I finished talking until the third paragraph of page 42. So I start from the last paragraph of that page. This is the section Uchiyama Roshi explains or describes how to practice the Zen. And so far he described how to cross our leg, you know, through lotus position or half lotus position or Burmese or quarter lotus position or Burmese or sitting in caesar or sitting on a chair. And now he starts to talk about upright posture, upright posture of the upper part of our body.

[01:11]

Yesterday afternoon, Annie asked about the diagrams in this book, the version of this book. As I said, this is not the same one with the original in Japanese. So I'll show you. The diagram Uchamoroshi made for his Japanese version is only Zabuton and Zafu. And full lotus and half lotus. That's it. So this is made in America. And Cosmic Mudra. That's all. And next one, kind of interesting, is also different. In page 54, you know, the diagram of, you know, that then if we think, start to think, you know, the image grow and grow.

[02:30]

And when we sleep, we dream. This is also a little bit different from what Uchimura wrote in Japanese. So those diagrams are made for this version. So it's really different, whether we think it fits better. Anyway, the last paragraph, page 42. So this is after we put our legs in flotus or half flotus or any way. Then straighten your back. with your buttocks naturally, but firmly pushing outward, and your pelvis slightly tipped forward.

[03:41]

So when we sit across our legs, we make our upper part of our body stay straight up. So in order to make a kind of a natural S-curve of the spine, What I do is first I lean my upper part of my body to the front and try not to move the lower back, but return to the upright posture, like this. Then the spine has a natural S-curve, like this. That is what he meant here. But we should not have any tension on the muscle. That is important. The posture should be straight, but no muscle has any tension.

[04:42]

If we have some tension, we will have pain there. So it should be straight and yet relaxed. That is a kind of a difficult point. Your neck straight. So when we sit, our neck should always straight. When we receive the Zen instruction in Japan, we are taught that your neck should touch the color of your kimono. So it's not like this. If we bend our neck like this, there's a space between your collar and neck. So the neck is right. There's no space between the collar and neck. So it's like this. So neck should be straight. And pull your chin like this. Keep your neck straight and pull in your chin.

[05:46]

Close your mouth and put your tongue firmly against the upper palate. So we put our tongue on the upper roof of the mouth. So we don't breathe through our mouth during zazen. We do breathing through our nose and we try not keep any air in our mouth. And project the top of your head as if it were going to pierce the ceiling. So then we make our neck straight and pull our chin. It seems like we pierce the ceiling with the top of our head, like this.

[06:52]

And it said the center of our head should be the center of the zafu, So it should be really straight. Relax your shoulders. Rest your hands at the crease of your torso and thighs with your right hand palm up in your lap. and your left hand in the palm of the light. We put hand, you know, overlap the finger like this and make an oval with our thumb.

[07:54]

like this, and the tip of the thumb is above the height of the navel. Your thumb should touch lightly just above your palms. This is called the cosmic mudra, or hokkai-jo-in. Keeping your eyes open. So when we sit, we sit keeping our eyes open. We don't close our eyes. So we make our neck really straight and pull our chins and keep our eyes open. And yet we lower the line of eyesight down like this. So our eyesight goes about three feet in front of our body.

[09:00]

So naturally, our eyes are not wide open, but half closed, half open. And the important point is we don't focus on anything. We just keep our eyes open without focusing on anything. When we sit in front of this kind of wall, it's okay, but when we sit in front of the wooden wall, wooden walls have different patterns. I don't know when, where, but when I sat in Sattvin Zendro, in front of my eyes, I saw what they call the knot, yes. And it's really difficult to ignore this thing. So naturally I focus on this thing and it's really a problem.

[10:08]

This thing becomes bigger and much smaller. It moves. So it's not right. So better to move it even a little bit. Try not to leave that thing in front of our eyes. So it's important. And also if we focus on one thing for such a long time, our eyes become strange and we may have pain on the muscles. So it's important to sit in front of the walls without any pattern. or if there is some pattern, it's become a kind of a, it's like a, I don't, I forget the name of the test, you know, psychological test, and we put the, you know, ink, and it becomes certain, you know, things, and it becomes like daydreaming.

[11:12]

So it's not good. It's better to have a wall without any patterns. So keep your eyes open, look at the wall. I don't think this word, look at, is a good word because we don't look at. We just keep our eyes open. and drop your line of vision slightly. Once you have taken the zazen position, upright position, open your mouth and exhale deeply. This will help change your whole frame of mind. In order to work out the stiffness in your joints and muscles, slowly swing two or three times to the left and right, finally settling in an unmoving upright posture.

[12:25]

Once you are still, breathe quietly through your nose. The important thing here is to breathe naturally from the tanden, an area in your belly a little below the navel. Allow long breaths to be long and short breaths to be short. rather than trying to control each one. Do not force your breathing or make noise by breathing heavily. The zazen posture is a marvelous posture because it is the best one for throwing out for petty human thought. This last sentence, I think, is the introduction to the next paragraph. Actually, in the Japanese, this is the beginning of the next paragraph.

[13:28]

Anyway, so this is about zazen. So when we make our posture upright, we open our mouth and exhale deeply. That means we exhale as if all the air inside our body go out. So exhale thoroughly as if no air left within your body. So exhaling, you know, without making noise, thoroughly. And when we finish exhaling, we close our mouth. and inhale through our nose. This means that all the air inside goes out and new fresh air comes in through the nose.

