2015.08.19-serial.00153

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Good morning, everyone. Yesterday afternoon, I started to read the text of Hokke Ten Hokke. And I started to read this text from the story or conversation between the Huinan, the sixth ancestor of Chinese Zen, and one of his monks. And because Huinan said we should study what is written in Lotus Sutra on the basis or context of our ji-shin, the mind of the self. So I started to talk about the mind, this mind. Huinan, our sixth ancestor, mentioned. And I quoted Dogen's fascicle of Shobo Genzo entitled Soku Shin Zei Butsu, The Mind is Itself Buddha.

[01:11]

And there, Dogen introduced one understanding of the mind, which Dogen doesn't agree. That is what is called Seneca's idea of mind. And I received a request that I should talk more about Seneca. Is that all of your desire? Well, Seneca is a person's name. who appeared in the Mahāyāna Parinibbāna Sūtra. And this person was not a Buddhist. And this person talked, discussed something, about something with Shakyamuni. And what Seneca said is a very common idea of not exactly Hinduism, but Hindu teaching

[02:22]

before Shakyamuni. And that is about Atman. I think you know what Atman is. Atman is sometimes translated as soul. And Atman is pure, without any defilement, and which doesn't change, and which exists in our body and mind. And this soul, or Atman, is like an owner of the house. This is a house. And this Atman is like an owner. And according to Hindu teaching, or Brahmanism teaching, this Atman is pure and undefiled. And yet, somehow, this Atman is imprisoned within this body. And this body is a source of the problem, source of delusions.

[03:31]

And we become deluded and we do many mistakes. So in that teaching, how to release this Atman from this flesh or body that is a source of evil, is the goal. And around the time of Shakyamuni, there are two methods to allow the Atman to release from the bad influence from this flesh that is a source of evil. One is meditation. Meditation And second is very severe ascetic practice. And the idea is by the practice of meditation, we calm down our mind, then this soul can be free from the deluded thinking.

[04:39]

And another method, ascetic practice, is by weakening the energy of our body, our physical energy. By, you know, not eating, or, you know, those two practices. What Shakyamuni did, in the very beginning, right after he left his father's palace, And what Shakyamuni practiced as ascetic practice is he didn't eat except a few grains of rice or something else. And he stopped breathing until almost he died. or he did many other very strict ascetic practice, and he found that kind of practice didn't work, so he quit.

[05:47]

And he received food from a girl in the village named Sujata, and he ate something and recovered some energy, physical energy, and started to sit under the Bodhi tree. And I don't have much time to talk about Buddha's life, but after he attained, he became Buddha, our teacher, what he taught is Anatman. An Atman means no Atman. That means Atman doesn't exist. So this is the difference between Buddha's teaching and Hindu teachings or teaching that was common in India around the time of Shakyamuni. So, as a non-Buddhist Indian person, to talk about Atman is a very common thing, ordinary thing.

[07:01]

He just expressed his understanding of his belief. But because Shakyamuni negated the Atman, the idea of Atman, if Buddhists talk about Atman, as a part of their theory and practice, then that is called a non-Buddhist, or a mistaken idea. Because, you know, I think you know the three or four Dharma seals. Three Dharma seals is everything is impermanent. and everything has no self. That is an atman. And everything is suffering. Those are called three dharmasis. And four dharmasis means, in addition to those three, the final one is nirvana.

[08:06]

Nirvana is serene, jacujo serene and pure. Those are called three or four dharma seals. And in this case, seals means stamp. Stamp means, you know, when you write or make calligraphy or paint. In China and Japan, we put the stamp of the person's name. That means if we find the stamp of certain person's name, then it certifies this calligraphy or painting is done by this person. So this seal or stamp is same as signature in American culture. That means if we find those three or four points in someone's teachings, then that teaching can be called Buddhism.

[09:15]

if lack of something, or if something against those four points is included in that teaching, that cannot be called Buddhism. That is the criterion of what is Buddhism and what is not. I have trouble understanding sometimes. To me too. That's a very interesting and important point, but very confusing. I'm sorry, I don't have an answer to your question.

[10:45]

It's a big question, and I have to write one book about that question. So that means nothing permanent that doesn't change is within ourselves. And that something which doesn't change is almost like an owner of these five skandhas. What the Buddha said is there are only five skandhas. That is rupa, rupa or form. In our life, in the case of human beings, this rupa, or form, means our body, material. And other four, perceptions, sensation, perception, formation, and consciousness. You are familiar with these five from the Heart Sutra. And the Heart Sutra said that all those five skandhas are empty.

[11:49]

But what Buddha said is five skandhas. There are only five skandhas. Nothing else. Especially, you know, this something that can be the owner of five skandhas. That means, that is in another word, Atman. There is no such thing called Atman that is permanent and owner of this body and mind. and operator of this body and mind. That is one of the definitions of Atman, or Ga. In Chinese, Atman is translated as Ga. Ga is usually translated into English as self. So an Atman is translated as no self. But somehow we think there is something which is the owner of this body and mind.

[13:03]

Well, first of all, the definition of Atman or Ga in Buddhism is, in Chinese or Japanese, 嬢, 逸, 修, 才. Joy is permanent, which doesn't change, always existing in the same way. And its is one. So Atman is only one. There is no two Atman in this body, in this person. Only one Atman for one person. And that shu means the host or owner or lord. Make sense? So this atman or self or ga is permanent, never change, and only one, and the owner of these five skandhas.

