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I finish talking until the third paragraph of page 42. So, I start from the last paragraph of that page. This is the section Uchiyama Roshi explains. how to explain or describe how to practice Zazen. And so far he described how to cross our legs, you know, full lotus position, or half lotus position, or Burmese, or quarter lotus position, or Burmese, or sitting in Seiza, or sitting on a chair. And now he started to talk about


posture of the upper part of our body. Well, yesterday afternoon, Annie asked about the diagrams in this book, the version of this book. As I said, this is not the same one with the original in Japanese, so I'll show you. The diagram Uchamonoshi made for his Japanese version is only zabuton and zafu. And full lotus and half lotus. That's it. So this is made in America. And the cosmic mudra. That's all. And next one, kind of interesting, is also different.


In page 54, you know, the diagram of, in our zazen, if we think, start to think, you know, the image grows and grows. And when we sleep, we dream. This is also a little bit different from what Uchamaru wrote in Japanese. So those diagrams are made for this version. So it's a little different, but we think it's better. Anyway, The last paragraph, page 42. So, this is after we put our legs in full lotus or half lotus or any way.


Then, straighten your back with your buttocks naturally. but firmly pushing outward, and your pelvis slightly tipped forward. So when we sit, cross our legs, we make our upper part of our body straight up. To do so, in order to make a kind of a natural S-curve of the spine, what I do is first I lean my upper part of my body to the front, and try not to move the lower back, but return to the upright posture, like this. Then the spine has a natural S-curve, like this. That is what he meant here. But if we don't have, I mean, we should not have any tension on the muscle,


That is important. The posture should be straight, but no muscle has any tension. If we have some tension, we will have pain there. So it should be straight, and yet relaxed. That is kind of a difficult point. Your neck straight. So when we sit, our neck should be always straight. When we receive the Zen instruction in Japan, We are taught that your neck should touch the collar of your kimono. So it's not like this. If we bend our neck like this, there's a space between your collar and neck. So the neck is right. There's no space between the collar and neck. So it's like this. So, neck should be straight and pull your chin like this.


Keep your neck straight and pull in your chin. Close your mouth and put your tongue firmly against the upper palate. So, we put our tongue on the upper roof of the mouth. So we don't breathe through our mouth during zazen. We do breathing through our nose. And we try not to keep any air in our mouth. And project the top of your head as if it were going to pierce the ceiling. So, when we make our neck straight and pull our chin, it seems like we pierce the ceiling with the top of our head, like this.


And it said the center of our head should be the center of the Zafu. So it should be really straight. Relax your shoulders. Rest your hands at the crease of your torso and thighs. with your right hand palm up in your lap, and your left hand in the palm of the right. We put hand, you know, overlap the finger like this. and make an oval with our thumb.


Like this. And the tip of our thumb is about the height of the navel. Your thumb should touch lightly just above your palms. This is called the Cosmic Mudra, or Hokkai-jo-in. Keeping your eyes open. So when we sit, we sit keeping our eyes open. We don't close our eyes. So, you know, we make our neck really straight and pull our chin and keep our eyes open. And yet we lower the, what we call, the line of eyesight down like this. So our eyesight goes about three feet in front of our body.


So naturally, our eyes are not wide open, but half closed, half open. And the important point is we don't focus on anything. We just keep our eyes open without focusing on anything. When we sit in front of this kind of wall, it's okay, but when we sit in front of the wooden wall, the wooden wall has different patterns. And I don't know when, where, but then I sat in certain temple in front of my eyes. I sat there, what do you call that? Nod, yes. And it's really difficult to ignore this thing. naturally I focus on this thing and it's really a problem.


You know, this thing becomes bigger and ours moves. So it's not right. So it's better to move even a little bit. Try not to leave that thing in front of our eyes. So it's important. And also if we focus on one thing for such a long time, our eyes become strange and we may have pain on the muscles. So it's important to sit in front of the walls without any pattern. or if there is some pattern, it's become a kind of a... it's like a... I don't... I forget the name of the test, you know, psychological test. And we put the, you know, ink. Yeah, it becomes 13, you know, things.


And it becomes like a daydreaming. So, it's not good. It's better to have a wall without any patterns. So, keep your eyes open. Look at the wall. I don't think this word, look at, is a good word. Because we don't look at. We just keep our eyes open. and drop your line of vision slightly. Once you have taken the Zazen position, upright position, open your mouth and exhale deeply. This will help change your whole frame of mind in order to work out the stiffness


in your joints and muscles. Slowly swing two or three times to the left and right, finally settling in an unmoving upright posture. Once you are still, breathe quietly through your nose. The important thing here is to breathe naturally from the tanden, an area in your belly a little below the navel. Allow long breaths to be long and short breaths to be short, rather than trying to control each one. Do not force your breathing or make noise by breathing heavily. The Zazen posture is a marvelous posture because it is the best one for throwing out for petty human thought.


This last sentence, I think, is the introduction to the next paragraph. Actually, in the Japanese, this is the beginning of the next paragraph. Anyway, so this is about Zazen. So, when we make our posture upright, We open our mouth and exhale deeply. That means we exhale as if all the air inside our body goes out. So, exhale slowly as if no air is left within your body. So, exhaling, you know, without making noise, thoroughly. And when we finish exhaling, we close our mouth and inhale through


our nose. This means that all the air inside goes out and new fresh air comes in through the nose. So that's why Uchamara says we feel refreshed. And we can repeat this three or four times. So, in the beginning we need to have some exercise. But after a while you can do this very naturally without thinking about it. So... After doing this deep breath, before sitting still, we sway our body, so now the mouth is already closed.


