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Good afternoon. We start paragraph 16. From this paragraph until paragraph 22, Dogen discusses about the expression Dharma Flower turning, or we are turned by Dharma Flower. And after that, he discusses about the Shingo Tenhokke, or turning Dharma Flower. When our mind is in realization, we turn the Dharma Flower. So this is about when our mind is in delusion. And I think probably this part is more interesting.


It's closer to our situation. So, let me read paragraph by paragraph. First paragraph. Being turned by the Dharma Flower means that the mind is in delusion. The mind under delusion is just being turned by the Dharma Flower. Therefore, when the mind is in delusion, it is turned by the Dharma Flower.


The essential meaning of this is that even when the ten thousand forms are influenced and seen by mind in delusion, the forms as suchness are being turned by the Dharma Flower. Being turned in this way is not something to be delighted about. And it is not something to anticipate. It is not to be gained. It does not arrive. However, the Dharma Flower's turning is neither two nor three. Because the Dharma Flower's turning is only the one Buddha figure. And because it is the Dharma Flower as forms of suchness,


whether it is turning or being turned, it is the one Buddha figure and the single great matter. Simply put, moment after moment, it is a sincere red heart, which is the only thing we depend on. So, this is about the mind in delusion. 心悲 Ching Mei In Chinese, 心 悲 眉 眉


臀 臀 Shin-Go-Ten-Hokke. And Shin-Go-Ten-Hokke. So this is, as we already read, Hyo Inan's verse about this person's father's condition of reciting the sutra. And when Hyo Inan said to this father, when your mind is deluded, you are turned by the Dharma flower. And when your mind is in realization, you turn the Dharma flower.


And Dogen made a comment on these two expressions. You know, Mei, or in Japanese, Mayoi, and Go is Satori. Mayoi and Satori, you know, Dogen made the definition of what is Mayoi and what is Satori in Genjo-Koan. As I already said, you know, to convene ourselves toward myriad things and carry out practice enlightenment. Or Shu-Shou. Dogen uses Shu-Shou. Shu is practice.


Shou is enlightenment or I transcend verification. But this means enlightenment or realization. That means Shu, in this expression Shu-Shou, Shu is cause and Shou is result. This is a common expression as a Buddhist term. And this is an abbreviation of a little longer expression. That is, Mon, Shi, Shu. I'm sorry, Mon, Shi, Shu-Shou. Mon means to hear and Shi means to think.


And Shu is practice and Shou is evidence or verification. That means, first, this is a process of our practice. When we hear someone's teaching, we think about it. And if we think that is reasonable and that is doable, we try to put that teaching into practice. So when we practice, we, as a result, we find the evidence that teaching is really true. That is what this Shou means. Shou literally means proof. Proof or the word proof or evidence.


So when we hear and think, our understanding is intellectual. But when we practice, we experience what this really meant. And that practice, after we practice, we find the evidence or verification, you know, this teaching is really true. So Shu or practice is a cause and Shou is a result or evidence or verification that this teaching is true. That is the original meaning of this expression, Mon, Shi, Shu, Shou. So this is a process of our study and practice. So the final one is also called Satori.


We really understand through our practice that the teaching is really true. But when Dogen, Dogen Zenji, used this expression, Shu, Shou, he used this as one word. It's not stages or it's not a cause and result. But Shu, Shou as a compound is one word. So as a translation, it's often like such as practice slash enlightenment. That shows this is one word. It's not two separate stages. That means practice and verification or cause and result are one thing.


That means we don't need to wait until we finish or graduate from practice to find the teaching is true. When we practice, that practice is itself evidence or result. So result, cause and result or method and the goal are one thing. That is what Shu, Shou means. Dogen said in Genjo Koan, famous expression of Dogen, Shu, Shou, Ichi, Nyo. Ichi is one. Nyo is thusness. So Shu, Shou is one thusness. Or Shu, Shou, Itto. Ichi is one and Itto is equal.


