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Is it possible to... Good morning, everyone.


I'm really happy to be here again to share Dogen Zenji's teaching in Shobo Genzo. This time, we are going to study Shobo Genzo Hokke Ten Hokke. Linda-san asked me to study this first group. So, in May, we had a Genzo-e at Sanshinji. And since then, I have been studying this fascicle to understand. And also, I have been kind of suffering. How to make, you know, this interesting to... people who are not so familiar with Dogen's teaching and also the Lotus Sutra. And I found that to read, understand, appreciate, and enjoy this fascicle, we need some knowledge, basic knowledge about the sutra, the Lotus Sutra.


Hokke ten hokke means... I have to write. Can I put this down here? The Japanese character for the title of this fascicle is Hokke Ten Hokke. Hokke is one word. He repeats this, and ten is a verb. And hokke is an abbreviation of myoho-renge-kyo.


Myoho-renge-kyo. You know, ho came from this word. Myo-ho-ren-ge-kyo. Myo-ho-ren-ge-kyo is a Chinese translation of a Sanskrit word, sadharma, kundalika. Sutra. So, Hokke is an abbreviation of the title of this sutra. Ho and Ke come from this name. And Myoho Rengikyo is a translation of this Sanskrit word.


And this sadharma is Myoho. And Kundalika is the name of the flower. usually in English called a lotus, lotus flower. And sutra is, I think you know what sutra is, scripture. So, this Hokketen Hokke is Dogen's own expression. based on Huinan, the six Chinese ancestors' expression or Huinan's conversation with one of his disciples about the Lotus Sutra. What Huinan said is Hokke Ten and Ten Hokke. Ten means, in my translation, ten. Hyo Inan said, when our mind is deluded, we are turned by the sutra, by this dharma and flower.


But he said, when our mind is enlightened, or in realization, we turn the Dharma flower. This is what Huinan said in that conversation, and Dogen quote that conversation, so I'm going to talk about their conversation later. But he, Dogen, created this expression following Hyoinan's saying, when we are, our mind is deluded, we are turned by Dharma flower. This is said, Dharma flower turns, so Dharma flower turns our mind. But he read, we, our mind are turned by Dharma flower. And Tenhokke is when our mind is in realization or enlightenment, we turn the Dharma flower.


And Dogen put these two expressions from Huinan into one. And said, Dharma flower turns Dharma flower. This means our mind disappeared. Our mind, or I, or me, disappeared. Only dharma flower are there. It's not a matter of we are turned by dharma flower, or we turn the dharma flower. In either case, Dharma flower turns into Dharma flower. So this is a very unique expression of Dogen, using Huinan's sayings. So, both Huinan and Dogen, in this fascicle, talk about this sutra, Myoho Renge Kyo, or Sadharma Pundarika Sutra. And if you read this fascicle, you'll find he, quote, picked up so many phrases and expressions from the Lotus Sutra.


So, unless we know what each and every of those phrases means, or used within the context of this sutra, we don't really understand what Dogen is talking about. And even before that, unless we understand what basically the Lotus Sutra wants to say, we don't really understand what Huinen is saying and what Dogen wants to teach. So, first, as an introduction, I'd like to talk about the Lotus Sutra. But before that, I would like to mention this fascicle, Tenhokkei, is a kind of very unique fascicle among Dogen's Shobo Genzo.


Dogen's Shobo Genzo, in the final collection, has 95 fascicles or volumes or chapters. But this 95 fascicle version was made in the 19th century, in the Tokugawa period. But modern scholars think this This is not, how can I say, Dogen's original idea of making shobu genzo. Dogen tried to, before he died, Dogen tried to make 100 fascicles of shobu genzo. And traditionally it is said that he finished writing 75 fascicles.


So he temporarily made these 75 fascicles as one collection. And in order to make 100 fascicles, he continued to write. Probably he planned to write 25 more. But when he finished 12 fascicles, he died. So, in Bogen's lifetime, Cho Bogenzo is incomplete collection of his writings or essays. So, This 75 to 12 makes 87. This is the original, but when people in the 18th and 19th century tried to make the final, complete version of Shobo Genzo, they wanted to make as close as to 100.


