2010.08.12-serial.00135

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Good afternoon. This morning we started to read the section of this conversation between Sozan Honjaku and one of his monks. about Great Ocean and Dr. Bowdoin. And I said the meaning of this conversation is not very clear, so there are several different interpretations possible. And now, Logan Zenji started to give his own comments, and this is his comments.

[01:00]

So we are not sure what Sodom said was exactly what Dogen Genji said. And what I'm going to talk about Dogen's comment is only my own. So I'm not sure if Dogen really meant what I'm going to talk. Please think by yourself within your life and within your practice. So this is only my interpretation and the program's interpretation of this people's conversation. So basically, The point of conversation is about the great ocean, Daikai, and Shishi, Red Bull.

[02:15]

And the sutra said, Daikai does not house dead bodies. And the meaning of this expression in the Buddhist sutras, both in the Parinikaya and Mahayana sutras, are really clear. Daikai get rid of dead bodies. But Sōzan and this man's name is not so clear. Because Sōzan says, the meaning of ocean is Hōganbainu. So the ocean. including 10,000 beings.

[03:25]

So, is dead body out of 10,000 beings or included? That is, that becomes a question. And that is a question this monk asked to Sodom. And, So that said, Zeki, he used an anodic expression, Zeki-sha-fu-jaku. A person who stops breathing. So a person who stops breathing is the same as dead body. Jack. Carville preferred to translate this as not belonging.

[04:34]

So the person who is dead does not belong to the ocean. Then Sodom said, banyu, banyu, and another words, sono ko, its merit, zeki, zeki. So that's it. The merit of 10,000 beings is whatever this means. So these are the words appeared in this conversation. And now Dr. Nzenji inquire what are these old words or concept or expression means in his understanding.

[05:44]

Well, all these people who he's quoting are dead. And so here's a conversation about dead bodies. Organic conversation with dead bodies. And these are the people who said that are dead. And I wonder, what is his own way of trying to say what he's saying? He's quoting these dead bodies. teachers talking about whether the dead are in the ocean. Can you sort of tell us something there? That's interesting. Well, so what I'm going to talk is what I'm thinking then by reading Dogen's comments. And in my understanding, current understanding, When we try to read and understand Dongen's comment, we have to forget all about the logic of the original statement in the sutras and what the monk and sodom is discussing.

[07:13]

But we read as the kind of independent materials Dogen is going to use to express his insight of Dharma. And Dharma, what he means is, I think, you know, what he said in Genjo-ko, he said, enlightenment and delusion are only within the relationship between se or jiko, and 10,000 Ghana, that is Banpo. So basically he's using these words and expressions. He's not discussing, but he's expressing the relation between Jiko and Banpo, self and illiterates.

[08:19]

And this burning yoga was with 10,000 beings, and this burning pose is the same thing as you can see. And actually, in my understanding, this jiko and dead body or person who stopped breathing is the same thing. So this jiko is dead body. So that is the point. So in their conversation, they said, you know, great ocean include 10,000 dolphins. But I don't think Togenzetsu did it that way. So at least the ocean is the starting point. page 7 in this text.

[09:28]

The great ocean does not house a dead body. The great ocean here, so this sentence is about this one, but it's said in the sutra. The great ocean or great ocean Here is not an inner ocean or outer ocean, not the eight oceans. These are not factors children ask about. He not only recognizes fact is not the ocean as the ocean. He recognizes fact is the ocean as the ocean. Even if we insist that they are oceans, they cannot be called the great ocean. The great ocean is not necessarily a deep abyss of the water of the eight virtues.

[10:37]

The great ocean is not necessarily a nine-fold abyss of salt water or the like. The darkness combined to open Could the great ocean necessarily be nothing but the water? Therefore, his question about the great ocean is speaking of the great ocean because the great ocean is as yet unknown to humans and gods. The person who would ask this question we try to shake his grasp of ocean. So now he is saying the ocean, this great ocean, is not something we usually think. Of course, that is the salty water that occupy about 70% of the surface of this planet Earth.