So I translate one and equal, but some Americans say that is strange. If it's one, we cannot say equal. So this can be translated as one and the same. So practice and realization or verification are one thing. It's not two separate stages. That is what Dogen said. Please. Shu, Shou, Ichi, Nyo. Nyo is Nyo of Nyozei? Yes. So that's... One Nyozei, one suchness. I have a question about Nyozei. I'll wait. I'll wait. OK. So that is what Dogen said. Dogen said Shu, Shou practice realization or practice verification.


Shu, Shou is within the relation between self and myriad dharmas. You know, self and myriad dharmas around us. And he said when we convey, carry ourselves toward myriad dharmas and try to carry out this practice realization, then Dogen said that is delusion. That is the definition of what delusion means. And he said when myriad dharmas come to the self and allow the self to carry out practice realization, it's satori. I think he used Japanese word satori instead of these kanji.


So satori or mayoi or realization and delusion is a matter of direction. Whether we carry ourselves toward myriad of things or myriad of things come to us. Myriad. Pardon? Pardon? Each and everything. Each and everything. Yeah. Pardon? Yeah. That means the subject, the one or person who practice or carry out this practice enlightenment is not this person. But myriad dharmas practice, you know, carry out this practice realization through the self.


It's not my practice. Myriad dharmas practice through this person, through the self. That is realization. But when we take ourselves and try to find what is true, what is not true, what is more beneficial, what makes me more wise or whatever beneficial things we are looking for. Then we approach toward the object and try to find what is good, what is not good. What is false, what is truth. If we approach in that way, that practice enlightenment or that practice is delusion. That is the Dogen definition of satori and mayoi or realization and delusion.


And this is kind of different from the model of delusion and enlightenment. As I said in the... What is the word? I forget. Daijo Kishindo. Daijo Kishindo. Awakening of faith in Mahayana, as I said. You know, this original mind nature is itself enlightenment. But when, you know, the wind of ignorance blows, somehow this mind starts to move. Then this mind separates into two parts. One is subject and another is object.


And subject and object interact and we create all different kinds of realms, from hell to heaven. So, in this model, enlightenment means we stop doing this and return to this original mind without any movement of the wave caused by the ignorance. In this case, enlightenment and delusion is all in this body and mind. So it's not a matter of how we self-relate with others. When our mind is agitated by the wind of ignorance, this body and mind become deluded.


So when we calm down and stop thinking, stop this discriminating way of thinking, then we could return to this mind nature, and that is enlightenment. This is one model of practice to stop thinking. But in Dogen's model, it's not a matter of, you know, whether our mind is agitated or not. Of course, often agitated. But that direction or relation between self and miryadharma, how we relate with others. So, in order to make this change, just stop thinking is not enough. But we have to fix the relation with others.


When we fix our relation with others, then our mind calms down. Because we cannot, we have twisted relation with ourselves and with others. Our mind becomes twisted and distorted and cannot function naturally. So our practice is not to stop thinking. But our practice is, how can I say, fix the twisted relation with others. By just sitting and restore the oneness with all beings. I think that is our zazen. So our zazen is not a practice to stop the wind of ignorance. So our mind or our brain continues to produce all different kinds of illusory thoughts coming and going.


But we don't grasp them and take action based on those deluded thinking. Then, as I said this morning, our brain, like an engine, is still moving and producing all different kinds of illusory thoughts. But we don't take action based on those thoughts. So, as I said, this is like putting the gear into neutral. Then the engine is still moving, but the car doesn't move. Then, you know, we don't make karma. When our clutch gets somewhere, then it's fixed. Then we start to do something based on our illusory thoughts.


Then we create good or bad karmas. But at least in our zazen, we make determination not to take any action based on things happening in our mind. Please. First. What is that? Not only evil, but we don't practice good. But in a sense, this is the best practice. So zazen is before distinction between good and bad. Well, that is the definition of mei and go, or satori and mayoi in Dogen's teaching.


Then I think there is a kind of interesting question. And I don't have an answer yet. The question is... Here, when we are deluded, we try to turn the myriad things. So we are active, and myriad things are positive. Myriad dharmas are passive. We are active. We try to deal with things. And in the case of satori, myriad things are active, and we are passive. Receptive? What's the difference? It's a different connotation. It means taking in, but not...


