2010.08.10-serial.00131

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This morning, I think I was talking on the last paragraph on page 3. So I continue from there. We are still on page 3. Half of the Gendoi have already gone. So now I'm sure I can talk on my own. So I don't think we are wasting time, but we need such an explanation and discussion to make sure we share the same understanding. But we need to get a little bit harder. I think Dogen Zenji requests his leaders, basically these writings were written for his disciples, who practice with him and spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

[01:27]

So, I think Dogen Zenji expects leaders already know those things. but unfortunately we don't know. So we have to check what he's talking about. Especially he quotes many things without saying, I quote from there. And here he, using the expressions, appears in different sutras and then literatures. It's really the last line of page 3.

[02:28]

Whose arising and ceasing is those who can attain deliverance through this body, it is manifesting this body. It is preaching the Dharma for them. It is the first mind cannot be caught. You've got my marrow. It is you've got my bones. For it is whose arising and ceasing. I think you know the first part. Those who can attain deliverance through this body, manifesting this body, preaching the Dharma again, is from the Lotus Sutra. So in the chapter of the Avalokiteshvara, or Kannon-gyo, if you read Kannon-gyo, the 25th chapter of the Lotus Sutra, you probably remember the lecture of almost the same sentences for 33 times.

[03:47]

I just introduce only the beginning. This chapter, the Lotus Sutra, is a discussion with this Bodhisattva whose name was Infinite Thought. Infinite Thought. Interesting name. Mūjinnī bōsatsu. So this person, Mūjinnī bōsatsu, or the Bodhisattva Infinite Thought, asked to the Buddha, World Honored One, how is it that the Bodhisattva Regarder of the Crimes of the World, this Regarder of the Crimes of the World, is Kanzerōn bōsatsu? One does in the Sahawan.

[04:57]

One does in the translation of UK. I'm not sure this word, one does. Both you and the cave mean to play, to have a joy, to have a fun. And this you also means to go, to walk around, to go somewhere. But this cave means to have a fun. And the Dogens and Jews, this was UK, in Vendova. And my translation was something like, dispose oneself in Jijū Samadhi. So how Bodhisattva is praying, walking around and having joy in the Saha world, a world of suffering, a world of patience.

[06:06]

Then, how does he, Avalokiteshvara, preach the law, expand the dharma to the living beings, to all living beings in this Saha world. Sato is a character of his tactfulness. Tactfulness is a skillful means. What kind of skillful means Avalokiteshvara used when he walked around to work with people in this Sama world. Then the Buddha replied to the Bodhisattva and he started this repetition. Good son, if the living, the living or living beings in any realm, any realms of three worlds, triple worlds,

[07:10]

must be saved. We use the word saved in four vows. This means to liberate, to help other beings to cross over this river between samsara and nirvana. So, if the living in any realm must be saved in the body of a Buddha, the Bodhisattva, begetter of the cries of the world, Kanzen Bosatsu, appears as a Buddha and preaches to them the law, the Dharma. And to those who must be saved in the body of a Pratyekabuddha, Avalokiteshvara appears as the Pratyekabuddha and preached by expounding the Dharma and repeated 33 times.

[08:17]

That means Avalokiteshvara manifests him or herself in 33 different appearances. limited number. This means infinite numbers, infinite ways. That is the origin of this expression. But if we only do this rota-sutra, we don't understand why Dogenreiki used this expression. So there's something missing. And I think last year at Sanshin-ji, during Genzo-e, we studied Shobo Genzo Zenki and Shoji.

[09:22]

Zenki is total function, and Shoji is life and death. The chapter of Shōbō Genzo is based on one koan story, that is, A Life or a Death. This has something to do with what he's writing here. I think you may know or already know this story. It's a very, very long story. This is about one of the Chinese masters, Douguo Enchi. Or Daou, Daou Wu, or Yuanchi. And he decided then again to go.