[11:48]

That is what we think about ocean. And when we study Buddhism, we think this great ocean is a metaphor for the network of the entire ten directions of the nation, the entire ten direction world, in which everything is connected. These are the kind of understanding or concept of ocean, I think, when we think about the ocean in Buddhist texts. First, he said, this ocean is not the ocean, the salty water. That is what he first said. The great ocean here is not an inner ocean or outer ocean.

[12:49]

This came from the Buddhist cosmology. This morning I said Dogen Zenji studied Abhidharmakosha since he was nine years old. This cosmology appeared in Abhidharmakosha. That means at the center of this thing Thus, this world is square. And in the center of the world, there's a big mountain called Mount Sumeru. And there are mountains and oceans between mountains like this. And there are eight oceans around around Mount Sumeru and what this inner or outer ocean means.

[13:51]

And our continent is south, around here. So what he's talking is, the ocean he's talking about is not that kind of ocean. These are not what the student asks about. So, I think it is clear. The monk asking is about the ocean of Dharma. He not only recognizes what is not the ocean as the ocean, he recognizes what is the ocean as the ocean. So he knows what he's asking. It's not this ocean.

[14:53]

Even if we insist that they are oceans, they can't be called the great oceans. So these are oceans exactly, and yet we don't call these oceans as great oceans. That means this word, dai, or blade, is something absolute. It's not one of the notions. This word, this dai, is used in, for example, dai-shin, san-shin, Dogen Zenji discusses, and Dogen Zenji discusses, you know, three minds in Tendokyo. Magnanimous mind, parental mind, nurturing mind, and beautiful mind. Magnanimous mind is Tai. And this guy, Tai Shin, is magnanimous mind.

[15:59]

Big mind is mind which has no separation or discrimination. Includes everything. That is Tai. So this guy means absolute. It's not one of the oceans on the earth. So this ocean could be, you know, this ocean. But it seems he's talking about something different, one different way. The great ocean is not necessarily a deep abyss of the water of the eight virtues. Eight virtues of water appear in some Buddhist scriptures, and there, Karl Wilhelm listed up those eight in his notes, so please take a look at that note. The great ocean is not necessarily a nine-fold abyss of salt, water, or the like.

[17:05]

This nine-fold abyss, according to Karl Wilhelm, It's a Chinese expression about the ocean. That is not the fact he's talking about. The dharmas combined to form it came from Basho's saying. According to Dogon, I think this is the ocean. The dharmas combined to form it. That means a collection of over 10,000 darwins, million darwins, is the ocean. Could the great ocean necessarily be nothing but deep water? So, he's still asking. Therefore, his question about the great ocean is speaking of the great ocean, because the great ocean is

[18:08]

as yet unknown to humans and gods. So here Dogen said, great ocean is unknown. Something we already know is not a great ocean. The person who would ask this question will try to shake his grasp of ocean. So he said, this ocean is unknown. We cannot see proportions because we are part of it. We don't see this entire network because we are part of this network. We cannot get out of this network. and seeing this. We are born within this network, and we live within this network, and we die coming and going within this, so we cannot see this entirety. So, is the great ocean, he says, yet unknown to humans and gods,

[19:16]

I don't think so. It's not a part of our personal life. It's our totality of this entire reality, including self and we are darkness. So he doesn't say what is the ocean. He only said the ocean is something we cannot know. I think this logic is the same as In the Lotus Sutra, it says, the Sutra says, talks about the true reality of all beings, what Shokhoji saw. Shokhoji's true reality of all beings. This is one of the most important expressions in Tendai teaching and also in Dogen's teaching. He wrote a chapter of Shōbō Genzo and titled it Shōbō Ishisō, True Reality of All Beings.