OK. You can use any English word. But here, when our mind is deluded, we are turned by dharma flower. So dharma flower is active, and we are passive or receptive. And so this is opposite. When dharma flower turns, we are deluded. And when we turn the dharma flower, we are in realization. So, you know, this relation is opposite. And this is, I think, a good question. Why? Why opposite? Why opposite?


Why this relation between sin and dharma flower, and self and myriad dharmas? I'm confused. It kind of puts activity and passivity in one place. What does it mean? I'm trying to say that a little differently. We're not actively grasping all dharmas, but open or receptive. Myriad dharmas come to others. That seems to be passive. But we're actively turning the wheel of dharma at the same time. That's what I'm confused about. That might be my answer to your question. That means, you know, when we act this way, try to deal with all beings and put them into my control,


that is delusion. But when we act in this way, you know, we are turned by the dharma flowers. But when we open ourselves toward myriad things, then, you know, we are passive. But in that passive condition, we turn the dharma flower. Does it make sense? So, the expressions sound opposite, but they are pointing out the same thing. When we open our hands and open toward all beings


and work together with all beings, we are turning the dharma. But when we try to deal with everything based on my idea and put all of them into my control, then, with such activity, we are turned by the dharma. And Dogen said it's not necessarily bad. I mean, when I wrote the book about Genjo Kohan, we think, this is Dogen's... No, I wrote, this is Dogen's definition of delusion and realization. So, we have to make transformation. We stop doing this and practice like this. That is my interpretation in Genjo Kohan.


And I think that is correct understanding. But when he discussed about shinmei, in this expression, this shinmei is not something bad, so we have to stop. That means, you know, as a bodhisattva practice, you know, we... In the very first lecture, I said, you know, in the original or early Buddhist teachings, there are two sets of teachings. One is worldly dharma, in which there is good and bad. And we have to make choice to do good and avoid to do evil. In order to be born in heaven or hell. And another one is going beyond good and bad, so non-duality.


And I said, as a Mahayana Buddhism, this separation between duality and non-duality is a problem. That is the main point of the Lotus Sutra. You know, so worldly dharma and beyond worldly dharma should be integrated. One should be interpenetrated with each other. And that is what one vehicle means. So one vehicle has two sides. One is discrimination. And another is beyond or non-discrimination. So within our practice, we need both. We don't escape from discrimination. And yet we are only within discrimination.


Then we are like the lotus which doesn't go beyond the surface of the muddy water. So we need both. Please. So, let's say I'm a practitioner. I'm practicing receiving all things. And I go downtown. And I see a man beating up a woman. My impulse is to go stop the man from beating the woman. To intervene. And maybe even hit the man to stop him. How does that action integrate with what you're saying here? That is a good question. That is the core. How can we integrate these two? Good and bad. And we have to choose good things to do good things. And avoid unwholesome things.


I avoid evil things. But if evil things are happening, then we act as to stop it. To do so, we need discrimination. But if we only live on that realm, we become... How can I say? Decisive. Device. Device. That means we make a kind of distinction between good and bad. Good is okay, bad is not okay. Therefore, people who do evil things or unwholesome things are bad people. And there is another group of people who are good. And I am good, they are bad. This kind of separation is created when we only stay in this realm.


So we need a kind of going beyond this discrimination to be a bodhisattva. That means even those people who do unwholesome things have some cause and conditions. They are bad people. Because of certain cause and conditions, they do such and such things. That is a kind of common ground. And of course we cannot encourage them to do unwholesome things. We cannot recommend them to continue doing that. But we need to make an effort to stop it. But if we are only in this discriminative level, we have hatred.


And anger against those people. That creates our problem. So we need the common ground where all beings are living together. Then we can be compassionate even to those people who do unwholesome things. So I would hit this man to stop him from hurting a woman. And then I would be kind to both of them. But that is what one Buddha vehicle means. In Lotus Sutra, we should include both worldly dharma that is a discriminative nature.


And we need to choose good things. And yet we also at the same time need the wisdom which goes beyond good and bad. That is what I think this one Buddha vehicle means. Please. How can we save both of them with compassion? I think it is a point of Bodhisattva practice. Instead of, I hate that man but I love this woman.


