2010.08.09-serial.00129

00:00
00:00
Audio loading...

Welcome! You can log in or create an account to save favorites, edit keywords, transcripts, and more.

Serial: 
SO-00129

Suggested Keywords:

Photos: 
Transcript: 

We start page 3, the second paragraph of page 3. Arising is always, so let me read this part. Arising is always when the moment comes. Since this is arising as time, it does not fail to expose the skin, flesh, bone and mind. Because arising is the arising of combined two forms. Arising is this body. Arising is I arise. It is just the dharmas.

[01:10]

It is not simply hearing and seeing sound and form. It is the dharmas that are I arise. It is the I arise. It is the I arise that is, does not state. Does not state is not saying anything, for a saying is not a statement. When they arise is this dullness. It is not the twelve times. These dullness are when they arise. They are not the profuse arising.

[02:14]

So here, Togenzenji discusses about arising and time. Time is an important part of Togenzenji's teaching. Can we show Togenzenji the tool? Tool is being. Ji is time. Actually, this expression, uji, usually, commonly, in Aru-toki, that means one time, one-third of a time. But Dogenzenji leaves us u and ji, and u is being or existence, and ji is time. And in that chapter of Shobo Genzo, he said, Being is time, and time is being.

[03:27]

Besides time, there's no being. Besides being, there's no time. And in the end of this paragraph, he says, When they arise, it is not the 12 times. This 12 times means in the ancient times, in China and Japan, one day has 12 hours, not 24. I have a common understanding of time. Not understanding, but time means 24 hours. But whenever I talk about Dogen Zenji's Uji, I start to talk about my experience.

[04:31]

Once, when I lived in San Francisco, once I visited Ankara Zen Center. at Anchorage in the night. And I didn't know that. But when the airplane arrived at the airport, there was an announcement that there was another time difference between San Francisco and Anchorage. So I tried to change my watch. At that time, I had a question. Because I flew from the North Pole My question was, what time is it at North Pole? I didn't know. What time is it at North Pole? You know, Earth is round, and we separate into 24 parts of the Earth, and so there's

[05:46]

Time difference between each zone. So there are 24-hour difference. But at least two places on the Earth, there's no time. There's no way what time is it. To me, that is strange. There are at least two places, there's no time. There's no way what time is it. And I found that that kind of time, 12 hours or 24 hours a day, is simply a system created by human beings for our convenience. So it's a man-made thing. So time is a system created by human beings. There's no such thing as time. And I also thought, if Santa Claus lives on the North Pole, and he has a house within one room, at the center of the room, there's no time.

[07:00]

But around the room, there are... situation. That means there's no way to save our time, is it? Or something else. So, I think it's very clear that 12 hours or 24 hours is just a man-made system. It's not really there. But that system is, how can I say, we are working now I start to give a lecture at 0 o'clock. This is fixed. So I have to follow that time. And I have to finish by 4.30. But sometimes I'm not successful. But this is how our life is designed in this modern time.

[08:02]

So it's really powerful if we neglect this system of time and cannot work. in the society. So this time almost dominates our life. And yet that time is just a fabrication for and by human beings. So that is not real time. Then what else is time? Even if there is no time on the South Pole and North Pole, there is a passing of time. It's not a system. Time is a very strange thing. Buddhism, there are few ways of thinking about what time is.

[09:07]

And all of them, the time is not really existing. We can think or feel the time because of things changing. Actually, to interpret the change of things, our brain, our mind produces the concept of time. So time is a concept, not really an existing thing, but is a very basic idea of time in Buddhism. For example, in the Sarvāstivādan school in India, all Indian traditions, They thought time flies. We think time flies from past to present and present to future.

[10:14]

Past, present, and future. But they think opposite. They think time flies from future and go to the present and go away to the past. Does it make sense? So if it is true, this is our common sense. And this is one idea I have. Not only those Buddhist, Indian Buddhists, but Saint Augustine, in his confession, his writing, came from the future to the present moment and gone to the past. So there is another idea, direction of time. So even though this is a common understanding, we cannot say why this is true.