[14:16]

And sai means to operate. Operate? Like a driver. Operator. So the Atman is the owner of these five skandhas and operates these five skandhas, our body and mind. And that is only one and that never changes. This is the definition of Atman in Buddhism. And what the Buddha said, what the Buddha taught was there is no such thing. Please. But you mentioned Seneca because he was an important, influential teacher at the time? No. Because Dogen quote. In Sokushin Zebutsu. Please. So the concept of Buddha nature is Atman or Anatman?

[15:20]

That is a problem. That is really a problem. And I don't know. I mean, please? A few moments ago you said in Buddhism there's nothing permanent within the self. And I think you were referring to the body and mind. Do you also say there's nothing permanent beyond this? Right. That is what the Buddha said. Only five skandhas. And the five skandhas are impermanent. And it's a collection of five elements. And it's always changing. And sooner or later, it's dispersed. Even in the Pali Canon, the Buddha sometimes referred to the deathless. Actually, that is what Buddha said when he made his decision to start teaching.

[16:26]

Now the gate of deathlessness is open. Deathlessness. No death without death. So what deathlessness or no death means is another big question. And also in the Lotus Sutra, in the Dharmakaya, Shakyamuni is eternal. What does this mean? That is a big question. Well, I don't have any answer. I'm kind of questioning what this means. I'm still in the process of finding the answer to this question. So, I'm not a Buddha yet. So, that is the Buddha's teaching of anathama, no-self.

[17:30]

And as Yuko-san asked, what is Buddha nature then? Buddha nature, the concept of Buddha nature didn't exist when the Lothar Sutra was produced. There is no such concept of Buddha nature before Nagarjuna. Nagarjuna never used the word Buddha nature. But this idea of Buddha nature appeared between Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu. Nagarjuna lived, it's said, between 150 to 50. We don't really exactly know when he lived. But, early Mahayana Buddhist, early Mahayana sutras were made before Nagarjuna.

[18:39]

including the Lotus Sutra. And Vasubandhu was another very important great master, Buddhist master, belongs to the so-called Yogacara school. Nagarjuna's school is called Majamka. And another school in Mahayana in India was called Yogacara. And Vasubandhu was the most important teacher or master in Yogachara school. And he lived about 4th to 5th century. And between Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu, you know, there are many other Buddhists, Mahayana Sutra were produced. And one of them was a sutra named Tathagatagarbha Sutra.

[19:43]

This is the first sutra mentioned about Tathagatagarbha. And Tathagatagarbha is another name for Buddha nature. Tathagatagarbha Sutra. And according to this sutra, In the very beginning of this sutra, somehow Buddha, using his mighty power, his might, somehow many beautiful flowers, lotus flowers, appeared in the sky. And yet, soon after that, the lotus flower became decayed and became ugly. The beautiful flower became ugly and smelled very bad. But within that rotten flower, there was a Buddha.

[20:49]

That is the first image of Buddha nature. described in the first sutra about the Tathagatagarbha. This means, you know, we are rotten flowers, full of delusions. But within this rotten lotus flower, there is a golden Buddha there. And this Golden Buddha doesn't change. But it doesn't say this is the owner of five skandhas. But this is a baby of Buddha. Tathagatagarbha means womb. Womb and embryo or baby. So this Buddha nature, or Tathagatagarbha, originally considered as a baby of Buddha. So, even though we are deluded, and we make so many mistakes, but still, all human beings, all living beings, have Golden Buddha within us, no matter how rotten and smells bad we are.

[22:11]

That is a very original idea of Buddha nature or Tathagatagarbha. And I think only Mahayana Buddhists need this concept of baby Buddha. And this is considered as a possibility to become Buddha. You know, Buddhists before Mahāyāna didn't need such a concept. Because no one, no Buddhists thought they could become Buddha. You know, after Mahāyāna, Mahāyāna people think, we are all Bodhisattvas. When we arrived Bodhicitta, same aspiration as Sumedha did in Buddha's past life. But when we start, we allow bodhicitta and started to practice, we don't feel we can become Buddha.

[23:13]

It's very difficult to have a confidence that we can become Buddha. Because we see, when we honestly and closely see ourselves, the delusion is so deep. Even if delusion is ourselves, how can these deluded beings become Buddha? So it's really difficult, even though we allowed bodhicitta and tried to become, practiced bodhisattva and tried to walk the path, bodhisattva path to become Buddha. And it said, you know, from the time we allowed bodhicitta until reach the goal, that is buddhahood, it takes more than forever. numberless kalpas.

[24:15]

So I think bodhisattvas or Mahayana Buddhists need some kind of a guarantee. Even though we are such a deluded people, still, if we continue to practice following what the Buddha taught, then sooner or later, probably much later, but hundreds of percent, guaranteed that we become Buddha. I think that is the origin of the idea of Buddha nature. So Buddha nature is nothing to do with the idea of art man. That is the owner of five skandhas. owner and operator of the five skandhas. But Bodhisattva or Mahayana Buddhists need this, you know, guarantee. You know, if we continue to practice, sooner or later we become Buddha.

