Good morning, everyone. Yesterday afternoon, I started to read the text of Hokketen Hokke, and I started to read this text from the story or conversation between the Huinan, the sixth ancestor of Chinese Zen, and one of his monks. And because Hui Nan said we should study what is written in Lotus Sutra on the basis or context of our ji-shin, the mind of the self. So I started to talk about the mind, what this mind Hui Nan or the Six Ancestors mentioned. And I quoted Dogen's fascicle of Shobo Genzo entitled, The Mind is Itself Buddha.

[01:11]

And there, Dogen introduced one understanding of the mind, which Dogen doesn't agree with. that is called Seneca's idea of mind. And I received a request, I should talk more about Seneca. Is that all of your desire? Well, Seneca is a person's name. who appeared in the Mahayana Parinirvana Sutra. And this person was not a Buddhist. And this person talked, discussed something about something with Shakyamuni. And what Seneca said is very common idea of not exactly Hinduism, but Hindu teaching before Shakyamuni.

[02:23]

And that is about Atman. I think you know what Atman is. Atman sometimes translated as soul. And Atman is pure, without any defilement, and which doesn't change, and which is existing in our body and mind. And this soul, or Atman, is like an owner of the house. This is a house. And this Atman is like an owner. And according to Hindu teaching or Brahmanism teaching, this Atma is pure and undefiled. And yet somehow this Atma is imprisoned within this body. And this body is a source of the problem, source of...

[03:27]

delusions and we become deluded and we do many mistakes. So in that teaching, how to release this Atman from this flesh or body that is a source of evil is the goal. And around the time of Shakyamuni, there are two methods to allow the Atman release from the bad influence from this flesh that is a source of evil. One is meditation. Meditation. And the second is very severe ascetic practice. The idea is by the practice of meditation we calm down our mind, then this soul can be free from the deluded thinking.

[04:39]

And another method, ascetic practice, is by weakening the energy of our body, our physical energy. by, you know, not eating or, you know, those two practices, what Fat Shakyamuni did in the very beginning, right after he left his father's palace. So Fat Shakyamuni's practice as ascetic practice is he didn't eat except a few grains of I'm not sure I saw something else. And he stopped breathing until almost he died. Or he did many other very strict, strict ascetic practice. And he found that kind of practice didn't work.

[05:45]

So he quit. And he received food from a girl in the village named Sujata. And he ate something and recovered some energy, physical energy, and started to sit under the Bodhi tree. I don't have much time to talk about Buddha's life. But after he attained, he became Buddha, our teacher, what he taught is anatman. Anatman means no atman. That means atman doesn't exist. So this is the difference between Buddha's teaching and Hindu teachings or a teaching that was common in India around the time of Shakyamuni.

[06:46]

So as a non-Buddhist Indian person, to talk about Atman is a very common thing, ordinary thing. He just expressed his understanding of his belief But because Shakyamuni negate the Atman, the idea of Atman, if Buddhists talk about Atman as a part of their theory and practice, then that is called a non-Buddhist. or a mistaken idea. Because, you know, I think you know the three or four dharma seals. Three dharma seals is everything is impermanent and everything has no self. That is anatman.

[07:52]

And everything is suffering. Those are called the three dharma seals. And four dharma seal means, in addition to those three, the final one is nirvana. Nirvana is silin, jakumetsu, jakujo, silin, and pure. Those are called three or four dharma seals. And in this case, seals means stamp. Stamp means when you write or make calligraphy or paint. In China and Japan, we put a stamp of the person's name. That means if we find the stamp of certain person's name, then it's certified this calligraphy or painting is done by this person.

[08:58]

So this seal or stamp is similar signature in American culture. That means if we find those three or four points in someone's teachings, then that teaching can be called Buddhism. All four. If lack of something, or if something against those four points is included in that teaching, that cannot be called Buddhism. That is the criterion of what is Buddhism and what is not. I have trouble understanding sometimes. I follow the Chakruni Buddha's teaching of Adatman versus Adatman of this time and in today. But then when the idea of Buddha or mind being eternal, to me, it just seems as though it's parsing words.

[10:05]

To me, too. That's a very interesting and important point, but very confusing. Please. Pardon? Seneca, can you spell that name? Seneca. I'm sorry, I don't have answer to your question. It's a big question and I have to write one book about that question. So that means nothing permanent that doesn't change. is within ourselves. And that something which doesn't change is almost like a corner of these five skandhas.

[11:12]

What the Buddha said is, there are only five skandhas, that is rupa, rupa or form. In our life, in the case of human beings, this rupa or form means our body. material, and other four, perceptions, sensation, perception, formation and consciousness. You are familiar with these five from the Heart Sutra. And the Heart Sutra said, all those five skandhas are empty. But what Buddha said is five skandhas, there are only five skandhas, nothing else. especially this something that can be the owner of five skandhas. That means that is, in another word, Atman. There's no such thing as called Atman that is permanent.

[12:15]

and owner of this body and mind, and operator of this body and mind. That is one of the definitions of Atman or God. In Chinese, Atman is translated as God. Ga is usually translated into English as self. So anatoma is translated as no self. But somehow we think there is something which is owner of this body and mind. Well, first of all, the definition of Atman or God in Buddhism is in Chinese or Japanese, .