[20:40]

And Nagata Sutra said, at True Reality of All Beings, there are ten satchins. Those ten satchins are the each being, each of many beings, has its own shou, tou, tai, this is for me, bi, ti, sa, its own nature, form, body, energy, and function. So each of the 10,000 dharmas its own unique nature, form, body, energy, and function. This is first one, two, three, four, five, first five of ten satchins.

[21:45]

And next four of ten satchins is yin, ren, ka, ho, in is hope, in is conditions. And ka is result or effect. And ho is hope. I think, you know, in and ka is a relation within time. For example, a seed is a cause, and ka literally means fruits.

[22:50]

So fruit is a result of this movement from seeds to this activity of a plant. When the seed is planted, it needs a lot of conditions such as sunlight or humidity or certain temperature. A lot of help is necessary for a seed to grow. And when it matures as a flower, bloom flower, and bear fruits. So this in and ka, or hold and condition, is the relation within time. And en, or condition, is the condition that support the seed to grow. And so this is a relation within space.

[23:59]

We need the support from other beings within the space. And hope is also a relation with other beings. For example, when a plant blooms a flower, the plant can offer nectar to the bees or So, when the plant is seed for a young plant, the plant needs support from all beings. And when the plant becomes fully mature, it has something to offer. And as a real plant, from flower bloom, butterfly comes. the metaphoric root.

[25:02]

So those two are happening together. So, my understanding of these four substances is, you know, each one of 10,000 garments or beings has its own unique natures and unique aspects. And if these unique beings need to be in a relation within time and space. Each of us cannot exist without the relation within time and space. That is part nine suchness. First nine suchness means, I think. Tenth, the last final sentence is, it said, the Chinese expression is,

[26:17]

This means beginning and end. Beginning and end means from first to last. Kukyo is ultimate. Ultimate, or ultimate. To is identity. So the term translation is ultimate identity, or from the beginning to the end. That means These nine suchnesses are not nine independent things, but this is simply one thing. That is what ten suchnesses or shokubo jishisoro in the Lotus Sutra means. To me, this is a kind of understandable teaching about how we are, how we can exist, we are unique quality, unique way of doing things.

[27:31]

And yet this unique being can exist only within validation, within time and space. So to me this is understandable teaching, but somehow the Lotus Sutra said, this true reality can be seen only by Buddhas, together with Buddhas. No human beings can see. And for many years, I didn't understand what it means, because I can understand. This is a very understandable teaching. But Lotus Sutra says, no human beings can see. My understanding right now is, we can understand, but we can't see. Because we are part of this relationship. So we cannot see that relation since happening as an observer.

[28:34]

I think that is the same thing. We cannot see this great ocean because we are part of it. In order to see, we have to be out of the ocean. But that is not possible. Because we are always inside. We are all within this world. and see and experience this world only from the inside. We never get out of the world and observe as an object. That is the fact, I think. This great ocean is unknown to us. We never have seen it, even though we are always within there. So that is what he said about the great ocean. The great ocean is something unknown to us. Unmatched. So first of all we have to deconstruct our notion of what is the ocean.

[29:49]

So we have to become refreshed to think about what is the ocean. Then he started to talk about this fushiku shishi, not housing dead body. And his comment is very unique. I don't understand why. from this conversation. So we have to forget the conversation, the teaching in the sutra and the conversation between monk and sotunga. We have to see these four tiny characters with very fresh eyes, as if these four characters are

[30:55]

something we see for the very first time in our life. And what he said about this not housing dead body is, in saying it does not house a dead body, not housing is, when the bright one comes, I hit the bright one. When the dark one comes, I hit the dark one. And he continued. A dead body is dead ashes. It is how many springs has it met without changing its core. A dead body is a thing people have never seen. Therefore, they do not know it. So this is his comment on not housing and dead body.