[25:21]

Please. I'm just wondering if... I mean, that sounds a lot like the prediction that the Buddha made to people in the assembly, whom he first, you know, sort of said they're not, Yes, when Buddha was alive, we could receive prediction from Buddha. But because Buddha is gone, who could give us prediction? So I think they feel they need some kind of confidence or faith or trust that no matter how much deluded we are and how deep our delusion could be. If we practice, study the Buddha's teachings and practice, then sometime in the future it's sure we can become Buddha. Excuse me.

[26:23]

I know we have a different view. You talk about becoming, practicing, and there are other words like that. You seem to find that Buddha nature is an activity. It's a dynamic, moving activity, not a thing like that. That is Dogen's idea of Buddha nature. So for Dogen, Buddha nature is not something within us and which doesn't change. But not far in Shobo Gendo Buddha Nature, Dogen said Buddha Nature is impermanence. Well, where shall I go from here? So, from the very beginning of this idea of Buddha Nature, our Tathagata Garbha was created. There are kind of questions or arguments.

[27:36]

What is the difference between this Buddha nature and another point of Buddha nature is like a Buddha nature is like a golden Buddha statue, you know, covered with dirt. And it said whether we are deluded or enlightened or even after we become Buddha, this Buddha nature doesn't change. So Buddha nature is permanent. So the question from other people about this theory is what is the difference between Buddha nature and Atman? You know, Buddha nature is not part of five skandhas. because five skandhas are all impermanent and coming and going. But it's said Buddha nature doesn't change. Then what is this, this strange thing? That is the question.

[28:40]

So the people who created this theory have to argue back. And they said Buddha nature is not Atman. But still, this is another endless discussion. And it continues. Continue to the time of... I talked yesterday, 908 Chu. The idea of an Atman, was it something that would leave the body? Atman is imprisoned with this body. When this body dies, the Atman goes to another body. And that is what reverse means. So, what is Buddha nature if Buddha nature is not Atman?

[29:49]

is a long-lasting discussion without a final answer. And that discussion continues until the time of Nanyo Echu and even Dogen's time, and even today. Please, do you have something to say? I think that is a good question to Buddha. Why Buddha negate the Atman? There must be some point Buddha needs to mention.

[30:58]

And I think the point is, for Shakyamuni, there is no certain fixed thing. Everything is a collection of different elements. That's why, even though our life is suffering, suffering can be ceased. If there is something fixed, then there is no way we become released from this way of life. Because everything is coming and going as a temporal condition. When we change the condition, we can be released. from that way of life. I think that is Shakyamuni's point when he negates the teaching of the Atman. I just wanted to say that so Atman comes from the Vedantic philosophy and in that philosophy Atman is the same as God, Brahman.

[32:13]

So for me that's a huge difference because you're taking the idea of God out. And Atman is never negative in Hindu teachings. For example, Gandhi is called Mahatma Gandhi. Mahatma means Mahatma. That means great person. So Atman has never been a negative concept in Hindu teachings. only Buddha and only Buddhism that negate Atman. So Buddhism is something strange in the context of Indian or Hindu spirituality. Buddha was a strange person. Why did he have to negate Atman?

[33:14]

Atman is so important and a good thing. Buddha's student, somehow we have to accept the Buddha's thought as a true Dharma. That is our problem. Please. Because I thought of it as Vedanta was brought up, I feel like I've been wanting to say that within that school, it's believed that the only difference really between the Atman and Brahman is misidentification of the Atman's mind. And Brahman's not God. Yeah, because I don't have much knowledge about Hinduism, so I cannot tell, but I'm not sure.

[34:19]

If I study more about Hinduism, maybe atman and non-anatman can be the same meaning, same thing. Only negative and positive expression. But I don't know. But because Buddha said no atman, and that is one of the three or four dharma seals, Atman is there, then that cannot be considered as a Buddhist teaching. That is a kind of a rule within Buddhism. In the context of Buddhism, Atman, I think, is created because we think. Our thinking, I think, needs something which doesn't change.

[35:26]

You know, five skandhas are body and mind. And when I was born, my body was not like this, much smaller. And my mind doesn't work so well. But that was me. So, 67 years ago, I was a baby. And 50 years ago, I was a teenager. And I have been going through this process of changing. I became from a baby to a boy and a teenager. younger adult and middle-aged person, and now I am an older person. I have been changing. But as far as we use the word or language, I have to say, I was a baby.

[36:29]

I was a teenager. So, you know, the condition of body and mind are different. in each stage, not only each stage, but each day or each moment, this body and mind are changing. But if we don't have one word that can point out this entire process as me or I, then we cannot even talk about the change. When I say, I go through this change, You know, this I doesn't change. But this I that doesn't change goes through the process of changing. Right? So this I, this concept of I, is the, I think, origin of the idea of Atman, or soul, something, or kind of identity.

[37:31]

even though five skandhas are always changing, but there is some identity which doesn't change. So this I is a production of our thinking mind. That means concept. But somehow we reify this concept of I. And we think this I is because I use this body and mind. Now I use my mouth to speak. So I'm using part of my body and part of my mind. So it's kind of a natural thing. This eye is the owner of these five senses and the operator of these five senses. But this eye is the production of five skandhas.