[11:20]

There is no reason. This is one idea. Another idea cannot be possible. And another example is Nagarjuna. Nagarjuna said time is based on darkness. Darkness means things. Because things change, we see time. And because even the darkness of things doesn't really exist, how time can exist? So time is not really exist. It's that concept we create in our mind to understand what is happening within and without ourselves. Even when we don't have time, we feel things are changing because within our mind some feeling or thinking arises and stays for a while and perishes.

[12:27]

is full, but gradually we feel hungry and we need to do something, have another meal. That is, and we kind of measure how long has passed since last meal. That is how we start to think about time. But time doesn't really But time and being are always together. Without being, or things, or time, there is no time. So here, Dore is talking about arising and finishing, and particularly arising. Sak is talking here is about the quote, that is, shi ho hi ji u gen ga

[14:00]

The time when this Dharma arises, it doesn't say, I arise. Fuguei is not saying, I arise. So this is a comment on this sentence. And time is here. So he said, arising is always when the moment comes. When the moment comes is another kind of a common expression in Zen. That means, in Shonogen no Bussho or Buddha Nature, Togen Zenji, called a saying of Zen Master Hyakujo or Bajin,

[15:26]

When the time arrives, or time and condition arrives, buddha nature appears or manifests. So this expression, time arrives, or the moment comes, means for something to happen, Time and condition is important. When something happens, those causes and conditions should be ready for this thing to happen. That is what this means. When time arrives, or the moment comes, so arising is always from the moment it comes. Togedeshi said exactly the same thing in busho of buddha nature.

[16:34]

That means the time is always here, always arriving. That means beside this present moment, there is no other time. This is only actual time. So we cannot wait for some time in the future. Future is still just a concept. And past has already gone. Only this moment is true time, real time. So time is always here. And arising is always happening right now, right here. There is no other time for dharma to arise. So the time when dharma arises, So, arising always when the moment comes, for time is arising.

[17:57]

Time is itself arising. Arising is time. What is arising? This is a question, Dogen's question to himself, and he answers, it should be arising. I guess not. This is from a kind of a poem story between Sōzen is the person whose name appears in this writing later. He is a disciple of Tōzen, or Rongshan, the founder of Chinese Sōdo school.

[19:10]

And the question and answer. This is Master Sozen and one of his monks. The monk asked to the Master Sozen. This is Karl Birnfeld translation, so you can find it in the handout. The monk's question is, who has fallen to the earth has ever arisen without depending on the earth. What is this falling? So, when we fall down to the ground, that means when we make some mistake or something very difficult happen, if you fell down on the earth, and we have to stand up

[20:15]

If we have some mistake and we have to restore our situation, we have to work on the exact point of the mistake. Then we can stand up. That is the meaning of this saying. So if we fall down to the earth, to the ground, we have to stand up ground, depending upon the ground. If we think ground is not reliable, or I cannot depend on the ground, there's no place to stand up. That is what this saying means. But Dogen-senji brought this saying in some chapter of Shogogen, I forget the title, but he said, He is a very unique person.

[21:38]

His way of thinking is very different from us. He said, if we fall down on the ground, there is no way to stand up depending on the ground. We have to depend on emptiness. Emptiness is cool, or cool in the same way as space or sky. So, in a sense, it started to make sense. In other common sense, other common sense, it started to make sense. What Hearth Token meant is, because of emptiness of all beings, this mistake is always for an entity. That I can stand up. We can start to refresh. If the mistake is really fixed entity, there is no way to restore, to recover from that pain, mistake or some loss. Because things are changing, impermanent and empty, we can start to refresh each moment.

[22:48]

That's why Dogenben said, we cannot, you know, stand up, arise, arise, arise, arise. Decide depending on emptiness or who. Anyway, This is the monk's question to Sozen. So his question was, what is this falling? He doesn't ask about the ground or sky, but he asks, what is this falling? Mistake. Then the master said, in Kalimbir translation, consent to it. The original Chinese is 口, soku. This 口 is to affirm or to accept

[23:56]

I'm not sure about consent. That means we should accept the mistake. But for that, for example, then, soku, ze means is, is, is, ze is, is ze, is. This, but also means good or right. That means when we fell down on the ground, Only good thing is accepted. Then we can find how to stand up again. I don't understand what you mean, only good thing is accepted. Accept that mistake or other situation or condition of fell down. So Kosokuze means we should accept when we fall down? Falling down? Acceptance is good.