[13:18]

Joy is permanent, which doesn't change, always existing in the same way. And it is one. So Atman is only one. There's no two Atman in this person, only one Atman for one person. And that shu means the host or owner or lord. Make sense? So this Atman or self or god is permanent, never change, and only one, and the owner of these five skandhas. And sai means to operate. Operate? Like a driver. Operator. Operator. So the Atman is the owner of these five skandhas and operates these five skandhas, our body and mind.

[14:42]

And that is only one, and that never changes. This is the definition of Atman in Buddhism. And what Buddha said, what Buddha taught, was there's no such thing. Please. Do you mention Samhita because it was an important influential teacher at the time? No, because Dogen quote . Please. So the concept of Buddha nature is atma or anatma? That is the problem. That is really a problem, and I don't know. I mean, please? A few moments ago you said, in Buddhism there's nothing permanent within the self, and I think you were referring to the body and mind.

[15:44]

Do you also say there's nothing permanent beyond this? Right. That is what Buddha said. Only five skandhas. And the five skandhas are impermanent. And it's a collection of five elements. And it's always changing. And sooner or later, it's dispersed. Even in Pali Canon, Buddha sometimes referred to the deathless, to safety, refuge, peaceful realm. Actually, that is what Buddha said when he made his decision to start to teach. Now the gate of deathlessness is open. Deathlessness. Without death. So what this deathlessness or no death means is another big question. And also in the Lotus Sutra, the dharmakaya, shakyamuni, is eternal.

[16:55]

What this means. That is a big question, and I don't have any answer. I'm kind of questioning what this means. I'm still in the process of finding the answer to this question, so I'm not Buddha yet. That is the Buddha's teaching of anatman, no self. And as Yuko-san asked, what is Buddha nature then? The concept of Buddha nature doesn't exist when the Lotus Sutra was produced. there's no such concept of Buddha nature before Nagarjuna.

[18:00]

Nagarjuna never used the word Buddha nature. But this idea of Buddha nature appeared between Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu. Nagarjuna lived, it said, between 150 to 50. We don't really exactly know when he lived, but early Mahayana sutras were made before Nagarjuna, including the Lotus Sutra. And Vasubandhu was another very important great master, Buddhist master. belongs to so-called Yogacara school. Nagarjuna's school is called Majamika. And another school in Mahayana in India was called Yogacara.

[19:06]

And Vasubandhu was the most important teacher or master in Yogacara school. And he lived about fourth to fifth century And between Nagarjuna and Vipassana, there are many other Buddhists, Mahayana, etc., were produced. And one of them was a sutra named Tathagatagarbha Sutra. This is the first sutra mentioned about Tathagatagarbha. And Tathagatagarbha is another name for Buddha nature. What was the sutra that first mentioned that? Tathagatagarbha Sutra. And according to this sutra, you know, in the very beginning of this sutta, you know, somehow Buddha using his mighty power, his might, somehow many beautiful flowers, lotus flowers appeared in the sky.

[20:23]

And yet, soon after that, the lotus flower became decayed and became ugly. Beautiful flower became ugly and smelled very bad. But within that rotten flower, there was a Buddha. That is the first image of Buddha nature. described in the first sutra about the Tathagatagarbha. This means we are rotten flowers, full of delusions. But within this rotten lotus flower, there is a golden Buddha there. And this Golden Buddha doesn't change. But it doesn't say this is the owner of five skandhas. But this is a baby of Buddha.

[21:31]

Tathagata Garbha means womb, womb and embryo or baby. So this Buddha nature or Tathagata Garbha originally considered as a baby of Buddha. So even though we are deluded and we make so many mistakes, but still all human beings, all living beings have golden Buddha. within us, no matter how rotten and smells bad we are. That is a very original idea of Buddha nature or Tathagatagarbha. And I think only Mahayana Buddhists need this concept of Devi Buddha. And this is considered as a possibility to become Buddha.

[22:34]

You know, Buddhists before Mahayana didn't need such concept because no one, no Buddhist thought they could become Buddha. You know, after Mahayana, Mahayana people think we are all bodhisattvas when we allow the bodhicitta, same aspiration as Smeda did in Buddha's past life. But when we start, we allow bodhicitta and started to practice, we don't feel we can become Buddha. It's very difficult to have a confidence that we can become Buddha. Because we see, when we honestly and closely see ourselves, the delusion is so deep. Even delusion is ourselves.

[23:38]

How can these deluded beings become Buddha? So it's really difficult, even though we allow bodhicitta and try to practice as bodhisattva and try to walk the bodhisattva path to become Buddha. And it's said, you know, from the time we allow bodhicitta until we reach the goal, that is Buddhahood, it takes more than forever. numberless karpas. So I think Bodhisattvas or Mahayana Buddhists need some kind of a guarantee. Even though we are such a deluded people, still if we continue to practice following what Buddha taught, then sooner or later, probably much later, but 100% guaranteed that we become Buddha.

[24:47]

I think that is the origin of the idea of Buddha nature. So Buddha nature is nothing to do with the idea of Atman that is the owner of five skandhas. owner and operator of the five skandhas. But both of our Mahayana Buddhists need this, you know, guarantee. You know, if we continue to practice, sooner or later we become Buddha. Please. I'm just wondering if, I mean, that sounds a lot like the prediction that the Buddha made to people in the assembly whom he first condemned, you know, first said they're not, and then predicted they would become Buddha. That's a way of encouraging it. Yes, when Buddha was alive, we could receive prediction from Buddha, but because Buddha is gone, who could give us prediction?