[10:34]

And Dogo Enji was a teacher of Sekisho, the person I mentioned yesterday. Seki, I'm sorry. Sekisho, when he was asked, you know, What is it like? When arising and finishing doesn't cease, doesn't stop suddenly, then Sekisho said, just be just a daydream. And so that was Zen Master. And yesterday I said, Dogo was a Dharma brother of Unka. Donjo, and Ungamuk was Tozan's teacher. So Dogo was Tozan's Daruma uncle, and Zengeng was Tozan's Daruma, Zengeng and Sekisho were Tozan's Daruma cousins.

[11:43]

So they are all connected. So when we study this kind of writings of Zogen, one of them, how can I say, not important, but interesting thing is to study Dōgen, we have to study all of these teachers' sayings and we gradually see the connection of those ancestors and pilgrims of our Dharma lineage. And we gradually understand how Dōgen's teaching, where Dōgen's teaching comes from. Anyway, so this story is about Dōgo Enchi and his disciple, Zengen, and also Sekishō also appears in the story. Dōgo was the abbot of a monastery, and Zengen was Tenzo at that time.

[12:49]

And once they, together, visited a family where they had a funeral. So they visited to attend the funeral service of Red Path. And when these two people arrived at the funeral house, Zengen first hit a coffin and asked to go alive over there. Of course, that is at the funeral service, so it is sure the person is dead. So this doorbell question is not a common question. He had doubt if the person is still alive. But the person is, in a common sense, already dead. alive or dead, pointing the casket.

[14:00]

Then his master, Dogo, said, I don't say alive. I don't say dead. But I don't say if Fudo alive or dead. shou or shi who is not dou is same dou I talked this morning dou in dou toku in this case expression must be in dou toku so doubo said I don't say this is alive or this is dead but zen gen Repeatedly asked, tell me, alive or dead. But also repeated, I don't say, I don't say.

[15:04]

That was before the funeral ceremony. And after the funeral ceremony was over, they went back to the monastery. And on their way to the monastery, Zengen again asked, are you dead? But Dogo continued, I don't say, I don't say. Then, Zengen was really serious. If you don't tell me, I'll hit you!" Still, the oboe said, I don't say, I don't say. So he actually hit the abbot and the abbot. And left. After they arrived at the monastery, the abbot asked him to leave the monastery because it would be a problem.

[16:05]

And other temple officers knew So he left. And there are many, several different versions. According to one version, soon after that, the Abbot passed away. So, Zengen visited his elder Dharma brother, Sekisho. and talked about what happened between him and his teacher, the dead teacher. And Zen Rin asked, please tell me, alive or dead. Then Sekisho said, why don't you understand that? He was saying he'd done it himself. So, I don't say it's not a rejection of answer, but I don't say it's his answer.

[17:14]

That was the story in at least one version. So, at that time, Zen Gen really understood Dogo's kindness, so he made a repentance. And according to the story, later, they began holding a hoe to cultivate the ground and walk around in the Dharma hall. So, Sekisho asked, what are you doing? I don't suggest anything. Then Zen Master said, I'm searching the relics of my late teacher. Searching what? Relics. Ash bone. Relics of my late teacher.

[18:19]

Then, the teacher said, waves are below the entire world. The waves. So it has something to do with this. The ocean, the waves are reaching the entire world. So how do you, why are you looking for his lyrics? That was the end of the story. Anyway, that is one version. And that is not something to do with this expression. There is another different version. You know, when you read this kind of koan story, I recommend you to find different versions. This is one of the final versions. But the most primitive version appeared in a text named Sodoshu.

[19:20]

Sodoshu is a collection of So it was a collection of ancestral poems. This is the oldest collection of that kind of story. According to that story, that version, this story was much simpler. The beginning is the same. Zen-gen asked, are alive or are dead? And Dogo said, I won't say, I won't say. Zengen was not satisfied, so he left. In that version, there's no meaning. He was not happy, so he just left. And while the person, Zengen stayed in a certain place, suddenly, as he found or he understood the meaning,

[20:26]

So he returned to the monastery. So in that version, Dogo didn't die. So when Zengen returned, Dogo was very happy. So he came into the gate, welcoming Zengen coming back. So in that version, this is a happy ending story. But that version also, a little bit developed version. And this little bit developed version has the story. It says how this Zenken understood the meaning of Dogo's answer, I won't say alive, I won't say dead. And that version, You know, Dogen Zenji compiled a collection of koan, 300 koan stories, and entitled Shobo Genzo.

