Is it possible to put this in front of me? OK. OK. Good morning, everyone.

[01:08]

I'm really happy to be here again to share Dogen Zenji's teaching in Shobo Genzo. This time, We are going to study Shobo Genzo Hokketen Hokke. Linda-san asked me to study this first school. So in May, we had a genzoe at Sanshinji. And since then, I have been studying this first school. to understand and also I have been kind of suffering how to make this interesting to people who are not so familiar with Dogen's teaching and also the Lotus Sutra. And I found that to read understand appreciate and enjoy this first school we need some knowledge basic knowledge about the sutra the lotus sutra means

[02:27]

The Japanese character for the title of this fascicle is hokkei. Ten hokkei. Hokkei is one word. He repeats this, and pen is a verb. And Hokke is an abbreviation of Myoho Renge. Maybe it doesn't need kyo. Myoho-renge-kyo. Ho came from this word. Myoho-renge-kyo.

[03:55]

Myoho-renge-kyo is a Chinese translation of a Sanskrit word, sadharma. Dharma. Kundalika Sutra. So Hokke is an abbreviation of the title of this sutra. Ho and Ke come from this name. And Myoho Rengekyo is a translation of this Sanskrit word. And this Sadharma is Myoho Rengekyo. And Pundarika is the name of the flower, usually in English called a lotus, lotus flower. And Sutra is, I think you know what Sutra is, scripture. This Hokketen Hokke is Dogen's own expression based on Hui Nan, the six Chinese ancestors' expression, or Hui Nan's conversation with one of his disciples about the Lotus Sutra.

[05:22]

What Huinan said is hokke ten and ten hokke. Ten means, in my translation, turn. Huinan said, when our mind is deluded, we are turned by the sutra, by this dharma and flower. But he said, when our mind is enlightened, or in realization, we turn the dharma flower. This is what Huynan said in that conversation, and Dogen quoted that conversation, so I'm going to talk about their conversation later. But Dogen created this expression following Hyoinan's saying, when our mind is deluded, we are turned by dharma flower.

[06:33]

This he said, dharma flower turns. So dharma flower turns our mind. But he read, our minds are turned by dharma flower. And Tenhok is when our mind is in realization or enlightenment, we turn the dharma flower. And Dogen put these two expressions from Huynan into one and said, dharma flower turns dharma flower. This means our mind disappeared. Our mind or I or me disappeared. Only dharma flower are there. It's not a matter of we are turned by dharma flower or we turn the dharma flower, but In either case, dharma flower turn dharma flower.

[07:35]

So this is very unique expression of Dogen using Huinan's sayings. So both Huinan and Dogen in this fascicle talks about this sutra, Myoho Renge Kyoho, or Sadharma Pundalika Sutra. And if you read this fascicle, you'll find he, quote, picked up so many phrases and expressions from the Lotus Sutra. So unless we know what each and every of those phrases means or used within the context of this sutra, we don't really understand what Dogen is talking about. And even before that, unless we understand what basically the Lotus Sutra want to say, we don't really understand what Huy Ne is saying and what Dogen want to teach.

[08:51]

So first, as an introduction, I'd like to talk about the Lotus Sutra. But before that, I would like to mention this fascicle, Hokketen Hokke, is a kind of very unique fascicle among Dogen's Shobo Genzo. Dogen's Shobo Genzo, in the final collection, has 95 fascicles or volumes or chapters. But this 95 fascicle version was made in the 19th century, in Tokugawa period. But modern scholars think this, You know, this is not, how can I say, Dogen's original idea of making Shobo Genzo.

[10:02]

Dogen tried to, before he died, Dogen tried to make 100 fascicles of Shobo Genzo. And traditionally, it is said he finished writing 75 fascicles. So he temporarily made these 75 fascicles as one collection. And in order to make 100 fascicles, he continued to write. Probably he planned to write 25 more. But when he finished 12 fascicles, he died. So in Dogen's lifetime, Shobo Genzo is incomplete collection of his writings or essays.