[25:50]

So I think they feel they need some kind of a confidence or a faith or trust that no matter how much uh deluded we are and how deep our delusion could be you know if we practice study the buddha's teaching and practice then sometime in the future you know it's sure we can become buddha uh excuse me You talk about becoming, practicing, and other words like that. The Buddha-nature is an activity. It's a dynamic, moving activity, not a thing like that. That is Dogen's idea of Buddha-nature.

[26:57]

For Dogen, Buddha-nature is not something within us and which doesn't change. But that's why in Shobogen's Buddha-nature, Dogen said Buddha-nature is impermanence. Well, where shall I go from here? Oh, so from very beginning of, you know, this idea of Buddha nature, what Tathagatagarbha was created, there are kind of questions or argument. What is the difference between this Buddha nature and another The point of Buddha-nature is like a golden Buddha statue covered with dirt. And it said, whether we are deluded or enlightened, or even after we become Buddha, this Buddha-nature doesn't change.

[28:02]

So Buddha-nature is permanent. So the question from other people about this theory, is what's the difference between Buddha nature and Altman? You know, Buddha nature is not part of five skandhas, because five skandhas are all impermanent, and coming and going. But it's said Buddha nature doesn't change. Then what is this, this strange thing? That is the question. So the people who created this theory have to argue back. And they said Buddha nature is not Ataman. But still, this is another endless discussion. And it continues. Continue to the time of

[29:06]

I talked yesterday, 9-0-8-2. The idea of an Atman, was it something that would leave the body? Yeah. Atman is imprisoned in this body. When this body died, the Atman go to another body. And that is what reverse means. So, what is Buddha-nature if Buddha-nature is not Atman is a long-lasting discussion without final answer. And that discussion continues until the time of 9082 and even Dogen, Dogen's time, and even today. Please, you have something to say? is more of an intellectual nature, or was there any specific aspect of practice which people felt like they were seeing out?

[30:22]

Why is it not good to teach at once? I mean, is there any major advantage in the practice for people who, like, for people in the South, for example, where people have different knowledge, different means, if they believe in something like this, right, I think that is a good question to Buddha. Why Buddha negate the Atman? There must be some point Buddha need to mention. And I think the point is For Shakyamuni, there's no certain fixed thing. Everything is a collection of different elements. That's why even though our life is suffering, suffering can be, how can I say, ceased.

[31:27]

If there's something fixed, then there's no way we become released from this way of life, because everything is coming and going as a temporary condition. When we change the condition, we can be released. from that way of life. I think that is Shakyamuni's point when he negates the teaching of the Atman. OK, please. I just wanted to say that, so Atman comes from the Vedantic philosophy. And in that philosophy, Atman is the same with God, Brahman. So for me, that's a huge difference, because you're taking the idea of God out. And atma is never negative in Hindu teachings. For example, the Gandhi is called Mahatma Gandhi.

[32:36]

This Mahatma means maha-atma. That means great person. So atma... has been never negative concept in Hindu teachings. Only Buddha and only Buddhism that negate Atman. So Buddhism is something strange in the context of Indian or Hindu spirituality. Buddha was strange person. Why he had negate Atman? Atma is so important and good thing. But because we are Buddha's students, somehow we have to accept fat Buddha thought as a true dharma. That is our problem. Please. Because of what I've been wanting to say that

[33:42]

Within that school, it's believed that the only difference, really, between the atma and Brahman is misidentification of the body and mind. And Brahman's not God. It's just pure consciousness, which is very similar in some of the traditional teachings to the notion of . So I sometimes wonder very much about the difference between the understanding of atma and Brahman and . Yeah, because I don't have much knowledge about Hinduism, so I cannot tell. But I'm not sure. If I study more about Hinduism, maybe Atman and non-Atman can be the same meaning, same thing, only negative and positive expression. But I don't know. But because Buddha said no Atman, and that is one of the three or four dharma seiyus, and if Atman is there, then that cannot be considered as a Buddhist teaching.

[34:53]

That is a kind of a loose within Buddhism. In the context of Buddhism, Atman, I think, is created because we think. Our thinking, I think, needs something which doesn't change. you know, five skandhas, body and mind. And when I was born, my body was not like this, much smaller. And my mind doesn't work so well. But that was me. So 67 years ago, I was a baby. And 50 years ago, I was a teenager.

[35:57]

And I have been going through this process of changing. I become from baby to boy and teenager and young adult and middle-aged person, and now I am an older person. I have been changing. But as far as we use the word or language, I have to say, I was a baby. I was a teenager. So, you know, the conditional body and mind are different in each stage. Not only each stage, but each day or each moment. this body and mind are changing. But if we don't have one word that can point out this entire process as me or I, then we cannot even talk about the change.

[37:03]

If I say, I go through this change, this I doesn't change. But this I that doesn't change goes through the process of changing, right? So this I, this concept of I, is the, I think, origin of the idea of Atman, or soul, something, or kind of identity. even though five skandhas are always changing, but there's some identity which doesn't change. So this I is a production of our thinking mind. That means concept. But somehow we reify this concept of I, and we think this I is because I use this body and mind. Now I use my mouth to speak.