[14:43]

So that's why Ucchiamroji says we feel refreshed. And we can repeat this three or four times. So in the beginning we need to have some exercise, but after a while you can do this very naturally without thinking about it. So... After doing this deep breath before sitting still, we sway our body so now mouth is already closed. and we sway our body right to left, either is okay.

[15:48]

And in that case, usually, I put our hands, palm up on the knee, like this, and move like this. First, the movement is large, so as large as I move until I feel a little pain on this side, this part. and the opposite side. Then make the movement little by little small. But each time I try to bend, sway, as far as I have some pain here. In Chinese, in some Zazen instruction, this is called Amma. Amma is the same word with massage. So this is for relax our muscles. And finally we move only our neck like this until we have some little pain on this side and this side.

[16:55]

And then it becomes little by little and finally it stops. And this is the starting point of zazen. growing other than the natural way, what is the reason for it? I don't know. I never done that. And I never actually taught by actual person. I never met actual person who practice in that way. But I read in books. And some people in Rinzai tradition, they do in that way. But I never done it, and I don't understand why. Yeah. Did you hear the explanation why?

[18:00]

Yeah. What I heard was the way that he said it was to sort of speed up samadhi. Speed up samadhi. He didn't use those words, but he said, you know, and then he said if you put a little, what do you call, pressure, not pressure, but energy below the time then, it's easier to sink down. And he said one way to do that is resist the going out and then resist it coming in. But he didn't say do it the whole period. He said it was a way to... Oh, only the beginning. Yeah. Aha. Ways to settle down to help get the energy independent. And he, and he, not exactly his words, but you have to hear what naturally one's abdomen wants to go out, like you described. And he said, as you resist that a little bit, naturally your attention's down there.

[19:10]

Yeah. And then, as you, and the same with the... That makes sense. Now I'm reminded of a detail that I heard, which is not the same thing that Tony heard, but it was to push your diaphragm downward. By breathing opposite way? Well, it was not clear. It came from two different books. I can clear that for you. Good. Please. We're taught a technique called susukon. Although I see that you all use the same phrase, but susukon... You mean susukukon, counting breath? No, we're not counting the breath, but...

[20:11]

You're holding tension in your diaphragm, but we are breathing normally. I don't have a breathing breath. Yeah, when I take an in-breath, the diaphragm goes out. But as you go to breathe out through your nose, you make it like talk through your diaphragm, and it still hooks in, and also you have your breath hitting the back of the top, and it makes a lot of noise, and sometimes I accidentally do it without even thinking about it. So is that the way of breathing taught in that tradition? Yeah, it's taught. It's not taught to everybody. So it's not common. It's taught to the Yeah, but it's taught, and it's more, isn't it so much, well, I mean, samadhi might end up being a reflection of it, but it's taught more like, I guess you'd call it samadhi, but it really, you can get really concentrated.

[21:15]

Focus. Super focus, doing that, but. Without consciously doing it, at least I cannot do it, that kind of breathing. So it must be really focused, concentrated on breathing, I think, if we practice in that way. Yeah, you are totally focused on just breathing, nothing but breathing. So you forget breathing. Aha. So when you forget, you stop doing that way? You breathe normally? Or when you get used to it, you can breathe in that way normally, naturally, without thinking, without intention? Yes. Hmm. I mean, I think anybody that did do it, you would notice, because you're like, you're an audible sound, actually.

[22:23]

But yeah, you can do it, but it really makes it concentrated until it just becomes a rhythmic thing without thinking about it. You know, but of course usually people have pro-ons or something like that. A lot of times the focus also would be on mu with the out breath. You know, not out loud in your thought movement. Or whatever, the pro-on. I see. Anyway... But we don't do that here. Yeah, that's different from our practice. Utyamurasi always said we should breathe as natural as possible, as if the best breathing is we forget breathing. and just air comes in and goes out naturally as a natural function of our five skandhas. It has nothing to do with how we breathe.

[23:25]

And that came from Dogen's teaching about breathing in the Zen. And Uchiyama Roshi quote in his note in this book, Dogen's teaching is from Eihei Kolog. And it is in the end note in this book, page 176. In this version, the note is underneath. I don't know which is more convenient, but this Dharma discourse from Ehe Korok is only teaching about breathing by Dogen. So we follow this teaching.

[24:29]

And of course, there are different interpretations possible. I came to this country in 1993. I met someone who practiced with Suzuki Roshi and later Katagi Roshi and finally with me. The person said, Suzuki-rosi taught counting breath, Katagiri-rosi taught watching breath, and I taught do nothing. So the person is really confused. And all those three came from this teaching of Dogen, how to interpret this Dogen teaching. So I'd like to introduce what Dogen said about breathing in the Zen. from in Ehe Korok. And there is a translation in this book that I'd like to introduce my or our translation from Ehe Korok.

[25:38]

The meaning is not different. There's no misinterpretation, but just to make, you know, a comparison. I mean, both are my translation and both are a little bit different, but not so different. Volume 5. Volume 5, Dharma Discourse 390. So in this book, page 348. And the title we made, we mean, Taigen, Dan Layton, and me, made on this Dharma discourse is How to Breathe in the Zen.