And we sway our body right to left, either is okay. And in that case, usually, we or I put our hands palm up on the knee, like this. And move like this. First, the movement is large. So as large as I move until I feel a little pain on this side, this part. And the opposite side. Then make the movement little by little, small. But each time I try to bend, you know, sway as far as I have some pain here. In Chinese, in some Dazen instructions, this is called Amma. Amma is the same word with massage. So this is for relax our muscle.


And finally we move only our neck like this until we have some little pain on this side and this side. And then it becomes little by little and finally it stops. And this is the starting point of Zazen. Would you repeat the reason? going other than the natural way? What was the reason for it? I don't know. I never done that. And I never actually taught by actual person. I never met actual person who practice in that way. But I read in some... in books. And some people in Rinzai tradition, they do in that way.


But I never done it, and I don't understand why. Did you hear the explanation why? Yeah. What I heard was the way the teacher said it was to sort of speed up samadhi. Speed up samadhi. He didn't use those words, but he said, you know, you settle down, da-da-da-da-da. And then he said if you put a little, what do you call, pressure, not pressure, but energy, below the tendon, it's easier to sink down. And he said one way to do that is resist the ebony going out, and then resist it coming in. But he didn't say to do it the whole period. He said it was a way to Oh, only the beginning.


Yeah. Aha. A way to settle down, to help get the energy in the tendon. And he, not exactly his words, but the idea was naturally one's abdomen wants to go out, like he's describing. And he said if you resist that a little bit, naturally your attention's down there again. And then, the same with the exhalation, you resist a little bit, and he claimed, quote, that... I see. But I don't remember him saying that the whole period. That makes sense. Now I'm reminded of a detail that I heard, which is not the same thing that Tommy heard, but it was to push your diaphragm downward. And... By breathing opposite way? Well, it was not clear.


It came from two different books. I can clear it up for you. Good! Please. We're taught a technique called Susukan. Although I see that you all use the same phrase, but Susukan... You mean Susokukan? Counting breath? No, we're not counting the breath. You're holding tension in your diaphragm, but we are breathing normally. I don't have to breathe in, but I just breathe out. Yeah, when I take an in-breath, the diaphragm goes out. But as you go to breathe out through your nose, you make it, like, taut with your diaphragm, and it still goes in, but also you have your breath hitting the back of the top It makes an audible noise and sometimes I accidentally do it without even thinking about it. So is that way of breathing taught in that tradition?


It's taught. It's not taught to everybody. So it's not common. Yeah, but it's taught, and what it's for isn't so much, well, I mean, Samadhi might end up being a reflection of it, but it's taught more like, I guess you'd call it shamatha, but it really, you can get really concentrated. Focus. Super focused. Doing that. Yeah, without consciously doing it, at least I cannot do it, that kind of breathing. So it must be really focused, concentrated on breathing, I think, if we practice in that way. Yeah, you are totally focused on just breathing, and nothing but breathing, until you forget breathing. So, when you forget, you stop doing that way?


You breathe normally? Or, when you get used to it, you can breathe in that way normally, naturally, without thinking? Without intention? Yes. Not that... I mean, I think anybody that did do it, you would notice, because you'll hear an audible sound, actually. You know, but yeah, you can do it, but it really makes it concentrated until it just becomes a rhythmic thing without thinking about it. You know, but of course usually people have koans or something like that. A lot of times the focus also would be on moo with the breath, out breath. You know, not out loud in your, the thought moo. or whatever may go on. I see. Anyway... But we don't do that here.


Yeah, that's different from our practice. General Shih always said, we should breathe as naturally as possible, as if, you know, the best breathing is we forget breathing. And just air comes in and goes out naturally, as a natural function of our five skandhas. It has nothing to do with how we breathe. And that came from Dogen's teaching about breathing in Zazen. And Uchiyamuroshi quotes in his note in this book. Dogen's teaching is from Eihei Koroku. And it is in the end note in this book. Page 176. In this version, the note is underneath.


I don't know which is more convenient. But this Dharma Discourse from Ehe-Korok is only teaching about breathing by Dogen. So, we follow this teaching. And, of course, there are different interpretations possible. I came to this country in 1993. I met someone who practiced with Suzuki Roshi, and later Katagiri Roshi, and finally with me. The person said, Suzuki Roshi taught counting breath, Katagiri Roshi taught watching breath, and I taught do nothing.


So the person is really confused. And all those three came from this teaching of Dogen, how to interpret this Dogen's teaching. So, I'd like to introduce, you know, what Dogen said about breathing in the Zen from In Ehe Korok. And there is a translation in this book, but I'd like to introduce my or our translation from In Ehe Korok. The meaning is not different. There is no misinterpretation, but just to make a comparison. I mean, both are my translations. Both are a little bit different, but not so different. Volume 5. Volume 5, Dharma Discourse 390.


So, in this book, page 348. And the title we made, we mean, Taigen, Dan Layton and me, made on this Dharma Discourse is, How to Breathe in the Zen. It's quite a long Dharma Discourse, but let me read, first read the entire Discourse. It's about two pages, and I talk Sentence by sentence. How to Breathe in the Zen.


