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I couldn't finish the paragraph 27. I talked until 1, 2, 3rd sentence from the bottom of page 19. So let me start from there. Let me read the rest of this paragraph and I'll go further. There is the radiant light that does not obstruct taking hold and letting go. It is the monk's hall, the Buddha hall, the kitchen, and the three temple gates. Further, there is the radiant light that is neither taking hold nor letting go.


It is the monk's hall, the Buddha hall, the kitchen, or the three temple gates. Also, there is the eye that penetrates the ten directions. There is the eye that completely embraces the great earth. There is the moment before the mind, and there is the moment after the mind. Because, I'm sorry, if you are not here yesterday afternoon, please rewrite the translation of the next sentence, because this is Nishijima's translation. I didn't... I forget to type my own translation. Excuse me.


My translation of this sentence is, because such virtue of the radiant light, kamma, in eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind, kamma, is rigorous, kamma, there are all Buddhas of the three times who are maintaining not knowing, kamma, and there are cats and white oxen which throw themselves into knowing. Okay? Shall I read it again? Because such virtue of the radiant light in eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind is vigorous.


There are all Buddhas of the three times. who are maintaining not knowing. And there are cats and white oxen which throw themselves into knowing. OK. The final sentence of this paragraph. This nose ring is present, and this Dharma eye is present. The Dharma expands to practice Buddha, and the Dharma listens to practice Buddha. That's the end of this paragraph. This expression


the sentence, there is the radiant light that does not obstruct taking hold and letting go. It is the monk's hall, the Buddha hall, the kitchen, and the three temple gates. This expression came from a poem or a saying of Unmon. In Chinese, this is Yong Men. He is a founder of one of the five Chinese Zen schools named Unmonshu. So, he is a very well-known Zen master. And, in Shobo Genzo Komyo,


Yesterday afternoon, I introduced one of the sayings of the Master Chosa about the entire ten directions is the monk's eye and so on. And also, the entire ten directions is the radiant light. Komyo is radiant light. Radiant. light of the self. This entire ten direction world is the radiant light of the self. That saying is by Chosa Keishin. He was the disciple of Baso or Mazu. And Dogen Zenji quote in the same chapter of Shobo Genzo entitled Komyo or Radiant Light. He caught these sayings by Unmon.


And what Unmon said is, excuse me, each and every person has the radiant light. All people, each and every person, has this radiant light mentioned by the the Master Chosa, this entire ten-direction world, is itself the radiant light of the Self. And Unmong followed this expression and said, each and every one of us has this radiant light. But he said, when we try to see it, We cannot. When we try to see that radiant light of each and every one of us, we cannot see it.


And he said, An Kon Kon, that means, it is complete darkness. Complete darkness. Then Unmon asked to his monks in his assembly, what is the radiant light? What is the radiant light all people have, all of us have? What is that radiant light? When we try to see it, we cannot see it. So he asked the monks, tell me what that light looks like. If you see it, if you try to see it, you cannot see it. Then how can you express this radiant light of the Self? Then no one said anything. So they just kept silence.


And this silence can be interpreted in two ways. You know, common understanding, they didn't know what to say at all. They didn't really understand. And more often, Dogen interprets this silence as that is the complete perfect expression of this radiant light. So we can interpret in whatever way we want. Anyway, so no one said anything. So, Unmon, the abbot, said for the sake of the monks. And that saying is, the monk's hall, the Buddha hall, the kitchen, and the temple gate. Of course, monk's hall is so-do, And Buddha Hall is Butsu-den.


And the kitchen is Chūko, Zuku. And Sanmon. Commonly, Zen monasteries have seven basic buildings and usually more than that. But those seven are very basic facilities monasteries need to have. One is a shodo, monk's hall, where monks sleep. and practice zazen, or meditation, and eat. This is monk's hall, or sangha hall.


And here is a dharma hall, that is hatto, or dharma hall, and butsuden, Buddha hall. And across to the monk's hall is zuku, This is not only the kitchen, but all the temple offices are in this building. This is called Zuku or Kuri. The same ku and ri is this word, this Chinese character. And the temple gate, Sanmon, The word Dogen wrote is san. This san means three. So I translate three gates. But this might not be just one gate. This is... Sanmon is a name of, you know, one temple gate.


And this... Sometimes this is written as this kanji, san. This Sam means mountain, so sometimes we call the gate as a mountain gate. Mountain refers to this temple. But when this gate was called Sammon, three gates, it might have, the temple might have three gates, the front gate, middle gate, and inner gate. But it's also said, Sanmon is an abbreviation of San-Gezatsumon. San-Gezatsumon. And Gezatsumon means liberation or emancipation. This gate is a gate toward the emancipation or liberation.


Those are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and there is a Tosu and Yokusu. Tosu is a toilet and Yokusu is a bathroom. Those are seven basic facilities in a typical Zen monastery. And what Umo is saying here is monk's hall, Buddha hall, and kitchen, or building, all the temple offices are there. And also this temple gate. This means, of course, these are the places, you know, monks practice in different ways. And people are coming and going. Excuse me.