[26:45]

It's quite a long Dharma discourse, but let me first read the entire discourse. It's about two pages, and I talk sentence by sentence. How to Breathe in the Zen, 390, Dharma Hall Discourse. In the zazen of patch-robed monks, first you should sit correctly with upright posture. Then regulate your breath and settle your mind. In the lesser viku, originally there were two gateways, which were counting breaths and contemplating impurity.

[27:52]

In the lesser viku, people used counting to regulate their breath. However, the Buddha ancestors' engaging of the way always differed from the lesser vehicle. A Buddha ancestor said, even if you allow the mind of a leprous, leprous wild fox, never practice the self-regulation of the two vehicles. The two vehicles refer to such as the School of the Four Paths Vinaya and the Abhidharma Kosha School, which have spread in the world these days. In the Mahayana, there is also a method for regulating breath, which is knowing that one breath is long, another breath is short.

[29:01]

The breath reaches the tandem and comes up from the tandem. Although exhale and inhale differ, both of them occur depending on the tandem. Impermanence is easy to clarify, and regulating the mind is easy to accomplish. My late teacher said, breath enters and reaches the tandem, and yet there is no place from which it comes. Therefore, it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanden, and yet there is nowhere it goes.

[30:06]

Therefore, it is neither short nor long. My late teacher said it like that. Suppose someone were to ask Eihei, Master, how do you regulate your breath? I would simply say to him, although it is not the great vehicle, it differs from the lesser vehicle. Although it is not the lesser vehicle, it differs from the great vehicle. Suppose that person inquired again. Ultimately, that is it. I would say to him, exhale and inhale are neither long nor short. Someone asked by John, the Yogacara Bhumi Shastra and the Jewel Necklace Sutra contain the Mahayana precepts.

[31:23]

Why don't you practice according to them? Vaijana said, what I take as essential is not limited to the greater or lesser vehicles and does not differ from the greater or lesser vehicles. I condensed and combined the extensive scope of regulations to establish standards for appropriate conduct. Baizhan said it this way, but Eihei is certainly not like this. It is not the case that it is not limited to the great or small vehicles, or not different from the great or small vehicles.

[32:26]

What is this small vehicle? The affairs of the donkey are not complete. Fat is this great vehicle. The affairs of the horse have already arrived. Not the extensive scope means the extremely great is the same as the small. Not condensed means the extremely small is the same as the great. I do not combine but gallop over and drop away, great and small. Already having accomplished this, how shall we go beyond? After a pause, Dogen said, When healthy and energetic, we do zazen without falling asleep.

[33:32]

When hungry, we eat rice and know we are fully satisfied. That's it. So this is a teaching about breathing. it's kind of very interesting way of saying and we can interpret in different ways. So Dogen's way of expressing his idea is kind of very clear and yet not so clear. We can interpret from different ways. Anyway, I talk sentence by sentence. So this is about breathing in zazen. And he said, this breathing in zazen is not simply breathing, but this is about chosoku within zazen.

[34:43]

How to, I think we use the word regulate, regulate breath. But I'm not sure this regulating is right word or not. As I said, another possible meaning is harmonize. Put it in harmony or put it in order. Anyway, Dogen starts to talk. as follows, in the zazen of patch-lobed monks. Patch-lobed means this okesa. This is a patched robe. Monks means monks who put on okesa. First, you should sit correctly with upright posture, as Uchama Roshi described until the previous paragraph. Then, regulate or harmonize your breath.

[35:49]

and settle your mind. This settle your mind is another thing about this mind. And in this case, instead of this cho, he used chi. And we translate this chi as to settle down, calm down. So posture, breathing, and regulating or harmonizing mind are the three important points. And here Dogen talks about how we regulate or harmonize our breath. In the Lesser Vehicle, Lesser Vehicle is the translation of Hina-Yana, Hina is small, and Hina in Japanese is sho and jo.

[36:53]

Sho is small. Jo is vehicle. And Mahayana is called daijo. Of course, these two are not the terms used in the Buddhist groups beside Mahayana people. So there's no such group of Buddhists who call themselves Hinayana. This is a word used only by Mahayana Buddhists to kind of criticize the traditional Buddhism before Mahayana. So today we don't use this word Hinayana or Shoujo to refer to any other Buddhist tradition outside Mahayana.

[38:08]

So we should not use this word Hinayana to refer to some group of people because there are no such people consider themselves Hinayana. Mahayana is like a protestant, criticizing the traditions of early Buddhism before Mahayana in order to make a distinction that we are not same with those people and they wanted to say we are better than those people. You know, they have to use these words. So today we don't use Hinayana at all. But I think until when I was a university student in Japanese Buddhism, This word is used, and they said, so-called Buddhism in Southeast Asian countries are called shoujo or hinayana.

[39:20]

But today, no one uses such a word. They call, you know, Buddhism in... Asian countries such as Thailand, Burma, as a Theravada. That was a name they used to call themselves. So we never use this Hinayana anymore. But the problem is when we translate the text written by Mahayana people, and this word is used in that text, how we translate this word One time, when we worked together, Tom Wright tried to translate shojo as Theravada. That caused another problem. In Dogen's writing, Dogen used this word, hinayana, and we translate this as Theravada in order to avoid this word, hinayana.