[25:12]

So first we have to accept it. And then the monk asked again, What is this arising? What is this arising? So, fall down and arising. This sword and scepter are arising. That is HIN-YA. That means only arising. Just arising. Just arising. That means there's no method. There's no way how to stand up. Just stand up. But arisen is very different from just arising.

[26:18]

Arisen is kind of the past, isn't it? Yeah. So this is a problem of translation. In Chinese, Arise and stand up is one same word, hii. And this is this hii, the same hii in this hii. That five jogen can use alternately. So, pen hii. from here. This is very animus tone statement. Stand up. That's it.

[27:22]

So what is Dogenzen saying here using this expression, Sozen's expression, is this arising has no before or after. But at this moment, just arise. So in the koan, the student is, the monk is asking, what is it? But the teacher doesn't say what it is, he just says what to do. Right. Just another. And also, just accept it. Right. What is falling? He doesn't actually say what falling is, he just says, accept it. Right. So, But so-called thing is not a theory. But if you are on the ground, that's it. Accept it. And if it's not comfortable, stand up. So it's very direct, you know, teaching.

[28:29]

He has no theory. And if the theory doesn't work, then we are actually like that. All you can believe is to understand the situation, understand and accept the situation and somehow stand up. Go through the difficulty. Please just do it. Ah, here we are. So he said, fat is arising, then he gave this question to himself and he answered, it's just arising, just arising, nothing else. That means, that is the meaning of this word, huso, not relative, not with each other, not dualistic.

[29:41]

When it arises, it's just arising. It's not, when it's arising, it's not a matter of something is hidden, but it's come up and arise. If we think, we can think in that way, as a sequence of time. But as real reality, only this moment. Only this present moment is reality. So when it arises, it just arises. This is the same as Phat Dogen said in Genjo Koan. The moment of fire is just a fire. Firewood dwells in the nirvana position of fire. There's no past and no future. Even though there is past and future, before and after is cut off.

[30:46]

Only in this moment. The arising is a present progressive. That means it starts in the present and it continues into the future. Is that the way it's translated from the Japanese? I mean, it's a verb tense in English, present progressive. I'm not sure about the English grammar. Can someone translate this question? Do you have something? What you said this morning was that arising is just one translation, which means come into being. So I think it was Elizabeth said, like manifest, like it's manifest. There it is. So is that the sense? So in that sense, it's not really a verb, or it doesn't have that present progressive.

[31:54]

I mean, that's what the word is, arising. It's not functioning that way in the text. No, I think it's functioning that way. It's not a Chinese or Japanese problem, it's an English problem. So, it's moment by moment thing. So, since this is arising as time, it does not fail to expose The skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. That means the entire body. So when it arrives, the entire body is exposed. Nothing is hidden. Nothing is hidden. This is, you know, kind of against something is hidden.

[32:55]

Some, you know, two minds. or one mind, or mind nature is hidden. So we cannot see unless our deluded thought is completely illuminated, we cannot see the reality. But here Dogen says, nothing is very hidden. Everything is exposed. We cannot search anywhere else, decide what is actually happening right now, right here. It's not a matter of something happened in the past, or something being exposed in the future, or something hidden deep in reality, or deep

[33:56]

within ourselves. Everything is completely exposed as they are. The problem is we cannot see it. I'm sorry. Because we are part of it. There's no, as he said in the morning, there's no observer, so we cannot see. But it's nothing with him. There's no one who is seeing, who is observing. It's one complete reality that is happening. If there's someone who is observing, or observing how that thing is happening. Please. Some people say that time is non-linear. Time is not linear. And that everything is happening past and future. That is another idea of the Sarvastivadam teaching.

[35:08]

That is, you know, things are happening always past, present, and future. And time goes this way. So when time is here, it's happening here. I'm here, this is the present moment. But I don't think dogs are breathing. This is the idea that makes the dream of time trip possible. If the past is still there, that's why we can travel to the past. But if past is already gone and disappeared, there's no possibility to travel to the past. So that is another idea about time.