[11:06]

This 75 to 12 makes 87. This is the original, but when people in the 18th and 19th century tried to make the final complete version of Shobo Genzo, they wanted to make as close as to 100. So they collect other writings of Dogen and included in Shobo Genzo. That's why it become 95. But there is another collections of Shobo Genzo that is 60 fasciculus version and 28 fasciculus version. And still, even Dogen's scholar doesn't know exactly what the connection or relation between these two groups.

[12:22]

Traditionally, it is said, you know, after Dogen's death, there are some conflict at Eheiji. between third and fourth ancestors of Eheiji. The third abbot was Gikai, and the fourth was Gien. Somehow, because of this conflict, the third abbot has to leave Eheiji. And he moved to Daijoji, and Gikai's disciple was Keizan. But the fourth abbot, whose name was Gi-en, when he died, Eheji was kind of small, and Eheji also had a fire. So the fifth abbot of Eheji was Gi-un.

[13:31]

Fourth abbot, Gi-en, passed away and Gi-hun became the fifth abbot, it seems a phase didn't have a collection of Shobu Genzo. So this person, Gi-hun, collected as many fascicles of Shobu Genzo. So traditionally this set was collected by Gi-hun. And somehow he made 60 volumes or fascicles version, and 28 volumes was kind of hidden in the storage at the age. And the later people, later scholars thought, you know, within these 28 fascicles, Dogen criticized other people. So they said Giun didn't want to make such fascicles public.

[14:41]

But we don't know it. That was just a guess. Anyway, this Hokketen-Hokke is not included within this 87. Hokketen-Hokke was 12th fascicle of 60 fascicle version of Shobo Genzo. And another unique thing, unique point about this Hokketen Hokke is this writing, Fashikuru, was written for one person. As you read in the end of this Fashikuru, Dogen wrote this Hokketen Hokke for one person, whose name was Etatsu. probably when he was ordained as a priest or a monk.

[15:45]

And I don't know why Dogen, not only me, but no one knows why Dogen specially wrote this kind of interesting fascicle for this particular person. Only this is my guess. only kind of a connection between this person, we know nothing about this person. Probably he was one of Dogen's disciples, but we know nothing, we have no information about this person. But this is my guess, you know, the conversation between Huinnan, the sixth ancestor, And one of his monks, this monk's name in Japanese was Hotatsu. And this person's name is Etatsu.

[16:50]

Ho means dharma, and tatsu means penetration. And E means wisdom, and Tatsu also means penetration. So the name of the monk who talked, who had conversation with Hu Ngan, and this person's name is pretty similar. And if this person was ordained by Dogen himself, then probably Dogen chose this name following this person's name. There's no evidence about this, but this is only my fantasy, my guess. So probably he was very interested in the Lotus Sutra. Probably that was why Dogen wrote this writing, Hokketei Hokke, especially for this person.

[17:58]

So in this handout, at the very end, On page 22, the second from the last, it said . But probably this was added later by the people who collect the 60 or 95 fascicle versions. Please. In the copy that I have, there's only 18 pages. I'm sorry. I don't know if I'm the only one. You need to refer to the jumper of the section.

[19:00]

OK. OK. Before paragraph 31, there is a title of this first group, Shobo Genzo Hokketen Hokkei. I think this is the addition by the people who put this fascicle into 60 or 95 collections. And after that, he talks, Dogen wrote about this person, A. Tatsu. And he said this was written in 1241. And afterward, at the very end of this fascicle, again it is said, written by the founding monk of Kannon Dōri Kōshō Hōrinji, Ashuramana who entered Song China and transmitted the Dharma, and Kama and Dōgen,

[20:13]

But in the original draft, this name, Dogen, is not there. But what is said is Gyoumei. Gyou makes this thing honorific. So Gyomei means honorific name. That means Dogen's. So this was also written by someone who copied this draft. And after that it said Zai Go Ham. I didn't translate this, but Zai Go Ham means there is a Dogen's stamp. So obviously, this was written as a kind of personal writing to this particular person.

[21:19]

So probably Dogen had no intention this writing would be included in Shobo Genzo. So this is like a letter to this person on the occasion of this person's ordination, one's ordination. But later, someone, giun, made this a part of Shobo Genzo. That is one unique point of this fascicle. And also in the very beginning, after the title, the dharma flower turns the dharma flower. It said, written by So and So at Koshoji. I don't think Dogen wrote So and So. So and So is Bo Ko.