[21:29]

So Chinese, written in Chinese. So this is simply a collection of 300 koan stories. He didn't write any comment. But this is really unusual. He included two versions. One is the final version I took, and another one is another version before. That is what I want to talk about. I read the version in Logan's collection. So, in this version, Zen-gen beat the door and left the monastery. He stayed in a small temple, maybe on a hill where he goes somewhere.

[22:32]

He stayed overnight. Then, in the early morning, he heard someone and then he heard the person was chanting this part of Kannon-ryo. It says, Zengen could not understand at that time. Later he heard the Avalokiteshvara Chakra of the Lotus Sutra being chanted. And it said, for one who has attained the... This is Daido Rori's translation. of 300 koans. The monastic body, that means monk's body, the Avalokiteshvara appears in the monk's body and expounds the Dharma. So this is the part he heard someone was chanting.

[23:35]

Hearing this, Zen Gen came to realization. So this is the phrase, zengen, heard and understood, but while dogo said, I won't say alive, I want to say, yeah, I want to say dead. That means, this is, so this is about life and death. Life and death is similar. Arising, staying alive, and perishing. You know, impermanence, changing, moving. Then person, we are born, we live for a while, and we die. And then the question is, is alive or dead? In that case, you know, life and death are one thing.

[24:40]

So, how can we separate from dead person and alive from dead? So, Dengen's question is, what is this? So, he already knows life and death are one thing, not two separate things. So, how do you call this? Then Dogo's answer, I won't say, I won't say, means there's no way to say anything. That was his answer. This is not his rejection to answer, but this was his expression about this thing. So this thing in a custom is neither alive nor dead. At least, who shows who meds.

[25:45]

Do you understand what I mean? But when you're saying that the five skandhas are there, so you can tell if a person's alive or dead, and are you saying that it's happening at the same time you can't separate dead from? There is no way to separate, to make a distinction between life and death. Because in Dogen's expression, this is the total function, total movement of all beings, all the elements. And this is, in this case, the five skylines. But Showa is like a bubble. You know, as it's said in the Heart Sutra, not Heart Sutra, Diamond Sutra.

[26:51]

You know, we are like a bubble. That means emptiness. Bubble is an air part in the world. So, and if bubble appear from the bottom, and stay for a while until it reaches the surface of the water. And when it goes above the surface, it disappears. So our life is the process from the bottom to the surface of the water. As a bubble, we are there. We are like a bubble. But is the bubble really there? Barbara is simply a name for the condition of air acting the water. So only air and water is good.

[27:52]

There's no such thing. Barbara is just a name of a condition or happening. So who is born with that condition? and Shohaku is going to die. If Shohaku is not really there, what was born is going to die. So nothing is born and nothing dies. And yet we call this Shohaku, and Shohaku is born, and Shohaku is going to disappear. I lead to the top of the world. That's all. So, is there something which is born and which will die? So, what is this? That, do you understand what I mean? That is what Dengen means.

[28:54]

You know, this person, conventionally, in a conventional sense, the person is dead. It's true. But as a very basic reality, who is born, who is died? What is life, what is death? This is the reality of emptiness. When we see the emptiness, how do we see life and death? Another example is clouds. Clouds are the opposite of bubbles. Clouds are water floating in the air. So it's only water and air. There is no such thing as clouds. Cloud is simply a name of the phenomena that water go up to the sky and appear as something white and floating.