390 Dharma Hall Discourse. In the Zen of Patch-Robed Monks, first you should sit correctly with upright posture. then regulate your breath and settle your mind. In the lesser vikru, originally, there were two gateways, which were counting breaths and contemplating impurity. In the lesser vikru, people used counting to regulate their breath. However, the Buddha ancestors' engaging of the way always differed from the lesser viku. A Buddha ancestor said, even if you allow the mind of a leprous wild fox, never practice the self-regulation of the two vikus.


The two vehicles refer to such as the school of the four-part Vinaya and the Abhidharma Kosha school, which have spread in the world these days. In the Mahayana, there is also a method for regulating breath, which is knowing that one breath is long. Another breath is short. The breath reaches the tan-den and comes up from the tan-den. Although exhale and inhale differ, both of them occur depending on the tan-den. Impermanence is easy to clarify. and regulating the mind is easy to accomplish.


My late teacher, Tien-Tung Rujin, said, Breath enters and reaches the Tandem, and yet there is no place from which it comes. Therefore, it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanben, and yet there is nowhere it goes. Therefore, it is neither short nor long. My late teacher said it like that. Suppose someone were to ask Eihei, Master, how do you regulate your breath? I would simply say to him, although it is not the Great Vehicle, it differs from the Lesser Vehicle.


Although it is not the Lesser Vehicle, it differs from the Great Vehicle. Suppose that person inquired again. Ultimately, that is it. I would say to him, exhale and inhale are neither long nor short. Someone asked by John, the Yogacara-Bhumi Shastra and the Jewel Necklace Sutra contain the Mahayana precepts. Why don't you practice according to them?" Baizhang said, what I take as essential is not limited to the greater or lesser vehicles, and does not differ from the greater or lesser vehicles.


I condense and combine the extensive scope of regulations to establish standards for appropriate conduct. Baizhang said it this way, but Eihei is certainly not like this. It is not the case that it is not limited to the great or small vehicles. or not different from the great or small vehicles. What is this small vehicle? The affairs of the donkey are not complete. What is this great vehicle? The affairs of the horse have already arrived. Not the extensive scope means


The extremely great is the same as the small. Not condensed means the extremely small is the same as the great. I do not combine, but gallop over and drop away, great and small. Already having accomplished this, How shall we go beyond? After a pause, Dogen said, When healthy and energetic, we do Zazen without falling asleep. When hungry, we eat rice and know we are fully satisfied. That's it. That's it. So this is a teaching about breathing. You know, it's kind of very interesting way of saying, and we can interpret in different ways.


So Dogen's way of expressing his idea is kind of very clear, and yet not so clear. We can interpret from different ways. Anyway. I talk sentence by sentence. So, this is about breathing in Zazen. And he said, this breathing in Zazen is not simply breathing, but this is Cho, about Cho Soku within Zazen. How to... I think we use this word, the word regulate, regulate breath. But I'm not sure if this regulating is the right word or not. As I said, another possible meaning is harmonize, put it in harmony or put it in order.


Anyway, Dogen started to talk. as follows. In the zazen of patch-robed monks, patch-robed means, patched-robed means this okesa. This is a, you know, patched robe. Monks means monks who put on okesa. First, you should sit correctly with upright posture, as Uchamuroshi described until the previous paragraph. Then regulate or harmonize your breath. And settle your mind. To settle your mind is another thing about this mind. And in this case, instead of this CHO, he used CHI. And we translate this CHI as to settle down.


Calm down. So, posture, breathing, and regulating or harmonizing mind are the three important points. And here Dogen talks about how we regulate or harmonize our breath. In the Lesser Vehicle, the Lesser Vehicle is a translation of Hinayana. Hina is small, and Hina in Japanese is sho and jo. Sho is small. Jo is vehicle. and Mahāyāna is called Daijō. Of course, these two are not the terms used in the Buddhist groups besides Mahāyāna people.


So, there is no such group of Buddhists who called themselves Hinayana. This is a word used only by Mahayana Buddhists. So, to kind of criticize the traditional Buddhism before Mahayana. So, today we don't use this word Hinayana or Shojo to, you know, refer to any other Buddhist traditions outside Mahayana. So, we should not use this word, Hinayana, to refer to some group of people, because there are no such people who consider themselves Hinayana. Mahayana is like a Protestant. You know, criticize the traditions or early Buddhism before Mahayana in order to make a distinction that we are not the same with those people and they wanted to say we are better than those people.


You know, they have to use these words. So, today, we don't use Hinayana at all. But, I think, until when I was a university student, in Japanese Buddhism, this word is used. And they said, so-called Buddhism in Southeast Asian countries are called Shojo or Hinayana. But today, no one call, use such a word. They call, you know, that Buddhism in Asian countries such as Thailand, Burma, as a Taylor Brother. That was a name they used for, to call themselves. So, we never use this Hinayana anymore. But the problem is when we translate the text written by Mahāyāna people, and this word is used in that text, how we translate this word?