[38:36]

At least that is what Buddha said. You know... Maybe I have to finish this. In Shobo Genzo Hotsubo Daishin, Dogen talks about impermanence. And he said, When we arrived Bodhichitta, Buddha's eternal life appeared within this impermanence. And at the end of this versicle, Hotsubo Daishin, Dogen said about Mara. What is Mara? And he quoted Nagarjuna's definition of Mara. And Nagarjuna said, there are four kinds of Mara.

[39:38]

Mara is something which prevents us to be enlightened. Buddha conquered the Mara, subdued the Mara when he became enlightened. And Nagarjuna said, there are four kinds. One is our delusion. And the second is death. Death is Mara. Death. And the third is five skandhas. These five skandhas are Mara. And the fourth is Mara as a celestial being or heavenly being. That is the you know, Mara, appears in the story, Jataka story. Mara, when Buddha was sitting, Mara came, attacked Shakyamuni with his armies. That is a kind of a story. So Nagarjuna said, in Buddhist scriptures, there are those four kinds of Mara.

[40:44]

But he said, as a reality, only one. Mara is only one. And that is five skandhas. So, according to Nagarjuna, Mara is five skandhas. And I thought this is Nagarjuna's interpretation. But actually, Shakyamuni himself said, five skandhas are Mara. In Pali Canon. Parinikāya. I can tell you where it appeared. I have that note. And another part of Parinikāya, Buddha said, Buddha said about his condition before and after he was enlightened.

[41:54]

And he said, five skandhas have three aspects. One is, five skandhas give us happiness or delight. But second is, five skandhas is suffering. And the third point is, therefore we need to, how can I say, liberate it, release, or depart from five skandhas. And he understood that, but until he really became free from five skandhas, that is a mara, he said, I didn't say I was enlightened, or I became Buddha. So five skandhas. That means his own body and mind was Mara.

[42:58]

But he conquered or subdued his five skandhas, his Mara. But the important point is he didn't kill the Mara. He didn't kill. That means Mara lived together with Buddha. So Mahārāja appeared sometimes in Buddha's life. Even right before his death, Mahārāja visited Buddha. Because Mahārāja is Buddha himself. And often we studied four Noble Truths. The first Noble Truth is Truth of Suffering. Everything is suffering. And according to Buddhist teaching, there are eight kinds of sufferings. First four are Shoro-byoshi, birth, aging, sickness, and dying, or death.

[44:03]

And next three are something like, we have to meet with people we don't like. Meet people we don't like. And we have to separate from people we love. That is second. And third is we cannot gain, we cannot get things we want. Those are the first seven sufferings we experience. So I think all of us experience those seven. And the final kind of suffering is kind of unique. Not unique, but different from the first seven. That is, five scandals are suffering. It's not, we care about what we don't want. It's five scandals are suffering.

[45:06]

In that case, five skandhas is called pancha, upadana, skandhas. And upadana means attachment or clinging. That means five skandhas attach themselves to themselves. That means five skandhas attach to this idea of I. That is suffering. So those kinds of concrete sufferings are happening because of the quality of five skandhas. because five skandhas attach themselves to themselves, to five skandhas. So, what Buddha taught was, only five skandhas.

[46:12]

There is no such I who suffers. Five skandhas attach themselves to five skandhas, and five skandhas suffer. So, suffering is there, but no one suffers. So, the important point is, take this upadana out. Five skandhas simply become five skandhas. That is a release from clinging to five skandhas. Five skandhas become free from five skandhas. Free from attachment or upadana to themselves. That is revelation. And if we understand what the Buddha taught in this way, and we read the very first sentence of the Heart Sutra, I think what the Buddha taught and what the Heart Sutra said is exactly the same thing.

[47:28]

I think all of you know the Heart Sutra, no? Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, when deeply practicing Prajnaparamita, clearly sees the emptiness of five skandhas, unsaved from suffering. So when we see five skandhas as empty, means nothing to cling or attach. So we open our hand. We release from, not we, but five skandhas are released from this clinging to the five skandhas. That is what happens when Avalokiteshvara sees the emptiness of five skandhas. Then that is the time of being free from suffering. So what Buddha taught, about the truth of suffering.

[48:32]

And the Heart Sutra says, Avalokiteshvara, when deeply practicing Prajnaparamita, clearly sees the five skandhas and relieves from suffering. So, when we see five skandhas, that is a problem. You know, this first sentence of the Heart Sutra says, Avalokiteshvara, when deeply practicing Prajnaparamita, clearly see the sight scanners are empty. Within this sentence, there is a person whose name was Avalokiteshvara. And there are objects of that person who is seeing. that are five skandhas. And this person, using a kind of a tool, Prajna Paramita, or wisdom, is a kind of a tool.

[49:40]

Like a reading glass. You know, I cannot read what is written on this paper without this. But when I put my reading glass, I can read. I can see and read. And we usually think wisdom is something like reading glass. Without this tool or device, we cannot see what this really is. But because of the aid of this thing, I can clearly see five scanners are empty. That is what wisdom means. So wisdom, in our common understanding, is like a device or tool. like a hearing aid or a reading glass. So with these two, Avalokiteshvara could clearly see the emptiness of five skandhas. But this sentence is really seeing so.