[30:09]

We call that is cloud. But actually only the air and water is there. And water is H2O, that means two H and one more atom. So we can... water is just a... how can I say... combined atoms. So we can split water, and water creates a gas, a part of air, and disappears. And even this, you know, these atoms, now we can split. So what is this? Yeah, yeah. I think it's a question. And Dogo's answer was, he has no way to say anything about this. Not what I want to say. Alive, I want to say. Dead. And what Zengen realized when he heard this part of the canonical is, Avalokiteshvara appeared in

[31:23]

infinite number of appearances. So this is, this life and death is Avalokiteshvara appearance in certain shape and appearances. So not only that person, but each one of us is one form of Avalokiteshvara. And because it is said, if the living being, if a person in any realm must be saved or released or liberated, in the body of a Buddha, a reputation will appear as the Buddha's body. in this case, appeared as Shohaku, as a Japanese Buddhist priest, to allow me to be liberated from Shohaku, a Buddhist priest.

[32:41]

Does it make sense? So that is Avalokiteshvara. Avalokiteshvara is transforming or manifesting he or herself as each one of us, and each one of these things. And the image of Avalokiteshvara in the Kannonzo and also in the Heart Sutra are very different, but somehow we should combine these two images of Avalokiteshvara. And in the beginning of the Heart Sutra, Avalokiteshvara was talking about a friend deeply practicing Prajnaparamita, clearly seeing that five skandhas are empty, and relieving all sufferings. So this seeing emptiness of five skandhas is relieving all sufferings. When we image Avalokiteshvara in Kannon-gyo, something like a great person, he or she,

[33:49]

have compassionate heart, and when we are in trouble, she or he appears in certain forms to help us. That is the image of Avalokiteshvara in Kamongyo. But that is not the kind of image. As the actual Buddhist teaching, this is Avalokiteshvara. Avalokiteshvara is nothing other than five skandhas. There is no such thing called Avalokiteshvara besides five skandhas. So when we read the Heart Sutra, we have to understand Avalokiteshvara means five skandhas. So that means five skandhas see the five skandhas. and see though the five skandhas are empty.

[34:58]

So there's no... In that sentence, Avalokiteshvara is searching and five skandhas are object and Avalokiteshvara sees five skandhas and understands this is not really there. The sentence really says so. But if we understand in that way, we completely miss the point, you know, the person or people who made the sutra. You know, they wanted to, you know, cancel this separation between subject and object. So Avalokiteshvara is five skandhas. And so five skandhas see the five skandhas. and being unclearly seen, empty.

[36:01]

But there is no seeing. This is another point. There is no clear seeing. There is no seeing. No one sees anything. Nothing is seen. That is the real way of seeing. That is what, you know, Dogen, in Kaindan, I said, meeting, mutual meeting, or shoken, beyond usually common sense. That means we need this person and someone we want. And we have to apply that understanding with the understanding of the Heart Sutra. That means the conversation between Avalokiteshvara and Shariputra in the Heart Sutra is going on or happening within Buddha's samadhi.

[37:05]

Do you know that? Buddha preached something and he entered samadhi. And within Buddha's samadhi, as Shaliputra asked to the Avalokiteshvara. So this conversation in the Heart Sutra is actually happening within Buddha's mind. So there is no such separation between Avalokiteshvara and the Five Skandhas. That means the Heart Sutra is saying the Five Skandhas are empty. Five skandhas is five skandhas. Emptiness is emptiness. That is what Dogen Rinpoche said in the Makahanya Hanamsa. He didn't write a statement in the Heart Sutra. Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form.

[38:05]

So, he mentioned that I quote that phrase, but he said, form is form, emptiness is emptiness. That means, when we say form is emptiness and emptiness is form, there are two things. And by putting ease between these two, we want to say these two are one. But when we are doing such a thing, we are thinking, and five scandals, And emptiness is separate. Once these are separate, there's no way to make it one. So, if five scanners, four is really emptiness, then we don't need to say four is emptiness. When we say four, emptiness is already mentioned. When we say emptiness, four is already there.

[39:09]

Shiki ze, shiki kuusaku, kuu is Satogensei. Form is form. Emptiness is emptiness. Within emptiness, form is already there. And within form, emptiness is already there. You know, we need to understand this, about avalokiteshvara, and emptiness, and meditate also. This is to apply what is said in Kannon-ryo, the chapter of the Lotus Sutra. That means Aparajita Shura is not someone outside of this world, or beside this person. And when we are in trouble, the person comes to help me. That is called image of Avalokiteshvara. But that is not a fact. Realism. At least, at least don't believe, according to Bhagavad-Gita.