[32:00]

So first he talks about this bushoku, not housing. So it's better to forget this English word, housing. Housing is not done. We say in translation, this shoku is allow someone to stay at a house, or at a motel, or a hotel. But in Dogen's comment, it's very different. And to understand his comment, we understand what this thing about the bright and dark means. And this came from another Zen story, So everything came from somewhere. And unless we understand what it means in the original story, we don't understand why, we don't want to use this expression.

[33:05]

And this expression, in this translation, when the bright one comes, I hit the bright one. When the dark one comes, I hit the dark one. This is... maybe I don't need to write. This came from a story in the record of Rinji, Rinzai. Rinzai had the master, Rinzai, founder of Rinzai school in China, as a very interesting friend, unique friend. whose name in Japanese is Fukei. In Chinese, Fukei is pure, pure. Maybe I don't need to write it. Pure, pure. This person helped Rinzai to establish his morality, but he was a very eccentric person.

[34:22]

This is a translation by Barton Watson. If you want to check this story, it appears on page 87 of the Dazen Teachings of Master Rinzai. Kyuhyuwa Oasuke regularly went around the street. So he always walked on the street in the town, ringing a handbell and saying in this translation, come on the bright side and I will hit you on the bright side. Come on the dark side, and I will hit you on the dark side. Come from four corners, or eight directions, and I will hit you like a big wind.

[35:32]

Come from the empty sky, and I will hit you like so many flares. F-L-A-R-E. So the first half is Dogen-bo. Then, because of this, the master, this is Rinpoche, the master instructed his attendant, or Jisha, to go and as soon as Fuke has spoken in this way, to grab hold of him, and say, what will you do when I don't come in any of these ways? Then, when the attendant had done so, Fuke pushed him, him means jisha, attendant, away and said, tomorrow there's to be a meal at the Great Compassion Grocery.

[36:39]

The attendant came back and reported this to the master. The master's vindai said, For some time now, I've been suspicious of this fellow. Actually, Dogen Zenji used this expression, For some time now, I've been suspicious of this fellow. Soon later, in Kainzan. Anyway, this is the original story. And the fact scale said is mei, tou, dan, mei, tou, dan, and an. About the same thing about an. May is bright and August is dark.

[37:52]

So when darkness comes, I hit the brightness. When darkness comes, I hit the darkness and other things. That means whatever happens, I hit exactly what should be done. each moment. Does it make sense? If this brightness and darkness means discrimination and non-discrimination, when discrimination comes, I treat it with discrimination. When non-discrimination comes, I treat this with non-discrimination. So there's no thinking this side or that side. Whatever condition or situation is, I can do this in the way it should be done.

[39:01]

That is the fact that fushoku means according to the Dori. So it's not the matter of the ocean does not house a dead body. But this is a dead body. Dead body does not stay in one place. So whatever things happen, the dead body, because the dead body has no clinging, no attachment to one's perception, or thinking, or policy, or opinion, or whatever. Just react in a correct way. So there's no pain in one position. So this not housing or hakushuku means no clinging to any points. So actually the person is a dead body.

[40:08]

Because the person is a dead body, the person has no particular agenda. So that's why a person can react to anything in a way that is appropriate in each moment. That is according to Dōgen. That is what this not-housing dead body means. So this not-housing, fushoku, is a quality of this dead body. Now, dead body gives nothing to do with that conversation between the mind and the soul. So dead body means a very free person without self-cleaning. I think that is the same as dropped off body and mind. A body and mind that is dropped off can work or function without clinging to any position or any sign.

[41:20]

So the body means self without self. or samsara, no self, self, or body and mind, in Nogenzenji's expression. So what makes such a difference in the Buddha? That is next. Nogenzenji, in the next part. Next, in this paragraph, he talks about this dead body. He said, dead body is dead ash. And how many springs has it met without changing its core? This core is also a translation of shin, or mind, its mind. And this expression,

[42:24]

How many springs have it made without changing its core, came from another Zen story. So we have to go back to that story. This is... where is it? This is about Daibai Hojo. He is a disciple of Masu, one person, and he is a person who, when he heard Masu's teaching, the mind did itself put down. immediately attained so-called enlightenment, and he left, and he entered a mountain named Daibai.

