Good afternoon, everyone. I continue from paragraph 4, page 2. Even one of the teachers of teaching schools such as the masters of sutras, the masters of commentaries, and so forth. Who heard of the Buddha Way from far away said, to allow the view of Dharma nature on the Dharma nature is nothing other than ignorance. The teacher of the teaching school, Tien Tai Chi Yi, did not say to allow the view of Dharma nature on Dharma nature is the bondage of the Dharma nature.

[01:10]

He failed to say that that is the bondage of Dharma nature. And further, he added the bondage of ignorance. He did not know that there is bondage of dharma nature. Although it is pitiful the fact that he knew that in such a case we add the bondage of ignorance could become the seed of arousing awakening mind. Now, practiced Buddha has not been bound by such bondage. This is a continuation of what he discussed in the previous paragraph about thinking is not reality, real thing, but practice or action or doing or happening is real thing. And he pick up one example of the

[02:20]

teacher in the teaching schools. Teaching schools refer to all other schools besides Zen. Zen schools divide the entire Buddhism into two parts, one is Zen and teaching school. And the teachings of the teaching school is based on the sutras or commentaries. So from Zen point of view, they are teaching or study and practice is based on Buddha's words. But according to Zen, Zen people, we transmit Buddha's mind or heart, not words. So we don't use or stand on the words is a basic standpoint of Zen. Sometimes Dogen didn't like that position.

[03:22]

He said, there's no such distinction between Buddha's words and Buddha's heart. But here, he kind of a little bit criticized to this teacher from Tendai tradition. And here he said, those teachers of teaching school who studied mainly sutras or commentaries on the sutras or shastras. And he said, those are the people who heard of the Buddha Way from far away. That means they are not within the Dharma, but they are hearing from a distance. They hear the Buddha's word, but they don't get in there. They don't live within the Dharma.

[04:26]

They studied Dharma. But one of the masters from the Keating School said something as follows, to allow the view of dharma nature, on the dharma nature is nothing other than ignorance. Dharma nature is hoshō, and it said, in the case of non-sentient or non-living beings, it is called Dharma nature. But in the case of living beings, it is called Buddha nature. But Dogen doesn't separate these two, Dharma nature and Buddha nature, because according to Dogen, all beings, all living beings, entire beings are Buddha nature.

[05:40]

So Dharma nature and Buddha nature are the same concept. And what this teacher said is, You know, the reality of dharma nature, how the nature or essence of dharma is, that is a reality. But to allow the view of dharma nature to think, oh, this is a dharma nature, then this dharma nature becomes a concept of dharma nature. When we do such a thing, we lose the sight of the real reality. But we discuss about this copy of Dharma nature as a concept. That is what I think this person is saying. And that is nothing other than ignorance.

[06:46]

Ignorance is mu-myo. Myoho literally means brightness, and that means wisdom. And mumyo is lack of wisdom. And this is considered to be the first cause of twelve links of causation, that is transmigration within samsara. That means the cause of suffering is this mumyo or ignorance. And to allow the view of dharma nature on the dharma nature. So here are two dharma natures. One is the real dharma nature, true dharma nature, the reality. And another is a view or a copy of that dharma nature. You know, same as Buddha nature.

[07:51]

We Think about the Buddha nature as a concept. It has nothing to do with this real thing. This is what the master in the teaching school, Tendai school, said. According to a commentary, this saying is by Tiantai Chi. Tiantai Chi is the most important master in Tendai tradition in China. And Dogen Zenji became a Buddhist monk within this Tendai tradition. He studied a lot of this Tendai Chi's teachings. And it is said that this sentence or saying appeared in Tendai Chi's Maka Shikan, but I couldn't find it.

[08:52]

exact sentence in Makashikan. Makashikan is a manual of meditation practice. Maka is big or large. And Shikan is a different word from Shikan in Shikantaza. Shikan is see and come. She is stopping, and can is seeing. And she, stopping, is a translation of shamatha. And can is a translation of vipassana. Maybe other English, possibly English translation is insight. So stopping means we stop distracted thinking. Then we focus on one point and see things.

[09:57]

This is a basic understanding of Buddhist meditation. Stop our mind and see it. See the reality of all beings. Anyway, that is a writing by this Master Tendai Chi. But Dogen Rin says, the teacher of Tendai Chi did not say to allow the view of dharma nature on dharma nature is the bondage of dharma nature. And he put another word, ignorance. And Dogen Zen didn't like it. He said, when we thought make dharma nature as a concept, then that is a bandage of dharma nature.