So they collect other writings of Dogen and include it in Shobo Genzo. That file has become 95. But there is another collection of Shobo Genzo that is 60 fasciculus versions and 28 fasciculus versions. And still, even Dogen's scholar doesn't know exactly the connection or relation between these two groups. Traditionally, it is said, you know, after Dogen's death, there was some conflict at Eheiji. between 3rd and 4th ancestors of Eheiji.


3rd abbot was Gikai, and 4th was Gi-en. Somehow, because of this conflict, Gikai, the 3rd abbot, had to leave Eheiji. And he moved to Daijoji, and Gikai's disciple was Keizan. But the fourth avatar, whose name was Gi-en, when he died, Ehe-ji was kind of small, and it seemed that Ehe-ji also had a fire. So the fifth avatar of Ehe-ji was Gi-un. The fourth avatar, Gi-en, passed away, and Ryun became the fifth abbot, it seems, A.K.S. didn't have a collection of Shogo Genzo.


So this person, Ryun, collected as many fascicles of Shogo Genzo. So, traditionally, this set was collected by Ryun. And somehow he made 60 volumes or fascicles version and 28 volumes was kind of hidden in the storage or at the age. And the later people, later scholars thought, you know, within these 28 fascicles, Dogen criticize other people. So they said Gion didn't want to make such first cruise public. But we don't know. That was just a guess. Anyway, this Tenhokkei is not included within this 87.


Hoketen Hoke was the 12th fascicle of 60 fascicle versions of Shubo Genzo. And another unique thing, unique point about this Hoketen Hoke is this writing, fascicle, was written for one person. As you read in the end of this fascicle, Dogen wrote this tenhokke for one person whose name was Etatsu. Probably when he was ordained as a priest or a monk. And I don't know why Dogen, not only me, but no one knows why Dogen specially wrote this kind of interesting versicle for this particular person.


Only, this is my guess, only kind of a connection between this person. We know nothing about this person. Probably he was one of Dogen's disciples. But we know nothing. We have no information about this person. But this is my guess. You know, the conversation between Huinan, the sixth ancestor, and one of his monks. This monk's name in Japanese was Hotatsu. And this person's name is Eitatsu. Ho means dharma, and tatsu means penetration. And E means wisdom, and tatsu also means penetration.


So the name of the monk who talked, who had a conversation with Huinan, and this person's name is pretty similar. And if this person was ordained by Dogen himself, then probably Dogen chose this name following this person's name. There's no evidence about this, but this is only my fantasy, my guess. So probably he was very interested in the Lotus Sutra. Probably that was why Dogen wrote this writing, Hokke Te Hokke, especially for this person. So in this handout, at the very end, On page 22, the second from the last, it says, shobo genzo hokketen hokke.


But probably this was added later by the people who collect the 60 or 95 physical versions, please. Okay. Okay. Before paragraph 31, you know, there is a title of this fascicle, Shobo Genzo Hokke Ten Hokke. I think this is the addition by the people who put this fascicle into 60 or 95 collections. And after that he talks, Dogen wrote about this person, Eitatsu.


And he said this was written in 1241. And after this, after word, At the very end of this fascicle, again it is said, written by the founding monk of Kannon-dōri-kōshō-hō-rinji, Ashura-mana who entered Song China and transmitted the Dharma, and Kama and Dōgen. But in their original draft, this name, Dōgen, is not there. what is said is Gyo-mei. Gyo makes this thing honorific.