[40:26]

then this means Dogen Zenji criticized Theravada Buddhism. But Dogen Zenji never knew what Theravada Buddhism was. He only understood so-called Hinayana Buddhism criticized by Mahayana. So this word is only used within Mahayana context. So if we translate this word as Theravada, that is a problem. For example, if we read this, you know, in Theravada Buddhism, you know, they practice, you know, counting breath. And he said, we should never practice in that way. Then Dogen was against Theravada tradition. But Dogen has nothing to do with, you know, the Theravada tradition today practiced in Buddhist countries in Asia and in this country.

[41:33]

So in order to avoid that second problem, we I mean, when I make my translation, I use this word, hinayana, or in this translation we use lesser vikru, or smaller vikru, in order not to make that confusion. Dogen was talking about certain approach to practice, to Buddhist practice, at the time of Mahayana, And criticized by Mahayana people, we should use this word shojo or hinayana only in that way. So we must be careful about the usage of this word. So anyway, in this translation, we use lesser vehicle.

[42:38]

In the lesser vehicle, originally there were two gateways, which were counting breath and contemplating impurity. Counting breath is a method of meditation practice mentioned in the early Buddhism. And contemplating impurity is another method of meditation practice. Sometime Buddhist monks went to the forest that is used as a graveyard. It's said in India, at some places, people just leave the dead body in the forest. And so monks went to the forest, the graveyard and sit actually facing the dead body and observe the process of decaying of the physical body in order to see, you know, this body cannot be the object of attachment.

[44:03]

That is a practice to become released from attachment to our own body. But it seems later that practice is too kind of extreme. In some early Buddhist sutras, it's not really watching the dead body, but contemplate or visualize the process of that decay. So it became a method of contemplation. That is one approach of meditation practice in early Buddhism. So as a method of harmonizing breath, this counting breath is used. And it's still used very commonly.

[45:11]

In the lesser vehicle, people used counting to regulate their breath. So they count breath from 1 to 10. and repeat. However, the Buddha ancestors' engaging of the way always differed from the lesser viku. So Dogen says, our practice in Zen, that is what Buddha ancestor means, Zen practitioners, Zen masters' way is different from this method. Branch Hartman once said, when he started to practice the Zen with Suzuki Roshi, she was taught to practice counting breath.

[46:16]

And after for a while, she said, during Doksan, she said, now I can count breath, easily read ten and repeat any things. And she asked, what next? Then Sugiroshi was scolded. You should never say, I'm done. Anyway, so to count breaths and completely can do it is not the goal or purpose of this practice. So if counting breaths is the practice, keep counting. So this is not, at least in Zen, this is not a stage-by-stage practice, step-by-step practice. Anyway, so counting breath is one of the ways to regulate or harmonize our breath.

[47:23]

But Dogen said it's different from our ways. A Buddha ancestor said, Even if you allow the mind of a leprous wild fox, never practice the self-regulation of the two vehicles. The reason why I don't want to translate this word as regulate is this word. Dogen used the same kanji here. Not Dogen, but this is a saying by Nagarjuna. from Daichi Doron, or the Commentary on the Mahaprajna Paramita Sutra. And the word Nagarjuna used is ji-cho. Ji-cho. Ji is self. So if we practice, sit in this upright posture and try to regulate ourselves, how to breathe, how our mind works, that is self-control or self-regulation.

[48:38]

And not only Dogen, but Nagarjuna criticized that kind of practice. The person sitting or practicing Dazen is like an operator of the car. And try to control the movement of the car. and we control the bodily posture, breath and mind. If with image our zazen is like that, then we lose the sight of Mahayana practice. As I often said in the Heart Sutra, in the very beginning, the first sentence of the Heart Sutra, if we think there's a person whose name was Avalokiteshvara, sitting in the Zen, and seeing the Five Scandals, And with the aid of the prajna parameter, this person could see those five channels are empty.

[49:51]

Actually, that is what is said in the first sentence of the Avalokiteshvara. But if we understand what is written in the Heart Sutra, and what we do in other than in this way, we completely lost the point. That means if we think there are five skandhas outside of Avalokiteshvara as an object, that is a mistake. Avalokiteshvara is nothing other than five skandhas. So five skandhas are not the five skandhas outside or object, but these five skandhas, not something outside of the person. And these five skandhas are empty.

[50:54]

That means Avalokiteshvara himself is empty. And wisdom that allows us to see the emptiness is, you know, this five skandhas itself. So there's no such things, you know, the person who is sitting and the object of that meditation and the reality that is emptiness of these beings. And with the help or device of prajnaparamita, this person sees not only the sure face, but also the reality of these beings. If we understand in this way, that is written in the Heart Sutra, although it is written in this way. There's no other way to write using words. But that is not really true. And if we think, you know, other than, you know, this person can control this, you know, body and mind like a driver of the car or operator of the machine,

[52:06]

then it's really a mistake. It's really against the reality of emptiness. Emptiness means there's no such separation between self and object. That is the meaning of self-control. So the two vehicles, two vehicles means Shravaka and Pratyekabuddha. Those two vehicles are considered to be the small vehicle or shinayana. The two vehicles referred to such are the school of the four-part vinaya. Four-part vinaya in Japanese is shibunritsu. This is Vinaya, and Shibun literally means four parts.