[11:02]

We don't need to add another concept that is ignorance. You know, in the philosophy or theories, I think theory is like a map of the reality. It's a good thing to have accurate maps in details, but no matter how accurate it is, map is a map. It's not a real thing. That is Dogen's point here. Our thinking is like a map or atlas that is an incomplete copy of the real Earth.

[12:03]

Earth has three dimensions. map has only two dimensions. So there are many methods to produce a map or atlas. Whatever atlas has some distortion. And our way of thinking is the same as creating the map. So no matter how accurate and in detail the map is, the map is map. I think that is what Dogen Zenji is saying. So even about a Dharma nature or a Buddha nature, if we grasp as a concept, then we lose it. We are bound by thinking. But Dogen Zenji said, although it is pitiful, the fact that he knew that in such a case we add the bandage of ignorance could become the seed of arousing awakening mind means to concept is not a real thing.

[13:24]

This person knew the concept of not a real thing, but we should see the real reality. To know that, otherwise we are bound by ignorance. To know that can be a seed of way-seeking mind. But Dogen's point is, practice Buddha, jōbutsu, has not been bound by such bondage. Our practice, practice is a real thing. Practice is on the ground of reality. It's not on the map. We do, really do, using these five skandhas and express, you know, both U and Mu or being and non-being or form and emptiness.

[14:25]

We express both and we study both and we understand both sides of our life, form and emptiness, at the same time. So I go next paragraph. in the Lotus Sutra, Chapter 16, Tathagata's Lifespan, that originally I practiced the Bodhisattva way, and the lifespan that I acquired then has yet to come to an end, even now.

[15:31]

but will last twice the number of kalpas that have already passed. We should know that it is not that his lifespan as a bodhisattva has continued unceasingly to the present, nor that his lifespan as a Buddha has permeated the entire past. What is called the number of kalpas that has already passed here is the totality of what he has acquired. The even now that he has just expressed is his total life span. My original practice even if it is an iron rod with 10,000 miles long, it is also to cast down all things for a hundred years, letting them be either vertical or horizontal as they wish."

[16:48]

I hope it makes sense. Maybe not. Yeah, this is typical writing of Dogen. First, he quotes from the Lotus Sutra. This is from Chapter 16, The Tathagata's Lifespan, in our Juryo Hon in Japanese. The part of the verse in this section is often chanted in Soto Zen tradition in Japan, maybe not in this country. This section in this chapter, chapter 16 in the Lotus Sutra said, you know, I talked about

[17:53]

to three bodies of Buddha, or three kayas. And I said the second, Sambhogakaya, was established the latest. Last, but first they create the idea of Shakyamuni Buddha as a person who had five standards, body and mind. And after he died, Shakyamuni Buddha passed away. They started to think, what is Buddha after Shakyamuni died? And people thought his teaching was Buddha. And also the reality was Buddha awakened too. was the Buddha. That is the beginning or origin of the idea of Dharmakaya. So here are two bodies, the human body, Buddha with human body, and also the Buddha as Dharma.

[19:07]

And this Dharma body has no beginning and no end. So this is eternal Buddha. And the Lotus Sutra said this eternal Buddha is real Buddha. And the Buddha with human body is manifestation or incarnation of this dharma body, or eternal Buddha. And in the case of the Lotus Sutra, it doesn't use the word Dharmakaya. Dharmakaya Buddha is like a Vairocana. But in the Lotus Sutra, they call this eternal Buddha as Shakyamuni. And Shakyamuni Buddha, as a person in the history, died when he was eight years old.

[20:11]

But in the Lotus Sutra, the Lotus Sutra wanted to say is that Shakyamuni was not that person, not simply that person. But Shakyamuni attained enlightenment or Buddhahood, beginning as beginning, many kalpas ago. That is fact. the beginning of this chapter, the lifespan of Tathagata is saying. It says something like this, Then the world-honored one, perceiving that the bodhisattvas thrice without ceasing repeated their request to teach, addressed them, saying, Listen, then, all of you. This is Shakyamuni is talking.