[38:07]

So I'm using my part of my body and part of my mind. So it's kind of a natural thing. This eye is owner of this five skandhas and operator of this five skandhas. But this eye is the production of five skandhas. At least that is what Buddha said. You know, maybe I have to finish this. In Shobo Genzo Hotsubo Daishin, Dogen talks about impermanence. And he said, when we are at bodhicitta, Buddha's eternal life appeared within this impermanence.

[39:15]

And at the end of this first Kuru Hotsubodai Shin, Dogen said about Mara. What is Mara? And he quote Nagarjuna's definition of Mara. And Nagarjuna said, there are four kinds of mala. Mala is something which prevents us to be enlightened. Mala was Buddha. Buddha conquered the mala, subdued the mala when he became enlightened. And Nagarjuna said, there are four kinds. One is our delusion. And the second is death. Death is Mara. Death. And the third is five skandhas. These five skandhas are Mara. And the fourth is Mara as a celestial being or heavenly being.

[40:18]

That is the, you know, Mara appears in the story, Jataka story. You know, Mara, when Buddha was sitting, Mara came, attacked Shakyamuni with his armies. That is a kind of a story. So Nagarjuna said, in Buddhist scriptures, there are those four kind of Mara. But he said, as a reality, only one. Mara is only one. And that is five skandhas. So according to Nagarjuna, Mara is five skandhas. And I thought this is Nagarjuna's interpretation. But actually, Shakyamuni himself said, Five Scandals are Mara in Pali Canon, Pali Nikaya.

[41:23]

Yes. I can tell you where it appeared when I have that note. And another part of Pali Nikaya, Buddha said, Buddha said about his condition before and after he was enlightened. And he said, five skandhas has three aspects. One is five skandhas give us happiness or delight. But second is five skandhas is suffering. And the third point is, therefore, we need to, how can I say, liberate it, release or depart from five skandhas.

[42:31]

And he understood that, but until he really become free from five skandhas, that is a Mara, he said, I didn't say I was enlightened or I became Buddha. So five skandhas, five skandhas, that means his own body and mind was Mara. but he conquered or subdued his five scandals, his Mara. But the important point is he didn't kill the Mara. He didn't kill. Kill. That means Mara lived together with Buddha. So Mara appeared sometimes in Buddha's life. Even right before his death, Mara visited Buddha. And when we studied Four Noble Truths, the first noble truth is truth of suffering.

[43:45]

Everything is suffering. And according to Buddhist teaching, there are eight kinds of sufferings. First four are shoro-byo, birth, aging, sickness, and dying, or death. And next three are something like, we have to meet with people we don't like. Meet people we don't like. And we have to separate from people we love. That is second. And third is we cannot gain, we cannot get things we want. Those are first seven sufferings we experience. So I think all of us experience those seven. And the final kind of suffering is kind of unique.

[44:51]

Not unique, but different from the first seven. That is, five skandhas are suffering. Yeah. In that case, five skandhas is called pancha, Upadana, skandhas. And upadana means attachment or clinging. That means five skandhas attach themselves to themselves. That means five skandhas attach to this idea of I. That is a suffering. So those kind of concrete suffering is happening because of the quality of five skandhas.

[45:58]

Because five skandhas attach themselves to five skandhas. So what Buddha taught was only five skandhas. There's no such I who suffer. Five skandhas attach themselves to five skandhas and five skandhas suffer. So suffering is there, but no one suffers. Right? So important point is take this upadana out. Five skandhas simply become five skandhas. That is a release from clinging to five skandhas. Five skandhas become free from five skandhas, free from attachment or upadana to themselves.

[47:01]

That is liberation. And if we understand what Buddha taught in this way, and we read the very first sentence of the Heart Sutra, I think what Buddha taught and what Heart Sutra said is exactly the same thing, right? I think all of you know the Heart Sutra, no? Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, when deeply practicing prajna paramita, clearly see the emptiness of five skandhas and saved from suffering. So when we see five skandhas as empty, means nothing to cling or attach. So we open our hand. we release from, not we, but five skandhas are released from this clinging to the five skandhas.

[48:11]

That is what happens when Avalokiteshvara sees the emptiness of five skandhas. Then that is the time of being free from suffering. So what Buddha taught about the truth of suffering, And the Heart Sutra says, Avalokiteshvara, when deeply practicing prajnaparamita, clearly sees the five skandhas and relieves from suffering. So when we see five skandhas, that is a problem. You know, this sentence, first sentence of the Heart Sutra said, Avalokiteshvara, when deeply practicing prajna paramita, clearly see the five skandhas are empty.

[49:15]

Within this sentence, there is a person whose name was Avalokiteshvara. And there are objects. that of that person who is seeing, that are five skandhas. And this person using a kind of a tool, prajna parameter or wisdom is a kind of a tool, like a reading glass. You know, I cannot read what is written on this paper without this. But when I put my reading glass, I can read, I can see and read. And we usually think wisdom is something like reading glass. Without this tool or device, we cannot see what this really is. But because of the aid of this thing, I can clearly see five standards are empty.