[36:08]

But I don't think Dogen agrees. Ah, here we are. So, because, next sentence, because arising is the arising of Combined to form. Combined to form and get together to make one whole of our body. Arising is this body. This body means this particular body. You know, all different various dharmas or elements in our human life, five skandhas. get together and form this body. And this body is a body of a particular person named Shohak.

[37:08]

And each one of you has a particular body. So all various dharmas get together as a as a knot of interdependent origination. So there are no, all nine have no particular personality. But they get together and form one body, which becomes one particular person's body. In this case, my shohaku's body. And this shohaku's body and mind. are different from other people's body and mind. And I can do certain things other people cannot or do not. Because I was born in Japan, I study Buddhism in Japanese. to understand Ndogen completely, at a certain degree I can read the fact he's saying in Japanese.

[38:26]

And because my teacher sent me to this country when I was 27, I had to study English. So somehow I can speak a little bit, even though my English is strange, not a common English. Not many Japanese Buddhist priests can talk about Dogen in English. So I have something I can do. With other people, not so many other people can do. That is my particular karma. So this particular body has its own karma. And each one of us have separate, not separate, different characteristics. So, we have a whole collection of different qualities and conditions and elements, dharmas.

[39:28]

Although dharmas are not identical, the same kind of dharmas, same atoms, or things, materials, form each body, and each body has some particularity. That is what Dōgen said here as he arriving at Gaki. Ga is self or in a sense, I. This is my body, Shōhaku's body. Akira's and Akira's body. Even though, and yet this particular body, I, has no, how can I say, substance. It's just a collection of many elements.

[40:32]

But when many elements get together, forms this body. And this body has a particularity as me. So he's talking from both sides. even though this self is empty, because this is just a collection of different elements. But he also said, if ten different elements get together, it becomes a particular thing, a particular person. And this body as shohaku, body and mind as shohaku, cannot be exchangeable. with other peoples. This is only shock. This is only body and mind shock I can use. And then I have certain particular youth function.

[41:35]

And for now I'm talking about Dogen in English. That is my my work, my world, and within my world you are here as a listener. So this is my world right now. I'm talking and you are listening. This particular room is my world. And so my shohak, being shohak, is not separate. If there are no listeners, I can't speak. If I speak without listeners, it's kind of strange. So speakers and our listeners are working together as in Dogen Zenji's expression, zenki, or total function. When I talk, you listen.

[42:39]

When you listen, I talk. And this is one pattern. Like a direct expression, you know, when teacher and... I taught this morning, when teacher and student meet, the separation between teacher and student disappears and becomes one Dharma. So he is talking both sides. There is no fixed entity as self. But when different elements get together, it appears. So this is the point of yin in kai yin. It's an image. It's not a fixed image. So it's changed. Because now I'm talking as a Buddhist teacher. I talk about Buddhism. When I'm at home, I'm not a teacher.

[43:43]

If I try to teach, my children can't listen. They are different from you. So to be a teacher is only one aspect of these five standards. So I'm not really a teacher. And for example, when I sit in the Zen hall facing the wall, I'm not a teacher. I'm not a father. I'm just as it is. There's no way to name it. When I sit facing the wall, I'm letting go of thought. This is just the beginning. So there are many ways to see one collection of memories. So arising is this body, and arising is I arise as a, not a fixed entity, but as an image of Shohak.

[44:58]

It is just banalness. So there's no fixed entity as Shohak, but Shohak is here as a role of priest, And that is important. When I'm talking about Provence teaching, this entire world, for me, is a world of Provence teaching. And people are listening to me. And he continues, Simply hearing and seeing sound and forms. Listening, hearing and seeing sound and forms are subject or sense organs and object of sense organs. So there's separation and interaction.

[46:03]

So that is our common way of thinking. Now I'm talking, you are listening. We are part of this network. We think this way. This is subject and this is object. This is the way, common way we think under the separation. So I hear something, or I see that thing, or I taste that food. So this is me, and there are some others as objects.

[47:12]

But after that is happening within this network. So we not only see this, but we are seen from all other beings. This is what Dogen meant. The boundless moonlight is reflected on each and every tiny drop of water. So we are like a drop of water. And the boundless moonlight is reflected on each and every drop of water. That's how we are doing. And a drop of water is a tiny thing. and that is really impermanent. It stays only for a few seconds.