[22:24]

means someone or so and so. I don't think Dogen didn't write his name as so and so. So this one also written by someone who copied this fascicle. So that is the kind of a uniqueness of this writing among the Dogen's writings. Now I start to talk about the Lotus Sutra. I use this translation. The title of this book is The Threefold Lotus Sutra. I use this because this translation was made by Japanese scholars and Americans together. So it's close to Japanese understanding of the Lotus Sutra.

[23:34]

And I have another three translations of the Lotus Sutra. Those are translated by Americans. I don't think this is necessarily a better translation as the English translation. But to me this is kind of useful. Anyway, Lotus Sutra is one of the early Mahayana sutras. Ari Mahayana means probably I need to talk a little bit about the history of Buddhism and where Mahayana Buddhism appeared.

[24:38]

Shakyamuni Buddha lived probably 5 to 4 BCE, before the Common Era. And about 100 years, you know, his sangha continued to be one Sangha without any division or separation. But after 100, the famous Indian emperor, King Ashoka, protected and supported Buddhism. So Buddhism become very flourished. and spread all over India. And that was a problem.

[25:45]

Soon after that, Buddhist Sangha divided into two parts. One is called Theravada. Another is called Mahasangha, Sanghika. So until this separation, we call this early Buddhism. And after this separation, you know, this more and more separated or divided into 18 sects. I don't know sects is a right English word or not. Yes, it is. So basically what monks did after Buddha's death,

[26:50]

is, you know, he, they, when Buddha died, 500 alhat were there. And they collected Buddha's teachings. It said Ananda recited what he heard from the Buddha. He had a very good memory, so he memorized everything he heard. And he was also Shakyamuni's personal attendant for many years. So he listened to all of Buddha's teachings, and he had a very good memory, and he memorized everything. and after Shakyamuni died he decided what he had and then other 500 alhats agreed or approved those teachings decided by Ananda became the sutra and in the beginning they didn't

[28:09]

write down. In India, they already had characters, but they didn't write down. They memorized everything for a few hundred years. That is one of the collections of Buddhist scriptures called Sutra. And another person collection of Buddhist scripture is called Vinaya. Vinaya is a precept. Shakyamuni was alive and many people became his disciples. Shakyamuni established a monastery. And they had many monks. Somehow monks made mistakes.

[29:12]

And each time monks made mistakes, Buddha said, don't do such a thing again. And correction of those mistakes and Buddha's admonition, don't do that, became Vinaya. So there are 2,250 precepts for female monks, and more than that, 300 or so for female monks. Those are all the result or fruits of monks' mistakes. And they are memorized, collected as a Vinaya, and transmitted without writing, without being written. And another one, the third category of Buddhist scripture is called Abhidharma. Abhidharma is a collection of monks' discussions about what Buddha taught.

[30:24]

So this is like a commentary on the sutras. So those three, sutra, vinaya, and abhidharma, are called three baskets of Buddhist scriptures. So after Shakyamuni died, what monks in their sangha basically do is, of course, continue to practice meditation and keeping the tradition of precept and study, memorize and study the scriptures and interpret those scriptures. especially after King Ashoka, because Buddhist Sangha was supported by the emperor. They didn't worry about provisions.

[31:33]

They are fully supported. So the monks, Buddhist monks, didn't need to have so much contact with lay people, lay society. They could stay in the monastery and focus on meditation and studying. meditation and studying Dharma. That was basically what monks have been doing. And there is another kind of a Buddhist practice outside of monks' sangha. You know, when Shakyamuni died, The Buddha said after he died, the funeral should be taken care of by laypeople. So, you know, lay people did, of course monks were there, but, you know, when Buddha's body was cremated, burned, those lay people from different regions, said eight groups from different regions in India, divided Buddha's relics.

[33:04]

And when they returned to their own place, they constructed a monument called stupa. So stupa, originally stupa is taken care of by lay people. And one of the things King Ashoka did was he constructed many stupas all over India. It said he divided Buddha's relics into small parts. But maybe Buddha's relics were not so much. So probably some of them are without real relics. Anyway, these stupas are constructed in important places.