[43:33]

So Daibai is the name of the mountain he climbed. And this means a big or great rock. And Dogen Zenji respected this person very much. Anyway, so this person practiced by himself in this great brown mountain for many years, for 31 more years. And one time, a monk accidentally found this hand. And the monk was a disciple of Enkan Saipa, who is another disciple of Masa, or Mazu. So the abbot and this hojo was Garima brothers. But this person only met 30 or 40 years ago before this person entered that mountain.

[44:38]

Anyway, so his monk found this person in the deep mountains, this person wanted to ask him to return to the world. But Hojo escaped and entered the deeper mountains. And he rejected to meet with this Zen master, his German brother. He wrote a poem. It's also Zen Heritage's third type. Yeah. It's Dashi's poem in Sanskrit. There's a Kali Gurudev translation also. In this translation, It was a damaged tree stump, slumps in the forest.

[45:49]

So he called himself Damaged Tree Stumps. Definitely. Mind, mind unchanged as springtime. Woodcutter passes but still doesn't see the dead trees. So woodcutter is useless for woodcutter. Woodcutter doesn't see even a damaged tree. Woodcutter passes but still doesn't see Why do you seek trouble by passing it? Limitless lotus leaves on the pool serves as my clothing.

[46:57]

An abundance of pine cones remains for food. Now people from the world have learned of my home, so I'll move my hut to a more secluded spot. This is important. Let me read it again. A damaged tree stump slumps in the forest. Mind unchanged as spring times pass. A woodcutter passes but still doesn't see. Why do you seek trouble by passingly? Limitless lotus leaves on the pool serve as my clothing. An abundance of pine cones remains for food. Now people from the world have learned on my own.

[48:02]

So I moved my heart to a more secluded spot." So this is the origin of this saying. For many springs, he didn't change his mind. And according to Dogen, this is what Zen Buddhism means, because Zen has dispersed didn't change, even though another thing of him is when he met with the monk who accidentally found him, the monk asked, how many years have you been in this mountain? And he said, I only see the mountain becomes yellow and green. So that means he never count how many years he did there. So the way he lived is really timeless. And he has no interest with other things happening in the world.

[49:11]

That is what a dead body means. So it's very different from, you know, monks who violate precepts. Again, almost nothing to do with the original meaning of dead body. And before this he said dead body is dead ash. This dead ash and dead tree also came from another story we already mentioned. That is Lhasan's arising and perishing. This is a conversation between this past discipline master Gangto and his disciple Lhasan.

[50:15]

Gangto and Lhasan. And this appeared in Tao. Case 43 of the Book of Serenity. This is about, when arising and vanishing, or perishing, go on unceasingly, but then, that is a pleasant question. And Ganto said, whose arising and vanishing is it? So we already read that expression. Ratham asked that question to Ganto. He asked the same question to another Zen master. Probably I already said so. And that Zen master is Seki Sho, Tozan's Dharma cousin. And what sexual answer to that same question of Ratham is,

[51:23]

In this translation, Chan Master Ra-san asked Sekisho, When arising and vanishing go on unceasingly, what then? Then Sekisho said, I said, this person, Sekisho, called his zendo as a dead tree hole. And his assembly was called dead tree assembly because they were always sitting immovably in the zendo. One thought for 10,000 years, that is, no mind does not change.

[52:32]

Just keep one thing, eternal. And box and lid joined, pure and spotlessly clear. This is the sexual answer to Rassam, but Rassam did not understand or didn't like this answer. So he went to Ganto and asked the same question. And he became Ganto's disciple. Anyway, so this becoming or being dead ash and dead tree is sexually safe. This means very just thing. Assembler called Dead Tree Assembler. So that is what dead body means.