So Gyo-mei means honorific name. That means Dogens. So this was also written by someone who copied this draft. And after that it said, zai go ham. I didn't translate this, but zai go ham means there is a dog and stamp. Obviously, this was written as a kind of personal writing to this particular person. So probably Dogen had no intention this writing would be included in Shobo Genzo. So this is like a letter to this person on the occasion of this person's ordination.


one coordination. But later, someone, Gion, made this a part of Shobo Genzo. That is one unique point of this first group. And also, in the very beginning, after the title, the dharma flower turned into a dharma flower, written by So and So at Koshoji. I don't think Dogen wrote So and So. So and So is Boko. Boko means someone, or so-and-so. I don't think Dogen didn't write his name as so-and-so. So this one also written by someone who copied this fascicle.


So that is the kind of uniqueness of this writing among the Dogen's writings. Now I start to talk about the Lotus Sutra. I use this translation. The title of this book is The Threefold Lotus Sutra. I use this because this translation was made by Japanese scholars and Americans together. So it's close to Japanese understanding of the Lotus Sutra. And I have another three translations of the Lotus Sutra. Those are translated by Americans. I don't think this is necessarily a better translation as the English translation.


But to me, this is kind of useful. Anyway, Lotus Sutra is one of the early Mahayana sutras. Early Mahayana means, probably I need to talk a little bit about the history of Buddhism and where Mahayana Buddhism appeared. Shakyamuni Buddha lived probably five to four BCE, before common era. And about 100 years, his sangha continued to be one sangha without any division or separation.


But after 100, You know, the famous Indian emperor, King Ashoka, protected and supported Buddhism. So Buddhism became very flourished and spread all over India. And that was a problem. Soon after that, Buddhist Sangha divided into two parts. One is called Theravada. Another is called Maha Sangha, Sanghika. So, until this separation, we call this early Buddhism.


And after this separation, you know, this more and more separated or divided into 18 sects. I don't know sects is like English word or not. So, basically what monks did after Buddha's death is, you know, when Buddha died, 500 Arhat were there. And they collected Buddha's teachings. You know, it said Ananda recited what he heard from the Buddha. He had a very good memory, so he memorized everything he heard, and he was also Shakyamuni's personal attendant for many years.


So he listened to all of Buddha's teachings, and he had a very good memory, and he memorized everything. And after Shakyamuni died, he decided what he heard. And when other 500 arahats agreed, or approved, those teachings decided by Ananda became the sutra. And in the beginning, they didn't write down. In India they already had the characters, but they didn't write down. They memorized everything for a few hundred years. That is one of the collections of Buddhist scriptures called sutra.


And another collection of Buddhist scripture is called Vinaya. Vinaya is a precept. You know, while Shakyamuni was alive, and many people became his disciples, Shakyamuni established a monastery. And many monks, they had many monks, somehow monks made mistakes. And each time monks made mistakes, Buddha said, don't do such a thing again. And correction of those mistakes and Buddha's admonition, don't do that, became Vinaya. So there are 2,250 precepts for female monks, and more than that, 300 or so for female monks.


Those are all the result or fruits of monks' mistakes. And they are memorized, collected as a vinaya, and transmitted without writing, without being written. And another one, the third category of Buddhist scripture is called Abhidharma. Abhidharma is a collection of monk's discussions about what Buddha taught. So this is like a commentaries on the sutras. So those three, Sutra, Vinaya, and Abhidharma, are called three baskets of Buddhist scriptures. So after Shakyamuni died, monks in their sangha basically do is, of course, continue to practice meditation,


and keeping the tradition of precepts, and study, memorize and study the scriptures, and interpret those scriptures. Especially, you know, after King Ashoka, you know, because Buddhist Sangha was supported by the Emperor, They didn't worry about prohibitions. They are fully supported. So monks, Buddhist monks, didn't need to have so much contact with lay people, lay society. They could stay in the monastery and focus on meditation and studying. meditation and studying Dharma. That was basically what monks have been doing.


And there is another kind of a Buddhist practice outside of monks' sangha. You know, when Shakyamuni died, The Buddha said, after he died, you know, the funeral should be taken care of by lay people. So, you know, lay people did, of course monks were there, but, you know, when Buddha's body was cremated, burned, those lay people from different regions, eight groups from different regions in India, divided Buddha's relics. And when they returned to their own place, they constructed a monument called Stupa.


