to do unwholesome or we cannot recommend them to continue doing that but we need to make effort to stop it but if we only in this discriminative you know level we have hatred and anger against those people that that create our problem

[33:14]

So we need the common ground where all beings are living together. Then we can be compassionate even to those people who do unwholesome things. So I would hit this man to stop him from hurting the woman, and then I would be kind to both after. But that is what one Buddha vehicle means. In Lotus Sutra, we should include both that is discriminative nature.

[34:17]

And we need to choose good things. And yet, we also, at the same time, we need the wisdom which go beyond good and bad. That is what I think this one Buddha vehicle means. Please. How can we save both of them? with compassion i think is a point of both of the practice instead of i hate that that man but i i love this woman then we separate our world and we might say you know these are bad people so we have to eliminate them then this world become harmonious

[35:38]

That is a realm of ashura, ashura or fighting spirit. Fighting spirit means I have a justice and they are bad. Therefore, I have to fight against them and eliminate them. Then this world become a good place. And that is not a bodhisattva spirit. In order to not become asura, we need this non-discriminative wisdom. I think that is the point of Mahayana teaching. Okay? Is there anyone else, please? When you say go beyond, you mean don't be hung up on your... go beyond means not clinging to either side or clinging to the how can I say, distinction or separation, and this is good, that is bad, this clinging.

[36:48]

But going beyond, we need to understand what is good and what is bad, then go beyond. So going beyond does not mean we stop thinking. I think at least we need to be open to everyone. And of course something we have to say, you are not welcome. Or this is something I should do. This is not something I should not do. So that doesn't mean cut off one half.

[37:54]

That is what Dogen said in Shobo Genzo, Shoaku Makusa. Shoaku Makusa is not doing evil. In that... he said, when our practice matures, evil becomes something not done, not to be done. It's not my like and dislike. But naturally, evil is not done. Showa Komakusa. No, evil is not done. Done, D-O-N-E. Not engaged. Not performed. Yeah. So it's not, how can I say, rejection, but we open the situation and with Buddha's insight,

[39:06]

We see with compassion, and naturally, for example, a mother takes care of baby. Mother don't think each time and say that is good or bad, but naturally taking care of the life in a positive way. So within, you know, mother's practice to take care of baby, it's not a matter of discrimination. But this is only possible way mother act to protect the baby. Does this make sense? I don't think so. You can say no. Yeah.

[40:12]

Sometimes to say no is helpful or beneficial to that person. Right? So this means to deal with kindness and compassion. And kindness and compassion sometimes say no. If you do such a thing or if I help you doing such a thing, it makes the situation unhealthy. Then to say no is a compassionate answer. And that is what Buddha said when monks made mistakes. When Buddha said you should not do such a thing, I think Buddha was compassionate. You know, she didn't dislike the marks, right? So to open means, does not mean to have to yes to everything. To say no can be most compassionate answer, certain situation.

[41:21]

Please? When Yuji Yamaguchi approached you to learn English, to teach, you said yes. you didn't say no. That decision wasn't a discriminating mind decision. Would you like another to say yes to her? I don't know. My problem is I'm not good at saying no. Since my childhood, somehow I have been a good boy until I became a teenager. When I became teenager, I hate this. To be a good boy, instead of doing things from inside of myself, first we have to understand what other people expect from me.

[42:30]

And when I understand that, I try to do that. And when I became a teenager, I hate that attitude. So I wanted to say no to everything. Everything, for example, my parents or teachers or schools or Japanese society expect me, that was in 1960s, to work hard and to make money. I hate that. So I said no to that kind of expectation. So I thought I became bad boy. So I stopped studying hard at the school. I often escaped from the classroom and went to a library.