[48:14]

But within this tiny drop of water, which exists only for a few seconds, its eternity is different. That is the world of kai in Zambia. So it is the dharmas that are I-arise. It is the I-arise that is, he does not say, I-arise, but it doesn't say again. It is not saying. Things are coming and going, arising and staying for a while, changing and changing, But no one can say, now I'm arising. Simply arise. And next he says a little strange thing.

[49:22]

He does not say, but he's forgetting. Not saying. He's not saying anything. For asen is not a statement. First, he said he does not state this is this fuken. But next, not sen, that is fudo. And this door is negative, so not the same. This door is the same door as a way or a path, but this also means the same.

[50:28]

This door and next A saying is not a statement. But he said, dōtoku is not gentoku. Both gen and dō is speaking. But this word, dōtoku, is a very important expression. in Dogen's teaching. That means we have to say something. The first book of Katagiri Roshi is returning to silence. The second book of Katagiri Roshi, you have to speak something.

[51:37]

So we have to return to silence, that means not speak, But we have to say something. And that is another important point of Dōgen teaching. We have to say something. We have to speak. We have to express the Dharma. So, this Dōgen is an important expression. But this Gen is just a common way of speaking. Anyway, what he's saying is When dharma arises, or the self arises as a collection of dharma, it doesn't say, I arise. But this not saying, I arise, is not saying. That means this arising without saying, I'm arising,

[52:40]

speak in the way of Dōtō. Is it also possible, say, expressing the Dharma, instead of just saying, like, passing through pictures and shadows? Yes, so, uh, arising without saying anything is not, not saying, not expressing the Dharma, but by simply just arise without saying, I'm arising, is the complete expression of life. In Shobo Genzo Doutoku, he told one story about Seppo was a great master.

[53:43]

He had a monastery on a great mountain. And near from his monastery, there was a hippie monk. He lived alone by the river, and he had long hair. So it seems he was a monk, but no one knew who he was. But it seems he was practicing meditation. So it seems that person was a Buddhist monk. And so then someone found this strange person, like a person sitting or practicing by himself in the big mountains. Seppo visited that person with a, what do you call it? Razor. And tell that person, if you say something, if you say something, I don't shave your head.

[54:52]

But if you can't say anything, I shave your head. I don't shave your head. Then the person just went down to the river and wet his hair. without saying anything, put his head in front of the seppu. So he didn't say anything, but this, you know, wet his hair and get to seppu's place, without saying anything, by gesture he said, shave my head. And Dogen Zenji said, that was the perfect expression of Dharma. So, Dōtoku is not necessarily speaking. We can express some of that Dharma with a gesture, or with saying anything, or with just

[56:02]

So this is what he is saying. Even though he thinks dharma is arising, he doesn't say, I arise. But this arising without saying is perfect expression of dharma. Then, when they arise, is these dharmas. It is not the twelve times. I think I already talked about this. These twelve times or twelve hours is our common sense, common understanding of the time as a system, conventional system. So what does it mean?

[57:08]

This time of arising is not within such a conventional system of time. And these dharmas are film arisings. They are not the profuse arising of three realms. Three realms are the realms of samsara. terms of desire and material and non-material. Those are three terms or three words of samsara. And within those three words, you know, there are many things arising, staying for a while and perishing. But as Dogen is saying, this arising is not the way things arising and perishing. in our common understanding of something is born, self-born, wild and despair within the system of desire or non-desire or beyond material.

[58:17]

That is a kind of our common understanding of categorize of the good and bad. But this is simply arising and perishing of dharma each moment without such a judgment. Whether deluding or enlightening, or comfortable such as a heavenly beings, or so peaceful like a heaven. Those are kind of observation and judgment. But it's simply arising, all there. We cannot say whether that is a hell, or a realm of hungry ghosts, or animals, or asuras, or heavenly beings. It's just there, without any observation and judgment.

[59:21]

That is Kali Samadhi. Next, Dogen Zenji, quote from the Lotus Sutra. An old Buddha said, suddenly a fire arose, probably because he used this word three Thank you. Sadhu. Bye now. and he has children and servants.