So, stupa, originally stupa, is taken care of by lay people. And one of the things King Ashoka did was he constructed many stupas all over India. He divided Buddha's relics into small, you know, parts. But maybe Buddha's relics were not so much. So probably some of them are without real relics. Anyway, these stupas are constructed in important places. in the life of Shakyamuni, such as where Buddha was born, that was Rumbini. During the Oryo Kimi,


The very beginning we chant, Buddha was born in Lumbini, enlightened in Magadha, and taught at Varanasi, and entered Nirvana in Kushinagara. Those four places are most important places in Shakyamuni's life. So, at those places, and many other places, they built stupas. And what the lay people mainly did, one of the lay people's practice was making pilgrimage to those important places of Buddha. So they visited stupas and paid homage to the Buddha. And some And it said some people taking care of stupas.


Of course, there must be some people, some caretakers of stupas. Caretaker of the stupa itself, and also people who take care of the visitors. So there are some group of people who work around the stupas. And in the history, What those people did was making Buddha's biography. Talks about what Buddha did. Not only within this final lifetime after he was born as a siddhartha, as a priest of a small kingdom. But most people believed Buddha was too great to become such a spiritual teacher within one lifetime. So they started to think Buddha must practice for many lifetimes before the final one.


And they used many different tales, folk tales. They collected folk stories from many different regions and collected more than 500 such stories. And they said that was what Shakyamuni did in his past lives. And the collection of those stories was called Jataka. Jataka. Because they collected more than 500 stories, and each story said this was Shakyamuni in his previous life. So people started to think Buddha practiced more than 500 lifetimes.


And they also made the beginning. Beginning of Buddha's practice as Bodhisattva. Bodhisattva is Pali and Bodhisattva is Sanskrit. Originally, when he allowed the Bodhicitta and became Bodhisattva, his name was Sumedha. And when this young person, Sumedha, met a Buddha whose name was Deepankara, I wrote this story in my book, Living by Vow. When Sumedha met Deepankara, he allowed bodhicitta, and he vowed to become like Deepankara Buddha.


So he wanted, he desired, or aspired to become a Buddha. And of course, Rippon Karabudda has disciples, monks, but somehow Sumedha didn't want to keep Buddha's disciples, so he didn't become a Buddhist monk. according to the story, because he said, if Sumedha thought, if I became a Buddhist monk, Deepankara Buddha's disciple, and study and practice, then I could achieve the realization and liberation, and I could enter nirvana. That is the first, you know, Buddha taught for Arhat. When they reach the rank of Arhat, they don't, they are released from this transmigration within samsara.


That is what entering nirvana means. But this person, Sumedha, thought that is not right to meet. He doesn't, that means if he became a Buddhist monk called Shravaka, meaning disciples, and attained emancipation and released from samsara and entered nirvana. You know, he couldn't help people. He couldn't become Buddha. So intentionally he didn't become Buddhist monk. In order to become Buddha, he needed to stay in samsara and help living beings within samsara. That's why he transmigrated within samsara for more than 500 lifetimes to help those living beings.


This story was included in the Pali Nikaya. But I think this story has some connection with the beginning of Mahayana Buddhism. about Buddha's life, not only one final life, but Buddha's lifetimes as Buddha practiced at Bodhisattva. That was the original kind of inspiration and image for the people who kind of created Mahayana Buddhism. But in the Pali, you know, Bodhisattva or Bodhisattva is only one person, Shakyamuni.


And after Shakyamuni died, there's no possibility or any human beings become Buddha. Until, you know, this person, next Buddha, Maitreya appeared in this world. That was many years later, many kalpas later. So, after Shakyamuni died, people thought they lived in the age without Buddha. There's no possibility Buddha appeared until Maitreya. So, Jataka is a fiction? Next one is, you said, Abhidharma is what Buddha taught. What's the difference between Abhidharma and Sutra? Abhidharma is a commentary on what Buddha taught. Commentary or interpretation of what Buddha taught. So Sutra is what Buddha taught?