[53:33]

Just sitting, practice for many, many years without changing one's mind. So this dead body, or dead tree, or dead ash means practitioner You know, a friend of mine, his name was Arthur Bregman, wrote a book on five Zen teachers in Japan. And two of them was Sawaki Roshi and Uchiyama Roshi. Is Choshin-san included? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure. Anyway, the title of his book is Living and Dying in Zazen. So living and dying in Zazen. Keep sitting, life after life.

[54:36]

Not practice Zazen within living and dying. So our Zazen practice is not a part of our life and death. But part of our life and death, entirety of our life and death is Zazen. is the expression came from a very different expression in Dōgen. Anyway, so, this dead body is real fractional of sensei. So this, again, this dead body means the person whose body and mind is cast out or don't flow. Then he said the same thing with this great ocean. A dead body is a thing people have never seen. So it's not really certain people who devoted their life into Zazen.

[55:46]

But actually this dead body is a thing people we have never seen. That means this is something you know, this dead body is always searched. You know, we try to find what it is, and I say, I'm a Shoka, and I'm a Japanese, and so that kind of information I could write in my resume. Actual, real peace is always this side. Whatever information given is already that side. So, this side, this person never seen this person. Whatever I think about myself, it's cultured already.

[56:51]

It's not this person itself. So, this is what that Buddha knew. Something that cannot be. be never be object. It's always subject. So is object thinking and subject not thinking? And practice beyond thinking? Or is subject non-thinking? That is because if it sounds like what you're saying, the way that it could be understood what you're saying is subject is better than object, or subject is more real than object, or subject is ultimate and object is conventional.

[58:01]

information or knowledge or some concept? Yes. Or about this thing? Yes. So what is this? Yeah, so is it better? Is it better? Is it better? Is it a higher class? It's not a matter of better or worse. You don't think so? It cannot be the opposite. It doesn't mean this is better than the opposite. So object is okay? I think everything is okay. It's not a matter of good and bad. Or more important or less important. It's the way things are. I see. The aspect of our being. But if I get in contact with my breath, for example, my sensation, then it's also object.

[59:09]

You know, if I don't think, I just sit and feel the breath, is this also, you can't feel this also as When we interact, when we watch the breast, the breast is open. And the person is breathing. So there is no way to just breathe? I think in my Zazen, I just breathe. I don't count breasts, I don't watch breasts. That is what my teacher told me. Do nothing. Then when you do nothing, but it's still an option. I don't think so, if I don't watch it, if I don't interact with it, then there's no such separation between the subject or... It's all happening. But there's still effort.

[60:14]

Do you make effort when you breathe? When I sit, I... That breathing, he was again breathing in your sleep. Does it make effort to breathe in your sleep? No. But does your zazen include effort? I think so. To keep this upright posture is my effort. But when my posture is twisted, As my effort, I returned to Earth. That is life. So you have a dead body? I'm not sure. So this dead body is, how can I say, innocence.

[61:21]

So I think something that's on my mind and I think some other people is like what John It's not like you should be a dead body. Everybody is a dead body already. There's no way out of it. It's not a matter of that is something we should achieve or make effort to be. That is how we learn. Because often we understand these things as prescriptions.

[62:27]

Oh, I'm supposed to sit like a dead body. And then if I'm sitting like a dead body, that's good. And if I'm not, that's bad. In that case, we are still watching, observing, and evaluating. That is not dead body. Just doing this dead body. So... Even if you're skateboarding? Pardon? Even if you're moving, could you be dead body? Skiing or... I think it's positive, that the body is skiing, that the body is moving. Then our activity is not separated into two parts, the person doing and the action. You're both dead body and object, because you're so present.