Then we separate our world. And we might say, you know, these are bad people so we have to eliminate them. Then this world becomes harmonious. You know, that is a realm of Asura, Asura or fighting spirit. Fighting spirit means I have a justice and they are bad. Therefore I have to fight against them and eliminate them. Then this world becomes a good place. And that is not a Bodhisattva. In order to not become Asura, we need this non-discriminative wisdom. I think that is the point of Mahayana teaching. Is there anyone else? Please. When you say go beyond, you mean don't be hung up on your notion of good and bad?


Go beyond means not cling to either side. Or cling to the, how can I say, the distinction or separation. And this is good, that is bad. This clinging. But going beyond, we need to understand that fat is good and fat is bad. Then go beyond. So going beyond does not mean we stop thinking. Okay. Please. In order to, like Tomie said, let beings come forth and experience themselves, does that happen? Do I have to say yes to everything that comes to my life? What I actually know, what I have experienced, does the phenomenon happen? I think at least we need to be open to everyone.


And of course something we have to say, you are not welcome. Or this is something I should do. This is not something I should not do. So that doesn't mean cut off one half. That is what Dogen said in Shobo Genzo Shoakumaksa. Shoakumaksa is not doing evil. In that fascicle of Shobo Genzo he said, When our practice matures, evil becomes something not done, not to be done. It's not my like and dislike. But naturally, evil is not done. Shoakumaksa.


No, evil is not done. Done. P-O-N-E. Not engaged. Not performed. So it's not, how can I say, rejection. But we open the situation with Buddha's insight. We see with compassion. And naturally, for example, when a mother takes care of a baby, mother don't think each time, that is good or bad, but naturally taking care of the life in a positive way. So within mother's practice to take care of baby,


it's not a matter of discrimination. But this is only possible way mother act to protect the baby. Does this make sense? I don't think so. You can say no. Yeah. Sometimes to say no is helpful or beneficial to that person. So this means to deal with kindness and compassion. And kindness and compassion sometimes say no. If you do such a thing, or if I help you doing such a thing, it makes the situation unhealthy.


Then to say no is a compassionate answer, I think. And that is what Buddha said when monks made mistakes. When Buddha said you should not do such a thing, I think Buddha was compassionate. He didn't dislike the monks. So to open does not mean to have to say yes to everything. To say no can be the most compassionate answer in certain situations. Please. When Buddha approached you to learn English, to teach, you said yes. You didn't say no. That decision wasn't discriminating my decision.


Was that kind of like a mother saying yes to her grown-up baby? I don't know. But my problem is I'm not good at saying no. Since my childhood, somehow I have been a good boy. Until I became a teenager. When I became a teenager, I hate this. To be a good boy, instead of doing things from inside of myself, first we have to understand what other people expect from me. And when I understand that, I try to do that. When I became a teenager, I hate that attitude.


So I wanted to say no to everything. For example, my parents or teachers or schools or Japanese society expect me, that was in the 1960s, to work hard and to make money. I hate that. So I said no to that kind of expectation. So I thought I became a bad boy. So I stopped studying hard at school. I often escaped from the classroom and went to the library. Ouch! But that's the way I found Uchamaru's book.


That's the way I found Buddhism. So I escaped from this Japanese society and became a Buddhist monk. That was kind of my way of saying no. But later I found that after I became a monk, I still be a good boy to my teacher and also to Buddha or Buddhist tradition. And when I became around 30, I said that was not right. But in this case, I didn't escape in this time. But until then, I think to be a good monk, I studied Buddhist teachings and I practiced hard. Not hard, but harder than others.


Because I wanted to make sure I'm a good monk. I have to study and practice more than other people. That was not right. And that made my body half broken. You know, I practiced, I devoted my entire life in this practice. And I went to Massachusetts and I worked too hard, physical work. So I had pain on my neck, shoulder, elbow and knees. And that knee problem continues until today. Anyways, I found that was a problem. So this time I didn't escape, but I quit to be a good boy. That means until then, I wanted to live like a dog.