[43:35]

laughter laughter laughter But that's the way I found Uchimurashi's book. That's the way I found Buddhism. So I escaped from this Japanese society and became a Buddhist monk. That was kind of my way of saying no. But later I found that after I became a monk, I still be a good boy. to my teacher and also to Buddha or Buddhist tradition and when I became around 30 I said that was not right but I in this case I didn't escape in this time but until then I think to be a good monk I studied Buddhist teachings and I practice hard not hard but harder than others to because I wanted to make sure I'm a good man I have to study and practice more than other people

[45:05]

That was not right. And that made my body half broken. You know, I practice, I devoted my entire life in this practice, and I went to Massachusetts, and I worked too hard, physical work. So I had a pain on my neck, shoulder, elbow, and knees. And that knee problem continue. until today anyways I found that was a problem so I this time I didn't escape but I quit to be a good boy that means until then I wanted to live like Dogen but after that I quit that I found that I had to deeply look into my my mind and my life, and I found that I don't really want to live like Dogen.

[46:18]

So after that, I become free from Dogen. And then instead of Dogen, Ryokan became my teacher. Ryokan is more relaxed and flexible than Dogen. So after that, I started to read Dogen, and I tried to live like Ryokan instead of Dogen. So my tendency or desire to be a good boy Continuous. I think I'm still a good boy, but I am not, how can I say, controlled by this desire to be a good boy. When I find I try to become a good boy, I, how can I say, laugh at myself.

[47:25]

Anyway, that is the way I became free from my kind of habitual or karmic nature. To be a good boy or to be a good monk might be a cause of sickness. That means another side is bad monk and bad boy. So I think I don't want to be bad boy, I want to be a good monk. This discrimination was the problem. When I free from this discrimination, then I can do whatever I can do. That means my physical condition allowed, I do, but I don't need to do what I cannot do. That is OK. I don't need to evaluate me and say, and make sure that I am a good monk or a good boy.

[48:29]

That is a kind of a liberation from this rigid good and bad discrimination. So I could be, in a sense, compassionate to myself. Please. When the mind is in delusion, it is cured by the dharma flower. And that means that the dharma flower is passive and the mind or we are active. So that, with the other image of the myriad things coming forth, with the myriad things that want to somehow be deterred by the flower and the myriad things coming forth.

[49:33]

That is my confusion, my question. In Genjo Koan and in these... expressions came from Yunnan. It's opposite. Yeah. And so this is our core now. Are these contradicting or showing the same thing from different perspective? And I have no answer yet. Well, here we are. That was my koan for many years. So we need to kind of include or

[50:40]

embrace even something not good in my conception, in my thinking. So we need to be open to all possibilities. But that doesn't mean I can do evil things. Yes? Shakyamuni Buddha turns the wheel of the dharma. He doesn't do anything, right? I guess so. He accepts everything, yeah? I mean, just not non-discrimination. I think so. So it agrees with the potential cause and with this. When... When we practice enlightenment, we turn the dog away. It agrees then, right? It's not... The expression is opposite, right?

[51:49]

Well, here we are. I forget. Oh, I think I'm talking about this fat is mind in delusion. And I said, I'm trying to say there are two kinds of delusion. I mean, two kinds of this model we try to deal with things. One is really delusion, as we, before we studied Dharma or Arad Bodhicitta. we become often self-centered, and we think this is the most important thing, and all other things are the resource or material I can use in whatever way I want to make me happy.

[52:56]

That is what delusion means, I think. But even after I allow bodhicitta and study Buddha's teaching and try to spread dharma, not sometimes, but we need actively do something based on what is good for dharma in this situation. So we have to make choice, in order to make choice, we have to make discrimination or distinction. Fat is good, fat is not good in this situation. but we cannot see the result. So somehow we have to make choice and actually do it. So sometimes it's successful and sometimes not successful. Sometimes it doesn't work, so we have to... When it's successful, we are happy, and when it doesn't work, we feel sad, and yet we continue.