[34:11]

in the life of Shakyamuni, such as where Buddha was born, that was Rumbini. During the Oryoki meal, at the very beginning we chant, Buddha was born in Rumbini, enlightened in Magadha, and taught at Varanasi, and entered Nirvana in Kushinagara. Those four places are most important places in Shakyamuni's life. So at those places and many other places, they built stupas. And what the lay people mainly did one of the lay people's practice was making pilgrimage to those important places of Buddha. So they visited Stutas and pay homage to the Buddha.

[35:21]

And some And it said some people taking care of, took care of stupas. Of course, there must be some people, some caretakers of stupas. Caretaker of the stupa itself and also people who take care of the visitors. And so there are some group of people work around the stupas. And in the history, what those people did was making Buddha's biography, talks about what Buddha did. not only within this final lifetime, after he was born as a siddhartha, as a prince of a small kingdom. But those people believed Buddha was too great to become such a spiritual teacher within one lifetime.

[36:33]

So they started to think Buddha must practice for many lifetimes before the final one. And they used many different tales, folk tales. They collected folk stories from many different regions. and collect more than 500 such stories about, and they said that was what Shakyamuni did in his past lives. And those, a collection of those stories were called Jataka. Jataka. because they collected more than 500 stories, and each story said this was Shakyamuni in his previous life.

[37:39]

So people started to think Buddha practiced more than 500 lifetimes. And they also made the beginning, beginning of Buddha's practice as bodhisattva. Bodhisattva is Pali and bodhisattva is Sanskrit. And they said originally when he allows the bodhicitta and become bodhisattva, his name was person whose name was Sumedha. And then this person, young person Sumedha, met a Buddha whose name was Dipankara. I wrote this story in my book, Living by Vow.

[38:45]

When Sumedha met Dipankara, he allowed bodhicitta, and he vowed to become like Dipankara Buddha. So he wanted, he desired, or aspired to become a Buddha. And of course, Dipankara Buddha has disciples, monks, but somehow Sumedha didn't want to be Buddha's disciples, so he didn't become Buddhist monk. according to the story, because he said, Sumedha thought, if I became Buddhist monk, Deepankara Buddha disciple, and study and practice, then I could achieve the realization and liberation, and I could enter nirvana. That is what Buddha taught for arahat.

[39:51]

When they reach the rank of arahat, they are released from this transmigration within samsara. That is what entering nirvana means. But this person, Sumedha, thought, that is not right to me. He doesn't, that means, if he became a Buddhist monk, called Shravaka, means disciples, and attain emancipation, and released from samsara, and enter nirvana, He couldn't help people. He couldn't become Buddha. So intentionally he didn't become Buddhist monk. In order to become Buddha, he needed to stay in samsara and help living beings within samsara.

[41:00]

That's why he transmigrated within samsara for more than 500 lifetimes to help those living beings. This story was included in the Pali Nikaya. But I think this story has some connection with the beginning of Mahayana Buddhism. Anyway, that kind of story about Buddha's lives, not only one final life, but Buddha's lifetimes as Buddha practiced as bodhisattva, that was the original kind of inspiration and image for the people who

[42:05]

kind of created Mahayana Buddhism. But in the Pali, Bodhisattva is only one person, Shakyamuni. And after Shakyamuni died, there's no possibility for any human beings to become Buddha. until this person, next Buddha, Maitreya, appeared in this world. That was many years later, many kalpas later. So after Shakyamuni died, people thought they lived in the age without Buddha. There's no possibility Buddha appeared until Maitreya. Next question. So Chiataka is a fiction story.

[43:08]

Yes. Next one is, you said Abhidharma is what Buddha taught. What's the difference between Abhidharma and... Abhidharma is a commentary on what Buddha taught, commentary or interpretation of what Buddha taught. Well, please. I just thought that the story of Sumedha, is it included also in the canon of the Theravadan? Yes. Parinikaya is Theravadan. And Jataka is a part of Pali, Pali canon. I just asked that because they never put the Bodhisattva aspiration so high, but they still have it in there. Yes, yes. But of course it's not the original Nikaya, I mean original collection of what Buddha taught.