But after that, I quit that. I found that I had to deeply look into my mind and my life. And I found that I don't really want to live like a dog. So after that, I became free from dog. And then, instead of Dogen, Ryokan became my teacher. Ryokan is more relaxed and flexible than Dogen. So after that, I started to read Dogen and I tried to live like Ryokan. Instead of Dogen. So, you know, my tendency of desire to be a good boy continues.


I think I'm still a good boy. But I am not, how can I say, controlled by this desire to be a good boy. When I find I try to become a good boy, I, how can I say, laugh at myself. Anyway, that is the way I became free from my kind of habitual karmic nature. To be a good boy or to be a good monk might be a cause of sickness. That means another side is bad monk and bad boy. So I think I don't want to be a bad boy, I want to be a good monk. This discrimination was the problem.


When I'm free from this discrimination, then I can do whatever I can do. That means my physical condition allows, I do, but I don't need to do what I cannot do. That is okay. I don't need to evaluate me and make sure that I'm a good monk or a good boy. That is a kind of revelation from this good and bad discrimination. So I could be, in a sense, compassionate to myself. Please. I'm confused about these two images in terms of the myriad... When the mind is in delusion, it is turned by the Dharma flower. And that means that the Dharma flower is passive and the mind or we are active.


And in the other... So that, with the other image of the myriad things coming forth, when the myriad things are active, somehow being turned by the flower and the myriad things coming forth... That is my... Yeah, that is my confusion, my question. In Genjo Koan, these expressions came from Huinan. It's opposite. Yeah. So this is our Koan now. Are these contradicting or showing the same thing from different perspectives? And I have no answer yet. Okay, thank you. Well, here we are. Thank you for that.


For what? Thank you for that. For what? What doesn't... Good point, anyway. That was my Koan for many years. So we need to kind of include or... What is the word? Embrace, you know, even something not good in my conception, in my thinking. So we need to be open to all possibilities. But that doesn't mean I can do evil things. Yes? When Shakyamuni Buddha turns the wheel of the Dharma, he doesn't do anything, right? I guess so. He accepts everything, yeah?


I mean, just not non-discrimination. I think so. So it agrees, then, with Genjo Koan and with this... When... When... When we practice enlightenment, we turn the Dharma wheel, it agrees then, right? It's not me. Not my turn? It's not even me. The expression is opposite, right? The expression is opposite. I missed something. Okay. Well, here we are. I forget. Oh, I'm... I think I'm talking about... This thought is mind in delusion. And I said... I'm trying to say there are two kinds of delusion. Two kinds of...


In this model, we try to deal with things. One is really delusion. As we... Before we studied Dharma, Aras Bodhicitta, you know, we become self... We often are self-centered. And we think this is the most important thing. And all other things are the resource or material I can use in whatever way I want to make me happy. That is what delusion means, I think. But even after I Aras Bodhicitta and studied Buddha's teachings, and tried to spread Dharma, not sometime, but we... We need actively do something based on what is good for Dharma in this situation.


So we have to make choice. In order to make choice, we have to make discrimination or distinction. What is good? What is not good? In this situation. So... But we cannot see the result. So somehow we have to make choice and actually do it. So sometimes it's successful, and sometimes not successful. Sometimes it doesn't work. So we have to... When it's successful, we are happy. And when it doesn't work, we feel sad. And yet, we continue. This is still in samsara. So samsara is not necessarily being heaven or hell, as opposed to migration. But when we have some distinction or discrimination, and we have to make choice, then there is success and failure.


And good result, or not so good result. That is, even when we work for the Dharma, we always have this. And this is... in Dogen's expression, made sin in delusion, mind in delusion. That is why, as a bodhisattva, we cannot completely escape the realm of world. That means, you know, when I was sent by Uchiyama Roshi, I lived in Massachusetts. I had to, not me, but three monks, live in a very small, tiny place in the woods of Massachusetts. We didn't speak good English, and we had no money, and none of us had driver's license.