So what U Mon mentioned about this radiant light of all each and every one of us is practice actual concrete practice at each of the buildings in a temple monastery. So, this is teaching for the monks, of course. Please. So, there is radiant light that does not obstruct taking hold and letting go. Is that the same as the moon and the water in Gendo Koan's moon? does not obstruct the water, the moon does not break the water, the water does not get the moon wet? I think so, but this grasping and letting go, you know, Fat Dogen several times mentioned in Gyobu Tsuigi. That is what I think it meant. That means when monks or we practice at this monastery, we, you know, Dogen said there are two sides.


One is grasping or taking hold. Another is letting go. I think that is what Dogen mentioned. So is grasping and letting go different than the karmic activity of holding on and pushing away? I think same. This is how we use our life to study the Dharma and to practice the Dharma. We have to use two sides. Taking hold means we try to understand what this is and how we should practice. And letting go means we just do it. Just practice using our body and mind without thinking. Letting go of that kind of understanding, but just do it.


And yet, on the other hand, we have to really study in detail, as Dogen has been saying. These are two sides of our practice. So, that is what Dogen is saying here, when he says, They are the radiant light that does not obstruct taking hold. So, we have to understand what we should do at the monk's hall. We practice Dazen. We have Oryoki meals. Monks sleep. You know, there are certain way or manners or dignified conduct within monks' hall. And at the Buddha hall we do certain things like doing service or at the Dharma hall we study Dharma and at the temple offices each monk works, you know, their


Depending upon their position, they do different things. So, there are certain things we have to study and understand what this means. And when we actually do the practice, do each and everything we do, we let go of that kind of understanding and just do it. That is two sides of our practice. I think that is what Dogen is saying here. So, the monastery, the practice place, does not obstruct either grasping and letting go. And next sentence, he said, there are those places or facilities That is neither taking hold nor letting go.


That is how we use this place to study ourselves, to practice Dharma. That place, that is from our side. This is a practice place. But from that place, it has nothing to do with taking hold or letting go. That is what we are doing. But this is just, in a sense, Buddha's land. Purely, you know, this is, you know, like a Sukhavati, pure land. Only, you know, Buddha practice Buddha's practice. So this is not like a school to educate monks. From one side, this is a school or a practice center. We study and practice. But from other side, this is just as they are.


Please. But there is no radiant life outside of taking hold and letting go. Yes, of course. So this is two sides of seeing one reality. It's not two separate things. Okay. And next he said, also there is the eye that penetrates the ten directions. This is same as Chosa said. This entire ten direction world is nothing other than monk's eye so this entire network of interdependent origination in which we are just one knot of this net this is nothing other than one single eye of a monk so this entire world


is one I. So there is the I that penetrates the ten directions. This reality itself is I, Buddha's I, or monk's I, or Dharma I. And there is the I that completely embraces the Great Earth. This is the same I, completely embrace the great earth. Within this network, there are many different things, you know, mountains, rivers, oceans, and forests, and all living beings. I embrace all those individual things, all these knots in the entire net. That is the radiant light of each and every being. So each and every being has radiant light and also divinity.


Because everything is connected and being as one. And this oneness of the reality is Buddha's Dharma body. So we are the part of the Dharma body of Buddha. That is the source of divinity and beauty of each and every being, including ourselves. and I don't really understand the next sentence. He said, there is a moment before the mind and there is a moment after the mind. This moment is my addition. What he wrote is there is before of this sin And there is after of this sin. So I don't understand what this means before this.


I think this is a capital M mind. And there is something before this capital M mind and something after this mind. I'm not sure he is saying about the time or not, but I temporarily put moment. That means I try to read this as a time. He's talking about time. You know, this is entire network of interdependent origination, and as Dogen said in the Shobo Genzo, Sansui Kyo, you know, this is also called a mountain. And this mountain walks. That is what Dogen discussed about in Sansui Kyo, or Mountains and Water Sutra. So, this mountain is not a fixed mountain.


This is walking within time. And it might be there is a before and after. And yet maybe he didn't say, but he said in Genjokuan, this before and after is cut off. Maybe that is what he tried to say, but I am not sure. Excuse me. If this is not about the time, I don't really understand what this sentence means. The before and the after of this mind. What is that? It's really a mystery to me. Please. Is it possible that the before and after are adjectives for the mind? So that you're talking about the before mind and the after mind? What does it mean? Oh, the condition of our mind?


In that case, this is not a big M mind, but small m mind. Is that a movement of our psychological mind? Is that what you are trying to say? I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not sure. He didn't say. So we have to interpret. That is a problem or difficulty when we read Dogen's writing. He just expresses. He doesn't explain. That's a problem. Please. I wonder if it might be like kind of a way of saying there is also no mind. Like there is before the mind that he's, you know, taking a few sentences to describe. Well, because Dogen said nothing, so we have, we can, we have authority to interpret whatever we want, whatever way we want.