One time, when we worked together, Tom Wright tried to translate Shōjo as Theravāda. That caused another problem. You know, in Dogen's writing, Dogen used this word, Hinayana, and if we translate this as Theravada, in order to avoid this word Hinayana, then this means Dogen Zenji criticized Theravada Buddhism. But Dogen Zenji never knew what Theravada Buddhism was. He only understood so-called Hinayana Buddhism, criticized by the Mahayana. So this word is only used within Mahayana context. So if we translate this word as Theravada, that is a problem. For example, if we read this, you know, in Theravada Buddhism, you know, they practice, you know, counting breath.


And he said, we should never practice in that way. Then Dogen was against Theravada tradition. But Dogen had nothing to do with, you know, the Theravada tradition today, you know, practiced in Buddhist countries in Asia and in this country. So, in order to avoid that second problem, we... I mean, when I make my translation, I use this word, Hinayana, or in this translation we use lesser vikru, or smaller vikru, in order not to make that confusion. Dogen was talking about certain approach to practice, to Buddhist practice, at the time of Mahayana, and criticized by Mahayana people.


We should use this word, shojo or hinayana, only in that way. So, we must be careful about the usage of this word. So, anyway, in this translation, we use lesser vehicle. In the lesser vehicle, originally, there were two gateways, which were counting breath. and contemplating impurity. Counting breath is a method of meditation practice mentioned in the early Buddhism. And contemplating impurity is another method of meditation practice.


Sometime, you know, Buddhist monks went to the forest that is used as a graveyard. It's said, you know, in India, at some places, people just leave the dead body in the forest. And so monks went to the forest, the graveyard, and sit actually facing the dead body and observe the process of decaying of the physical body in order to see, you know, this body cannot be the object of attachment. That is how, you know, that is a practice to become released from attachment to our own body. But it seems later that that practice is too kind of extreme.


So, in some early Buddhist sutras, it's not really watching. the dead body, but contemplate or visualize the process of that decay. So it became a method of contemplation. That is one approach of meditation practice in early Buddhism. So, as a method of harmonizing breath, this counting breath is used. And it's still used very commonly. In the lesser vehicle, people used counting to regulate their breath. So they count breath from one to ten.


and repeat. However, the Buddha ancestors' engaging of the way always differed from the lesser vikus. So, Dogen says, our practice in Zen is... that is what Buddha ancestors means. Zen practitioners, Zen masters' way is different from this method. Branch Heart Man once said, when he started to practice zazen with Suzuki Roshi, she was taught to practice counting breath. And after a while, she said, during dokusan, she said, now I can count breath. Easily read ten and repeat, you know, anything.


And she asked, what next? You should never say, I'm done. Anyway, so to count breath and completely can do it, is not the goal or purpose of this practice. So if counting breath is the practice, keep counting. So this is not, at least in Zen, this is not a stage-by-stage practice, step-by-step practice. Anyway, so counting breaths is one of the ways to regulate or harmonize our breath. But Dogen said it's different from our ways. Our Buddha ancestors said, Even if you allow the mind of a leprous wild fox, never practice the self-regulation of the two vehicles."


The reason why I don't want to translate this word as regulate is this word. Dogen used the same kanji here. Not Dogen, but this is a saying by Nagarjuna. from Daichi Doron, or the Commentary on the Mahaprajna Paramita Sutra. And the word Nagarjuna used is jicho. Jicho. Ji is self, regulating. So, if we practice, sit in this upright posture, and try to regulate ourselves, how to breathe, how our mind works, that is self-control or self-regulation. And, not only Dogen, but Nagarjuna criticized that kind of


practice, you know, the person that is like a... the person sitting or practicing is like an operator of the car. And try to control the movement of the car. And we control the bodily posture, breathe, and mind. If with image our Zazen is like that, then we lose the sight of Mahayana practice. As I often say in the Heart Sutra, in the very beginning, the first sentence of the Heart Sutra, if we think there is a person whose name was Avalokiteshvara, sitting in Zazen, and seeing the five skandhas, And, with the aid of the Prajna Paramita, this person could see those five skandhas are empty.


Actually, that is what is said in the first sentence of the Avalokiteshvara. But, if we understand what is written in the Heart Sutra, and what we do in our Zazen in this way, we completely lost the point. That means, you know, if we think there are five skandhas outside of Avalokiteshvara as an object, that is a mistake. You know, Avalokiteshvara is nothing other than five skandhas. So five skandhas are not the five skandhas outside of an object. But five skandhas is these five skandhas. Not something outside of the person. And see these five skandhas are empty.


That means Avalokiteśvara himself is empty. And wisdom that allows us to see the emptiness is these five skandhas itself. So there is no such thing as the person who is sitting, and the object of that meditation, and the reality that is the emptiness of these beings. And with the help or device of Prajnaparamita, You know, this person sees not only the sure face, but also the reality of these beings. If we understand in this way, what is written in the Heart Sutra, although it is written in this way, there is no other way to write using words. But, that is not really true. And if we think in our Zazen, you know, this person can control this body and mind like a driver of a car or an operator of a machine, then it's really a mistake.


It's really against the reality of emptiness. Emptiness means there is no such separation between self and object. That is the meaning of self-control. So, the two vehicles, two vehicles mean Shravaka and Pratyekabuddha. Those two vehicles are considered to be the small vehicle, or Hinayana. The two vehicles refer to such as the school of the four-part Vinaya. Four-part Vinaya in Japanese is Shibun Ritsu. Ritsu is Vinaya and Shibun literally means four parts.