[63:35]

You really are watching what you're doing, but at the same time, you're dropping away. You're really loving what you're doing. It's interesting. You don't have to love it, because that's going to be a mess. Maybe I was thinking, you don't have to love what you're doing, but if you're a master, you don't have to think about it. Yeah, just do it. Yeah, this is another meaning of just do it, or shikan, taza, or just sitting, really just sitting, without separation between person sitting and the practitioners, for evaluation of how this sitting is. Yes, later I'll just go down to the room to just sit.

[64:40]

Anyway, I'd like to continue to the next paragraph, otherwise I cannot finish tomorrow morning. So, next he discusses about Hōganbanyū, old Hōganbanyū here. Hōkan is including or embracing millions or 10,000 beings. And Dōgen said, this Hōkan by you is great ocean. So let me read this paragraph. The Master is saying, it contains the 10,000 beings. is speaking of the ocean. So this is the ocean. What he is saying about the main point is not that some single thing contains the 10,000 beings.

[65:48]

Containing is the 10,000 beings. He does not mean that the great ocean contains the 10,000 things. It contains the 10,000 beings means it is just a great ocean. Although we do not know what they are, for now we call them the 10,000 beings. Even our encountering of the faces of the Buddhas and the faces of the patriarchs are for now confused with the ten further meanings. When they contain, even mountains are not only standing on the highest mountain peak. Even water is not only walking on the deepest ocean floor. Taking in is like this.

[66:52]

Letting go is like this. We say The ocean of the Buddha nature, or we say the ocean of the womb of Mahārāja, these are simply the ten thousand beings. Though we may not see the face of the ocean, there are no doubts about the conduct of swimming. For example, In speaking of Ryofu's one grove of bamboo, while saying, one or two stalks are bent, and three or four stalks are slung, is Connor that causes the loss of the 10,000 beings? Why does he not say, a thousand are bent, 10,000 are bent? Why does he not say a thousand groves, ten thousand groves?

[67:59]

We should not forget the reason why the bamboos of one grove are like this. Cautions, a thousand things, it contains the ten thousand beings in still the ten thousand So this is Togen's comment on this expression, containing 10,000 humans. And from the conversation between the monk and Kaoshen, who was for them, the point is whether this great ocean contains, if this great ocean contains 10,000 beings, that means everything, five dead bodies cannot be included. But here, Jōgen's appalling saying is, the subject of this campaign is not Great Worship, but this ōganbanyū as one word,

[69:19]

containing 10,000 beings. Is it the same Great Ocean? Do you see the difference between these? So this is just a different English, but it's the same character. So how is it before it contains still talking about the same characters? Oh, contain, yeah, it's the same character. Thank you. He doesn't change the characters, but he changes I can say that, relations. And I think that what he meant is about, it's already gone, about self and medial dermis. And from one side, this self contains medial dermis. And from another side, the miriandai must contain the self.

[70:26]

So we can call this entirety, the self is a part of the miriandai. We call this entirety as the self. That is 10,000 The entire ten-direction world is the true body of the self. But from another time, there are no such things called self, only ten thousand realms, because the self is simply a part of it. Does it make sense? So we can say two ways. This self includes the entire million diamonds. And so that means this cell is a great ocean. It's not a matter of the big thing called great ocean contains everything.

[71:34]

That is how we think when we read this kind of description. But as I said before, The circle is the problem. So each knot contains an entire net. So each one of us contains a billion times. And that is what this great ocean means. So it's not a matter of some big space called the great ocean. contain everything, and we doubt whether there are some exceptions such as dead body. Is dead body included or not included? That is a question between the monk and the soldier. But from the way he's talking, that is not a question at all.

[72:39]

The point is the relation between self and the other one. And this is, I often use the example of five fingers and one hand. You know, one hand and five fingers are exactly the same thing. But somehow, we think this great ocean is something different from medium land. And this great ocean contains medium land. That is not really true, but mirrior dharma itself is great devotion. Five fingers, there is no one hand beside five fingers. And each of mirrior things are like each finger.