But this is one of the interpretation, possible, I think possible interpretation from my understanding, please. Roshi, did Dogen's disciples, as far as we know, the folks that actually heard him give these Dharma talks, did his disciples write commentaries? Yes, one of them. Unfortunately, only one of them. One of the disciples of Dogen was Senne. Senne. After Dogen Zenji died, Senne left Eheiji and returned to Kyoto. And he founded a small temple named Yokoji. And Senne and his disciple was Kyogo. Kyogo.


Those two people, Dogen Zenji's disciple Senne was considered to be one of his Dogen's Dharma heirs. And his disciple Kyogo, it said that when he was young, very young, he practiced with Dogen Zenji before he died. And both of them wrote, made commentaries on 75 chapters of Shogo Genzo. And it's still available. So there are commentaries commonly called Gosho. Gosho. And there are commentaries as difficult as Dogen's writings. No, I made only their commentary on Genjo-Koan only.


And once I had a class here about their commentary on Genjo-Koan. So if you want, I can give my translation to you. Yes, so there is one, but it's not so helpful to us. Is there any way of knowing if Dogen's disciples understood what he was saying? I think so. At least in their ways. Whether what Fat Dogen wanted to say and what his disciples might be, I don't know. Whether they are completely the same or different. There's no guarantee. Sun Mung-Kyi, the commentary just notes that the explanation of what Dogen said. Zuimonki is a record of Dogen's informal talk to his monks.


So it's not a commentary. But I think at least Ejo understood what Dogen taught. Ejo was the major oldest disciple of Dogen. And success, he was the second abbot of Eheiji. So Ejo took over Dogen's position after Fen Dogen died. And I think Ejo devoted his entire life after Dogen's death to keep Shobo Genzo without losing anything. So he copied and compiled. So we have to really appreciate Ejio's effort to keep Dogen's writings. And yet Ejio himself was a very quiet person.


He wrote only one writing in his entire lifetime. He lived until 84 or 85. So he lived much longer than Dogen Zenji. 20, more than, I think about 30 years after Dogen Zenji's death. So we need to really appreciate Ejo's devotion to keep Dogen Zenji's writings but he himself wrote only one writing and interesting that the title of his only one writing is Komyo or Komyo Zozanmai Dogenbenji called his zazen as a jijūyū zanmai.


But Kongun Ejo called the same practice as kōmyōzō zanmai, the samādhi of the treasury of this radiant light. I'm not sure there's an English translation or not. Do you? Mind? Oh, I didn't know that. Thank you. So, if you are interested, please read that book. So, of course, Ejo Zenji's understanding of practice is from Dogen Zenji's. And main point is this radiant light. You know, each one of us has radiant light that pervades entire ten directions. and that is our Zazen.


So this is the same, very same idea with Dogen Zenji's Jiji Uzanmai. When we sit, this entire ten direction world becomes enlightenment. So the self and this entire universe are connected and one. It both penetrate each other. Excuse me. And next sentence, my translation is as I said, because such virtue of the radiant light, this Komyo, the virtue of the radiant light in Eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind. Those are, of course, six sense organs of our body.


Right? So our body emits this radiant light. This light is vigorous. That means vital, vivid. It's living. It's not a dead light. But it's a burning light. There are, he said, there are all Buddhas of the three times. That means within the practice, using this six sense organs, using this entire body and mind, There are all Buddhas of the three times within our practice using our body and mind. And those Buddhas are maintaining not-knowing.


Not-knowing is And then he said, there are cats and white oxen which threw themselves into knowing. This knowing is kyaku chigu. kyaku, chi, u. Fuchi-u is not, no, and u is being or is.


And kyaku is rather, and chi is same chi and same u. Of course, probably many of you know this expression. This is from the saying of Nansen Fugan. Do you know Nansen? Nanchuan. He was another very famous and important Zen Master in China, who was a disciple of Baso or Mazu. His saying, I think, appeared in the Shoryo Roku. Case 69. The main case is his statement, nonsense saying, not so long, it's quite short. He said, all Buddhas of the three times do not know it is.


Do not know it is. It is is. Translation is oo. And rather, cats and white oxen know it is. Know it is. That's all Nansen said. Buddhas in the three times do not know it is and rather cats and white oxen knows it is and this expression according to Dogenzenji's biography when Dogenzenji was a teenager A few years after he became a monk in Tendai tradition, he had a question, a very basic question.


If all of us are already enlightened or have Buddha nature, why all Buddhas have to go through difficult study and practice? Why Buddhas allow the body-mind and practice and attain awakening. That was according to his biography. Now many scholars doubt he had such a question when he was a teenager. Excuse me. And it said Dogen Zenji visited many teachers in Tendai school and also outside of Tendai school and One of the teachers he visited at Miidera recommended him to visit Eisai. That was the first time Dogen Zenji visited Eisai.