[50:16]

That is what wisdom means. So wisdom, in our common understanding, is like a device or tool, like a hearing aid or a reading glass. So with these two, our variopletation model could clearly see the emptiness of 5S canvas. But this sentence is really saying so. This is not a mistaken understanding. But if we understand, read and understand this first sentence of the Heart Sutra in this way, we completely miss the point of what the people who made Heart Sutra wanted to say. Because first of all, the heart sutra wanted to say there's no such person whose name was Avalokiteshvara beside five skandhas. So Avalokiteshvara is five skandhas. And prajna is also five skandhas.

[51:21]

And emptiness is five skandhas. So everything there, all things there is simply five skandhas. And then five skandhas simply being five skandhas. without a kind of a separation between five skandhas as subject and five skandhas as object. That is when Avalokiteshvara sees the emptiness of five skandhas. So Avalokiteshvara disappears, and five skandhas as objects disappear. And this is simply one thing. That is when we are released from the sufferings, please. This might relate to Sean's question that was deferred, but it seems to me that we can hear these words, that the five skandhas are this or that, but the key element that you just mentioned is that they're only words until we see those words through the activity of practicing Prajnaparamita.

[52:35]

Correct. So we can practice prajnaparamita and don't need words at all. So in the case of Dogen's teaching, prajnaparamita is our zazen, not what we think about that five skandhas. We also say that zazen is more than our idea or our form of zazen. Dazen is what we do using our body and mind, five skandhas. And in Dogen's expression, our dazen is dropping of body and mind. Dropping of body and mind means five skandhas. Five skandhas are body and mind. So Dogen's expression, dropping of body and mind, that is his Dazen, is exactly the prajnaparamita. So that is one of the threads I found from the Shakyamuni's teaching, Mahayana Buddhist teaching, like the Heart Sutras teaching, and Dogen's teaching.

[53:49]

There's one thread which doesn't change. That is, five skandhas cling to five skandhas. Then five skandhas are mara. But when five skandhas see the emptiness of five skandhas, as Dogen said in Shobogen's Makahani Haramitsu, five skandhas are five instances of prajna. Five instances of prajna wisdom. Five instances of prajna. That's what Dogen said. So, you know, there's a transformation. Five skandhas as mara to five skandhas as prajna or even as Avalokiteshvara. You know, this transformation is what, I think, what Buddha experienced under the Bodhi tree.

[54:53]

That means he released from upadana or clinging to five skandhas. And the five skandhas simply become five skandhas. That is, five skandhas reveal its emptiness. And that is how Buddha started to teach and live as a teacher. Please. How does this word kundaya relate to what you're describing now? That's a big question. Freedom, as I said, literally means the heart as a part of our body. I need to talk more to answer your question. What is free dhaya? I mean, free dhaya, as I said yesterday afternoon, free dhaya is used as another name of ta-ta-ta, or suchness, or thusness, or the reality itself.

[56:07]

That is another point we need to think or discuss. Please? Is the skandhas not clinging to skandhas? Is that chicken? Skandhas. Not clinging to skandhas. Would that be that insight that you talked about yesterday? Insight. Chicken. Buddha's insight. Yeah, I think so. Buddha's insight is to see the emptiness of five skandhas. And not seeing emptiness of five skandhas is not thinking, but is, as Dogen said, it should be practiced. When we think five skandhas are empty, this is still thinking. We think about the five skandhas as object. In that sense, in that case, there is a separation between person who is seeing five skandhas.

[57:10]

Does it make sense? Please. I have a question on your definition of suffering, that everything is suffering. And I've always heard it differently, more like suffering exists in the world, that not necessarily everything is suffering. I'm sorry, but that is fact volatile. Everything is suffering. In that case, as Buddha said, everything is suffering. That means, of course, we experience some very painful, sad things, and sometimes we have happiness and joy and delight. That is how we experience within our life. So our life is, you know, one expression is our life is like a rope. You know, suffering or pain and happiness come together.

[58:19]

But according to Buddha, that is suffering. Does it make sense? That means we cannot control. We cannot have satisfaction because we cannot control. We always want to have only happiness and delight and success, only positive side of our life. But positive side of our life and negative side come together. That's why we cannot satisfy, we cannot have complete satisfaction. Sometimes we feel like heavenly beings, but it changes. The next moment we may fall into hell. So that is what samsara or transmigration means. So if only one thing, like suffering or happiness,

[59:26]

then we don't need such a practice, such a teaching. There's no other possibility. But because these two sides are always together, then we only want to have one side, but another side always come together. That's why our life is dissatisfactory. That is what Shakyamuni said, everything is suffering. In this case, within this everything, happiness, success, delight, everything positive is included. So this life as a whole consists of positive and negative. is suffering. Does it make sense? OK, well, now it's 11.05.

[60:34]

Can I return to Dogen? Not yet Dogen. So yesterday afternoon I started to talk about ji-shin, the mind of the self, Huynan mentioned. What Huynan said is this mind of the self, ji-shin, self-mind, is Buddha's darshan, is the one great matter in the Lotus Sutra. So I started to talk about then, what is this mind? And I start to talk about one idea of mind Dogen didn't agree. And not only Dogen, but Nanyo Echu also did agree.

[61:36]

And that mind, that interpretation of mind, spread, taught and spread in the South. Southern Zen groups at the time of, a little after Hunan. And the monk from the South summarized that teaching, Southern teaching of Zen to this Zen master, Nanyo Echu. Then Nanyo Echu said, that is non-Buddhist teaching. That is not Buddhist. The teaching of Seneca. That is not different from the teaching of Atman. Then this monk from the south asked 9082, then what is the mind in your teaching or in your understanding?