[40:16]

You know, these five skandhas are Avalokiteshvara's appearance. So this is the way Avalokiteshvara helped me to be released from five skandhas. So this, as I said this morning, This is manifestation, as shown. And at the same time, this is liberating from five scans. Because five scans are empty. That is the work of Avalokiteshvara. Make sense? Yes, except Avalokiteshvara and compassion, I mean, you know, this total function within the network of intelligent network relations.

[41:19]

And the way we are, like a bubble or a cloud, that itself, and we are seeing a five-scale mass, because we are supporting this entire network. This support from the entire network is... So Avalokiteshvara is not someone outside of this, and then he or she finds someone in trouble, appears with this sudden appearance, and takes that person. That's the kind of image we have. But that is not what it means as a Buddha Dharma. But each of us is already Avalokiteshvara. So we are here with these five skandhas as appearance or manifestation of Avalokiteshvara to manifest and at the same time liberate from this body and mind and from life and death.

[42:33]

So shohaku is manifest as shohaku, but shohaku is liberated from shohaku by itself. That's all that it means. And in fact, Zengen realized understood and he heard that that part of Kannon-gyo was a temple in this reality. So, this is what Dōgun meant. You know, each and every expression Bogenzen uses, coming from some part, we have to, you know, dislodge all explanation.

[43:36]

That's why it takes so much time to study Dogen. He makes tangents. Tangents. It's like, you have to go on a search. That is his universe. And for him that is very kind of familiar thing. And pick up everything from anywhere and create something very beautiful and meaningful. But because we don't know those things, so we have to look up, you know, find the origin and study each things and go back to his life. That's why Shobo Gendo is so... This is him to me. Maybe he has a computer. With that computer, I think everything is in his mind.

[44:42]

The universe of his mind. And he can freely use anyone he wants. Maybe he has like your diagram of everything coming, the arrows coming to him. Anyway, that, in my understanding, that's for this sentence. Fruits arising and ceasing is those who can attain deliverance through this coin. So, in my case, these five scanners. How about Tesshin-no-Kuchibara here? With these five scanners, to save Shofu, to relieve, liberating from shohak, shohak is karma, or karmic consciousness, and for preaching and expanding the Dharma. That is what this fruit arising and ceasing means.

[45:48]

And next one is from the Diamond Sutra. It is, the past mind cannot be God. I think I already talked about this phrase. Diamond Sutra says, the present past mind, kakoshin, is ungraspable. in the past. It's already gone. And the mind of future has not yet come, so there's no way to grasp it. And mind of present moment, this present moment has no limbs, so there's no way we can grasp it. So there's no way to grasp those minds in That is what the Diamond Sutra says.

[47:00]

That means there is no way to put this as alive or dead, or as short, as a five standards, or empty. That means we can say anything. Because anyway, it's not true. And if we are not deceived by those words and concepts, we can express this reality in different ways, in many ways. So, once we have to negate everything, then it, in a sense, we can say, divides. This is another meaning of the sword of taking life and the sword of giving life. Negation and affirmation. Both sides are at the same time or always there.

[48:05]

At least in Dogen's writings. From one side, he creates everything. But from another side, he uses anything to express the dharma. And it is, you got my mind also. Because it's not graspable, we don't grasp. So we ungrasp, we open our hands. That is how we are liberated. And it is, you've got my marrow. It is, you've got my bones. I think you know this expression. This came from the story of Dharma transmission, from Bodhidharma, the first ancestor When Bodhidharma was very old and he said he wanted to go back to India, he asked four of his students to say something about their understanding of Dharma.