[44:10]

This was probably started to made after at least two or three hundred years after Buddha's death. And it's written in Pali and written in Sanskrit. So same kind of story exists in Pali Nikaya and also Chinese translation. So about, you know, these stories about what Buddha did as a bodhisattva in his previous lives, and after he was born in India, you know, about the praising Buddha's life, respecting what Buddha did, you know, there's no, you know, there are many sect here and they have different understanding about Buddhist philosophy that was one of the reasons they become separated but about respecting Shakyamuni and worshipping in a sense worshipping Shakyamuni all those sect has no argument I think we understand that

[45:35]

So the same kind of stories are transmitted in Theravada and also Mahayana. Anyway, that is what has been doing among the groups who took care of stupas. And some Japanese scholars in the second half of 20th century thought these people is the origin of Mahayana Buddhism. So Mahayana Buddhism was originally a lay Buddhism. And they thought, when they think they understand what Buddha did in this way, I think they started to see what the monks did, what different from what Shakyamuni did.

[46:41]

You know, monks were like living in a monastery and studying and receiving precepts, and keep the precepts, and study Buddhist teaching, Buddha's teaching. and made a commentary. As a part of their practice, they had always debate or discussion. And Abhidharma is a collection of all that kind of discussion. Please. Of the 18 sects, were any of those sects lay sects? No, these are all monks' sangha. And of course also lay people supported the monks. So, you know, Japanese Buddhist scholars thought this is the origin of Mahayana Buddhism.

[47:48]

But later the Western scholars disagreed. Disagreed. American Buddhist scholars such as Jan Nakie, those scholars think Mahayana Buddhism cannot be made only by lay people. So they thought some monks who aspire to become Buddha, like Buddha, they left monastery and practice in a very strict way. and they aspire to become Buddha, following this kind of, this image of Shakyamuni. Those Western scholars think that was the origin of Mahayana Buddhism. But I think the number of such monks must be very small. So those monks aspire to practice like Buddha.

[48:49]

And those people who respect and even worship Buddha, I think, have connection. It's like a demand and supply. And they, I think, together, without either of them, Mahayana Buddhism couldn't be made in the way it was made. Because Mahayana Buddhist sutras have a very deep understanding of dharma. And I don't think lay people could have such a deep understanding of Dharma. So there must be some monks and lay people who work together. And they kind of created new kind of Buddhism. And that was happened about first BCE or first CE.

[50:04]

That means about 400 years after Buddha Shakyamuni's death. And around this time, Mahayana Buddhists started to create their own sutras, such as Prajnaparamita. Prajnaparamita, the Heart Sutra, is a very small part of Prajnaparamita Sutras. Prajnaparamita might be the first, earliest Mahayana sutras. and something like Vimalakirti. And this one, Lotus Sutra, and the Apatamsaka Sutra, or Kegon-kyo, or Flower Adornment Sutra, Ornament Sutra.

[51:10]

And also the Pure Land Buddhist Sutras were made around this time And those sutras are called Arimahayana Sutras. And the interesting thing is, as I said, those three categories of Buddhist scriptures were transmitted without being written. People, monks, memorize everything and transmit it. And yet Parinikāya was all started to write down around the same time. So Parinikāya as a written document, written text, Parinikāya and Mahayana sutras are made around the same time. Could you spell the Parinikāya?

[52:16]

Pari. This is a collection of Buddhist scriptures within Theravada tradition. first prajna texts, one of the earliest was Diamond Sutra. But there must be some older one. Anyway, this is how Mahayana Buddhism appeared in the history of Buddhism. Theravada tradition. Theravada tradition came from this tradition.

[53:18]

Theravada is one of the 18 sects. And King Ashoka sent some monks to Sri Lanka. And from Sri Lanka, And from Sri Lanka, it went to south-eastern countries such as Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia. That became Theravada Buddhism. He also sent his daughters, didn't he? Yes. His daughter went to Sri Lanka, yes. And probably his... Younger brother also, I'm not sure. And King Ashoka also sent Buddhist monk to Alexandria, to the West. But somehow, in the West, Buddhism didn't took up root.