Yes. Well, please. Yes, Pali Nikaya is Theravada. Jataka is a part of Pali Canon. Yes, yes. But of course it's not the original Nikaya, I mean the original collection of the Buddha's thought. This was probably started to be made after at least two or three hundred years after Buddha's death. and it's written in Pali and written in Sanskrit.


So same kind of story, everything in Pali Nikaya and also Chinese translation. So about, you know, these stories about what Buddha did as a bodhisattva in his previous lives and and after he was born in India, about praising Buddha's life, respecting what Buddha did. There are many sects in here and they have different understanding about Buddhist philosophy. That was one of the reasons they became separated. but about respecting Shakyamuni and worshipping, in a sense, worshipping Shakyamuni, all those sects have no argument.


I think we understand that. So, the same kind of stories are transmitted in Theravada and also Mahayana. Anyway, that is what has been doing among the groups who took care of Stupas. And some Japanese scholars in the second half of 20th century thought these people is the origin of Mahayana Buddhism. So Mahayana Buddhism was originally lay Buddhism. And they thought, when they think or they understand what the Buddha did in this way, I think they started to see what the monks did was different from what Shakyamuni did.


You know, monks were like living in a monastery, and studying, and receiving precepts, and keep the precepts, and study Buddhist teaching, Buddha's teaching, and made a commentary. They all, as a part of their practice, they had always debate or discussion. And Abhidharma is a collection of all those kinds of discussions. No, these are all monks' sangha. And, of course, also lay people supported the monks. So, you know, Japanese Buddhist scholars thought this is the origin of Mahayana Buddhism.


But later the Western scholars disagreed. Disagreed. American Buddhist scholars such as John Latier, those scholars think Mahayana Buddhism cannot be made only by lay people. So they thought some monks who aspired to become Buddha, like Buddha, they left monastery and practiced in a very strict way, and they aspired to become Buddha, following this kind of image of Shakyamuni. Those Western scholars think that was the origin of Mahayana Buddhism. But I think the number of such monks must be very small. So those monks aspire to practice like Buddha, and those people who respect and even worship Buddha, I think have connection.


It's like a demand and supply. And they, I think, together, without either of them, Mahayana Buddhism couldn't have been made in the way it was made. Because Mahayana Buddhist sutras have a very deep understanding of Dharma. And I don't think lay people could have such a deep understanding of Dharma. So, there must be some monks and lay people who work together. And they kind of created new kind of Buddhism. And that happened about the first BCE or first CE.


That means about 400 years after Shakyamuni's death. And around this time, Mahayana Buddhists started to create their own sutras, such as Prajnaparamita. Prajnaparamita, the Heart Sutra, is a very small part of Prajnaparamita Sutra. Prajnaparamita might be the first, earliest Mahayana sutras. And something like Vimalakirti. And this one, Lota Sutra. And the Avatamsaka Sutra, or Kegon Kyo, or Flower Adornment Sutra, Ornament Sutra.


And also the Pure Land Buddhist Sutras were made around this time. And those sutras are called Ari Mahāyāna Sutras. And interesting thing is, as I said, those three categories of Buddhist scriptures were transmitted without being written. People, monks, memorized everything and transmitted. And yet, Parinikāya was all started to write down around the same time. So, Parinikāya as a written document, written text, Parinikāya and the Mahāyāna Sūtras are made around the same time. Could you spell the R of Nikāya?


Pari. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a collection of Buddhist scriptures within Theravada tradition. First Prajñā text? One of the earliest was Diamond Sutra, but there must be some older one. Anyway, this is how Mahayana Buddhism appeared in the history of Buddhism. Theravada tradition. Theravada tradition came from this tradition.


Theravada is one of the eighteen sects. And King Ashoka sent some monks to Sri Lanka. And from Sri Lanka And from Sri Lanka it went to South-Eastern countries such as Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia. That became the tale about Buddhism. He also sent his daughter. Yes. His daughter went to Sri Lanka, yes. And probably his younger brother also. And Gengasaka also sent a Buddhist monk to Alexandria, to the West. But somehow in the West, Buddhism didn't take up root.