[54:07]

This is still in samsara. So samsara is not necessarily being heaven or hell as a transmigration. But when we have some distinction or discrimination and we have to make choice, then there is success and failure and good result or not so good result. That is even when we work for the Dharma, we always have this. And this is Indogen's expression, made sin in delusion, mind in delusion. That is why as a Bodhisattva we cannot completely escape the realm of world. That means, you know, when I was sent by Uchiyama Roshi, I lived in Massachusetts.

[55:07]

I have to, not me, but three monks live in a very small, tiny place in the wood of Massachusetts. We didn't speak good English, and we had no money, and none of us had driver's license. And the only thing we had was a half-built small house, and And the trees, that's all we have. We didn't have even water. So first thing we did was cut the trees and clear the land, take all the stumps. That was hard work. And even I dug a well with hands. We didn't have machines. Only machine we had was a chainsaw.

[56:13]

So cutting trees easy, but pull out the stump is really hard work. Anyway, that was our choice. And Uchimuro said, before we went there, don't collect money and don't collect people. Just practice, just see for yourself. So we tried to practice in such a situation. So we have to be very creative. And no financial support came from any place. So we had to work to support our practice. And the first thing we did was picking blueberries. There was a blueberry farm near there. But because we didn't have a car, we asked someone to carry the tent near from the blueberry farm.

[57:19]

And we lived in the tent for, I think, three weeks in the summer to pick blueberries. You know, that kind of work. You know, that was my choice, our choice. So there are many possibilities, not so many, because we are Japanese, without speaking so much English, and without, you know, car, in the woods in the western Massachusetts. In order even to do shopping, we had to walk about one hour to the nearest town. And a few years after, we got a job at a tofu shop. The factory in uptown, it's about 20 miles away from where we lived. So until I got a driver's license, I first walked to the small town for about one hour, and I did hitchhike.

[58:29]

So it takes usually four hours or so. to go to the work. And I worked, I think, from 4 in the afternoon until 10 in the night as a janitor. And after I finished working, I cleaned the factory. So I couldn't go back home. So I stayed in there. and walked to the end of the town and did hichaika again. So I returned to the zendo around noon. So it took me almost 24 hours to work six hours. That kind of work. I was 27, 8, 9. So I was young, strong, and foolish. So I thought I could do anything.

[59:33]

And the more I worked, the stronger my body become. And it worked in 20 years. But right after I become 30, my body said no. That's why I had pain. And we didn't have money to have retreat. That's why I had to go back to Japan. Anyway, that kind of choice is a kind of mind in delusion. Maybe we could make better choice. But somehow I liked it. I liked that, you know, because I, you know, first motivation for me to become a Buddhist monk was to escape, escape from this money-making machine.

[60:37]

So I was really happy to live in that way in Massachusetts without making, more than enough money and work with the nature and just sit. So that was my choice, but that was delusion, I think. But as far as we are practicing, we have to make some decision. To make some decision, we find some choices. And we think this might be better and that might work better. So in such a condition, that means we are always in such a condition. We have to make a decision. Even when our delusion is not to my self's desire, even when we work for the Dharma, our mind is in delusion.

[61:38]

That kind of delusion is something Bodhisattva cannot avoid. Please? Roshi said not to collect money or collect people. What did he mean by collecting people? Don't make advertisement to collect people. Advertisement, yeah. That means just practice silently, quietly. And if someone comes, just accept. But don't ask people. Hello.

[64:34]

Hello. Even today, I have a small temple in Indiana. San Shinji located in a small university town in Indiana. And still San Shinji is the only 1,000 temple in the entire state of Indiana. I made a choice because there was no Zen center there. Then I made that decision. And when I heard there's no Zen center in Indiana, I was happy. I mean, because Uchamurochi always encouraged us to be pioneer. So we need to go frontier. And Indiana, you know, there's In the West Coast and the East Coast, there are already many Zen centers.

[65:39]

But in Indiana, there's none. So I was glad to find such a place and move. But because of that, I think my life is not so easy. But my son is still small. But somehow people come. So I'm not sure if this is successful or not. But I'm sure it's hard. If I locate my temple in California, it might be easier, at least financially. And also, I have to support my family through my activity. And I don't want to make money. So my family has a hard life. Please. Can you help me understand how your mind?