Eisai was the first Japanese master who went to China and transmitted Chinese Zen to Japan. And he founded the first Zen monastery in Japan named Kenninji. So, the biography, Dogen Zenji's biography said, when Dogen Zenji was 15 years old, he visited Eisai and gave that question. And the biography says, Eisai's answer is this nonsense saying. To his question, five Buddhas and ancestors has to allow bodhicitta practice and attain enlightenment or awakening. Zen Master Eisai said, All Buddhas of three times know it is, and rather... I'm sorry, don't know it is.


Rather, cats and white oxen, the animals, knows what it is. That was Eisai's answer to Dogen's question. And many scholars again doubt this encountering because when Dogen Zenji was 15, that was 1215, and that was the year Eisai died. And many scholars think he died not in Kyoto but in Kamakura. So he couldn't be in Kyoto. So Dogen Zenji couldn't meet him. So we don't know. Anyway, so this saying has something to do with Dogen Zenji's life. Anyway, the meaning is, you know, All Buddhas in three times do not know it is.


It's the same as Dogen Zenji said in Genjo Koan. When Buddhas are truly Buddhas, they don't know whether they are Buddhas or not. But they are Buddhas, so they keep actualizing or verifying Buddha. So, when they are Buddha, they don't know that they are Buddha. But they keep practicing Buddha. Keep practicing as Buddha. So Buddha's conduct is what this means. So Buddha naturally practice Buddha's conduct without knowing that they are Buddhas. Please. So is the corollary of that, the corollary of what you just said, If I know that I'm a Buddha, if I know, oh, I'm a Buddha. Then you are not Buddha. Right.


That is cats or white oxen. Cats and white oxen refer to karmic self. You know, we know. We want to know and we know what we are doing. That is one side of our practice as a human being. To grasp, to take hold. And we try to know what I'm doing and where we are. But according to this expression, that is the practice of cats and white oxen. That is the karmic side of ourselves. And as a Buddha, we don't know. So then, Joshu asked when he was a student, How do I know it's the way? Joshu said, I think in that Joshu was the student and Joshu asked to Nansen.


Nansen, right? Nansen, his teacher. And Nansen said, the way has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing. Right? Yes. I think so. So, please. Just to clarify, do the scholars doubt that Logan and Esai ever met at all? No. No, they don't doubt? Many of the scholars think they never meet each other. They didn't have a chance. Traditionally, it's said that Dogen met Eisai when he was 15. That was, you know, one year after he became a monk. No, two years. He became a monk when he was 13. Traditionally, after Dogen met Eisai, he started to practice Zen.


at Kenrin-ji. But these days, Dogen Zenji stayed at Mount Hiei until he was 17 or 18. He started to practice with Myosin when he was 18. So, there is no evidence, but from reading many different manuscripts about his life, Currently, scholars think Dogen never met Eisai. But he started to practice with Myozen when he was 18. So he practiced and studied Tendai teaching for four years instead of two years. OK? So, Fatty, your question. What does it mean when Nansen said, it is not a matter of knowing or not knowing.


What do you think that means? I think it's same as it does not obstruct taking hold and letting go. Taking hold is to know, and letting go is not knowing. But in our case, as Fat Dogen is saying in this sentence is, You know, within this gyo-butsu, our practice, within our practice as gyo-butsu, there are two sides. And both, all Buddhas over three times, and cats and white oxen are there. So from one side, we try to know. And from another side, you know, never know. But in the case of nonsense, answer I think knowing delusion and not knowing is something like blank the mind doesn't work so neither both are not not positive in the case of nonsense answer that means this


the total reality of the ten direction worlds has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing. I think that is the meaning of Nansen's saying. But in the case of a gyōbutsu in Dōgen's teaching, we have both sides, not knowing and knowing. So, I think that's the difference between Nansen's answer and what Dogen Zenji is saying in this text. As a practitioner, which has both Buddha nature and karmic nature, and both are 100%. Please. That feels very like the Sandokai. Sandokai. Which part of Sandokai? I'm just wondering if this phrase, cats and white oxen, is that related to the line that says there are house, cat, and cow?


That's the discussion... What is the word in Sandokai? Oh, Hokyozanmai. Rino Byakko. Yeah, same thing. Yes. That means a karmic side of our life, as a particular person, limited within time and space, and with this condition of these five skandhas. That is, you know, the entirety of our life. But this life is directly connected with this ten-direction world. In that sense, we are part of this Dharma body of Buddha. So Dogen is always talking from this side and this side. And within our practice, we have both sides. And both sides are 100%.


So this is not a real side. Both are 100%. So we are both completely one. and yet completely separate. That is what he wanted to say throughout this writing. You know, Buddha nature and Karmic nature are completely same. And yet, because... not and yet... because they are completely the same thing, they never meet each other. So from one side, our practice is entirely Shohaku's practice using Shohaku's body and mind. But from other side, there is no such thing as shouhaku or shouhaku's body and mind. So it is the practice of Buddha. Please. But we can't know that side. We can never experience it or know it. If we know, not knowing is this side.