[49:28]

And each of those four disciples said, first three of the four disciples said something. And Bodhidharma said, to the first person, you get my skin. And to the second person, he said, you get my bone. And to the third person, he said, you get my bone. And Shuriko, the second ancestor, was the last person. And she didn't say anything. But he just came in front of Bodhidharma and made prostration and looked down to his seat. So he didn't say anything. He didn't say anything. He just said, now this should go. I won't say, I won't say. But this wondrous dharma is beyond any permanent expression.

[50:32]

Bodhidharma said to the people, you attained my merit. That is the very well-known story. So, a common understanding of this story is the first person who attained Bodhidharma's scheme is still short of understanding. And the second ancestor, was deepest, so Bodhidharma said, you attained my level. That is a common understanding, but Bodhi is always against common understanding. He said, all of those four disciples really attained entire body of Bodhidharma. It's not a matter of shallow and getting deeper and deeper. There's no such ranks. But Bodhidharma's skin is the skin in Bodhidharma's entire body.

[51:47]

If we get Bodhidharma's flesh, we get Bodhidharma's entire body. Because when we, you know, in this network of interdependent origination, if we touch one part, we touch the entire net. So when we get Bodhidharma's skin, Bodhidharma's entire body is Dogen's logic, logic beyond logic. So, within this kāyīṃ sammāyī, this is happening. So this entire movement is set kāyīṃ sammāyī. And we are living, we are born, living and dying within this universal movement. And in our zazen, the same thing is happening in our mind.

[52:48]

So it's very dynamic. And no way to grasp or value or observe and judge. So it is full arising and ceasing. There is no substance called I. That is the essential point. When these dharmas cease, he does not say, I cease.

[53:57]

The time when he does not say, I cease, is precisely when the dharmas cease. Ceasing is the ceasing of the dharmas. Thought it is ceasing, it must be dharmas. Because it is dharmas, it is not the advantageous defilement. Because it is not the advantageous defilement, it is undefiled. Just this undefilement is the buddhas and patriarchs. It is called you are also like this. Who is not you? Prior thought moments and subsequent thought moments are all you. It is called I am also like this.

[55:01]

Who is not I? For prior thought moments and subsequent thought moments are all I. This ceasing is adorned with many arms and eyes. It is the unsurpassed great Nirvana. It is called it death. It is grasped it as annihilation. It is treated it as a dwelling place. There are so many arms and eyes. such as these are, in any case, the virtue of ceasing. The not stating at the moment when ceasing is I, and the not stating at the moment when arising is I, have the same class of not stating, but they are not stating of the same.

[56:11]

Until previous paragraph, he is discussing about arising, or ki. And from here, he talks about nets, or peshi, or system. And for many years, until I, I didn't really understand. I could understand the part of arising that he is discussing about chi or arising, but I didn't really understand where he discussed about medicine or ceasing the perishing. It was very... I didn't really understand the logic.

[57:15]

For example, if he starts... When this dharma ceases, he does not say, I cease. This is what is said in the vassal's statement. SO SHI HO ME SU JI FU REN Dharma, finish, I, are not saying or speak, I, or self, are finish.

[58:37]

So, the saying is parallel with same he said, when this Dharma arise, the Dharma doesn't say, I arise. So, zen, kana, perish, dharma. The dharma can say, I perish. So exactly the same thing, just a repetition. So there's no problem to understand this sentence. When this dharma ceases, he does not state, I cease. The time, when he does not state, I cease. The time when the Dharma says, I cease, is precisely when the Dharma ceases. I think it's okay. So without saying anything, the Dharma quietly disappears.

[59:41]

Arising and finishing without saying, now I am dying. Quietly So, ceasing is the ceasing of the dharma. So, there is no such thing called I that is dying or ceasing. Those different elements disperse. That is ceasing or vanishing. it is ceasing, it must be Dharma. So only Dharmas are there. And of course we have to say all those Dharmas are also empty. Next sentence. I don't understand the connection of here and the next sentence. Somehow Dogen started to talk about environment.

[60:47]

Because it is Dharma, It is not the Adventist reference. I don't really understand this English, Adventist. But this is a translation of Chinese expression, capital J. Kyabu is visitor or guest, and Jin is dust. And this expression, Kyabu Jin, is used in the teaching or theory of Tathagatagarbha as if our buddha nature or intrinsically pure mind is always there.