[53:22]

But this is one of the Vinayas translated from Sanskrit to Chinese. There are three or four Vinayas were translated, and this is one of them. And one of the Chinese Buddhist masters whose name was Dōsheng, he was a contemporary of Genjo. Genjo was a person, but it's Genjo in Chinese, I forget, but Genjo was a person who went to India by himself, Tran Tran. He was a great translator. And also a founder of hosso, or Chinese Yogacara school. This person, Dosen, helped Chuan Chuan's translation work. So he lived in the seventh century.

[54:25]

And he studied this Vinaya. And he founded his own school named Shibun Ritsu Shiu, School of Shibun Ritsu Vinaya. This is the Vinaya school where people really studied Vinaya, focused on studying Vinaya and trying to keep the Vinaya. And this school was transmitted from China to Japan by the famous Chinese master. What's his name? Oh, Ganjin. in the eighth century, I think, eighth century, until this Chinese master, Ganjin, came in Japan.

[55:28]

Buddhism was already there in Japan for 300 years. about 300 years. But Japanese, in order to receive the Vinaya and to become an official Buddhist monk, to do the ordination ceremony, in that tradition they need at least ten fully ordained monks, masters, three preceptors and seven witnesses. And until Ganjin came, Japanese didn't have such masters. So there was no official ordination done. But this person, Ganjin, who was already very well-known, teacher in china came to japan with many of his disciples and after that in japanese buddhism you know this receiving the denier priesthood became possible

[56:44]

So this Ritsu school or Vinaya school existed in Japan at the time of Dogen for about 400 years. But Vinaya school or precept or practice of Vinaya never became so popular in Japan because of Maybe I already talked many times why Japanese people didn't like Vinaya. During the precept retreat I talked Maybe this year, maybe I didn't. But anyway... I'll ask you then. Yeah, next year. I don't have enough time. I need to finish this course today. Anyway, so Dinaya School was one of the so-called Hinayana schools existing in Japan at the time of Dogen.

[58:00]

And another one is Abhidharma Kosha School. Abhidharma Kosha is written by Vasubandhu. Vasubandhu, of course, was one of the most important Yogacara school masters, philosophers. But Vasubandhu wrote this text before he became Mahayana Buddhist. So this Abhidharma Kosha in China and Japan is a very fundamental text to study Abhidharma teachings. And this was also introduced to Japan in the 6th or 7th century. which have spread in the world these days. In the Mahayana, there is also a method for regulating breath, chosoku, which is known that one breath is long, another breath is short.

[59:13]

This means to watch the breath and to see long breath as long, short breath as short. This method is mentioned in the Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra, not the Heart Sutra, but the larger one that has 600 volumes. But part of it, it is said, we, the bodhisattva, when sitting, watch the breath and see long breath as long, short breath as short. The breath reaches the tanden, tanden is the lower part of our abdomen, and comes up from the tanden. So we breathe deeply as if air goes into tanden here, a little bit below the navel.

[60:17]

Although exhale and inhale differ, both of them occur depending on the tanden. So tanden is the basis of this breathing. And also tanden is considered to be the center of the gravity when we sit. Impermanence is easy to clarify. And regulating the mind is easy to accomplish. So this deep breath from abdomen is helpful to calm down and seeing the impermanence. That means our mind doesn't go here and there, but stays here and sees things are changing. So this counting, watching breath is kind of a method to help our mind calm down.

[61:28]

So this is Mahayana method of regulating or harmonizing our breath. And next he introduced his teacher, Tientong Gujin, said, a breath enters and reaches the Tanben, same as it is said in the Prajnaparamita Sutra, and yet, the master has always said, and yet, and yet there is no place from which it comes. So air is just circulating this entire world, coming and going, so we cannot tell where this air comes in, comes into our body. Therefore it is neither long nor short. So we cannot consider if this breath is long or short.

[62:33]

And actually we can breathe only one breath at a time, so we cannot compare if this breath is longer or shorter. unless we think and observe this present current breath and compare this breath with the breath in the past. If we do such a thing, we don't really focus on breathing. So there's no way to see one breath to be long or short. Long or short is really kind of a relative kind of a concept. How can we say one breath is long or short, please? read someone who had a way that wasn't about comparing. And I could share it or I could not share it.

[63:35]

Please. He said that, well, if you breathe and your breath goes into your lungs, then it goes down into your abdomen. But if you breathe even more deeply, then it goes, you find your lungs expand a little more. And he said, only then should you call it a long breath. Only others are short breaths. Okay. Again, that is a comparison. At the time when we are sitting and breathing, can we observe that the air goes and the lungs free expand? If we are observing that thing, there is a separation between the person observing and the breath and the lungs. Yeah, usually that is called a contemplation or watching. But the point Fat Dogen wants to say is if there's such a separation between observer and the things happening, then that is not samadhi.

[64:45]

So Dogen's point is kind of, how can I say, unique, but I mean, probably many Buddhist practitioners don't agree with what he is saying. And this is not Dogen, but his teacher, Tendo Nyojo. Therefore, it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tandem when we exhale. Air comes from tandem. And yet there is nowhere it goes. Therefore, it is neither short nor long. So there's no such comparison and observation possible. That is what Tenton Ryujin said.