[62:39]

Then 9-0-8 just said, the mind is fences, walls, tiles, and pebbles. Fences, walls, tiles, and pebbles. Dogen often used this expression. And then the monk from the south said, those are insentient. Those are insentient beings. How insentient beings can understand dharma and have Buddha nature? This question came from the teaching about Buddha-nature in the Mahayana Parinirvana Sutra. Buddha-nature, only living beings, only sentient beings have Buddha-nature.

[63:41]

No insentient beings, such as fences, walls, tiles and pebbles, don't have Buddha-nature. So this monk kind of criticized Naio Echu, your teaching or understanding is different from what is said in the Parinibbana Sutra. Then this person, Naio Echu, started to say, incented beings can understand dharma. not only understanding, but even preaching, expanding the Dhamma. You know, that is the original origin of the idea of instant and beings expand Dharma. And Dogen wrote another chapter of Shobo Genzo entitled Mujo Seppo, Instant and Beings Expanding Dharma.

[64:43]

So, you know, this is a very long conversation of Nanyo Echu, and this one monk from the south. But this long conversation seems very important to Dogen. Dogen got a very important inspiration. Later, he wrote in Shobu Genzo that his understanding of Sokshin Zebu's mind is itself Buddha. And also, Mujo Seppo, incendent beings, expound Dharma. And incendent beings include those fenced walls, tiles, and pebbles. And that is the origin or source of Dogen's teaching about keisei sanshoku, that is, sound of valley stream and colors of mountains.

[65:51]

They are Buddha's voice and Buddha's body. So that came from one conversation, one set of teaching of 9082. So this is very important teaching for Dogen, and this teaching about all transcendent beings expanding Dharma. is a kind of, how can I say, opposition of the idea of the mind or mind-nature that is permanent, that is inside of ourselves. And that is a subject of seeing, hearing, sensing and knowing. That is what, according to this bank, that is what was taught in the South.

[66:54]

So Dogen agreed with 9082 about this point. And I'd like to introduce another teaching from the South. This is a saying by Mazu. Mazu Daoi, or Baso Douitsu in Japanese. So, Naio-Echi was Shuinan's disciple.

[67:57]

And Mazu is a disciple of Nangaku Ejo, who was also a disciple of Hainan. So Mazu Daoi is a kind of a Dharma nephew of Nangaku Ejo. And he, or Mazu, taught in the South. And his teaching is very important, Zen teaching. And no one questions the authenticity of Ma's teaching as a Zen teaching. So this is a kind of a mainstream teaching of Zen. And so this is from recorded saying by Mazu or Baso, Baso Goroku.

[69:02]

Yeah, Baso is Japanese, Mazu is Chinese pronunciation. He said in the Dharma discourse, Baso said, The great Master Mazu preached or expanded, if you want to recognize the mind. So this is a dharma discourse about the mind by Basso or Mazu. That which is speaking is your mind. That which is speaking. So now I'm speaking. What is speaking? Is that my five standards?

[70:12]

But he said, that which is speaking is your mind. The mind is called the Buddha, and this mind is called the Buddha. So this mind is sin, is Buddha. The mind is called the Buddha, and it is also the Dharma body. And this is the dharma body. That means this mind, you know, that is what is speaking now. Do you think this is dharma body? But according to Basso, this something which is speaking is Buddha and dharma body.

[71:17]

And that is a mind. So it is also the Dharma body, Dharma body Buddha of true form, and is called the way. And this is way or Tao, way in Buddha way. And this way is a translation of body or awakening. The sutra says, the Buddha has numerous names in the three great countless karpas, which are named according to conditions and situations. So Buddha has many different names, but these are all the names of the Buddha, the mind. And that is the name of this something which is speaking. For example, the money pearl.

[72:22]

Money. Do you know money? In this translation it said pearl, but usually this is jewel. Money jewel. Money jewel is transparent. But this transparent jewel changes the color depending upon where this transparent money is placed. When it's placed on the red paper, it becomes red. And when it's placed on the black paper, it becomes black. So this jewel is transparent. And yet, depending upon the situation or condition, this transparent jewel looks like with certain particular color. And this mind is the same with this jewel.

[73:29]

That means You know, this thing called mind experiences different things. And sometimes we experience a negative thing, then this jewel becomes black. When we are happy, this jewel sounds become like a, you know, I don't know what is a happy color. Anyway, it's changing. The color is changing. But this jewel never lost transparency. It's changed. The condition and appearance are changing. But this money itself doesn't never change. So for example, the money pearl changes in accord with the colors it contacts.

[74:34]

When it contacts the color blue, it becomes blue. When it contacts the color yellow, it becomes yellow, though its essence lacks coloration. There's no color. The finger does not touch. Maybe I don't need this part. I go to the next paragraph. The mind. So he talks about the mind. The mind is as long-lived as space. This mind. This mind is as long-lived. Long-lived as space. means like Buddha's lifespan, as space means forever. Even though you transmigrate to multiple forms in the six ways of transmigration, that means even while we are transmigrating within six realms, this mind never has birth and death.