[61:52]

But the delusive or illusory thoughts are like visitors of a hotel. So this Buddha nature is like a host or owner of the hotel. These thoughts are like visitors. So they can go, they can leave. So all those delusive thinking or delusions that causes our problem are all those vistas. Vistas means, you know, when we encounter with certain object, somehow, In our mind something happens, like a desire, I want to kill that thing, or I hate that, I want to eliminate that thing.

[63:00]

That kind of things happen in our mind. And those are visiting that past. But the past is pure. free from any kind of birth defilement. So defilement came from outside. And defile this, this is like a, you know, miracle. And, you know, the famous verse by Jinshu said, our mind is like a bright mirror, but if we are not careful, all different kinds of dust stay on the mirror, and the mirror doesn't function as wisdom. So we have to always diligently practice and keep the dust up and keep the mirror round.

[64:13]

That is the idea of kyakujin. That is the word to be used here. That means, this is what I don't understand. Why this net is not a fire net? I understand he doesn't like this idea. That means there is no such divine. That is fat finesse. There is no dust and even no mirror. So there is no way to polish it. That is fat finesse. And Dogen also doesn't like this idea of polishing the mirror. to keep this mirror clean and pure. But what is this idea and perishing?

[65:16]

That is my question. I didn't really understand. You know, perishing means disappearing. Why? What is this? Because it is not the capital city, it is undefined. This is it. It's not clear in Nogen's original. So somehow he's talking about the perishing or disappearing, and defilement or undefined. I don't really understand the connection between these two. He didn't say to me, he didn't discuss about arising, about defilement or undefilement. He's saying that perishing is, it's not kakujin, it's not, therefore, I mean, it's just darkness.

[66:26]

So, kakujin, yeah, that is what he's saying. Right. What does it mean? I just have an impression, but he's talking about gag, right, time? And isn't one of the issues about karma, how it echoes into the next moment? Or something in that each individual moment is not a stream of defilement being handed off. That's all I... I'm still not sure. I think there's a kind of a logical leap here. What is the connection between ceasing or perishing and defilement or non-defilement? And in the process of my search, of teaching about the ocean in Pali Mikama, I found a very interesting short sutra.

[67:42]

And this sutra is about Samadhi, I think. This is a part of Samyutta Mikama. Probably this means something else. That is what I have guessed. So far, this key method, arising and finishing, simply means this movement, changing. But somehow, suddenly, this method may mean something different. That is, I think something is missing here. And when I read this short stanza from Arunikaya, I think there is something, I feel this gap.

[68:48]

That is, in this stanza about samadhi, in this translation it says concentration. And with, it's interesting, from the Parinikaya, concentration of samadhi and arising and perishing of five skandhas are mentioned or connected. So this is about the samadhi, and this sutra is talking about arising and perishing of five skandhas. I never intended to find such a thing, but somehow I found it. It says, this is the start.

[69:52]

Thus have I heard, at Sabati, certain town, there the blessed one, Buddha, said this, develop concentration, or samadhi, practice samadhi. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are. So when monks practice samadhi, they could see or understand things as they are. And Buddha continues, And what does he understand as it really is? The origin and passing away of form. The origin and passing away of feeling. The origin and passing away of perception. The origin and passing away of volitional formation.

[70:57]

The origin and passing away of consciousness. So those are five standards. and origin means arising, and passing away means perishing. So this is about concentration, meditation practice, samadhi, and arising and perishing of five skandhas. And first he talks about arising of five skandhas in samadhi. And he said, And fat is the origin of form. Fat is the origin of feeling. So he kept asking about five skandhas. And he said, here, one sees delight or pleasure, one welcomes, one remains holy.