[60:47]

But once this person had to go somewhere, but while he was out, suddenly the fire started and the entire house started burning. That is the analogy of like we are living within the burning house of samsara. And a very similar expression, using this word, kotsumen, was suddenly appeared in the awakening of faiths. In this case, it's not fire, but it's a name, or an illusory thought, somehow, appears, alive, and our life becomes unsavory.

[62:02]

Even though our life itself is neither deferred nor pure. But because suddenly, somehow, thought comes up, our life becomes uncertain. But Dogenzin said, a fire alone is expressing the fact that this arising is not dependent on anything. So we don't know why. What is the cause of this fire alarm? And we don't know why we start to think, and make judgment, and make separation. We separate our things within our life into two, basically two sides.

[63:04]

One is positive, another is negative. Something we want, something we don't want, something I like, something I hate, something I think valuable or valueless, and somehow I want to get that side. And if we are in this side, we want to move from this side to that side. That is how our life becomes learning. Learning after something and escaping from something. That is samsara. But we don't know where this fire arise, where this, you know, the wind of ignorance came. In Buddhism there is no way. What is the cause of ignorance?

[64:05]

Ignorance is the first cause. And there's no teaching where everyone can go. Is that what you meant by no origination? Somehow it suddenly happens. And that suddenly happened. The situation we are living in is the starting point of Buddhist teaching. Making the distinction between the positive and the negative in the tensos, speaking to Dogen, he had to make a distinction between the sand and the rice. Otherwise, the sangha would be eating pebbles for dinner. And so at some point, making distinctions is a good thing. I mean, is it on a different level, or how does that work?

[65:08]

It's another important question. And that is the story up here in Tenzo Kyokun. Nice and sound. When a person who was tenzo is washing the rice, or before washing rice, select the stones from the rice. And a teacher, a teacher was Donshan, and the student was a seppo. Anyway, Tozon asked, do you select the stones from the rice, or do you select the rice from the stone? Sempo said, I throw everything away at the same time.

[66:17]

I don't care about such discrimination. Usually, rice is positive and stone is negative. I don't care about such discrimination. There's no distinction between good and bad, or rice and stone. Then the teacher said, if so, how do the assembly eat? Then Seppo really actually turned over the entire container of rice mixed with stone. but my understanding of this story is in the case of cooking rice is because rice is something we can eat and becomes nutrition of our body and stone is not so in the case of cooking rice is positive and stone is negative so we have to take the stone out but if we are

[67:33]

working on construction and making a company, we don't need rice when it stops. So, as a nature, as a basic nature, rice is not necessarily positive and stop it is not necessarily always negative. But it's a matter of how these things can be used. To do so, we need a discrimination, or distinction, or wisdom, between what we can eat and what stone can be used for something else. So, it's not a matter of positive or negative discrimination, but it's depending upon what we are doing, what is useful for certain others. So that is wisdom.

[68:36]

That is not discrimination. That is my understanding. Does it make sense? So, fire suddenly arises. But we don't know how the cause of fire is actually awareness. Of course this fire is made by our three poisonous minds. And what is the cause of three poisonous minds? That is ignorance. And what is the cause of ignorance? So, I continue to talk, but I have no end.

[69:43]

Then, he introduced another expression from Zen Koan. That is, an old Buddha said, When arising and ceasing, do not stop. That is life. This is from the koan appeared in the Book of Serenity, Shoi Yoroku, case number In Japanese, gan-to, gan-to, and ra-san.

[70:45]

Gan-to in Chinese pronunciation is yang-to, and ra-san is luo-san. Actually, this person you can call is the younger brother of Sokko, the person who throws both dice and stones. And they are the disciples of Tokusan. Tokusan is the person who was the master of the great scholar of the Diamond Sutra. the woman who sold the rice cake. He couldn't say anything, so he became a monk. So all those people are connected. And Laotian, or La-san, is Kanto's disciple.

[71:58]

Once this person, La-san, while he was practicing with other teacher, whose name was Sekisho. Sekisho was a disciple of Dogo. And Dogo was Dharma brother. And Onga is a teacher of Tozan. So they are all connected. Anyway, this person last time asked Sekisho. Sekisho is a famous Zen master for his practice of just sitting. And his Zen-do was named Koboku-do.