[50:43]

This is not a mistaken understanding. But if we understand, read, and understand this first sentence of the Heart Sutra in this way, we completely miss the point of what the people who made the Heart Sutra wanted to say. Because, first of all, The Heart Sutra wanted to say there is no such person whose name is Avalokiteshvara besides five skandhas. So Avalokiteshvara is five skandhas. And Prajna is also five skandhas. And emptiness is five skandhas. So everything there, all things there is simply five skandhas. And five skandhas simply being five skandhas. without a kind of a separation between five skandhas as subject and five skandhas as object.

[51:44]

That is when Avalokiteshvara sees the emptiness of five skandhas. So Avalokiteshvara disappears, and five skandhas as object disappear. And this is simply one thing. That is when we are released from the sufferings. This might relate to Sean's question that was deferred, but it seems to me that we can hear these words that five skandhas are this or that. The key element that you just mentioned is that they're only words until we see those words through the activity of practicing Prajnaparamita. So we can practice Prajnaparamita and don't need words at all. So, in the case of Dogen's teaching, Prajnaparamita is our Zazen.

[52:49]

Not what we think about that five skandhas. We also say that Zazen is more than our idea or our form of Zazen? Zazen is what we do using our body and mind. Five skandhas. And, you know, in Dogen's expression, our Zazen is dropping of body and mind. Dropping of body and mind means five skandhas. Right? Five skandhas are body and mind. So Dogen's expression, dropping of body and mind, that is his zazen, is exactly the prajnaparamita. So that is one of the threads I found from the Shakyamuni's teaching, Mahayana Buddhist teaching, like the Heart Sutra's teaching, and Dogen's teaching. There's one thread which doesn't change.

[53:53]

That is, five skandhas cling to five skandhas. Then five skandhas are mara. But when five skandhas see the emptiness of five skandhas, as Dogen said in Shobo Genzo Makahane Aramitsu, five skandhas are five instances of prajna. Five instances. Instances? seeds of Prajna. That's the first Dogen said. So, you know, there's a transformation. Five skandhas as Mara, to five skandhas as Prajna, or even as Avalokiteshvara. You know, this transformation is what I think, what Buddha experienced under the Bodhi tree. That means he released from Upadana, or clinging to five skandhas.

[54:58]

And the five skandhas simply become five skandhas. That is, five skandhas reveals its emptiness. And that is how Buddha started to teach and live as a teacher. Please. How does this word, Fredaia, relate to what you're describing now? That's a big question. Fredaia, as I said, literally means the heart as a part of our body. I need to talk more to answer your question. What is furidaya? I mean, furidaya, as I said yesterday afternoon, furidaya is used as another name of tatata, or suchness, or thusness, or the reality itself.

[56:06]

That is another point we need to think or discuss. Buddha's insight is to see the emptiness of five skandhas. And not seeing emptiness of five skandhas is not thinking. But it is, as Dogen said, it should be practiced. When we think five skandhas are empty, this is still thinking. We think about the five skandhas as objects. In that case there is a separation between person who is seeing five skandhas.

[57:10]

Does it make sense? I have a question on your definition of suffering. You said, everything is suffering. And I've always heard it differently, more like suffering exists in the world, but not necessarily everything is suffering. I'm sorry, but that is what Buddha taught. In that case, when Buddha said everything is suffering, that means Of course we experience some very painful, sad things. And sometimes we have happiness and joy and delight. That is what we experience within our life. So our life is... One expression is our life is like a rope. You know, suffering... suffering or pain and happiness come together.

[58:18]

But according to Buddha, that is suffering. Does it make sense? That means we cannot control. We cannot have satisfaction because we You know, we always want to have only happiness and delight and success, you know, only positive side of our life. But positive side of our life and negative side come together. That's why we cannot satisfy. We can't have complete satisfaction. Sometimes we feel like heavenly beings, but it changes. And next moment we may fall into hell. So that is what sansara or transmigration means. So if only one thing, like suffering or happiness, then we don't need such a practice, such a teaching.

[59:34]

There's no other possibility. But because these two sides are always together, then we only want to have one side, but another side always comes together. That's why our life is dissatisfactory. That is what Shakyamuni said. Everything is suffering. In this case, within this everything, happiness, So this life as a whole consists of positive and negative. It's suffering. Does it make sense? Can I return to Dogen? Not yet Dogen. So, yesterday afternoon, I started to talk about the jishin, the mind of the self, Huinan mentioned.

[60:55]

What Huinan said is, this mind of the self, jishin, self-mind, is Buddha's darshan, is the one great mother in the Lotus Sutra. So I started to talk about what is his mind. And I started to talk about one idea of mind. Dogen didn't agree. And not only Dogen, but Nanyo Echu also agreed. And that mind, that interpretation of mind, spread, taught and spread in the South. Southern Zen groups, at the time of, a little after Huinan, And the monk from the South summarized the Southern teaching of Zen to Zen Master Nanyo Echu.

[62:08]

Then Nanyo Echu said, that is non-Buddhist teaching. That is not Buddhist. The teaching of Seneca. That is not different from the teaching of Atman. Then this monk from the south asked Nanyo Echu, then what is the mind in your teaching or in your understanding? Then Nanyo Echu said, the mind is fences, walls, tiles and pebbles. Fences, walls, tiles and pebbles. Dogen often used this expression. And then the monk from the south said, those are insentient.