[66:50]

Mind in delusion means we have to think, think and discriminate which is better, which is good and which is bad. And we try to do something because of that we might be happy or successful and we might be sad or painful or I regret. That kind of way of life is in the worldly dharma. And not me, but Dogen calls such a structure of a life as mind in delusion. So this delusion does not necessarily mean bad thing. This is how we actively work toward middle dharmas. You know, before we started to work for the Dharma, we work in this way with our very selfish desire.

[68:01]

But even we have a Dharma desire or a sickness of bodhisattva or Buddha, We have to do things in the same structure when we are deluded. Yeah. So shinmei or mind in delusion is not negative at all. That is what Dogen said about the second expression. And what Dogen said is either situation, Dharma flower turns Dharma flower. That means neither is negative.

[69:03]

This is the way Bodhisattva works within the one Buddha vehicle. So we cannot avoid and we don't need to avoid or escape from this structure of mind in delusion. Well, I wasn't thinking of it as literally escaping, but you were saying how your wisdom grew. You know, you made better choices over time. Still, whether it's a better choice or not... You know, this wisdom to make better choice is a discriminative wisdom. And the fact, Dogen and the Buddha said, is non-discriminative wisdom, no separation. So that's the difference. Please. Can you just do something to it? You can think about it, but it's better to just be in it.

[70:07]

Yeah, that is what Dogen said, just do it. Or she can. Don't take without expectation. We cannot avoid. That is what Dogen is saying. We cannot avoid, and we don't need to avoid for the sake of Dharma. Please. Yeah, I wanted to escape from the world. And I thought I did.

[71:09]

And I was happy. But one time, at that time, I went to New York to do Sesshin each month by hitchhiking. We didn't have money. or taking bus. Taking bus was not so expensive. But I think at that time, each one of us, three of us, received $20 a month from the money we made. Anyway, I think the bus ticket was like $15. And I have $5, and this become my lunch. And at that time, I didn't have driver's license. And so after the session over, I had lunch.

[72:13]

Of course, during session, we have food. After session over, I had a half day free time. So I walk toward the south. The Zen Center was around the middle, near from the Central Park. And I walked to the south, and I walked to a park from where the Statue of Liberty was seen. At that time, I had nothing besides the rope. I had no, I didn't have passport. I didn't have driver's license. I didn't have money. I had nothing. So I thought if I was hit by car in that moment, no one found who this person is.

[73:15]

I'm really no one. When I felt that at that moment, I feel I'm perfectly free. So my escape was completed. And I was really happy. But at the same time, I feel I don't need to escape anymore. Or I should not escape anymore. And from that point, gradually I returned to the world. Or I could. It takes several years. When I became a Ryokan student, I felt I returned to the world. And that was the time I married. And I have children now. I have two children. But to support my family with Dharma activity is as difficult as my life in Massachusetts.

[74:24]

But that is my choice. But now, that is a necessary way of life to, how can I say, as the image of lotus flower from the muddy water. I cannot avoid the muddy water. but I have to make effort to bloom the dharma flower. So this, I think, to me, this is what bodhisattva practice means, what bodhisattva path means. So to do so, you know, I cannot avoid or escape from this worldly dharma of making choice. and good and bad or success or failure structure of life but that is for the sake of blooming the dharma flower so i think the how can i say

[75:37]

interpenetration of these two sides that means discrimination and non-discrimination how can we express reality beyond discrimination through discriminative way of life I think is my koan and also the koan for all boys at birth please If we are careful, we make discrimination and making choice without clinging.