[21:14]

Listen, then, all of you attentively to the secret, mysterious, and supernaturally pervading power of the Tathagata. Supernaturally pervading power of the Tathagata. All the words of God's Men and asuras consider, so people in this world and in the heaven and in the realm of asura, think as follows. Now has Shakyamuni Buddha come forth from the palace of Shakyakuram, unseated at the training place. I don't like this translation training place. This is a translation of dojo. But dojo is not a training place.

[22:18]

But in this case, this dojo is awakening. So enlightenment place, place of enlightenment. So dojo of enlightenment. Not far from the city of Gaia. has attained perfect enlightenment so people think buddha was born you know at the lumini and as a prince of certain king and yet he left his palace and practiced certain period of time and he sitting at the seat under the Bodhi tree, he attained enlightenment and he became Buddha. That is the way we think about the Buddha as a human being.

[23:21]

But this eternal Shakyamuni continues. But my good sons, since I veritably became Buddha, there have passed infinite, boundless, hundreds of thousands of milliard of quarters of nayutas of kalpas. I don't know how long this is. So he has been a Buddha, you know, forever, from the beginningless beginning. But he appears as Shakyamuni with human body to show this true reality of all beings. And in this context, a few pages later, Shakyamuni said,

[24:27]

Thus it is, since I became Buddha in the very far distant past, that my lifetime is of infinite asamkyaya kalpas, forever existing and immortal. So Buddha was immortal, Buddha was permanent or eternal. Good sons, The lifetime which I attained by pursuing the bodhisattva way is not even yet accomplished, but will still be twice the previous number of kalpas. This is fat dog in quotes, but I don't like this translation. So I use another translation that is Originally, I practiced the bodhisattva way, and the lifespan that I acquired then has yet to come to an end even now.

[25:42]

But we lost twice the number of kalpas that have already passed. Well, Whether we believe this or not, this is what the Lotus Sutra is saying. Buddha attained enlightenment, or Buddhahood, many karatas ago. And he attained eternal life. So his lifespan is eternal. And this eternal Buddha, Shakyamuni, appeared in this world as a prince of the king in India about 2,500 years ago. That is a kind of incarnation of this eternal Buddha. That is what the Lotus Sutra want to say. And Dogen Zenji quote this,

[26:47]

But what Dogen Renji is saying is very different from what the Lotus Sutra want to say. He's not talking about the kind of a myth that actually Buddha attained Buddhahood so many kanpas ago. But he's talking about our practice. you know, he's discussing about the Buddha as our practice. So we have to think what this means. And my understanding is, as I said this morning, In Dogen's writings, it seems he has the idea of two, not two, but three kinds of time.

[27:54]

One is a time, as we usually think, that flows from past to future. And we are in certain moments. And there is a past and future. But as I said, this is one kind of time in Dogen's writing. He said, firewood and ash, there is a before and after. So he thinks this is a conventional time. time flows from past to the future. But he also said, at the moment of firewood, firewood stay at this dharma position.

[29:00]

And when it become ash, ash is staying this dharma position. And within this dharma position at this moment, entire past and future are included within this moment, which has no length. This is, as I said, this is zero. But within this zero, entire past and entire future are included. This is, I think, is another kind of time that doesn't flow. And this present moment, which has no length, right now, right here, is a gateway from this conventional time to that time that doesn't flow. Time that doesn't flow means from the beginningless beginning, or maybe you can say from the time of Big Bang,

[30:10]

until, I don't know, the end of this universe, but this is one seamless moment. We separate by measuring times using something convenient, like one day is the time the sun goes around the moon, around the Earth, after its opposite. Anyway, so we measure the time and separate one day or one week or one year or one century, or one goddess. But within the time itself, there's no such separation. This is one seamless moment, and it doesn't flow. But in our actual life experience, because things are changing, we see times are flowing from the past to the future through present moment.

[31:24]

And when we say, for example, when we say now, depending upon the topics, now has a length. When I say, now I'm staying at San Francisco Zen Center, that means I stay in this Zen Center for one week. So now means one week. Or I can say, now I live in the United States. That means I have been in the United States for 15 years. So now means 15 years. So there are some links. and in our thinking. And yet, when we exactly, precisely think the reality, now is not really now. When I say now, who is still in the future?

[32:28]

And when I say now is already in the past. So this real moment has no length. If even the slightest length, we can divide that time into two, and half is past and half is future. So this is really zero. And space is the same, but now we are talking about time. So the time of the firewood, This firewood is nearly 100% firewood. The time firewood was actual live tree is already gone, and it's not reality anymore. And the time it was burned and became ash is not yet come.