[63:12]

Those are insentient beings. How insentient beings can understand Dharma and have Buddha nature? You know, this question came from the teaching about buddha nature in the Mahayana Parinibbana Sutra. Buddha nature, only living beings, only sentient beings have buddha nature. No insentient beings, such as fences, walls, tiles and pebbles, don't have buddha nature. So, this monk kind of criticized Nanyo Echu. Your teaching or understanding is different from what is said in the Parinibbana Sutra. Then, this person, Nanyo Echu, started to say, incented beings can understand Dharma.

[64:15]

Not only understanding, but even preaching, expanding the Dharma. You know, that is the origin of the idea of incendent beings expand Dharma. And Dogen wrote another chapter of Shobo Genzo entitled, Mujo-seppo, Incendent Beings Expanding Dharma. So, you know, this is a very long conversation of Nanyo Echu and this one monk from the south. But this long conversation seems very important to Dogen. Dogen got a very important inspiration later he wrote in Shobu Genzo. That is, his understanding of Sokushin-zebutsu, mind, is itself Buddha. And also, Mujo-seppo, incendent beings, expand Dharma.

[65:24]

And incendent beings include walls, fences, walls, tiles, and pebbles. And that is the origin or source of Dogen's teaching about Keisei Sanshoku. That is the sound of a valley stream and the colors of mountains. They are Buddha's voice and Buddha's body. So, you know, that came from one conversation, one set of teachings of 9.082. So this is a very important teaching for Dogen. And this teaching about all incendent beings expanding Dharma is a kind of, how can I say, opposition. of the idea of the mind, or mind nature, that is permanent, that is inside of ourselves.

[66:37]

And that is a subject of seeing, hearing, sensing, and knowing. That is what, according to this monk, that is what was taught in the South. So Dogen agreed with 9082 about this point. And I'd like to introduce another teaching from the South. This is a saying by Mazu. Mazu Dao'i, or Baso Dao'i in Japanese.

[67:53]

So Nanyo Echiu was Shoninan's disciple. And Mazu is a disciple of Nanga Kurejo. Nangaku Ejo, who was also a disciple of Hinan. So, Mazu Daoi is a kind of a Dharma nephew of Nangaku Ejo. And he, or Mazu, taught in the South. And his teaching is very important. Zen teaching, and no one questioned the authenticity of Mazu teaching as a Zen teaching. So this is a kind of a mainstream teaching of Zen. So this is from recorded saying by Mazu or Baso, Baso Goroku.

[69:02]

Yeah, Baso is Japanese, Mazu is Chinese pronunciation. He said, in the Dharma discourse, Baso said, the great master Mazu preached, or expanded, If you want to recognize the mind, so this is a Dharma discourse about the mind by Baso or Masu. That which is speaking is your mind. That which is speaking. So now I'm speaking. That is my five skandhas.

[70:12]

But he said, what is speaking is your mind. The mind is called the Buddha. And this mind is called the Buddha. So this mind is Shin, is Buddha. the mind is called the Buddha, and it is also the Dharma body. And this is the Dharma body. That means this mind, you know, that is fat, is speaking now. Do you think this is the Dharma body? But according to Baso, this is something which is speaking. is Buddha and Dharma body.

[71:17]

And that is the mind. So it is also the Dharma body, Dharma body Buddha of true form. And it is called the Way. And this is Way or Tao. Way in Buddha way. And this Way is a translation of body. or awakening. And that's it. The sutra says, the Buddha has numerous names in the three great countless kalpas, which are named according to conditions and situations. So Buddha has many different names, but these are all the names of the Buddha, the mind. And that is the name of this something which is speaking. For example, the money pearl.

[72:22]

Money? Do you know money? In this translation it says pearl, but usually this is jewel. Money jewel. Money jewel is transparent. But this transparent jewel changes the color depending upon where this transparent money is placed. When it's placed on the red paper, it becomes red. And when it's placed on the black paper, it becomes black. So this jewel is transparent. And yet, depending upon the situation or condition, this transparent jewel looks like with a certain particular color. And this mind is the same with this jewel.

[73:29]

That means You know, this thing called mind experiences different things. And sometimes we experience a negative thing, then this jewel becomes black. When we are happy, this jewel's sound becomes like a, you know, I don't know what is, a happy color. Anyway, it's changed. The color is changed. But this jewel never lost transparency. It's changed. Its condition is changed. Condition and appearance are changed. But this money itself doesn't never change. So, for example, the money pearl changes in accord with the colors.

[74:30]

When it contacts the color blue, it becomes blue. When it contacts the color yellow, it becomes yellow. Though its essence lacks correlation, there is no color. The finger does not touch. Maybe I don't need this part. I go to the next paragraph. The mind, so he talks about the mind. The mind is as long-lived as space. This mind. This mind is as long-lived. Long-lived? As space. It's like Buddha's life span. As space means forever. Even though you transmigrate to multiple forms in the six ways of transmigration, that means even while we are transmigrating within six realms, this mind never has birth and death.

[75:49]

This mind never has birth and death, arising and perishing. Since the sentient beings do not realize their self-mind, this self-mind is exactly the same expression Huinan used, ji-shin, the mind of the self. Since the sentient beings do not realize their self-mind, you know, this self, they falsely raise deluded feelings and receive retribution for various karmas. They are confused in their original nature. So this mind is also called original nature.