So what we are doing is trying to understand both sides from this side. That is what we do when we study the text. And when we really sit in the zendo, we forget all these words and just sit. And that sitting is a manifestation of, you know, all Buddhas in three times and also, you know, this cat and white oxen at the same time. Just to go a little further with what Ed said, so if there's nothing in our experience that is the other side.


Because the other side is outside of our experience. Anything in our experience is this side, is this place. Well, I think all experience is that side. And our thinking, or memory, or whatever, or I have that experience, now I'm experiencing it. That is thinking. And that thinking is this side. And when the person who is thinking and the person who is experiencing is separate, then Buddha disappears. This is a function of our karma. A function of our five karmas. So, we can never grasp it and say, I experienced. So that was what, I believe, that was what Joshu was asking. He said, how do we know it's the way, or how do we know it's the way? He was referring to how can we understand it?


How do we know what the way is, if the way is, by definition, outside of anything? or know about it. So nonsense answer is there's no way to know. Practice Buddha. Yeah, it's there, but we cannot know. When we try to know, we lose it. But when we just do it, then it's completely there. The problem, how did he know that? That is my question. That is my question. Right. Yeah. So that is very good koan. How he knew it. Where is it? Okay. I don't know.


Yeah, somehow it came up from my life force. And I don't know if that desire or wish or vow came from. We really don't know. And as an expression, which I'm going to say, that is from the bottom of our life force. As all the plants try to grow towards the sun. We try, we... Before sinking, we have energy to grow toward the sun, to the healthy way. I think. Please. That's like the line at the top of the page that we were talking about. I'm wondering what that is pointing to. And it feels like transmission. You know, what you're describing. Yeah. this student and teacher and student, and what is and why that kind of thing can be transmitted?


Yeah, that is a very good question. OK. Last sentence of this paragraph is, when this nose ring is present, nose ring, is her be, This is a kind of a common expression in Zen literature. The hobby is, you know, when farmers use a white oxen or a cow, made a hole on their nose and put a ring here to, you know, prove the cow. So that is something that allows or makes the cow walk in a certain way.


That is something which leads our direction. That is the nose ring. It is present and this Dharma eye is present. So he said, Habi and Ganze. Ganze is another expression of eyes. The Dharma expounds practice Buddha. And Dharma listens to practice Buddha. Practice Buddha means our practice. And Dharma means this million, million dharmas. So when we practice, Dharma expounds the practice Buddha. And practice Buddha Dharma expounds practice buddha to practice buddha, to the practitioner. And dharma listens to practice buddha means practice buddha expounds dharma and dharma listens to it.


So when we practice understanding this nose ring, this means that direction we should go. And ganze means dharma eye, to see this structure of a life that is a combination of individuality and universality, or moment by moment thing and eternity, really one thing or connected. And those two sides are expressed within one practice at one moment, right now, right here. If we know that structure of our life, then Dharma and Buddha are expanding each other, supporting each other. That is what Dogen Zenji really wants to say. So, I think this is a conclusion of this writing, Gyo-Butsu-Ii.


Gyo-Butsu, our practice, expanding Dharma. and all dharmas expanding this practice buddha together, each other. Dharma listen to, yes, so expanding or speaking and listening. There are two sides. And the rest of this writing is Dogen Zenji's, how can I say, comments. He quotes three people's, three Zen masters' sayings about flame and Dharma, or Buddha. And he analyzed these three people's sayings as evidence of what he's saying in this sentence. Dharma expound Buddha and Buddha expound Dharma.


It's 11.05 so I don't think I have time to complete, finish this writing but Maybe I have time to introduce and speak a little bit of those three people's sayings and an important part of Dogen Zenji's comment on those three people's sayings. So, let me read the next three paragraphs. First, Dogen Zenji quotes Setpo Gison. Maybe I don't need to write. Zen Master Zuen Zue of Mount Shufen. This is Seppo. Shufen is Seppo in Japanese. To the assembly. All Buddhas in the three times are abiding within the frames and turning the Great Dharma Wheel.


And next, Great Master Zuo Yi of Xuansha Monastery. This person is usually called Gensha. Xuansha is a Chinese translation for this Japanese pronunciation. Gensha. Gensha Shibi. And this is the master who said, you know, the entire Ten Direction World. is one piece of bright jewel. And Dogen Zenji respected Gensha. And his teacher was Seppo, or Shuufen. And from Shuufen's lineage, two schools of Chinese Zen appeared. One is Unmon. Another is Hogen, Hogen Shu. So, Seppo was really important Zen master in the history of Chinese Zen.