But there must be some influence in the West. Anyway, this is what happened before Mahayana Buddhism appeared in the history of India. Do you know more about why the smaller group of monks left and ended up bonding with the lay people? Why did they do that? Probably he didn't like so much, you know, the Buddhist monastery became like a university. They focus on meditation and studying scriptures or Buddhist philosophies and they felt there's not much contact with people in the society, I guess. And that was the main criticism from Mahayana Buddhism to both traditional Sangha.


I am not sure, but probably written from the beginning. Or probably those people just started to speak to the visitors. And those stories about what Buddha did and what Buddha taught. And probably shortly after that, they started to write down. I'm not sure. So this is how Mahāyāna Buddhism appeared, and the Lotus Sutra is one of those early Mahāyāna sutras.


Before I start to talk on the Lotus Sutra itself, I'd like to talk about at least one important point of And this is my understanding, so I don't know if it's really true or not. But one point within this movement I think is helpful to understand what happened here in this process is the basic structure When I give lectures on the precepts, we have at Sanshin-ji, we have precept retreat each in July, each year.


And we have five-day precept retreat and I give lectures on the precepts. If we have someone who wanted to receive the precept, we have the jukai or precept receiving ceremony at the end of this retreat. So as a responsibility of a preceptor, I need to explain the meaning of the precept. Within the precept it said, unless people understand the meaning of the precept, and they want to receive, we cannot give. So, each year, I talk about the precept. I start to talk on this very famous verse from Dhammapada.


I think all of you already know this one. Yeah, it works. I think all of you know this verse. It's very famous. And the verse is, Do not fathom evil. Do what is good. Keep your mind pure. This is the teaching of Buddha. You know, this is English translation from Pali, but there is a Chinese translation of the same verse. And the first line is shou aku maku sa. Do not do any evil or unwholesome. were wrong. And Dogen Zenji wrote a first clause of Shobo Genzo entitled, Shou Aku Makusa. Do not do any evil.


So this verse is very important in both Pali, Nikaya, and also in Mahayana Buddhism. At least in Dogen's teaching. And the meaning of this verse looks very clear. First, Buddha said, don't do any evil. And do or practice everything good. And keep your mind pure. This is the teaching of all Buddhas. In the Chinese translation, it says, Ze, Sho, Bukkyo, Shobutsu means all Buddhas. All Buddhas teaching. So this is considered the teaching by all Buddhas. This meaning of this verse seems very simple.


We should not be evil. And we should do everything good. And we should keep our mind pure. And that is what all Buddha taught. But this, at least according to one interpretation, this verse is not so simple. at least according to one interpretation, this very short and simple verse includes two sets of Buddha's teachings, two different sets of Buddha's teachings. First and second, do everything good, I mean, and do nothing bad or evil, is one set. That means we should do, we should make distinction between good and bad, and we should do good.


But the third line, keep our mind pure, according to that interpretation, means we should go beyond good and bad. So it's not so simple. One set of teachings, first and second, We should do good and we should not do bad. In order to do good instead of evil, we have to make a distinction for discrimination between good and bad. And the third line, keep our mind pure. This purity of mind means beyond discrimination. And this is not really an interpretation by some later people, but this is from the collection of verses in Dhammapada.


Dhammapada is one of the oldest Buddhist scriptures, existing both in Parinikāya and Chinese translation. Buddha taught these two sides. One is do good and not do evil, and another is go beyond good and bad. I can find many examples of these two sides, two sets. First, I introduce some verses or teachings from the Dhammapada. Buddha taught we should do good and not do For example, if we want to check Dhammapada, in verse 53, Shakyamuni said, As from a large heap of flowers, many garlands and wreaths can be made.