[76:52]

and falsely cling to the matters of the world. The body of four elements currently has birth and death. This body has birth and death. Now you realize this nature which is called longevity and also called the longevity measure of the Tathagata. That means Tathagata's lifespan, eternal life of Tathagata, which is called Tathagata, and the motionless nature, motionless nature of fundamental emptiness. All sages of the past and future recognize this nature only as a way. So this mind is called the self-nature or self-mind.

[78:01]

And this is, according to Mazu, this is the Dharma body of Tathagata. And this is eternal. But because we don't awaken to this mind, realize this mind, we suffer within the samsara. And now, seeing, listening, sensing, and knowing are fundamentally your original nature. It is also called original mind. It is not that there is a Buddha other than this mind. So this mind is Buddha. What is sokushinzebutu means in Masu or Basho's teaching. This mind is itself Buddha.

[79:03]

That is the teaching. And this mind is permanent and has no color, transparent. This mind originally existed and exists at present without depending on intentional creation and action. It was originally pure and is pure at present without waiting for cleaning and wiping. So we don't need to clean or wipe. That means we don't need to practice. Self-nature attained nirvana. Self-nature is pure. Self-nature is liberation. And self-nature departs from delusions. It is your mind-nature which is originally the Buddha. And you do not have to seek the Buddha from somewhere else.

[80:08]

You are You are the diamond samadhi, diamond samadhi, that is never-changing samadhi, by yourself, without again intending to attain samadhi by concentration. That means we don't need to make an effort to enter the samadhi, because this samadhi is eternal. Even though you attain it by concentration and meditation, you do not reach the supreme. So, you do not reach the supreme, the ultimate. So, this is the mind in Vassal's teaching. And Basho said, this mind is itself Buddha. That's the teaching of Basho.

[81:15]

By personal effort, by personal practice. Everyone inherits this mind, but we don't see it. Because we don't see it, we are deluded. Yes. Pardon? I don't know. So, today, some Buddhist scholars think Zen is not Buddhism. Please. It sounds like this theory is within the stream of Atma. It sounds like you're actually describing Atma. just in a different way, but in this school, is mind itself empty? Or is mind equal to the five skandhas, which are empty? And then I'm wondering how this is living forever.

[82:19]

I think they use this word, emptiness. This mind is empty. But in that case, emptiness means this lack of delusion. any delusive idea. But in the original meaning of emptiness, so emptiness in this sense, this emptiness is like there's nothing in the house within a building. But I think original meaning of emptiness in Mahayana teaching is the house doesn't exist. But in this teaching, this mind is there, like a money jewel. are always pure, and yet it's empty. That means there's no trash in it. So the meaning of emptiness changed. And when I read Mazu or Basho's teaching about this teaching about mind,

[83:25]

In fact, the monk from the south said to Nanyo Echu, it's very similar, if it's not exactly the same. The one different thing is Mao Tzu didn't say this mind is the owner of five skandhas. or owner of the house, then house burned, then this owner can leave and get a new house. Buddha never said such a thing. I don't know. Anyway, this is an authentic Buddhist teaching. If this, I mean, not Buddhist, but authentic Zen teaching, at least no one criticize, you know, this is strange. But this is questionable. This is mainstream Zen teaching. This is a record of sayings of Baso, or Mazu.

[84:36]

And this translation was made by something like Jeffrey Broughton. in the book entitled Hanchu... I forget. Hanchu means, in Japanese, Koshu. That is the name of the place where Baso lived. Baso Amazu lived. And Baso Amazu's school is called Koshu-shu, or Hanchu School. Koshu in kanji is, sorry, and this is not only Zen teaching, but this is kind of

[85:48]

based on the teaching from several sutras. And the basic idea of this teaching is a kind of a combination between Tathagatagarbha theory and Yogacara teaching of consciousness only. We said there are two kinds of mind, that is, Chitta and Fridaya. And this mind mentioned by Baso is Fridaya, not a thinking mind. And in this theory, thinking mind or Chitta is called consciousness. Basically, araya consciousness. That is a concept used in Yogacara teaching. And this mind as Fridaya or Buddha mind is truth or reality or Tathātā, Shīnyō itself.

[87:00]

But our thinking mind is called consciousness. and consciousness cannot reach this mind. So this is the fact, you know, thinking mind, or phenomenal mind, or mind as G, and this is, Fridaya is called mind as we. And those ideas came from, as I said, several sutras. Such as, in the case of Baso, Mahārāja said this teaching of one mind came from Rāṅgāvātara sutra. Rāṅgāvātara. And also Śrīlaṅgama. Śrīlaṅgama sutra. And sutra of complete enlightenment. In those sutras, they combine the theory of Tathagatagarbha as a Buddha nature and consciousness only as our thinking mind.

[88:13]

Shurangama. Shurangama Sutra. And the best text to understand this theory is Awakening of Faith in Mahayana. Is this teaching that the mind can't reach consciousness, is it the idea of this illustration of the I can't see itself? It can't reach? According to the theory in the Awakening of Faith in Mahayana, the true reality is called one mind. That is Isshin. And this one mind has two aspects. One is mind in the absolute aspect, and that is called Tathata.