And Gensha was Seppo's disciple. And what Gensha said is... Excuse me. While the flames are expounding the Dharma to all Buddhas in the three times, All Buddhas in the three times are standing on the ground and listening to the Dharma. In the case of Seppo, he said, all Buddhas in the three times are expanding Dharma within the frame. And Gensha said, the frames are expanding Dharma to all Buddhas in the three times. Then all Buddhas are standing on the ground and listening to the Dharma talk by this frame. And third is Engo.


Zen Master Yuan Wu. Yuan Wu is a Chinese pronunciation for Engo. and his name was Kokugon. Engo Kokugon. This is a very well-known Rinzai Zen Master in Song, China. And this is a person who compiled the Hekiganryoku or Blue Cliff Record. So, he is a Rinzai Zen master, and Dogen Zenji very much respected Engo. And Engo was one of the Zen masters Dogen Zenji called with the, not a title, but expression, Ancient Buddha, or Kobutsu.


And these three statements appeared in the Record of Engo, Kokugon's Record of Sayings. In the Keitoku Dentoroku, or the Record of Dharma Lamp, the story is a little different. Gensha said something different. And Unmon said what Gensha is saying in this story. So, we don't know which is original. Anyway, Dogen Zenji used the version from Engo's record. So, this person, Engo, said, I thought... He said about these two things, by seppo and gensha, as follows, I thought This person was Houbei in Chinese and in Japanese Kouhaku.


But there was another person who is Houhei or Kouhaku. Excuse me. They expounded Dharma one after another. Gods appeared. and demons vanished. Blazing flame covers the entire sky. The Buddhas are expanding the Dharma. The entire sky is in the blazing flames. The Dharma is expanding the Buddha. Before the wind blows, the nest of entanglement has been cut off. With one single word, Vimalakirti was examined and defeated. This is the comment, Engo's comment, on these two Zen masters' sayings about frame and Buddha.


So first original person was Shufen or Seppo. He said this on the occasion of the day, the first day of the winter. On that day, in the monk's hall, they first set a furnace that is usually a square box. filled with ash and they put some charcoal on it to heat the zendo. And that is the first day of 10th month. First day of 10th month in lunar calendar is about beginning of November in solar calendar.


So it was quite cold. So, until then, no matter how cold it was, they sat without any heating. So, when the furnace was set, the monks in the monks hall were kind of released. And that was the day also. During the summer, the entrance of Zendo is a screen. screen so the wind can come in. But after this day, they put the entrance of zendo something like a curtain to keep the warm air inside the zendo. So they thought something about, you know, to make the, you know, environment of sitting


not only sitting, but for monks, sleeping and eating there. So, on this day, I think monks were very happy. And that was the occasion this seppo, the master seppo, said this saying. So, this flame is not something abstract, but the, you know, fire in the in the furnace, in the zendo. So, this is something very close and familiar with the monks. This is a very concrete thing that, you know, that Seppo is talking about. He's not talking about some philosophy. Of course, in the Buddhist philosophy, fire can make, can differ two or three important things. The first one might be the fire on the burning house of three worlds from the Lotus Sutra.


I think in the third chapter of the Lotus Sutra there is a story. In a very old house children are praying and a father went somewhere And when he returned, he found that the huge old house was burning. But the children were enjoying themselves with some toys. And even the father asked them to get out. They didn't get out. That is the parable of the people in the three worlds. You know, even though The entire house is burning. Somehow we enjoy it within the three worlds of desire. When we get something that fulfills our desire, we feel so happy. And we don't want to get out of that realm. So this fire could refer to the three worlds, the fire that is burning the three worlds.


And this burning also means impermanence. And another way this fire or flame is used in Buddhist teaching is the fire of prajna. That means the prajna burns all our desires and delusions. And this, you know, fire is mentioned in Hōkyō Zenmai, the song of Jewel Mirror Samadhi. You know, this massive, what is the saying? Yeah, so this is one mass of the fire. This means this entire ten-direction world is a fire. We cannot touch this because we are inside of it and we can't get out of this.


We can't, you know, leave the fire. We cannot do anything because this is where we live and this is our life. So that is another meaning of this fire could mean. So I think these are the same fire, the fire burning the three worlds. and the fire of the Prajna and the fire of this entire ten directions is the same fire. Please. Could it be even a thousand years later that we could understand Shui Fung as not exactly joking, but kind of, it's a very intimate comment. Everybody's freezing here, and then there's this stove. They are released. Right. So, I think the monks were very happy about that saying. So, this is not our... Yeah.