[33:31]

So live tree and ash is not reality. It doesn't really exist. gone and yet not yet come. Only real reality is this moment of firewood. And this moment has no length. And yet, within this dharma position of firewood, entire past is included or reflected, and entire future is reflected. So, then We are really just being right now, right here. We disappear. Time and space and the self disappeared. Even we cannot say this is a firewood. Then, you know, as Dogen said, when we sit even for a short more time, our Zazen is one with all beings within the time and space in Jiju Zanmai.

[34:40]

That means when we become zero at this moment, then we are one with this time that doesn't flow. And that is eternity. And this is what I think Dogen Zenji thinks. That is the eternal life of Buddha. So our practice, not attained, but through our practice of just be, that's now right here, we become one with eternity, even though we are living within this time, the conventional time that is flowing. I think this is, you know, this is gyobutsu or practice Buddha's lifespan, even though one moment, moment by moment.

[35:44]

Still within this one moment by moment, entire past and entire future are included. That means our practice at this moment, this eternity, is manifested. This is expressed, for example, in Dogen Zenji's poem, Waka poem about impermanence. I forget the English translation, but in Japanese, it goes something like, . The meaning is this water is about impermanence. The meaning is this world is like when a waterfall sinks into the water, and come up to the surface and shake the bill, the bath bill, from the bill, you know, a drop of water splashed.

[37:21]

And only a few seconds, this drop of bill exists as individual beings, and it returns to the water. Only a few seconds. But within each and every drop of dew, the boundless moonlight is reflected. And, you know, each drop of dew becomes very bright and looks like the moon itself. That is expression of eternity within impermanence, eternity with this moment. And this is not only Dogen Zenji, but also this is a kind of a very common motif of Japanese literature, like waka or haiku, eternity within

[38:25]

one moment or eternity within impermanence. So within a tiny thing, and that exists only very short time, that boundless moonlight or eternity and something boundless is reflected. That is possible because the drop of dews are impermanent. It's moving. And gyobutsu is the same. Gyobutsu is also impermanent. Our practice is moment by moment. But within each moment, within this very tiny body and mind, this eternal life of Buddha, and boundless light.

[39:30]

Light is a symbol of Buddha's wisdom, is reflected. And that is my understanding of Dogen Zenji's interpretation of this eternal lifespan of Buddha. So it's eternity within moment, within impermanence. And our practice manifest or express the eternity within moment. The next sentence, Dogen Zen said, we should know that It is not that his lifespan as a bodhisattva has continued unceasingly to the present.

[40:36]

So he's saying this eternal life doesn't mean within this time, within this conventional time flows from past to present. Buddha's life continues forever. But these two are very different time. One is time that flows. Another is the timeless time that doesn't flow. So we must be careful about this. That is what Dogen is saying. This is not simply long life within the conventional time. Within the conventional time, You know, everything is impermanent. Nothing lasts forever. So it's, you know, moment by moment, it's separate.

[41:40]

It's impermanent. But from another dimension, this is permanent or eternal. So if we think, you know, lifespan as a Bodhisattva has continued unceasingly to the present, that means until Buddha said, you know, this saying, then within this conventional time, then that is a mistake. There's no such eternal life in the conventional time. And Now that his lifespan as a Buddha has permeated the entire past. So, Dogen then think, you know, the Buddha's eternal lifespan of Buddha is another different dimension. It's not within the time that is flowing.

[42:43]

Within this time, everything is impermanent. Nothing can be permanent. So Buddha's lifespan is not within this time. Does it make sense? Okay, good. So fat is called the number of kalpas that has already passed. That is part of this quote. Here is the totality of what he has acquired. What he has acquired is the totality of this time. And even now, that even now also came from this quote. This means this now, this present moment that he has just expressed is his total lifespan, means this lifespan.

[43:45]

as a time which doesn't flow. Then finally, he said, my original practice, this is also a part of the quote, my original practice, that is a bodhisattva practice, that is our practice, one that is a practice of gyobutsu or practice Buddha. even if it is an iron rod with 10,000 miles long. This means one piece of iron rod with 10,000 miles long as one piece. That means this time. But it is also to cast down all things for 100 years. Cast down means let go.