[89:19]

suchness or thusness. And second is shin shou metsu, the mind that allows and perishes, that moves. But the mind in the absolute aspect doesn't move. It's fixed, it's eternal, it has no change. Second one is in English translation, it's called the mind in the aspect of phenomena. Phenomena. Phenomenal aspect of this mind. In Chinese it is called 心消滅, the mind which allows and perishes. And this has also two sides. One is awakening, another is non-awakening.

[90:23]

Non-awakening, kaku and fukaku. And the aspect of kaku is called mind of Tathagatagarbha. And the aspect of non-awakening is called araya consciousness. And basically what this theory is saying is, you know, one mind doesn't move, doesn't change, but somehow, suddenly, the wind of No. Ignorance. Somehow the wind of ignorance blows. Then this mind starts to move. This absolute mind starts to move, like water. When there is no wind, water is completely peaceful, doesn't move.

[91:36]

and reflect everything as they are, as it is. But when the wind of ignorance blows, the mind, the surface of water starts to move. That is waves. And that is what is called consciousness. We think. We start to think. So thinking is caused by this wind of ignorance. And as soon as this starts to move, this mind is divided into two sides. One is subject, another is object. And subject and object contact each other and make our life samsara. So to become enlightened means to return to this original mind, so-called mind nature or mind source, which is before this wind of ignorance started to blow.

[92:52]

That means when we stop thinking, Absolute Mind is restored. That is the basic teaching of Awakening of Faith. Awakening of Faith in Mahayana and Mahayana teaching about the mind is itself Buddha came from that teaching. That mind is what has been transmitted by Buddhas and Ancestors. That is what mind-to-mind transmission means. Without thinking, or without written text that is called scriptures or sutras, without written teaching, this mind, absolute mind, is transmitted. That is what is called Ishin Denshin, mind-to-mind transmission.

[93:55]

But I don't think Dogen used this expression, mind-to-mind transmission. He used face-to-face transmission, but not mind-to-mind. So mind-to-mind transmission means transmitting this dharma. And if you are familiar with Huanbo, or Obaku's text, that is Denshin Hōyō, or the essence of Dharma that has been transmitted, mind, and this Dharma in Obaku's teaching is also the same thing. And, you know, the word Kensho. Kensho means seeing the nature. This seeing the nature means seeing this mind nature. So, this is the very basic theory of Rinzai practice of seeing nature or Kensho.

[95:06]

That's why I said this is an authentic mainstream Zen teaching. If this is authentic mainstream Zen teaching, then what is Nanyo's teaching? Nanyo's idea of mind is fences, walls, pebbles, tiles and pebbles. And Dogen agrees with it. What is this? This is my big question. And I have no answer. That means my question can be, is Dogen Zen master or not? Well, is Dogen's teaching Zen or not? Please. So when you listen to Mazu's teaching, you could think, the point of practice is to stop thinking. Yeah, right. That is enlightenment. So, in Mazu's line, or even in Rinzai tradition, their teaching method is like a shouting, or hitting,

[96:12]

That is the way Masters help students stop thinking and awaken to that original mind. As far as we are thinking, we never reach or awaken to that original mind. So we have to stop thinking. But in Dogen's teaching, I think the basis of his teaching is at least a little different. Basically, Dogen doesn't think our thinking is caused by the wind of ignorance. But in Genjoko he said this is wind nature. makes the water into gold or green. And he called this the wind of the Buddha's family, Buddha's house.

[97:22]

So this wind is the nature. So nature is not something fixed or something eternal without motion. But in Dogen's teaching, our life is moving. And, you know, fences, walls, pebbles, and pebbles, means... Tiles and pebbles. That means all beings within the phenomenal world are the mind. That means we are connected with all beings within the network of interdependence origination. So to me, In the case of Dogen's teaching, this mind is the way our life is. That means interconnectedness. It's not something fixed within ourselves, but the way we are, that is, living together with all beings, supported each other, connected each other.

[98:40]

That is a fact, according to Endogen's understanding, that is a fact, true reality of all beings means, you know, through ten suchness. Everything is connected with everything, but each thing has its own unique form, nature, energy, function, and so on. Well, I'm sorry I talk too long. But I think this is a really important point to study Dogen's teaching. So, when Dogen quotes Huinan's saying that we study and understand the Lotus Sutra on the basis of jishin or self-mind, at least in Dogen's understanding, this shin, or mind, self-mind, is not this kind of mind.

[99:43]

But I think he interprets these sayings by Shuinan as he said in Genjo Koan, to study the Buddha way is to study the self. So we study what is said in the Lotus Sutra as to study the Self. Lotus Sutra is like a fantasy. There's not so much philosophical discussion, but it's a very interesting fantasy, images. So if we are not careful, we see this is some kind of show. That has nothing to do with me. But, as Dogen said in Genjo Koan, to study the Buddha way, and this sutra is very important, the Lotus Sutra is a very important sutra to study the Buddha way.

[100:49]

So we have to study on the basis of studying the Self. Who this is, what this is. I think that is how Dogen interprets this admonition by Huinan, as Buddha's darshanam, or Buddha's insight, is the mind of the self. That is what I have to say today, this morning. then I will continue to read Huenan's conversation.

[101:29]