So, fire is also a Buddha's compassion. Help us to sit in the cold air. Please. So, you referred to the mind itself as fire earlier. Yeah, this can mean anything. I mean, as I said, he doesn't explain, so we can interpret in any way, whether it's right or wrong. In Seppo's saying, you know, this fire in the fireplace in the monk's hall, expounding the Dharma. I mean, the three, all Buddhas in the three times are expounding the Dharma within this flame. And what Dogen is saying in his comment is, Seppo is saying, the place, the place where


all Buddhas are expanding Dharma. But the place and the Dharma and Buddhas are all the same thing. So, there is only this mass of the fire. And within this one seamless mass of the fire, there is Buddha, Dharma, and Buddha and Dharma. So, fire and Buddha and Dharma, those three are one and the same thing. That is how Dogen interprets this saying of Seppo. And, hearing this, I think Gensha was in Seppo's assembly, so he heard this statement by Seppo and Gensha said, excuse me, while the flames are expounding the Dharma to all Buddhas in the three times, all Buddhas in the three times are standing on the ground and listening to the Dharma.


So, what Gensha is saying is This frame is expanding Dharma for the sake of all Buddhas in the three times. And all Buddhas in the three times are standing on the ground. This is in the Dharma hall when the abbot ascends the altar. and like a new abbot does at the Mountainship Ceremony. So the abbot is on the altar and all the monks are standing on the ground. So this is about the scenery how monks hear the Dharma discourse by the abbot.


So, in this case, you know, the fire, the flames are on the altar, and all the Buddhas are on the ground, and the fire expounding Dharma, and all Buddhas are standing on the ground and listening to the Dharma, to the teaching, Dharma teaching, by the fire. This is what literally this means. So in this case, there is a person who is or a frame that is expanding Dharma. And there are people who are listening to that Dharma. So there is a subject and object. Now I'm talking and you are listening. But in the statement of Shepo, he only said, within the fire, all Buddhas are expanding Dharma.


That's all. He didn't mention if someone is listening or not. So, Gensha's saying means, even though this is a flame, and Buddha and Dharma are one thing. There are someone, our frame is expanding, and all Buddhas are listening. There are interactions, speaking and listening. So, this is a kind of a separation. Within oneness, there are two sides. Someone is talking and someone is listening. That is the difference between Seppo and Gensha's saying. So, in the case of Seppo's saying, this is only one reality without any separation or division.


But in the case of Gensha, even though this is one seamless reality, someone is talking, someone is listening. There are two sides. That is the difference between Seppo's saying and Gensha's saying. And next, Engo said in his comment on these two things is, I thought this person was Houbei, Houbai. Houbai, or in Japanese, Kohaku. And another one, Kouhei, in Japanese Kou, Senkou, and Koku. Right? First Kouhaku, second Kou, Koku.


Haku is white. And Koku is black. And there are two two ways of interpretations. One is these are the names of thieves, legendary thieves. Thieves? People who steal. And another is this call, white and black, this call refers to a monkey. Monkey. In that case, when we put this part in this kanji, this means a monkey, or a big monkey, like a chimpanzee. But in Dogen's text, this is not there.


So I'm not sure which is right. But if this is two legendary thieves, I think it's more interesting. They are both thieves. And they share this part the same. But difference is first person is white. Next is black. And these two legendary thieves appear in a Chinese classic text. And it said, Kouhaku was a man, Koukoku was a woman. So, man, male thief, and female thief. Excuse me. And the story was kind of interesting, but not so meaningful. Then this, the first one, white, Kohaku, was walking by a well in the town, by a well.


This woman, Koukoku, was standing. So, and it seems she was in trouble. So, the Koukoku, the male thief, asked what was the problem. Then the Koukoku said, I lost a jewel. A jewel fell into the well. So, if you can go down to the well and get it, I will pay half of the price of that jewel. Then, the male thief thought, well, after I get it, I just, you know, keep it and escape so I can get not half of the prize but I can get this jewel. So he took off all of his clothing and possessions by the well and he got into the well.


And then the woman thief took all those closing his possessions and disappeared. And this Kohaku couldn't get out of the well. That was the story. So both are thieves. But the woman thief is more smarter. So better thief than the first. But they are both same kind of people. That is the point of this saying by Engo. Engo says, Seppo and Gensha are same as these two things. Excuse me. So he said, I thought this person was Kohaku or


Houwai, but there was another person who is Houhei or Kouhaku. That means, he thought, Seppo was a very skillful thief, but there was another much more skillful thief named Gensha. That was what this saying means. So, Engo prays these two Zen masters' sayings. They expounded Dharma one after another, and gods appear and demons vanish. This is a common expression in Chinese and Japanese, that some person, like a thief, appears suddenly and disappears suddenly, without leaving any trace.


So, appearing and disappearing, you know, suddenly appearing, suddenly disappearing, without leaving any trace. So, these two seeds and these two Zen masters appear and disappear. This also means, in the case of a supposed saying, In this entire oneness of flame and Buddha is mentioned. So that side, oneness, appeared. And two sides disappeared. But in the case of Gensha's saying, two sides appeared and one side disappeared. So these gods and demons refer to oneness and two-ness, or difference and unity. One is appeared in Seppo's saying and another is disappeared. And one is appeared, excuse me, one side is appeared in Gensho's saying and another is disappeared.