So by a mortal, mortal means living beings, in this life there is much good work to be done. Much good work to be done. Good work to be done. So he encouraged to do good thing. And verse 116, Buddha said, make haste and do what is good. Make haste? Hurry? And do what is good. Keep your mind away from evil. If a man is slow in doing good, his mind finds pleasure in evil. and another one, verse 119 and 120.


A man may find pleasure in evil as long as his evil has not given fruit. But when the fruit of evil comes, then that man finds evil indeed. and 120, a man may find pain in doing good, as long as his good has not given fruit. But when the fruit of good comes, then that man finds good indeed. You know, we can find this kind of teaching in many verses in the Mahabharata. But he also, I mean Buddha, Shakyamuni also said, we should go beyond good and bad.


For example, verse 126, Shakyamuni said, Some people are born on this earth. Those who do evil are reborn in hell. So this is a causality. When we do evil, we need to be born in hell. And the righteous go to heaven. And people who do good will be born in heaven. But those who are pure reach nirvana. Do you understand? If we do good, we will be born in heaven. If we do evil, we'll be born in hell. And there are other realms between heaven and hell.


So depending upon what we do, or depending on the nature of our actions, our activities, within the causality, cause and result, we'll be born in heaven, or in the heaven, or in the hell, or in between. This is one set of teachings. But Buddha, in the third line, I mean final, fourth line, Buddha said, but those who are pure enter nirvana. Enter those who are pure. And reach nirvana. So reach nirvana. So these are two sets of teachings. One is causality. When we do good, we will be born in heaven.


And if we do evil, we will be born in hell. This is one teaching within samsara. So within samsara we should try to do good and be born in heaven instead of going to hell. This is one set of teachings. And another set of teachings by Shakyamuni was go beyond good and bad. Then we will reach nirvana. Please, you have some questions. So these are two sets of teachings, and traditionally these two sets of teachings are interpreted or understood as, you know, this side of teaching, do good and not do evil, is for lay people. Only monks could reach nirvana.


Because only monks could go beyond good and bad. This is a problem. But, you know, these two sets of teachings, I think, have been working in the Asian-based countries. You know, especially in this structure, monks studied Dharma and practiced meditation, and therefore they could go beyond good and bad. But when lay people live in the society, they cannot avoid, you know, doing good or not good, or wholesome or unwholesome. No, they have to always make choice. In order to make choice, they have to always make a distinction between what is good and what is not good.


And Buddha taught we should choose doing good things, wholesome things, in order to be born in heaven. Otherwise, we need to go to hell. Or somewhere between heaven and hell, please. You can't be the devil's advocate here. If you go beyond choice, you have to have a choice. If you're living in a place where there's no choice, you can't go beyond choice. That is what I'm going to say. That is what I'm going to talk. That is the problem for Mahāyāna Buddhists. You know, by... excuse me, two sets of teachings. And one teaching about causality and transmigration, in Japanese, it's called Seiken Hou.


And second, go beyond good and bad and reach nirvana, is called Shosseiken. shutsu, seiken. This is seiken. And ho is dharma. And seiken means world. So seiken, ho, is worldly dharma. And shutsu is go, is get out, leave, or beyond, beyond worldly dharma. Shutsu. Shutsu. Shutsu means leave, to get out. Yes, yes, this is, worldly dharma is duality, good and bad. It's a non-luminous way of thinking.


It reminds me of what kind of energy when you wake up in the morning. Yeah, that is a teaching in the Mahayana Buddhism. Now I talk about the teaching in the early Buddhism. And this second one is called Raukika in Sanskrit. And the Shusseka is called Roka Uttara. That means beyond worldly. Beyond world. Beyond world. So this world, these two set of teachings. One is teaching for people in the world. and another is people who left the world. So there are, you know, this is actually in the Asian Buddhist countries, these two set of teaching works have been working, you know, late Buddhist.