[73:41]

And each finger has different shape, and different name, and different way of moving, movement, and different function. So we cannot alternate the fingers. So each is really, really big. And yet, if one finger is cut off from the relation or connection, then this finger stops to be a finger. Finger can be finger only when it's connected with other fingers. So we can say this thumb is entire hand. Each and every finger is, when I grasp one finger, I grasp entire hand, one hand. That is but, you know, the self includes entire, or contains entire times, entire million times.

[74:52]

From one side, and from another side, this is just a million times, and there's no such thing called self. That is what this pedagogy means. Beside one hand, there's no such thing as a finger. So he thinks or makes from different sides. And both are 100% reality. That is what he wants to express. And that is how we really are. as an individual, independent person or being, that this independent, individual person can exist in one moment with the connection, the relationship with other, not only people, but other beings, such as air, water, food, everything.

[76:03]

So, from one side there is no such cause, things called a self, or individual person in short. This is really like a bubble. And yet, as a bubble, this short is really here, and very sometimes. And this is my world. Everything within this world is part of me. That is what I say when I grasp One finger has the entire hand. So that is the true way of viewing one deity. So the dead body is the Great Ocean too? The dead body is the Great Ocean, yes. To me, that is what he is saying. The Buddha is saying it contains the 10,000 beings.

[77:06]

He is speaking of the ocean. So, containing the 10,000 beings is itself ocean. It is not the matter that 10,000 oceans contain these millions of beings. What he is saying about the main point is not some single thing. something contains the 10,000 beings. In this case, there's a separation. This is a container, and this is a content. But there's no such separation. The collection of the contents is the great ocean. There's no great ocean beside a thing, a million planets. So, in a sense, you said he's saying that the dead body leaves the ocean, but isn't he also saying that there's nothing in the ocean that's not breathing?

[78:14]

So, I mean, in a way, he's saying both. Yes. Both. Both are 100%. I always... So there is no separation between great ocean and 10,000 beings. Containing is the 10,000 beings. So it's not a matter of this is subject, this is object, and this is the world. That shows relation between subject and object. But this containing is the world is itself 10,000 beings. So there's no separation between subject, object, and the body. It's the same as, I often say, in the first sentence of Hatsukura, Avalokiteshvara is the five skandhas.

[79:24]

So five skandhas see the five skandhas, and see how the five skandhas are, that is emptiness. So there's no one who's seen, and no five skandhas to be seen, and there's no seeing. That's just one action. And this one action is the other thing. Five skandhas, just being five skandhas. That is a clear seeing of emptiness. This is the same, I think, same logic. So containing is the 10,000 beings. He does not mean that the great ocean contains the 10,000 things. Saying it contains the 10,000 beings means it is just a great ocean.

[80:26]

So this is just a great ocean. There's no such great ocean inside. is containing 10,000 beings. Or, if we grasp this great ocean, there is no such thing as being contained or being a reality. Only this great ocean. Although we do not know what they are, For now, we call them the 10,000 beings. So he said, we don't know the great ocean, and we don't know the dead body, and we don't know the 10,000 beings. So those are something we can know. Then we say, I know, and there's already subject, object, observer, being observer.

[81:29]

But the reality is, movement, including all of them. Maybe this is a good place to stop and I continue tomorrow morning from here. Any questions or comments? Can I let you stay one more week? So, then I leave Jordan. I lost, I really lost, completely lost. And I don't know really what he's talking about. And I keep, in a sense, sitting with this confusion for a while.

[82:32]

Then I start to see words and concepts, and create my own world of thinking. This is confused and eliminating. But Dogen is just saying, starting to make sense. So to me, reading or studying Dogen's writing, like Shogo, this kind of grammar, I think the same thing that we're doing doesn't just get broken. When we let go of my understanding, my thinking, my opening, then things appear loose. There was a question earlier that I was wondering about too.

[83:35]

And you don't even know what O means. But it requires that, what you're talking about. Guessing and thinking. Swoosh!

[84:09]