And yet both, because both are same thing, completely same thing, you know, this appear and disappear is just a matter of our way of thinking. as a real reality beyond taking hold and letting go. Both are completely there without being hidden. Please. You have something? Or who? Or you? Is it significant that it is gods appearing and demons are disappearing? No. Good and demons are bad. In this case, God and demon doesn't refer to good and bad. In the case of Chinese, in Chinese culture, people who had a happy dying, happy death become Gods.


So God is not God's but human spirit. So when people died, in a good condition, became gods. And people died in a very difficult condition, became demons. So that is only the difference. Excuse me. So, and next he said, blazing flame, blazing flame covers the entire sky, covers, means covers entire ten direction world. Blazing flame. Then the Buddha are expanding Dharma. This refer to a supposed saying. And the entire sky is embracing flames.


So, Engo just changed the order of the words. The entire sky is embracing flames. The Dharma is expounding the Buddha. So, Buddha and Dharma are expounding each other in each sense. So, same thing, but different direction. Before the wind blows, the nest of entanglement has been cut off. This entanglement is an expression I mentioned, I don't know when, that is cut toe. Entanglement, cut is kuzu, and toe is wisteria. And, as I said, in Shobo Genzo Katto, he used this expression in a positive way.


But here, Dogen used as a common usage, as a negative entanglement of delusion or thinking, dualistic thinking. So, within He said, the nest of entanglement has been cut off and I'm not sure what before the wind blows means. Wind can refer to our thinking, our discrimination. Sometimes wind, you know, The ocean is like Buddha nature, but when wind blows, the ocean makes waves. In this case, wind refers to ignorance. So, one possible interpretation is, before the wind blows, before our life is influenced by ignorance.


the entanglement has been cut off. Our entanglement of our thinking. Then, with one single word Vimalakirti was examined and defeated. This means in the Vimalakirti Sutra there are many discussions about non-duality. And finally Monjishuri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, said the reality of non-duality cannot be explained or expressed by using words. And Monjishuri asked Vimalakirti, what is your opinion? Then Vimalakirti kept silent. This is a very famous story. So Vimalakirti's silence is a symbol of non-duality, beyond discrimination.


But here, Engo is saying, with these two Zen masters' sayings, even the Vimalakirti's science is defeated. Because using words, they express the exact reality of both duality and beyond duality. I think that is what Engo is saying about these two Zen masters' sayings. And the rest of these writings, we don't have time anymore. Dogen Zenji made very in-detailed comments on those three people's sayings. So, by reading this, we can understand how Dogen Zenji studied koans, used koans as a text of studying the reality of all beings.


But he didn't add anything new, anything he didn't write. in his writings before this section. So I think you can read and understand how Dogen Zenji analyzed this kind of a very simple statement. But he sees this statement from many different angles and tries to examine what this reality is. And the last thing I would like to mention as a kind of a conclusion of Dogen Zenji is paragraph 44 from page 29. It starts at 29. Dogen then said, in the beginning, the top of page 29, he said, we should be delight that although this skin bug was born far from where the sage lived, and the time, I think this I am should be we are.


The time we are living in is a long time apart from when the sage lived. we still can hear the transformative guidance of the entire sky. Although we have heard that the Buddha expound Dharma, we did not know that the Dharma expound the Buddha for many years. Next paragraph. Therefore, all Buddhas in the three times have been expounded. Excuse me. by the Dharma in the three times. And the Dharma in the three times have been expounded by all Buddhas in the three times. So this means, you know, as I said in the first lecture, at the time of Dogen, many of Japanese Buddhists think they lived in a


the degenerate age of final Dharma. So, it doesn't work to practice anything. There's no way to attain enlightenment, because we are far from where Buddha lived, and we are much later than the time Buddha lived. But here, Dogen Zenji wants to say, basically wants to say, in this entire writing and not only this writing but his entire life is because Dharma is expanding Buddha and Buddha is expanding Dharma. When our eyes are open, we can still hear Buddha's message, Buddha's teaching. If we have eyes and ears to see the Dharma and to hear the Dharma, Buddha is still alive. within our practice. If we practice, Buddha and Dharma is already there.


So, what he wants to say in this writing and also in entire life, what he said is, it's up to us whether Dharma can, you know, manifest itself or Dharma is you know, over or disappeared or die away. It's up to us whether we study and practice Dharma and we open our eyes and open our ears to the Dharma. Then, within our activities, Buddha appeared and Dharma appeared. Each and every action we practice using our body and mind with wholehearted attitude. That is Buddha.


I think that is what Dogen wants to say. And I think it's time to stop talking. I'm sorry I couldn't finish this text. But, you know, everything has ended. So we have to end. I really appreciate your practice and patience of listening to my poor English. And I appreciate also my effort this time. And I'm sorry I made so much noise in the Zen Dojo during my talk. And I hope this is not the last time to meet and share studying and practice. I hope we can meet again and practice together. I know this is a very busy time at this Zen Center, but I really appreciate your help and accommodation.


Thank you very much.