And the only thing we had was a half-built, small house, and wood and trees. That's all we had. We didn't have even water. So first thing we did was cut the trees and clear the land, remove all the stumps. That was hard work. And even I dug a well with hands. We didn't have machines. Only machine we had was a chainsaw. So cutting trees is easy, but pulling out the stump is really hard work. Anyway, that was our choice. And Uchiyama Roshi said, before we went there, don't collect money, and don't collect people.


Just practice, just see for yourself. So we tried to practice in such a situation. So we have to be very creative, and no financial support came from any place. So we had to work to support our practice. And the first thing we did was picking blueberries. There was a blueberry farm near there. But because we didn't have a car, we asked someone to carry the tent near from the blueberry farm. And we lived in the tent for, I think, three weeks in the summer to pick blueberries. You know, that kind of work. You know, that was my choice, our choice.


So there are many possibilities. Not so many, because we are Japanese, without speaking so much English, and without, you know, car. In the woods in western Massachusetts. You know, even to do shopping, we had to walk about one hour to the nearest town. And a few years after, we got a job at a tofu shop, a tofu factory in a town. And it's about 20 miles away from where we lived. So until I got a driver's license, I first walked to the small town for about one hour. And I did hitchhiking. So it takes usually four hours or so to go to the work.


And I worked, I think, from four in the afternoon until 10 in the night as a janitor. And after I finished working, I cleaned the factory. So I couldn't go back home. So I slept in there. And walked to the end of the town and did hitchhiking again. So I returned to Dazendo around noon. So it took me almost 24 hours to work six hours. That kind of work. I was 27, 8, 9. So I was young, strong, and foolish. So I thought I could do anything. And the more I worked, the stronger my body became.


And it worked in 20 years. But right after I became 30, my body said no. That's why I had pain. And we didn't have money to have retreat. That's why I had to go back to Japan. Anyway, that kind of choice is a kind of mind in delusion. Maybe we could make a better choice. But somehow I liked it. I liked that, you know, because I first you know, first motivation for me to become a Buddhist monk was to escape. Escape from this money-making machine. So I was really happy to live in that way in Massachusetts without making


more than enough money and work with nature and just sit. So that was my choice. But that was delusion, I think. But as far as we are practicing, we have to make some decision. To make some decision, we find some choices. And we think this might be better and that might work better. So in such a condition, that means we are always in such a condition, we have to make a decision. Even when our delusion is not to my selfish desire, even when we work for the Dharma, our mind is in delusion. That kind of delusion is something Bodhisattva cannot avoid. Please. Before she said not to collect money,


or collect people, what did you mean by collecting people? Don't make advertisement to collect people. Advertisement? Advertisement, yeah. That means just practice silently, quietly. And if someone comes, just accept. But don't ask people. Okay.


Okay. Okay. Hello.


Hello. Even today, I have a small temple in Indiana. Sanshin-ji located in a small university town in Indiana. And still Sanshin-ji is the only one Soto Zen temple in the entire state of Indiana. I made a choice because there was no Zen center there. Then I made that decision. And when I heard there was no Zen center in Indiana, I was happy. I mean because Uchamaru always encourages us to be pioneers. So we need to go further. And in Indiana, in the west coast and the east coast,


there are already many Zen centers. But in Indiana, there's none. So I was glad to find such a place and move. But because of that, I think my life is also easy. But my Sangha is still small. But somehow people come. So I'm not sure if this is successful or not. But I'm sure it has. If I locate my temple in California, it might be easier. At least financially. And also I have to support my family through my activity. And I don't want to make money. So my family has a hard life. Please. I'm not understanding how,


when you left Massachusetts, it seems like you were really open to a myriad of possibilities. So can you help me understand how your mind was in delusion? Mind in delusion means we have to think. Think and discriminate which is good and which is bad. And we try to do something. Because of that, we might be happy or successful. And we might be sad or painful or I regret. That kind of way of life is in the worldly dharma. And not me, but Dogen calls such a structure of life as mind in delusion. So this delusion does not necessarily mean a bad thing.