[72:04]

And fat is it. that one seeks the light in. What does one welcome? To what does one remain holding? One seeks the light in thought, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As a consequence of this, the light arises, so pleasure arises. that sensation. And remain holding, the light arises. The light in form is clinging. So, the light becomes clinging, grasping. With one's clinging as condition, existence comes to be. With existence as condition, birth, and with birth as condition,

[73:07]

aging and death. So, from here he starts to talk about the 12 rings of causation. So from this green suffering occurs. So this is about four. And he says about other four skandhas. That is arising. That means welcoming and grasping. That is the moment the Five Standards arise. And about secession, Buddha said, here, one does not seek the right when you meet some object. One does not seek the right, one does not welcome One does not remain holding.

[74:09]

And what is it that one does not seek the right in? What does one welcome? Pardon? The right. The right. I'm sorry. Remain holding. And what is it that one does not seek the right in? What doesn't one welcome? To what doesn't one remain holding? One does not seek delight in form, does not welcome it, does not remain holding to it. As a consequence of this, delight in form ceases. Delight in form ceases. With the succession of delight, comes cessation of clinging. With cessation of clinging, cessation of existence, such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

[75:16]

One does not seek delight in feeling and continue, does not welcome it, does not remain holding to it as a consequence of this, the light in consciousness ceases. And Buddha said, this is a passing way of all. This is a passing way, that means perishing of all. So this arising and perishing in this state doesn't necessarily mean that things appear, stay for a while, and disappear. But it's about our attitude, whether we welcome it and grasp it, and try to keep this as mind and position. This is arising of five skandhas. And then we don't attach ourselves to each of those objects, or five skandhas.

[76:27]

That is called cessation of scans. To me, this is interesting. So this is not necessarily this arising and perishing. It's necessarily a kind of objective observation. But it has something to do with this person's position against or toward both things happening, arising and perishing. So if we don't grasp, then the 5 senses cease. If we grasp, 5 senses arise. So arising and perishing is within the relation between both 5 aggregates and this person. To me, this is really interesting. That means when we don't grasp, then we open our hands. Right skandhas are not there with right skandhas. That is the cessation of right skandhas.

[77:32]

I didn't think that kind of interpretation, understanding is possible. But if we apply this understanding, then this underlining and our perishing has some connection. That means it's not what Dogen is talking about. It's not simply one thought arises, stays for a while, and disappears. But when we open our hand, then those thoughts are not there anymore. That is, the time thought ceases, or five skandhas cease. Probably or possibly, that is what metsu or perishing or ceasing in this section Kyogen Zenji is talking about. That is my current understanding, the basis of my interpretation of what he's going to talk about this perishing or ceasing.

[78:45]

And it's already... So, I'm not sure if I can finish this and whether this can go ahead. What does opening the hand mean? Ungrasp. Ungrasp. This is what we generally say. When we think of something, we grasp something, we handle something. But when we, the king of thought, we open this hand, then this thing drop away, fall down. And he said, Uttama Lord said, this is the king of thought and mind. Then we open the hand of thought about this being, this five skandhas. Then this five skandhas

[79:49]

And just five skandhas become simply five skandhas. My thought, my feeling, my emotion, my ideas. That's how we grasp the five skandhas. When we open our mind, those five skandhas are released. At least, don't remove them from the mind. It disturbs us. It doesn't control us. It simply thinks I'm there. In that sense, in that case, it's like a, you know, when we are driving a car and put the gear at neutral, the engine is still moving, but we don't move. It also seems that an important aspect of what you've been saying for the last few minutes

[81:07]

Something about inside and outside, whether it be a defilement or something not so negative, it arises from inside? So those souls who are thinking, oh, I just cannot come and defile us. If we think in that way, then there's Separation between pure, clear, undefiled person is defiled by something coming from outside. So we have to ask them to leave. Like the owner of a hotel asks a good customer, just leave. That is a kind of dualistic way. pure. But what Dogen is suggesting us is, those visitors are not really visitors.

[82:32]

There is no such separation between owner of the hotel, owner of the inn, and visitor. This is one total function. So nothing to reject, but open your mind and work together. So it's really different from our own understanding of polishing the mirror, or sweeping the dust on the floor. So our practice is not like cleaning a mirror.

[83:18]