But this is one of the Vinayas translated from Sanskrit to Chinese. There are three or four Vinayas that were translated, and this is one of them. And one of the Chinese Buddhist masters, whose name was Do Sen, He was a contemporary of Genjo. Genjo was a person... What is Genjo in Chinese? I forget. But Genjo was a person who went to India by himself. Chuan Chuan. He was a great translator. And also founder of Hosso or Chinese Yogacara School. This person, Dōsen, helped Chuan Chuan's translation work. So he lived in the 7th century.


And he studied this Vinaya. And he founded his own school named Shibun Ritsushū. school of Shibun Ritsu Vinaya. This is the Vinaya school where people really studied Vinaya, focus on studying Vinaya and trying to keep the Vinaya. And this school was transmitted from China to Japan by the famous Chinese master, what is his name, Ao Ganzi, in the 8th century, I think. 8th century, until this Chinese master Ganjin came in Japan.


Buddhism was already there in Japan for 300 years, about 300 years. But Japanese, in order to receive the Vinaya and to become an official Buddhist monk, to do the, you know, ordination ceremony, they, in the tradition, they need at least ten fully ordained monks, masters, three preceptors, and seven witnesses. And until Ganjin came, Japanese didn't have such, you know, masters. So, there was no official ordination done. But this person, Ganjin, who was already very well-known teacher in China came to Japan with many of his disciples.


And after that, in Japanese Buddhism, this receiving of Vinaya priesthood became possible. So, this school, Vinaya school, existed in Japan at the time of Dogen for about 400 years. But Vinaya school or precept or practice of Vinaya never became so popular in Japan because of Maybe I already talked many times why Japanese people didn't like Vinaya. During the precept retreat I talked. Maybe this year, maybe I didn't.


But anyway, next year. I don't have enough time. I need to finish this course today. Anyway, so Vinaya school was one of the so-called Hinayana schools in Japan, existing in Japan at the time of Dogen. And another one is Abhidharmakosha school. Abhidharmakosha is written by Vasubandhu. Vasubandhu, of course, was one of the most important Yogacara school masters, philosophers. But Vasubandhu wrote this text before he became Mahayana Buddhist. So, this Abhidharma Kosha is in China and Japan, is a very fundamental text to study Abhidharma teachings. And this was also introduced to Japan around the 6th or 7th century.


which have spread in the world these days. In the Mahayana, there is also a method for regulating breath, Chosoku, which is known that one breath is long, another breath is short. This means to watch the breath and to see long breath as long, short breath as short. This method is mentioned in the Mahaprajna Paramita Sutra. It's not the Heart Sutra, but the bigger, larger one, that has 600 volumes. But part of it, it is said, we, the bodhisattva, when sitting, watch the breath and see long breath as long, short breath as short. The breath reaches the tan-den, tan-den is the lower part of our abdomen, and comes up from the tan-den.


So we breathe deeply as if air goes into tan-den here, a little bit below the navel. Although exhale and inhale differ, Both of them occur depending on the tan-den. So tan-den is the basis of this breathing. And also tan-den is considered to be the center of the gravity when we sit. Impermanence is easy to clarify. And regulating the mind is easy to accomplish. So this deep Breath from abdomen is helpful to calm down and seeing the impermanence. That means our mind doesn't go here and there, but stays here and sees things are changing.


So, this counting, watching breath is a kind of a method to help our mind calm down. So, this is Mahayana method of regulating or harmonizing our breath. And, next, he introduced his teacher, Tien-Tung Ru-Jin, said, Breath enters and reaches the Tan Ben, same as it is said in the Prajnaparamita Sutra. And yet, the master always says, and yet. And yet, there is no place from which it comes. So air is just circulating this entire world, coming and going. So we cannot tell where this air comes in, comes into our body.


Therefore it is neither long nor short. So we cannot consider if this breath is long or short. And actually, you know, we can breathe only one breath at a time. So we cannot compare this breath with longer or shorter. Unless we think and observe this present current breath and compare this breath with the breath in the past. You know, if we do such a thing, you know, we don't really focus on breathing. So there's no way to see one breath to be long or short. Long or short is really kind of a relative kind of a concept. How can we say one breath is long or short?


Please. I'm sorry. I once read someone who had a way that wasn't about comparing. I could share it or I could not share it. Please. He said that, well, if you breathe and your breath goes into your lungs, and then it goes down into your abdomen, but if you breathe even more deeply, then it goes, you find your lungs expand a little more. And he said, only then should you call it a long breath. All the others are short breaths. Okay. Again, that is a comparison. At the time when we are sitting and breathing, can we observe that the air goes and lungs fully expand? If we are observing that thing, there is a separation between the person observing and the breath and the lens.


Well, yes, there is a separation. Usually that is called a contemplation. or watching. But the point Fat Dogen wants to say is, if there is such a separation between observer and the things happening, then that is not samadhi. So, Dogen's point is kind of, how can I say, unique. But, I mean, probably many Buddhist practitioners don't agree with what he is saying. And, this is not Dogen, but his teacher, Tendo Nyojo, Therefore, it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanden when we exhale. Air comes from tanden.


And yet, there is nowhere it goes. Therefore, it is neither short nor long. So there is no such comparison and observation possible. Tenton Rujin said. And my late teacher said it like that. Suppose someone were to ask Eihei, Eihei means Dogen himself, Master, how do you regulate your breath? How do you harmonize or regulate your breath? And Dogen said, I would simply say to him, Although it is not the Great Vehicle, so he said his practice is not Great Vehicle or Mahayana. It is different from the Lesser Vehicle. So he is saying his practice is neither Mahayana nor Hinayana.