This is how we actively work toward myriad dharmas. Before we started to work for the dharma, we worked in this way. With our very selfish desire. But even we have a dharma desire, or a sickness of bodhisattva or Buddha, we have to do things in the same structure when we are deluded. So it sounds like it's always with us. Yeah. So shinmei or mind in delusion is not negative at all. So do we ever cross over, penetratingly, to the other circle? Where we have the satori?


I mean, are we always... That is what Dogen says about the second expression. And what Dogen says is either situation, dharma flower turns dharma flower. That means neither is negative. This is the way bodhisattva works within the one Buddha vehicle. So we cannot avoid, and we don't need to avoid, or escape from this structure of mind in delusion. I wasn't thinking of it as literally escaping, but you were saying how your wisdom grew. You made better choices over time. Still, whether it's a better choice or not... This wisdom to make better choices is a discriminative wisdom.


And what Dogen and Buddha said is non-discriminative wisdom. No separation. So that's the difference. Please. Yeah, that is what Dogen said. Just do it. Washikan. Don't take without expectation. We cannot avoid. That is what Dogen is saying. We cannot avoid, and we don't need to avoid, for the sake of dharma. Please. You were working within your current consciousness, and that uncertainty comes with it,


and maybe that's what delusion is. Making those decisions in an uncertain world. Right. Yeah, I wanted to escape from the world. And I thought I did. And I was happy. But one time, at the time I went to New York to do Sesshin each month, by hitchhiking. We didn't have money. Hitchhiking or taking a bus. Taking a bus was not so expensive. But I think at that time, each one of us, three of us, received $20 a month. From the money we made. Anyway, I think the bus ticket was like $15.


And I had $5, and this became my lunch. And at that time I didn't have a driver's license. And so after the Sesshin over, I had lunch. Of course, during Sesshin, we had food. After Sesshin over, I had a half-day free time. So I walked toward the south. The Zen Center was around the middle, near from the Central Park. And I walked to the south, and I walked to a park from where the Statue of Liberty was seen. At that time, at that time I had nothing besides the rope. I didn't have a passport.


I didn't have a driver's license. I didn't have money. I had nothing. So I thought, if I was hit by a car at that moment, no one would find out who this person is. I really didn't know. When I felt that at that moment, I felt I was perfectly free. So my escape was completed. And I was really happy. But at the same time, I feel I don't need to escape anymore. Or I should not escape anymore. And from that point, gradually I returned to the world. Or I could. It takes several years. When I became a Ryokan student, I felt I returned to the world.


And that was the time I married. And I have children now. I have two children. But to support my family with Dharma activity is as difficult as my life in Massachusetts. But that is my choice. But now, that is a necessary way of life to, how can I say, as the image of a lotus flower from the muddy water. You know, I cannot avoid the muddy water. But I have to make an effort to bloom the lotus Dharma flower. So this, I think, to me,


this is what bodhisattva practice means, what bodhisattva path means. So to do so, I cannot avoid or escape from this worldly Dharma of making choice and good and bad, or success or failure structure of life. But that is for the sake of blooming the Dharma flower. So I think, how can I say, interpenetration of these two sides, that means discrimination and non-discrimination, how can we express reality beyond discrimination through discriminative way of life, I think is my koan,


and also the koan for all bodhisattvas. Please. Does discrimination always involve clinging to the Dharma, or is there discrimination that is... Is the point to try to get to discrimination that is not clinging, or is discrimination always... Ah... If we are careful, we make discrimination and making choice without clinging. If we are not so careful, you know, always we want to cling to something. And when it works well, I feel happy, and I feel my life is successful. That is clinging. But when I'm careful,


I can make discrimination or distinction. Either is okay, but I choose this thing. And in the case of my choice to move to Indiana or Bloomington, I didn't have... I had discrimination. I mean, I thought it's better to move to Indiana than staying in California. So there is a discrimination, and I made a choice. But I didn't have so much clinging. You know, I need to be successful in Indiana. I'm sorry, I have another question. So is clinging a negative thing? Is clinging, like you were saying, a shinae is not a negative thing. Delusion is not a negative thing. That's something to be avoided. To be avoided? Maybe we can find a positive name.