[54:23]

But there must be some influence in the West. Anyway, this is what happened before Mahayana Buddhism appeared in the history of India. Can you tell me more about why the smaller group of monks left and then ended up bonding with the lay people? Why did they do that? Probably he didn't like so much, like a Buddhist monastery became like a university. They focus on meditation and studying scriptures or Buddhist philosophies, and they felt there's not much contact with people in the society, I guess. And that was the main criticism from Mahayana Buddhism to those traditional sangha.

[55:30]

You said the Pali Nikaya and the Mahayana came about the same time, the writing down. Were the Mahayana scriptures oral at first? Were they written at the beginning? I am not sure, but probably written from the beginning. Or probably those people just start to speak to the visitors and those stories about what Buddha did and what Buddha taught. And probably shortly after that, they started to write down. I'm not sure. So this is how Mahayana Buddhism appeared, and the lotus sutra is one of those early Mahayana sutras. Before I start to talk on the lotus sutra itself, I'd like to talk what is at least one important point of what was the point of this movement.

[56:57]

And this is my understanding, so I don't know if it's really true or not. But one point within this movement, I think, is helpful to understand what happened here in this process, is the basic structure of what Buddha taught. When I give lectures on the precepts, at San Shinji we have a precept retreat in July each year. And we have a five-day precept retreat, and I give lectures on the precepts. If we have someone who wanted to receive the precept, we have the jukai or precept receiving ceremony at the end of this retreat.

[58:10]

So as a responsibility of a preceptor, I need to explain the meaning of the precept. And within the precept it said, unless people understand the meaning of the precept and they want to receive, we cannot give. So each year I talk about the precept. And whenever I talk about the precept, I start to talk on this very famous verse from Dhammapada. I think all of you already know this one. I think all of you know this verse. It's very famous. And the verse is, Do not what is evil.

[59:18]

Do what is good. Keep your mind pure. This is the teaching of Buddha. You know, this is English translation from Pali, but there is a Chinese translation of the same verse. And the first line is, do not do any evil or unwholesome or bad or wrong. And Dogen Zenji wrote a first quote of Shobo Genzo entitled, Do not do any evil. So this verse is very important in both Pali, Nikaya, and also in Mahayana Buddhism, at least in Dogen's teachings. And the meaning of this verse looks very clear.

[60:22]

First, Buddha said, don't do any evil and do or practice everything good and keep your mind pure. This is the teaching of all Buddhas. In the Chinese translation, it's ze shou bukkyo. Shou butsu means all Buddhas, all Buddhas' teaching. So this is considered the teaching by all Buddhas. this meaning of this verse seems very simple, we should not evil, and we should do everything good, and we should keep our mind pure. And that is what all Buddha taught. But this, at least according to one interpretation, this verse is not so simple.

[61:25]

I have to explain. At least according to one interpretation, this very short and simple verse includes two sets of Buddha's teaching, two different sets of Buddha's teaching. First and second, do everything good and do nothing bad or evil, is one set. That means we should make distinction between good and bad, and we should do good. But the third line, keep our mind pure, according to that interpretation, means we should go beyond good and bad. So it's not so simple. one set of teaching, first and second, we should do good and we should not do bad.

[62:36]

In order to do good instead of evil, we have to make a distinction for discrimination between good and bad. And the third line, keep our mind pure. This purity of mind means beyond discrimination. And this is not really an interpretation by some later people, but this is from the collection of verses in Dhammapada. Dhammapada is one of the oldest Buddhist scriptures existing both in Pali Nikaya and Chinese translation. Buddha taught these two sides. One is do good and not do evil, and another is go beyond good and bad.

[63:45]

I can find many examples of these two sets. First, I introduce some verses or teachings from Dhammapada. Buddha taught we should do good and not do evil. For example, if we want to check Dhammapada ink, verse 53, Shakyamuni said, as from a large heap of flowers, as from a large heap of flowers, many garlands and wreaths can be made. So by a mortal, mortal means living beings, in this life there is much good work to be done. Much good work to be done. Good work to be done.