Although it is not the Lesser Vehicle, it differs from the Great Vehicle. So, neither Mahayana nor Hinayana. Suppose that person inquired again, ultimately what is it? I would say to him, exhale and inhale are neither long nor short. So he, Dogen, agreed with his teacher, neither long nor short. And he said, this is not Mahayana, and this is not Hinayana. So there are, you know, and the next part, the final part is also important, to how we can interpret Fat Dogen's saying. Someone, asked Baizhang, Baizhang is Hyaku-jo in Japanese, who was the person who traditionally, this person Hyaku-jo was considered to be the first Zen master who compiled Shingi.


Shingi is a pure regulation or pure standards for Zen monasteries. So, this person, Hyakujo, or Vaijyan, established Zen regulations. That is different from Vinaya regulations or precepts, and also Mahayana precepts. That is the point of this question. The Yogacara Bhumi Sutra I mean Shastra and the Jewel Necklace Sutra contain the Mahayana precept. You know, both this Yogacara Bhoomi Sutra is made in India, in the Yogacara school. And this Shastra is the first text that mentions the threefold pure precept.


And the Jewel Necklace Sutra is considered to be made in China, but in this sutra also the threefold pure precept is mentioned. So, you know, Mahayana precept is there. But Hyakujo, or Bajan, established so-called Zen regulations. Why don't you practice according to them? That means, why don't you, why did you make, you know, regulations only for, works only for Zen community? Then, Bhajan said, What I take as essential is not limited to the greater or lesser vehicle. That means he doesn't make separation between Mahayana and so-called Hinayana, and does not differ from the greater or lesser vehicles, so he doesn't take


neither of them, but he doesn't negate neither of them. But he... I condense and combine the extensive scope of regulation to establish standards for appropriate conduct. That means he uses both, but he is free from both. and he, in a sense, picks up the regulations, works for his community as a part of Chinese Buddhist community or society. I mean, some part of Indian Vinaya doesn't work in Chinese society. Also, Chinese, you know, climate of Chinese, you know, land. So, they had to create something Chinese for Chinese practitioners.


and one of the most important and well-known points of difference between what Hyakujo or Baizhang made, or his regulation and vinaya is, in Zen monasteries in China, monks did farming. And it was clearly prohibited in Indian Vinaya. And there are several, you know, some other points. For example, having supper, evening meal, is prohibited in India. But they need some food they call as a medicine. So they started to eat evening meal called Yakuseki.


That means, that literally means medicine stone to warm their stomach. And also, you know, yesterday or the day before yesterday, Kanda-san asked, you know, the way monks practice meditation. In India they make meditation by themselves. or in the forest. But in China, they started to practice together in one building called Sodo or Monk's Hall. Probably that was because, especially, you know, in northern China, in the winter, it's not, literally, it's not possible to meditate outside in the winter. So they need one place. That's why they built a monk's hall and they practice inside the buildings.


I think that is another difference between pure standard or shingri in Zen tradition. and Indian Vinaya. So, Hyakujo's point is we don't negate, they don't negate neither of them, that means Hinayana and Mahayana, but we don't call up neither of them, but we use them in order to create the best way of practice for themselves. within their culture and climate in China. So Dogen Zenji quotes this statement by Vajrayana and picks up his position towards this distinction between Mahayana and Hinayana. And Dogen said he is different from Vajra.


Vajra said it this way, but Eihei is certainly not like this. It is not the case that it is not limited to the great or small vehicles. or are not different from the great or small vehicles. So they are not same and yet not different. What is this small vehicle? The affairs of the donkey are not complete. What is this great vehicle? The affairs of the horse have already arrived. This is a famous Then, expressions, donkey and horse. The expression is, before donkey leave, horse arrived. Before donkey has left, horse has arrived.


Donkey and horse are similar kind of animals, living beings. But, from human point of view, You know, donkey cannot run so fast. And horse is more useful than donkey. So, horse is better than donkey. But, this Zen saying, I want to say, is from a human point of view, donkey and horse are different. But, actually, these two are not so different. Same thing. Yeah, and it's like Dogen used the same expression when he discussed about our karmic nature and good nature. Donkey and horse. Before donkey leaves, so donkey is still there. Horse has already arrived. So, within donkey, horse is working.


So, Dogen also tried not to separate these greater Mahayana and Hinayana. But he said his method is different from Bhajan, to combine and take only the things part it works. What he said is, not the extensive scope means the extremely great is the same as the small. And not condensed means the extremely small is the same as the great. This is also a famous saying, not particularly in Zen, but in Mahayana Buddhism. It is often said, like, within a poppy seed, mountain smell, can be contained.


So, extremely small thing and extremely large thing is identical. So, what he is saying is there is no such distinction between Mahayana, so-called Mahayana, and Hinayana. So, he said, she said, I don't combine. Hyakujo or Baizhang said, I combined those two. But Dogen said, I don't combine. But, gallop over and drop away, great and small. That means great and small become one piece. Already having accomplished this, How shall we go beyond? So, you know, these two into one piece is not enough according to Dogen.