You know, like attachment or love. Love and attachment, I think, are almost the same thing. But when it works negatively, we call it attachment. But when it works positively, we call it love. So, you know, clinging can be the same thing. You know, for example, Dogen clings to his practice of Zazen. But is that clinging? Is there any better, any positive word for this? You know, no matter how hard I continue to do this, that kind of aspiration or determination, is it clinging? There might be some positive word for it. Devotion. Devotion or aspiration. Devotion. Determination. Embrace. Embrace? Yeah. That allows me to continue to do this thing,


no matter how difficult, or if other people think this is not a good thing. Still, you know, Dogen didn't change his own life, his way of life. In a sense, if we use a negative word, he clings to his own understanding of Dharma and clings to his particular style of practice. But we don't call that clinging. So, determination and clinging, I think the same energy, but function in a different way, like attachment and love. Does it make sense? Okay, Chris? It seems to me that what we cling to is the expectation, not the activity. We can have an activity through aspiration,


but we don't necessarily dictate the outcome. If we're going for an outcome, however, then that seems to be clinging to me. So, we can live by vow, by aspiration, by devotion, and we accept what outcomes arise from that, and we have faith that making a choice for our precepts is going to be producing good in the world that we don't necessarily control. And that's good enough. So, Dogen, we make offerings, but we don't cling to the result. That's right. We don't expect outcome. Right. I think also clinging connotes not wanting something to change. So, if there's an openness, it's kind of the same thing you're saying. If there's an openness to the result, and so you may love someone, and that person may change in their world, that person may die,


but if you don't have that attachment to it always being the same, I think we do need a different word. That's not clinging. Yeah. So, we can find some better word for this. Positive clinging. Positive clinging. Please. For all beings or for the person in front of me, instead of, you know, what I can get from that person. You know, if we think, what can I offer to that person to help that person? That is a difference. Right?


Yeah, I think, you know, for example, Shakyamuni met with some people, whether monks or lay people. He offered some wisdom and instruction on how to make, how this person, how can I say, free from the problem the person has. You know, this kind of, you know, attitude of offering whatever we can. That is, that is fact. Compassion, I think. Please. Not something that he clung to


in terms of the result he wanted. And what was the kind of reception to his teaching, you know, this very, the Lotus Sutra being so important, for example. You know, he was, he was someone who could stand a lot of pushback. Yes. Not concerned. Well, when he was young, right after he came back from China, he first established his monastery near from Kyoto, the capital. And I think he did it, he had some expectation that if he offered the genuine Dharma,


people support him. But unfortunately it didn't work in that way. So he made a choice to escape from Kyoto and to move to the, in the mountains. And where he could practice without a kind of a influence from, from the world. So that is another choice. So he didn't expect, when he moved to Echizen, he didn't expect his monastery could grow as big as the temples in Kyoto. But I think what he wished is to, how can I say, to educate or produce a very determined,


even the number is small, determined Buddhist practitioner. So I think he has, I think he had expectations when he offered genuine Dharma and style of practice, at least some small number of people come to him and they could start a genuine Buddhist Sangha. OK? I think so. So he didn't expect, you know, huge, successful institution. Or was there a minor, I want to say, readership or commentary? I think when he was alive, only people, only in his assembly could read, read his writings.


There's no way to, you know, publish his writings. His writings was copied by hands. So in order to copy entire Shobo Genzo, a monk needs to visit the temple where a set of Shobo Genzo is stored and ask them to stay at least a few months to copy every day. So it's a very difficult thing. Shobo Genzo was first published in the 19th century. OK, please. I don't think,


I don't think he said his life was one mistake. I don't think so. My goodness, that's a common story. Someone said it, someone said it. I don't think so. He used this expression, sho shaku ju shaku, means mistake after mistake. But he didn't say his life is mistake after mistake, as far as I know. sho shaku ju shaku, shaku is this, means mistake. shaku in, shaku go. Please. I would love to be getting his tomorrow reception.


I was hoping to get one. Me too. I think I have to give up the idea to finish this entire first group within this Genzo era. But I'll try. OK. Thank you.


Buddha's way. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are closed. Thank you.


Thank you.