[65:49]

And my late teacher said it like that. Suppose someone were to ask Eihei, Eihei means Dogen himself, Master, how do you regulate your breath? How do you harmonize or regulate your breath? And Dogen said, I would simply say to him, although it is not the great viku, so he said his practice is not great viku or Mahayana, It's different from the lesser vehicle. So he's saying his practice is neither Mahayana nor Hinayana. Although it is not the lesser vehicle, it differs from the great vehicle. So neither Mahayana nor Hinayana. Suppose that person inquired again, ultimately what is it?

[66:52]

I would say to him, exhale and inhale are neither long nor short. So Dogen agreed with his teacher, neither long nor short. And he said, this is not Mahayana, and this is not Hinayana. So there are, you know, And the next part, the final part is also important to how we can interpret what Dogen is saying. Someone asked Bai Zhang, Bai Zhang is Hyakujo in Japanese, who was the person who traditionally, this person, Hyakujo, was considered to be the first Zen master who compiled Shingi. Shingi is a pure regulation or pure standards for Zen monasteries.

[67:57]

So this person, Hyakujo or Baijan, established Zen regulations that are different from Vinaya regulations or precepts and also Mahayana precepts. That is the point of this question. The Yogacara Bhumi Sutra and Shastra and the Jewel Necklace Sutra contain the Mahayana precepts. Both this Yogacara Bhumi Sutra is made in India, in the Yogacara school. And this Shastra is the first text mentioned the threefold pure precepts. And the Jewel Necklace Sutra is considered to be made in China, but in this sutra also the threefold pure precept is mentioned.

[69:09]

So, you know, Mahayana precept is there. But Hyakujo, or Baizhang, established so-called Zen Why don't you practice according to them? That means, why did you make regulations only for the Zen community? Then Vajrayana said, Fat I take as essential is not limited to the greater or lesser vehicle. That means he doesn't make separation between Mahayana and so-called Hinayana. and does not differ from the greater or lesser vehicles. So he doesn't take neither of them, but he doesn't negate neither of them.

[70:13]

But I condense and combine the extensive scope of degradation to establish standard for appropriate conduct. That means he... uses both, but he is free from both. And he, in a sense, pick up the regulations, works for his community as a part of Chinese Buddhist community or society. I mean, some part of Indian Vinaya, doesn't work in Chinese society. Also Chinese, you know, climate of Chinese, you know, land. So they had to create something Chinese for Chinese practitioners. One of the most important and well-known points of difference between what Hyakujo or Bhajan made or his regulations and Vinaya is in Zen monasteries in China, monks did farming, and it was clearly prohibited in Indian Vinaya.

[71:44]

And there are several, you know, some other points. For example, having a supper, evening meal, is prohibited in India, but they need some food, they call it, as a medicine, so they started to eat evening meal called yakuseki. That literally means medicine stone to warm their stomach. And also, yesterday or the day before yesterday, Khandro-san asked the way monks practice meditation. In India, they meditate by themselves or in the forest. But in China, they started to practice together in one building.

[72:48]

called sodo, or monk's hall. Probably that was because, especially in northern China, in the winter, literally it's not possible to meditate outside in the winter. So they need a warm place. That's why they built a monk's hall, and they practice inside the buildings. I think that is another difference between pure standard or Shingi in Zen tradition and Indian Vinaya. So Hyakujo's point is we don't negate, they don't negate neither of them, that means Hinayana and Bahayana, but we don't cut off neither of them, but we use them. in order to create the best way of practice for themselves within their culture and climate in China.

[73:59]

So Dogen Zenji quote this statement by Bai Zhang and pick up his position toward this distinction between Mahayana and Hinayana. And Dogen said he is different, even he's different from Vajan. Vajan said it this way, but Ehe is certainly not like this. It is not the case that it is not limited to the great or small vehicles or not different from the great or small vehicles. So they are not same and yet not different. Fat is this small vehicle.

[75:04]

The affairs of the donkey are not complete. Fat is this great vehicle. The affairs of the horse have already arrived. This is a famous Zen expression, donkey and horse. The expression is before donkey leave, horse arrived. Before donkey has left, horse has arrived. Donkey and horse are similar kind of animal, living beings. But from human point of view, donkey cannot run so fast. And horse is more useful than donkey. So horse is better than donkey. But this Zen saying I want to say is from a human point of view, donkey and horse are different, but actually these two are not so different, same thing.

[76:17]

Yeah. And it's like Dogen used the same expression when he discussed about our karmic nature and Buddha nature, donkey and horse. Before donkey leaves, so donkey is still there. Horse has already arrived. So within donkey, horse is working. So Dogen also tried not to separate these greater Mahayana and Hinayana. But he said his method is different from bhajan, to combine and take only the things but it works. What he said is, not the extensive scope means the extremely great is the same as the small. And not condensed means the extremely small is the same as the great.