[76:46]

If we are not so careful, you know, always we want to cling to something. And when it works well, I feel happy. And I feel my life is successful. That is clinging. But when I'm careful, I can make discrimination or distinction. Either is OK, but I choose this thing. And in the case of my choice to move to Indiana or Bloomington, I had discrimination. I mean, I thought it's better to move to Indiana than staying in California. So there's a discrimination, and I made a choice. But I didn't have so much clinging. I need to be successful in Indiana. Maybe we can find a positive name, you know, like attachment to love.

[78:14]

Love and attachment, I think, are almost the same thing. But when it works negatively, we call it attachment. But when it works positively, we call it love. So clinging can be the same thing. For example, Dogen clings to his practice of the Zed. But is that clinging? Is there any better, any positive word for this? No matter how hard I continue to do this, that kind of aspiration or determination, is it clinging? There might be some positive word for it. Devotion. devotion or aspiration, devotion, determination. Embrace? Yeah. That allowed me to continue to do this thing. no matter how difficult or if other people think this is not a good thing.

[79:23]

Still, Dogen didn't change his own life, his way of life. In a sense, if we use a negative word, he clung to his own understanding of Dharma and clinging to his particular style of practice. But we don't call that clinging. So, yeah, so determination and clinging, I think the same energy, but function different way, like attachment and love. Does it make sense? It seems to me that what we cling to is the expectation, not the activity. We can have an activity through aspiration, but we don't necessarily dictate the outcome. If we're going for an outcome, however, then that seems to be clinging to me.

[80:26]

So we can live by vow. by aspiration, by devotion. And we accept what outcomes arise from that. And we have faith that making a choice for our precepts is going to be producing good in the world that we don't necessarily control. And that's good enough. So we make offering, but we don't cling to the result. We don't expect outcome. Right. So you may love someone, and that person may change. Yeah, so we can find some better word for this.

[81:32]

Positive. Please. Yeah. for all beings or for the person in front of me, instead of, you know, our attitude, what I can get from that person. You know, if we think, what can I offer to that person to help that person? That is a difference, right? Yeah, I think, you know, for example, Shakyamuni meet with some people, whether monks or lay people.

[82:41]

He offered some wisdom and instruction how to make, how this person, how can I say, free from the problem the person has. You know, this kind of, you know, attitude of offering whatever we can, that is, that is what? Compassion, I think. Please. Mm-hmm. Well, when he was young, right after he came back from China, he first established his monastery near from Kyoto, the capital.

[84:30]

And when he did it, he had some expectation that if he offered a genuine dharma, people would support him. But unfortunately, it didn't work in that way. So she made a choice to escape from Kyoto and to move in the mountains where she could practice without a kind of influence from the world. So that is another choice. So he didn't expect when he moved to Echizen, he didn't expect his monastery could grow as big as the temples in Kyoto. But I think what he wished is to educate or produce very determined, even the number is small, determined Buddhist practitioners.

[85:45]

So I think he had expectation when he offer genuine Dharma and style of practice, at least some small number of people come to him and they could start a genuine Buddhist Sangha. I think so. So he didn't expect huge, successful institution. I think when he was alive, only his assembly could read his writings. There's no way to publish his writings.

[86:49]

His writings was copied by hands. So in order to copy entire Shobo Genzo, a monk needs to visit the temple where a set of Shobo Genzo is stored and ask them to stay at least a few months to copy every day. So it's a very difficult thing. Shobo Genzo was first published in the 19th century. Well, okay, please. One of the stories that's haunted me about Dobin was that he said at the end of his life that his life had been one continuous mistake. Really? I wondered kind of what the tone of that, what the context was. I don't think he said his life was one mistake. You don't think he said that?

[87:51]

I don't think so. I don't think so. He used this expression shoushaku joushaku means mistake after mistake. But he didn't say his life is mistake after mistake as far as I know. Okay. shu, shaku, ju, shaku, shaku is... This is mistake. Shakugo. Please. sincere red heart.

[88:52]

I don't know if we're getting this amount of suchness. Just hoping you get that. Me too. I think I have to give up the idea to finish this entire first clue within this Kenzoian. But I'll try. Thank you.

[90:46]

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