We have to go beyond. That means how we live based on that attitude or understanding. Then, finally, Dogen said, after a pause, Dogen said, When healthy and energetic, we do zazen without falling asleep. When hungry, we eat rice and know we are free satisfied. This means just being natural. And, so, you know, this Dharma discourse by Dogen can be interpreted in different ways. And Uchiyama Roshi's interpretation is his method is different from counting breath and watching breath. And this breathing has neither long nor short. So just breathe naturally without even watching or observing it.


You know, without counting or without paying any a special attention to the breath. Just breathe as naturally as we forget it. That means we don't see it or observe it or contemplate it. Just breathe. That is Uchiyama Roshi's interpretation. And that, I think, came from Sawaki Roshi's. But Hashimoto Roshi Hashimoto Roshi was a teacher Katagi Roshi practiced with at Eheiji. In Hashimoto Roshi's commentary on Fukanza Zengi, he discussed about this Dharma discourse by Dogen and said, what Dogen recommends is watching breath, because his way is not different from Mahayana. That is one possible interpretation.


And another possible interpretation is, he doesn't make such distinction, so we can use any of those three, depending upon our condition at that time. If our mind is really busy, probably counting breath might help. So, you can count breath. But, when your mind calms down, then you stop it. So, this way of saying, by Dogen, is kind of, you know, vague. We can interpret in different ways. So, none of those three teachings, Suzuki Roshi's counting breath, Katagi Roshi's watching breath, and Uchiyama Roshi's do nothing, is not against Dogen's saying. So, we have to make a choice. And because I'm a disciple of Uchiyama Roshi, I practice in this way.


And, to me, from the very beginning of my practice of Zazen, you know, when I was young, when I was a beginner, I tried to count breath. and sometimes I try to watch my breath, but I found it's different from really just sitting. It seems there is a separation between, you know, I'm counting breath, so there is a separation between I'm Shohaku who is sitting and breath that is to be watched or counted. So, I felt this is a kind of artificial practice. So, you know, I tried counting or watching breath several times, but I didn't continue.


Well, it's 10.40. Any questions, please? You asked about Tanden. When you say it in Chinese or Japanese, is it simply a part of the body, like a nostril here? Tanden? Tanden is the name of the part of the body that is said to be a few inches below our navel. So, this part. Okay, so it's physical. Yes, yes, physical, yes. Okay. So, breathing from Tanden, this expression, does it mean that we keep the concentration down here? Yes, some people say so. And even in, not Dogen, but Keizan, he said, when our mind is busy, we can place our mind on the hand.


And the hand, I mean, Cosmic Middler. And, you know, Cosmic Mother is in front of Tanden. So, the same idea. Or, in Tendai, the manual of meditation, there is not only Tanden, but also the border between hair and forehead. And also, the top of our nose. to place our attention. And this is the same as watching breath. Because breath is... the air is coming and going only around here. So, this one, this point, and this point, and this point, is a place some teachers... teach this good point to praise our mind.


But I think Dogen didn't say such a thing. As a, you know, regulating or harmonizing mind, what he says, only thing he said in Fukanza Zen is, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking, beyond thinking? That is his teaching about regulating or harmonizing our mind. And, in this book, Uchiyama Roshi kind of interprets or understands this, you know, thinking, not thinking, beyond thinking, in terms of letting go of thought, or opening the hand of thought. When we open the hand of thought, thought is there, but we don't grasp. That is thinking, not thinking, and thinking and not thinking are taking place beyond thinking. That is basic understanding of Dogen Zen Zazen by Uchiyama Roshi.


And my or our practice is based on that understanding. OK? Please. Oh, you have something to say? You just move your hand? Anyone? Please. Actually, it's funny about this question because I don't know how you could answer it, but there's a problem that I've had about Zen for a long time. It seems to me that what I first learned was follow your breath. And there was an idea about Shikintaza as being, you know, it's like this wonderful state that was almost impossible to accomplish. Or to, I mean, accomplish is the right word. And so, like, sitting Shikitaza was being enlightened. But we were just following our breath. And we probably, maybe sometimes, would occasionally get lucky in helping Shikitaza. But as soon as we noticed it, it would go away.


So. I think that There's some serious confusion in there. But maybe you can say something that will help me straighten it out. The confusion? Yeah. What is the confusion? To consider skandhata as some ideal condition or stage of our mind? Yeah. And yet we cannot reach there? Yeah. Do you recognize this story? Is that what Katagiroshi said, or your misunderstanding? Not misunderstanding, I'm sorry. Your interpretation. My misunderstanding. I'm trying to figure out whether I invented this by myself, or whether there were actually many people who were saying it this way. I think that came from Harada Sogakuro-shi's teaching. So, Harada Sougaku Roshi was an original person.


Harada Sougaku was a teacher of Maezumi Hakun. So, he was an original person, an original Soto Zen master who went to Rinzai and completed koan practice and brought back koan practice in Soto Zen Monastery, named Hoshinji. So, Harada Sogaku Roshi was the original person of this Harada-Yastani line. And Sambo Kyodan is part of it. And Maezumi Roshi's lineage is also another part of it. And, in his book, Harada Roshi's book, he said something like, Dogen Zenji's practice, Shikantaza, is the highest practice. And to teach Shikantada to the beginners is like to teach university students' study to the kindergarten kids.