[75:49]

This mind never has birth and death, arising and perishing. Since the sentient beings do not realize their self-mind, this self-mind is exactly the same expression Huyen Anh used, ji-shin, the mind of the self. Since the sentient beings do not realize their self-mind, you know, this self, they falsely raise deluded feelings and receive retribution for various karmas. They are confused in the original nature, so this mind is also called original nature.

[76:52]

and falsely clinging to the matters of the world. The body of four elements currently has birth and death. This body has birth and death. Now you realize this nature. which is called longevity and also called the longevity measure of the tathagata. That means tathagata's life span, eternal life of tathagata, which is called tathagata. And the motionless nature, motionless nature of fundamental emptiness, All sages of the past and future recognize this nature only as the way. So this mind is called the self-nature or self-mind.

[78:01]

And this is, according to Mazu, this is the dharma body of Tathagata. And this is eternal. But because we don't awaken to this mind, realize this mind, we suffer within the samsara. And now, seeing, listening, sensing, and knowing are fundamentally your original nature, which is also called original mind. It is not that there is a Buddha other than this mind. So this mind is Buddha. That is sokshin zebut means in Maso's teaching. This mind is itself Buddha.

[79:03]

That is the teaching. And this mind is permanent and has no color, transparent. This mind originally existed and exists at present, without depending on intentional creation and action. It was originally pure and is pure at present, without waiting for cleaning and wiping." So we don't need to clean or wipe. That means we don't need to practice. Self-nature attains nirvana. Self-nature is pure. Self-nature is liberation. And self-nature departs from delusions. It is your mind-nature which is originally the Buddha. And you do not have to seek the Buddha from somewhere else.

[80:08]

You are you are the diamond samadhi, diamond samadhi, that is never-changing samadhi, by yourself, without again intending to attain samadhi by concentration. That means we don't need to make effort to enter the samadhi, because this samadhi is eternal. even though you attain it by concentration and meditation, you do not reach the Supreme. So you do not reach the Supreme, the ultimate. So this is the mind. in Vaso's teaching. And Vaso said, this mind is itself Buddha. That's the teaching of Vaso.

[81:09]

Please. By personal effort, by personal practice. It's we, everyone inherit, everyone inherit this mind, but we don't see it. Because we don't see it, we are deluded. And please. You said this is mainstream. Yes. So today, some Buddhist scholars think Zen is not Buddhism. is within the stream of atma. It sounds like you're actually describing atma, just in a different way. But in this school, is mind itself empty?

[82:12]

Or is mind equal to five standards which are empty? I think they use this word, emptiness, and this mind is empty. But in that case, emptiness means this lack of delusion, any delusive idea. But in the original meaning of emptiness, so emptiness in this sense, this emptiness is like there's nothing in the house within a building. But I think original meaning of emptiness in Mahayana teaching is the house doesn't exist. But in this teaching, this mind is there, like a marine jewel, always pure, and yet it's empty. That means there's no trash in it. So the meaning of emptiness changed.

[83:14]

And when I read, you know, Mazu or Baso's teaching about this kind, this teaching about mind, In fact, the monk from the South said to Nanyo Echu, very similar, if it's not exactly the same. The one different thing is Mao Tzu didn't say this mind is the owner of five skandhas. or owner of the house, then house burned, then this owner can leave and get a new house. But never said such a thing. I don't know. Anyway, this is the authentic Buddhist teaching. If this, I mean, not Buddhist, but authentic Zen teaching, at least no one could decide, you know, this is strange, or this is questionable.

[84:23]

This is the mainstream Zen teaching. Please. This is a record of sayings of Vaso, or Mazu. And this translation was made by, what was his name, something like Geoffrey, Geoffrey Broughton, in the book entitled Hanchu, I forget. Hanchu is, in Japanese, Koshu. That is the name of the place where Baso lived, Baso Amazu lived. And Baso Amazu's school is called Koshu-shu, or Hanchu School. Koshu in kanji is... Sorry.

[85:27]

And this is not only Zen teaching, but this is kind of what Buddha, not Buddha, but Mazu or Baso, based on is a teaching from several sutras. And the basic idea of this teaching is a kind of a combination between tathagatagarbha theory and yogacara teaching of consciousness only. We said there are two kinds of mind, that is citta and fridayah. And this mind mentioned by Basho is Fridaya, not a thinking mind. And in this theory, thinking mind or citta is called consciousness, basically araya consciousness.

[86:44]

That is a concept used in Yogacara teaching. And this mind as Fridaya or Buddha mind is truth or reality or ta-ta-ta, sin-nyo itself. But our thinking mind is called consciousness, and consciousness cannot reach this mind. So this is what, you know, thinking mind or phenomenal mind or mind as Ji, And this is, Fridaya is called mind as we. And those ideas came from, as I said, several sutras, such as in the case of Vaso, Mas said, this teaching of one mind came from Rangkabatara Sutra. Rangkabatara.

[87:46]

And also Shurangama, Shurangama Sutra. and Sutra of Complete Enlightenment, or Enkakukyo. In those sutras, they combine the theory of Tathagatagarbha as a Buddha nature and consciousness only as our thinking mind. What is the second sutra after Lankavattara? Shurangama. Shurangama Sutra. And the best text to understand this theory is Awakening of Faith in Mahayana. Please. Is this teaching that the mind can't reach consciousness, is it the idea of this illustration that the eye can't see itself? It can't reach? Yes.