in Asia have been doing is visiting stupas and make worship the Buddha and make donation or offerings. And many people, even in Japan, still believe when we do good things, then we can be born in heaven. And they don't expect reaching nirvana. Please. So it sounds like, simply put, lay people can learn to be more comfortable in samsara. And monks can go beyond samsara, can leave samsara. Is that correct? I guess so. Please. Hiroshi, you mentioned that this model has worked quite well in


Asian Buddhist countries. What about for Western countries? That is our question. So we have to think, and this can be the kind of foundation or materials we can consider when we create, in a sense, create, not Western, but create the Buddhism, you know, for 21st century. both Western and Eastern. For all countries? For all human beings. I mean, you know, what Mahāyāna people wanted to say is, you know, this is not right. This structure is not right. How can we, these two, integrate these two? That is the point of Mahāyāna Buddhism. That is what I am trying to say.


And that is the main teaching, main point of the teachings in the Lotus Sutra. How can, you know, these two sets of teachings into one? That is what ekāyāna or one vehicle Buddhism means. Please? Could one assume that the monks were grounded in the precepts and behavior before they go beyond the right and wrong. So it's not like they're abandoning behavioral precepts. I'm assuming in monastic life they've kind of embodied them. Of course, you know, to the people, to the monks who aspire to go beyond good and bad, Buddha requests to receive at least 250 precepts. So going beyond good and bad doesn't mean we can do bad.


But going beyond good and bad, this is what I always said when I talk about precepts. Going beyond good and bad means do good without clinging to our good actions and without hatred against other people's unwholesome actions. So going beyond doesn't mean it's okay to do bad. But going beyond means do good without clinging to good. And do good without anger or hatred against people who do unwholesome things. So In that sense, Buddha never said it's okay to do bad or evil. So from the very beginning, both worldly or beyond-worldly teachings, Buddha never said it's okay to do unwholesome.


Anyway, that is, in my understanding, that is, you know, people who created Mahayana Buddhism thought, how can, you know, these two can be combined and become one? Pardon me? Where is heaven or hell? I don't know. I've never been there. But in my understanding, heaven and hell, or other realms, six realms of samsara, traditionally it's said, you know, there are such worlds, or realms, and after we die, we will be born one of them, depending upon what we do.


within this lifetime. If you can believe this traditional Buddhist teaching, that's fine. Then we try not to do a horrible thing. Or if we could go beyond good and bad, we can reach nirvana. At least some people, including myself, cannot believe in such kind of rebirth. And there are such six worlds before and after our life. So, in my understanding, six realms is the condition of our mind. You know, it depends when we encounter something.


We feel, you know, I like this, or I think this is important or meaningful, and when I encounter something we don't like, or which gives us a negative sensation, then I don't want to be with this. Or often I want to escape from this. But somehow those negative things come to me without my agreement. So I become angry. Angry against this. And I hate this. So we divided things happening in our life as positive and negative. meaningful, meaningless, valuable and valueless. And we chase after something we like or we feel good or valuable.


And we try to escape from something we don't want or we don't appreciate. You know, this like and dislike makes our life learning. Learning after something we want. or running or escaping from something we don't want. And we are always running. And this running, chasing after something or escaping from something, makes our life sansara. That means, you know, sometimes we feel everything we want is with me. So I feel like heavenly beings. everything is OK. But more often we don't feel in such a way. And even if we have something we want, but our desire becomes larger and we want more and more.


This makes us hungry ghosts. or sometimes we feel like a hell. Everything we do, everything we encounter, everything we experience is simply suffering or meaningless. You know, and our condition of our life is always changing, so we have to always transmigrate. Not only six realms, but numerous different realms. That means, depending upon our condition, we are transmigrating from heaven to hell. That is my understanding of heaven and hell. Does this answer your question? If you can believe there are such six realms, objectively, and we are traveling life after life,


That's fine. That is a traditional Buddhist teaching. But even we cannot believe that kind of reverse, but Buddha's teaching of transmigration based on our desire and causality makes sense. That is my understanding of Transmigration, where it's almost 11.30. I didn't start to talk about the Roda Sutra. So, in the afternoon, I started to talk on the Roda Sutra.