[64:49]

So he encouraged to do good thing. And verse 116, Buddha said, Make haste and do what is good. Make haste, hurry, and do what is good. Keep your mind away from evil. If a man is slow in doing good, his mind finds pleasure in evil. And another one, verse 119 and 120. A man may find pleasure in evil, as long as his evil has not given fruit. But when the fruit of evil comes, then that man finds evil indeed.

[65:58]

And 120. A man may find pain in doing good, as long as his good has not given fruit. But when the fruit of good comes, then that man finds good indeed. We can find this kind of teaching in many verses in Dhammapada. But Buddha Shakyamuni also said we should go beyond good and bad. Verse 126. Sakyamuni said, Some people are born on this earth

[67:01]

Those who do evil are reborn in hell. So this is a causality. When we do evil, we need to be born in hell. And the righteous go to heaven. And people who do good will be born in heaven. But those who are pure reach nirvana. Do you understand? If we do good, we will be born in heaven. If we do evil, we will be born in hell. other realms between heaven and hell. So depending upon what we do, or depending on the nature of our actions, our activities, within the causality, cause and result, we will be born in the heaven, or in the hell, or in between.

[68:27]

This is one set of teaching. But Buddha, in the third line, I mean final, fourth line, Buddha said, but those who are pure enter nirvana. Enter those who are pure. But those who are pure enter. And reach nirvana. Reach nirvana. So these are two sets of teachings. One is causality. When we do good, we will be born in heaven, and if we do evil, we will be born in hell. This is one teaching within samsara. So within samsara, we should try to do good and be born in heaven instead of going to hell. This is one set of teaching. And another set of teaching by Shakyamuni was go beyond good and bad.

[69:36]

Then we'll reach nirvana. Please, you have some questions? You just answered my question. Okay. So these are two sets of teachings. And traditionally, these two sets of teachings are interpreted or understood as this side of teaching, do good and not do evil, is for lay people. And... Only monks could reach nirvana because only monks could go beyond good and bad. You know, this is a problem. It's a big problem. But, you know, this two set of teachings, I think, have been working in the Asian Buddhist countries.

[70:42]

You know, especially in this structure, monks studied dharma and practiced meditation, and therefore they could go beyond good and bad. But when lay people live in the society, they cannot avoid doing good or not good, or wholesome or unwholesome. No, they have to always make choice. In order to make choice, they have to always make distinction between what is good and what is not good. And Buddha taught we should choose doing good things, wholesome things, in order to be born in heaven. Otherwise, we need to go to hell, or somewhere between heaven and hell. Please. Just to be the devil's advocate here.

[71:46]

If you go beyond choice, you have to have a choice. If you're living in a place where there's no choice, you can't go beyond choice. That is what I'm going to say. That is what I'm going to talk. That is the problem for Mahayana Buddhists. You know, by... And these two, excuse me, are two sets of teachings. And one teaching about causality and transmigration, in Japanese, it's called Seken Hou. And the second, Go Beyond Good and Bad and Reach Nirvana, is called Shoseken. Shutsu. This is second. And ho is dharma.

[72:49]

And second means world. So second ho is worldly dharma. And shutsu is get out, leave, or beyond. Beyond worldly dharma. I have two questions. Which one? Before a second. That word. Shutsu. Sorry. Shutsu. Shutsu means leave, to get out. It's meaning like beyond duality. Yes. This is worldly dharma is duality, good and bad. Not necessarily just physical actions. that we want to make choices to go beyond a too non-realistic way of thinking, which reminds me of Bukkana Medanji, where it weighs down into this area of... Yeah, that is a teaching in the Mahayana Buddhism.

[73:57]

Now I talk about teaching in the Arya Buddhism. And this second hall is called Raukika. in Sanskrit. And is called . That means beyond world. Beyond world. Beyond world. So these two set of teachings, one is teaching for people in the world. Oh, sorry. And another is people who left the world. So there are, you know, this is actually in the Asian Buddhist countries, these two set of teaching works have been working.