[77:27]

This is also a famous saying, not particularly in Zen, but in Mahayana Buddhism. It is often said like within a poppy seed, man's smell can be contained. So an extremely small thing and extremely large thing is identical. So what he's saying is there's no such distinction between Mahayana, so-called Mahayana and Hinayana. So she said, I don't combine. Hyakujo or Baizhan said, I combined those two. But Dogen said, I don't combine. But gallop over and drop away, great and small. That means great and small become one piece.

[78:29]

Already having accomplished this, how shall we go beyond? So to, you know, into one piece is not enough according to Dogen. We have to go beyond. That means how we live based on that attitude or understanding. Then finally Dogen said, after a pause, Dogen said, when healthy and energetic we do zazen without falling asleep. When hungry we eat rice and know we are fully satisfied. This means just be natural. And So this dharma discourse by Dogen can be interpreted in different ways. And Uchiyama Roshi's interpretation is his method is different from counting breaths and watching breaths.

[79:39]

And this breathing has neither long nor short. So just breathe naturally without even watching or observing it. without counting or without paying any special attention to the breath. Just breathe as naturally as we forget it. That means we don't see it or observe it or contemplate it. Just breathe. That is Uchiyama Roshi's interpretation. And that, I think, came from Sawaki Roshi's. But Hashimoto Roshi, Hashimoto Roshi was a teacher, Katagiroshi practiced with at a heiji. In Hashimoto Roshi's commentary on Fukanza Dengi, he discussed about this Dharma discourse by Dogen and said,

[80:40]

What Fath Dogen recommends is watching breath because his way is not different from Mahayana. That is one possible interpretation. And another possible interpretation is he doesn't make such a distinction so we can use any of those three. depending upon our condition at that time. If our mind is really busy, probably counting breaths might help. So you can count breaths, but when your mind calms down, then you stop. So this way of saying by Dogen is kind of, you know, vague. We can interpret in different ways. So none of those three teachings, Suzuki Roshi's counting breath, Katagi Roshi's watching breath, and Uchiyama Roshi's do nothing, is not against Dogen's saying.

[81:50]

So we have to make a choice. And because I'm a disciple of Uchiha Moroshi, I practice in this way. And to me, from the very beginning of my practice of Dazen, when I was young, when I was a beginner, I tried to count the breath. And sometimes I tried to watch my breath, but I found it's different from really just sitting. There's a separation between, you know, I'm counting breath, so there's a separation between I'm Shohaku who is sitting and breath that is to be watched or counted. So I felt this is a kind of artificial. practice. So, you know, I tried counting or watching breath several times, but I didn't continue.

[83:01]

Well, it's 10.40. Any question, please? Hmm? When we change our techniques, the cyclic part of the body, like the nostril of the knee. Tandem? Yes. Tandem is the name of part of the body that is set about a few inches below our navel. So this part. Okay, so it's physical. Yes, yes, physical, yes. Okay. Okay. One, two... breathing from home, this expression, does it mean that we keep the concentration down here? Yeah, some people say so. And even in, not Dogen, but Kaizen, he said, when our mind is busy, we can place our mind on the hand.

[84:17]

And the hand, I mean, cosmic mudra. And, you know, cosmic mudra is in front of tandem. So the same idea. Or in Tendai, the manual of meditation, it's not only tandem, but also the border between hair and forehead. And also the top of our nose. to place our attention. And this is same as watching breath, because breath is, the air is coming and going around here. So this one, this point, and this point, and this point is phrases some teachers, teach these good points to praise our mind.

[85:20]

But I think Dogen didn't say such a thing. As a regulating or harmonizing mind, what he says Only thing he said in Fukazazengi is, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking beyond thinking? That is his teaching about regulating or harmonizing our mind. And in this book Uchida Moroshi kind of interprets or understands this, you know, thinking, not thinking, beyond thinking in terms of letting go of thought or opening the hand of thought. When we open the hand of thought, thought is there but we don't grasp. That is thinking, not thinking, and thinking and not thinking are taking place within, beyond thinking. That is basic understanding of Dogen Zen Zazen by Uchiyama Roshi.

[86:27]

And my or our practice is based on that understanding. Okay? Please. Oh, you have something to say? You just move your hand? Anyone, please? They're funny about this question, but they don't know how you can answer it. But there's a problem that I've had about it. Because I've had it for a long time. It seems to me that what I first learned was, wow, lip wrap. And there was an idea about Shikintagla, like, it's being, you know, like, this wonderful state that was almost impossible to accomplish, or to, I mean, accomplish is the correct word. And so, like, sitting Shikintagla was being, like, But as soon as they noticed that it would go away, so. I think that there's some serious confusion in there. But maybe you can say something that will help me straighten it out.

[87:28]

Confusion? Yeah. That is a confusion. To consider Skandharada is some ideal condition or stage of our mind, and yet we cannot reach there. Is that what Katagiroshi said, or your misunderstanding? Not misunderstanding, I'm sorry, your interpretation. My misunderstanding. I'm trying to figure out whether I invented this by myself, or whether there were actually many people who were seeing it this way. I've heard people say that. Okay. Okay. I assume Hiroshi is teaching that, you know, even by looking through the list, he thought Shikintonsa was too hard for most people to be able to do.