[88:48]

According to the theory in the Awakening of Faith in Mahayana, the true reality is called one mind. That is Isshin. And this one mind has two aspects. One is mind in the absolute aspect, and that is called tatata, or suchness or thusness. And second is shinshoumetsu. the mind that allows and perish, that moves. But the mind in the absolute aspect doesn't move. It's fixed. It's eternal. It has no change. Second one is in English translation, it's called the mind in the aspect of phenomena.

[89:59]

Phenomena. Phenomenal aspect of this mind. In Chinese, it is called the mind which allows and perishes. And this has also two sides. One is awakening, another is non-awakening. Non-awakening, non-awakening, kaku and fukaku. And the aspect of kaku is called mind of Tathagatagarbha. And the aspect of non-awakening is called araya consciousness. And basically what this theory is saying is, you know, why mind doesn't move, doesn't change, but somehow, suddenly, the wind of what?

[91:04]

No. Ignorance. Somehow wind of ignorance blow. Then this mind start to move. This absolute mind start to move like a water When there's no wind, water is completely peaceful, doesn't move, and deflects everything as they are, as it is. But when the wind of ignorance blows, the surface of water starts to move. That is waves. And that is what is called consciousness. We think. We start to think. So thinking is caused by this wind of ignorance. And as soon as this starts to move, this mind is divided into two sides.

[92:16]

One is subject, another is object. And subject and object contact each other and makes our life samsara. So to become enlightened means to return to this original mind, so-called mind nature or mind source. which is before this wind of ignorance started to blow. That means when we stop thinking, this absolute mind is restored. That is the basic teaching of awakening of faith. Awakening of faith in Mahayana. And Mother's teaching about the mind is itself Buddha came from that teaching.

[93:21]

That mind is what has been transmitted by Buddhas and ancestors. That is what, you know, mind-to-mind transmission means, without thinking or without written text that is called scriptures or sutras. Without written teaching, this mind, absolute mind, is transmitted. That is what is called ishin denshin, mind-to-mind transmission. But I don't think Dogen used this expression, mind-to-mind transmission. he used face-to-face transmission, but not mind-to-mind. So mind-to-mind transmission means, you know, transmitting this dharma. And if you are familiar with Huanbo, or Auerbach's text, that is, Denshin Hoyo, or the

[94:29]

essence of dharma that has been transmitted, mind. And this dharma, in Obaku's teaching, also the same thing. And, you know, the word kensho, kensho means seeing the nature. This seeing the nature means seeing this mind nature. So this is the very basic theory of Rinzai practice of seeing nature or Kensho. That's why I said this is an authentic mainstream Zen teaching. If this is an authentic mainstream Zen teaching, then what is Nanyo's teaching? Nanyo's idea of mind is fences, walls, tables, tiles and tables, and Dogen agrees with it. What is this? This is my big question, and I have no answer.

[95:35]

That means my question can be, is Dogen Zen master or not? Or is Dogen teaching Zen or not? Please. Yeah. That is enlightenment. So in Master's line, or even in Rinzai tradition, their teaching method is like shouting or hitting. That is the way Masters help students stop thinking. and awaken to that original mind. As far as we are thinking, then we never reach or awaken to that original mind.

[96:38]

So we have to stop thinking. But in Dogen's teaching, I think the basis of his teaching is at least a little different. Basically, Dogen doesn't think our thinking is caused by the window of ignorance. But in Genjō-kō, he said this is wind nature. makes the water into gold or cream. And he called this the wind of Buddha's family, Buddha's house. So this wind is the nature. So nature is not something fixed or something eternal without motion. But in Dogen's teaching, our life is moving. And, you know, fences, walls, pebbles, and pebbles means tiles and pebbles.

[97:50]

That means all beings within phenomenal world are the mind. That means we are connected with all beings within the network of interdependence origination. So to me, in the case of Dogen's teaching, this mind is the way our life is. That means interconnectedness. it's not something fixed within ourselves, but the way we are, that is, living together with all beings, supported each other, connected each other. That is what According to Indogen's understanding, that is what true reality of all beings means, you know, through ten suchness.

[98:53]

Everything is connected with everything, but each thing has its own unique form, nature, energy, function, and so on. Well, I'm sorry I talk too long. But I think this is a very important point to study Indogen's teaching. So when Dogen quote Huenan saying that we study and understand the Lotus Sutra on the basis of ji-shin or self-mind, at least in Dogen's understanding, this shin or mind, self-mind, is not this kind of mind. But I think he interprets these sayings by Shuinan as he said in Genjo Koan, to study Buddha way is to study the self.

[99:57]

So we study what is said in the Lotus Sutra as to study the self. Lotus Sutra is like a fantasy. There's not so much philosophical discussion, but it's very interesting fantasies, images. So if we are not careful, we see this is some kind of show that has nothing to do with me. But as Fath Dogen said in Genjo Koan, it's to study the Buddha way. And this sutra is very important. Lotus Sutra is very important sutra to study the Buddha way. So we have to study on the basis of studying the self, who this is, what this is. I think that is how Dogen interprets this admonition by Huinan, as Buddha's darshanan, or Buddha's insight, is the mind of the self.

[101:15]

That is what I have to say today, this morning. Then we continue to read Huinan's conversation. Show me.

[102:04]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_90.72