[75:04]

You know, they Buddhist. in Asia have been doing is visiting stupas and make, worship the Buddha, and make donation or offerings. And many people, even in Japan, still believe when we do good things, then we can be born in heaven. And they don't expect going, reaching nirvana. Please. So it sounds like, simply put, lay people can learn to be more comfortable in samsara. And monks can go beyond samsara and leave samsara. Is that right? I guess so. Please. Guruji, you mentioned that this model has worked quite well in Asian Buddhist countries.

[76:13]

What about for Western countries? That is our question. So we have to think, and this can be the kind of foundation or materials we can consider often. create, in a sense, create not Western, but create the Buddhism for 21st century, both Western and Eastern. For all countries? For all human beings. I mean, what Mahayana people wanted to say is, this is not right. This structure is not right. How can we integrate these two? That is the point of Mahayana Buddhism. That is what I am trying to say.

[77:15]

And that is the main point of the teachings in the Lotus Sutra. How can these two sets of teachings into one? That is what ekhyana or one vehicle Buddhism means. Please. Could one assume that monks were grounded in the precepts and behavior before they go beyond the right and wrong? So it's not like they're abandoning behavioral precepts. I'm assuming through monastic life they've kind of embodied them. Of course, you know, to the people, to the monks who aspire to go beyond good and bad, Buddha requests to receive at least 250 precepts. So go beyond good and bad doesn't mean we can do bad.

[78:17]

But going beyond good and bad, this is what I always said when I talk about precepts. Going beyond good and bad means do good without clinging to our good actions and without hatred against other people's unwholesome actions. So going beyond doesn't mean it's okay to do bad. But going beyond means do good without clinging to good. And do good without anger or hatred against people who do unwholesome things. In that sense, Buddha never said it's OK to do bad or evil. So from the very beginning, both worldly or beyond worldly teachings, Buddha never said it's OK to do unwholesome.

[79:30]

Anyway, that is my understanding. That is what people who created Mahayana Buddhism thought. How can these two can be combined and become one? What is heaven or hell? I don't know. I've never been there. But in my understanding, heaven and hell or other realms, six realms of samsara, traditionally it's said there are such worlds or realms, and after we die we will be born one of them, depending upon what we do within this lifetime.

[80:36]

If you can believe this traditional Buddhist teaching, that's fine. Then we try not to do unholy things. Or if we could go beyond good and bad, we can reach nirvana. at least some people, including myself, cannot believe in such kind of a rebirth. And there are such six worlds before and after our life. So in my understanding, six realms is the condition of our mind, You know, when we encounter something, we feel, you know, I like this, or I think this is important or meaningful.

[81:44]

And when I encounter something we don't like, or which gives us a negative sensation, then I don't want to be with this, or often I want to escape from this, but somehow those negative things come to me without my agreement. So I become angry, angry against this, And I hate this. So we divided things happening in our life as positive and negative, meaningful, meaningless, valuable and valueless. And we chase after something we like or we feel good or valuable. And we try to escape. from something we don't want or we don't appreciate.

[82:47]

You know, this like and dislike makes our life running, running after something we want or running or escaping from something we don't want. And we are always running. And this running, chasing after something or escaping from something makes our life samsara. That means, you know, sometimes we feel everything we want is with me. So I feel like heavenly beings. Everything is okay. But more often we don't feel in such a way. And even if we have something we want, but our desire becomes larger and we want more and more.

[83:54]

This makes us hungry ghosts. Or sometimes we feel like a hell. Everything we do, everything we encounter, everything we experience is simply suffering or meaningless. And our condition of our life is always changing, so we have to always transmigrate. Not only six realms, but numberless different realms. That means depending upon our condition, we are transmigrating from heaven to hell. That is my understanding of heaven and hell. Is this the answer to your question? If you can believe there are such six realms objectively and we are traveling life after life, that's fine.

[84:59]

That is traditional Buddhist teaching. But even we cannot believe that kind of reverse, but Buddha's teaching of transmigration based on our desire and causality makes sense. That is my understanding of... transmigration, where it's almost 11.30. I didn't start to talk about the Lotus Sutra. So in the afternoon I started to talk on the Lotus Sutra.

[85:40]

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