That was Harada Roshi's saying. So, first, his method is first we have to practice with koans, especially something like a mu or a sound of one hand. and really able to concentrate and see the emptiness through Kensho experience. Then, after that, you know, in Rinzai, after Kensho experience, they could study Buddhist texts. Before that, studying Buddhist texts is prohibited. Someone who practiced at the Japanese Rinzai Monastery said only books they were allowed to read was comics. Comic books. They were never allowed to study Buddhism until they attained so-called Kensho experience.


Because, you know, all those knowledge before that kind of experience is just confusion. So after going through what is called the first barrier, then they started to teach different aspects of Buddhist teachings. study Buddhist teachings. In order to do so, they have to go through, you know, many hundreds of koans. And in order to pass the one koan, they have to study certain part of Buddhist teachings. So, koan system is the method that allows, you know, monks or practitioners study, practice and study based on that enlightenment experience and includes all those teachings.


And what Haradzaro said is, after, you know, all those koans practice is completed, the person can first practice Shikantaza. That was his teaching. So, Shikantaza is really difficult practice. Only people who had already enlightened could practice in that way. That is Harada Roshi's interpretation. But when we studied Dogen, Dogen never said such a thing. So that idea, you know, Shikantada is the highest practice, or highest stage of Zen practice, is from Harada Sogakuro-shi's teaching. You know, Nogen, he said, from the very beginning we have to study just sit, as he said in Fukanza Zenki.


So that is a kind of difference. OK? What does Ken show? I don't know. I never had such an experience. I really don't know. Shogo was asking about Kalagiri and Roshi in the early days. The impression that I come away with from most of Kalagiri Roshis, and also Sukuri Roshis, I don't know if it was Hiroshi necessarily, but the impression I had was that they would try anything initially. It was like, I don't know if it was spelled out like what Hiroshi said, but it was like They soon have the feeling, I think, which is true, that Americans were so far, it was so hard, that in both cases, but I remember a particular guy, Jerry, he started it one way, he would, he wouldn't say anything, he just said, but then after maybe three months or something, a certain amount of time, certain number of jokes, sometimes he would say, well, let's count, right?


And then, and then, then it would have to be elaborated or people would, ask him questions, and at least in my experience, the feeling I had with both of them was that they did things as an expediency. Temporarily, we'll do this, but they didn't usually tell us it was temporary. So in category, you know, you'd say, count the breath, breathing. And then at some point, maybe he would refer to other people who would say, now discount the exhale. and then come backwards, you know, that kind of stuff. But at some point, somebody would ask him about tiny breaths, and he'd say, oh, never mind. Or, I don't know how he did it. So he taught in different ways, depending upon the person or the condition, situation. Yeah, of the whole group, partly. I mean, they were, you know, it was just, I think, but that was my feeling, that it was,


And they didn't want people to go away. They especially didn't want to lose people. So, I mean, I think they made a lot of adjustments. Oh, that is what it means. Some people said Katagiri-Oshi gave candies. But in both cases, it would change. You know, like Suzuki Roshi at first, he said, no, I mean when I was there, I can't do the first verse, I didn't get to the first verse. But you know, no study. No study. Just Zazen. Just do Zazen. And this one, I can't, I don't know exactly. Did he teach counting breaths from that beginning? No, I don't remember that. But I was not very close. I didn't go out to the bay. I had a ride over there. It was quite a bus. But I just remember it talks. But then, after a year or so, he started talking about study this, study that. And I just began, oh, where did that come from?


But he didn't make connection historically as you do. He just said it. So people just... Confused. Because Hiroshi was something like that except... And again, their English was not so developed as yours. So, you know, basically they said, do this, don't do that. But they didn't say why or how. Yeah, you know, at the time of Suzuki Roshi or Katagi Roshi, even they want their students to study, there's no text. to study. But then this thing was counting, and then it was... Then at some point, I can't make the connection, but then somebody was asking me, he said, well, follow your breath. What about counting? I don't count. Just follow your breath. And then, you know, some period would go by, and somebody would bring up a question, and we'd say, well, just watch it.


Should we follow? No, don't follow too closely. We would do like that. I think they were adjusting to that. I mean, that's my impression now. As best they could. and still being true to the teachings, but it was, you know, with, you know, this is a slight example, you know, in the beginning, how it was, this evening, Zazen, we chanted Heart Sutra. During Zazen? No, after Zazen. After Zazen. Heart Sutra? When I got there, it was still called Heart Sutra. Well, when I was there, it was Heart Sutra. But, but, Not a few times. Many times. There will be two people. The Roshi and the Doa. Only two. And one of them are you. Never mind. And then for years, we didn't do the Heart Sutra, and I guess we never went back.


But he started out that way. And then at some point, he stopped. And then we were getting more people, I remember, sitting there. And I said, I like it. I thought it was a practice. And we do this. And he said, oh, it's not necessary. I meant no. So, you know, it was like this all the time. I see. So it's very helpful. You know, your historical connections are very helpful. It might have been nice 23 years ago, too, but it wasn't there. Yeah. We are still in the very beginning of the history of American Zen. Right. Still, we are still in the beginning. We could say even in the prehistoric age now. We are in the time of preparation. You know, even the, you know, Ehe Kōroku was not available. So there's no way to check what Dōgen said about this. Okay, it's almost 11.


Okay, thank you very much for your practice.