[88:34]

But that's not what he showed us. I think so. Yes, he was, Maezumi Hiroshi was. I think that came from Harada Sogakuro's teaching. Harada Sogaku Roshi was the original person. Harada Sogaku was the teacher of Maezumi Hakun. So he was the original person, original Soto Zen master who went to Rinzai and complete koan practice and bring back koan practice in Soto Zen monastery named Hoshinji. And so Harada Sogaku Roshi was the original person of this Harada-Yasutani line, and Sambho-kyodan is part of it, and Maezumi Roshi's Rinje is also another part of it. And in his book, Harada Roshi's book, he said something like, Dogen Zenji's practice, Shikantaza, is the highest practice.

[89:39]

And to teach sikantada to the beginners is like to teach university student study to the kindergarten kid. That was Harada Roshi's saying. So first, his method is first we have to practice with koans, especially something like a moo or a sound of one hand. and really able to concentrate and see emptiness through kensho experience. Then after that, in Ginzai, after kensho experience, they could study Buddhist texts. Before that, studying Buddhist texts is prohibited. someone who practiced at the Japanese Rinzai Monastery said, only books they were allowed to read was comics, comic books.

[90:48]

They were never allowed to study Buddhism until they attained so-called Kensho experience. Because, you know, all those knowledge before that kind of experience is just confusion. So after going through what is called the first barrier, then they started to teach different aspects of Buddhist study, Buddhist teachings. In order to do so, they had to go through many hundreds of koans, and in order to pass the one koan, they have to study a certain part of Buddhist teachings. So the koan system is method that allows monks or practitioners to study and practice and study based on that enlightenment experience and includes all those teachings.

[92:00]

And what Harada Rosi said is, after all those koans practice is completed, the person can first practice Shikambrada. That was his teaching. So Shikantaza is really difficult practice. Only people who had already enlightened could practice in that way. That is Harada Roshi's interpretation. But when we study Dogen, Dogen never said such a thing. So that idea, you know, Shikantada is the highest practice, or highest stage of Zen practice, is from Harada Sogakuroshi's teaching. You know, Dogen, he said, from the very beginning, we have to study just it, as he said in Fukanzazengi.

[93:06]

So that is a kind of difference. Okay? What is Kinshasa? I don't know. I never had such an experience. I really don't know. The impression that I come away with Akari Hiroshi's, and also Suzuki Hiroshi's, but I don't know if Suzuki Hiroshi did terribly, but the impression I have was that they would try anything initially. They would just, it was like, I don't know if it was spelled out like what Hiroshi said, but it was like, They still have the feeling, I think, it's true that Americans were so far, it was so hard that in both cases, but I remember Gary did start one way.

[94:22]

He would say, and he just said, but then after maybe three months or a certain amount of time, he would say, well, let's count, right? And then it would have to be elaborated or people would ask him questions, and at least in my experience, the feeling I had with both of them was that they did things as an expedient. The temporary would do best, but they didn't usually tell us the temporary. You know, you take out the breath, breathing, and then at some point, So he taught in different ways, depending upon the person or the condition. So he didn't... They didn't want people to go away.

[95:40]

They especially didn't want to lose people. So, I mean, I think they made a lot of adjustments. That is what it means. Some people said Katagiroshi gave candies. Maybe. Maybe. both cases it would change. You know, I said, look at Roshi and her. Instead, you know, I mean, when I was there, I can't say the first verse. But, you know, no study. No study. Just jobs and jobs. And this one, I can't, I don't check. Did he teach you counting breaths from that beginning? No, I don't remember that. But I was not very close. I was in the bay. I had to drive over there. But But then after a year or so, he started talking about studying that, and I guess we didn't know. Where did that come from? But he didn't make connection historically.

[96:43]

I see. He just said it. So people just... Confused. Confused. Because Hiroshi was something like that, except... So, you know, basically they could do this, don't do that, but they don't say why or how. Yeah, you know, at the time of Suzuki Roshi or Katagi Roshi, even they want their student to study, there's no text to study. That too, yeah. Right. and everything you talk about would be DT, you know. But then this thing with counting, and then it was, then at some point, I can't make a connection, but then somebody would ask me, they'd say, well, follow your breath. What about counting? Well, I don't count. Follow your breath. Then, you know, some kid would go by, and somebody would bring up a question, and they'd say, well, just watch it.

[97:44]

Do they follow? No, no, don't follow too closely. You do like that. Yes, they could, and still be true to the teaching, but it was, you know, we, you know, this is a slight example, you know, in the beginning I was, in the evening that then, we checked out to church. During that then? No, after that then. After that then. When I got there, it was 2.90. Well, when I was there, Not a few times, many times. There would be two people, the Roshi and the Doa. Only two. And one of them were you. Well, never mind. And then for years, we didn't do the Heart Sutra, and I guess we never went back.

[98:47]

But it started out that way. But then at some point... Can we do this? And he said, it's not necessary. I meant no. So, you know, it was like this all the time. I see. So it's very helpful. You know, your historical connection is very helpful. But a nice 20, 30 years ago, it wasn't there. Yeah. We are still in the very beginning of the history of American Zen. No, still, we are still in the beginning. I would say even in the prehistoric age now, we are in a time of preparation. Even the Ehe Korok was not available, so there's no way to check what Dogen said about this. Okay, it's almost eleven.

[99:51]

Thank you very much for your practice.

[99:54]

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