[73:01]

Koboko means dead tree. That means dead tree. That means in his monastery all monks are simply just sitting always like a dead tree without moving. So he was the original person of just sitting like a dead tree. Anyway, last time I asked When arising and vanishing go on unceasingly. What arising and vanishing is going on without ceasing? What is this? When sexual self You must be called ashes.

[74:06]

You must be called ashes. Ash. Ash. Man. A mild man become ash. Called ash. So you must be called ashes, a dead tree. So this is his practice. Just sit like a dead tree. And one thought for 10,000 years. Boxed and rejoining, pure and spotlessly clear. That was Seksho's answer to this question. Then things are arising and vanishing without ceasing. That means, Seksho's answer means we should keep singing at all. But Lassan didn't understand. was not satisfied.

[75:08]

So he visited another Zen master, Gan Togo, and he gave the same question. Thought, when arising and vanishing, go on unceasingly. Thought, again, same question. Ganto or Yanto shouted and said, whose arising and vanishing is it? Whose arising and vanishing is it? Then it is said, Roshan, Wadasan and Asura were united. So, this is He became enlightened in that moment?

[76:13]

Yes. So, Dogen said, I'm an old Buddha. So, when he said old Buddha, that means he really appreciated this question. You know, this question, you don't think this is Dogen's kind of a habit. When he did and a question as a statement. So Dogen doesn't say this is a question. He doesn't think this is a question. But this is a statement of real reality. That is, when arising the right Chinese, Ki, metsu, fujou, ji.

[77:14]

He is arising. Metsu is arising. or vanishing, and fu is not. And jo is stop. So arising and vanishing without stopping, without ceasing. And hai, when. When arising and vanishing doesn't stop, what is it? But as Bögel and Jochen, this question, this sentence, not as a question, but as a statement.

[78:18]

That means, you know, it's arising and vanishing, never stopping, always keep going. That means, This is not serving time. It's always, never stops. And this part, it comes with fat. And this fat is kind of a Zen expression that shows some true reality which cannot be named anything. So this reality or actuality of things are coming and going always, without ceasing, is the real reality, true reality of all things.

[79:24]

I think that is part of the message in this sentence, not as a question. all the buddhas, or cobras. Are you saying you would not translate as a question? Because this is a question. Dogen doesn't, Dogen did this sentence as a statement, not a question. But a statement, a question. That's not a question. So it's difficult to translate. You know, in Chinese we can read in such a way, but in English it's not possible. So, what can we do? We need to find another way of expressing Dharma. I think that's why Suzuki Oshi said, talking Dharma in English is hell.

[80:30]

Anyway, this... is a question and also at the same time a statement. Then, Dogen-senshi continues. So, in the Chinese, when you have an expression like this that is both a question and a statement, it's possible to read in It doesn't mean that it is both at the same time? No. But it is, in the original context of this story of porn, it must be. It's a scientific question. Yeah, absolutely, that is a question. Dogen is using it possibly as a statement, possibly as a question? It's Dogen's kind of a... Yeah. wordplay.

[81:34]

And that kind of wordplay that Dogen often did was possible probably because he was not a Chinese. For a Chinese person this is a question, definitely a question. If we, if someone, some Chinese person made a statement that is strange or a mistake, grammatical mistake, but Probably because Dogen was not a Chinese person, this is a foreign language. He can read... When we study a foreign language, we try to check each and every word and think about what this entire sentence means. So, in a sense, he kind of deconstruct a sentence into each word and he could read completely different way.

[82:46]

But for Chinese people, that is just nonsense. So in English, would it be similar to something like a rhetorical statement? For example, if you say, what are you talking about, then you're asking a person what they're talking about. But if you say, what are you talking about? Then you're not really saying, what are you talking about? You're saying, you're talking about something not so good, or it's actually a statement rather than a question, even though it's a question. Yeah, I think that's the same kind of thing. So language is, is also not the kind of... language is also empty. It doesn't have a fixed self-nature. Depending on how to use and in what situation it is used, it can mean in different ways.

[83:53]

That is kind of a, you know, fun talking and joy. And we suffer.

[84:04]