[44:47]

Letting them be either vertical or horizontal as they wish means within this time, things are always changing, and we have to let go. But this one An iron rod with 10,000 miles is kind of a common Zen expression. One, how can I say, seamless peace which continues forever. This another expression, 100 years, letting them be either vertical or horizontal as they wish, is a quote from a poem written by Sekito Kisen, Sekito or Shito, who was the master in our lineage, who wrote Sandokai.

[45:55]

or ,, merging of difference and identity or sameness. This is a poem entitled So Anka. Sky is song, and so on means grass, and is hermitage. Song of grass hermitage. I think you can find some English translation of this poem. And this expression, so on, also came from the Lotus Sutra. That is the hermitage where the you know, the son of the millionaire who, you know, left his father and came back, lived when he was a worker under his father.

[47:06]

This was so, and our grass hermitage or hut was used. So this has something to, almost everything Togen quote in this writing has something to do with the Lotus Sutra. This means the lifespan of gyōbutsu or practice of Buddha is eternal and yet impermanent. It's moment-by-moment thing. And yet within this moment-by-moment practice or happening, the eternal lifespan of Buddha is manifested. So if we think eternity or permanence within this conventional time, it's a completely misunderstanding. But these two are very different dimensions. And our practice of right now, right here, with wholehearted practice, right now, right here, allow us to manifest this life, eternal lifespan.

[48:21]

within this moment. I think that is Togen Zenji's idea of Igi, Gyobutsu Igi, or dignified conduct of practice Buddha. Because, you know, this each and every conduct manifests in this eternal lifespan of Buddha. This is dignified. We feel or we find dignity within that practice. When someone is really wholeheartedly doing one thing with total attentiveness, then the person disappears. Only that action, that work, that practice. Then within that practice, without self-centeredness, the eternal life manifests there.

[49:24]

That is Dogen's idea, not idea, but teaching about our day-to-day, moment-by-moment practice. We should practice in that way. Buddha's eternal lifespan or Buddha manifest within each and every action in our daily lives, whether it's possible or not. Please. And whether those actions are done well or not? Well, it's a matter. We have to make effort to do it well. But to do it well or not is our judgment, not Buddha's judgment. So from this side, from this side means the side of letting go for 100 years freely. That is our practice. So we try to do it even a little bit better than before.

[50:31]

that is practiced from this side. For example, to work in the teaching as a tenzo, we often make mistakes. But we try to do better than before, even a little bit. That is what Dogen Zen is taught in Tenzo Kyokun. So from our side, there's our practice is always incomplete. That's why we need practice repentance. But from other sides, from this side and from other sides, you know, within our wholehearted practice, even if it's incomplete or not so well done, still Buddha's, within this whole heartedness, Buddha's eternal lifespan is manifested.

[51:39]

So there's no judgment. From this side, we have to always make judgment and try to even a little bit better job each time. And there's no end. There can be no perfect job. That is how we practice as a bodhisattva. And from that side, there's no such judgment or evaluation in our practice because it is moment by moment. When it's done, it's done. It's over. It's already in the past. So we have to aim at the best job at this moment. That's all we need to do. That is what wholehearted I think means. Let's see, next paragraph.

[52:41]

Therefore, practice and verification. This here practice and verification is one word. An original expression is shu shou, shu and shou. Therefore, practice verification is neither non-being, or mu, nor being, u. Practice verification is not defilement, although there are millions of examples of practice verification. in the places without Buddha and human beings. None of them defile practice Buddha. Therefore, practice Buddha is never defiled by practice and verification. It is not that practice verification is always undefiled.

[53:49]

This non-defilement is not non-existence or mu. Does it make sense? I think so. verification is a translation of show. Verification is a translation of shu shou. Shu is practice. And shou here I translate as verification. Sometimes this expression shu shou is translated as a practice enlightenment.

[54:56]

When this expression shu and shou is used in Buddhism in general, shu is cause and shou is result. And this Chinese character shou means verification or proof or evidence. And this shu shou is, I think I said many times, but shu shou is a part of the longer expression. That is mong shi shu shou. Mon, Shi, Shu, Sho, this is a process of practice of Buddhism.

[56:05]

Mon is to hear. Shi is to think. And Shu is practice. And Sho is evidence or proof. This means when we hear someone's teaching, someone teach something and we hear it, and then we think about it, whether it makes sense or not, whether it may work or not. And when we think it may be the right thing for me, then we put it into practice. Then after practice, you know, through our own experience, we know that the teaching is true. That is this show means. So proof or evidence of that teaching is true. But usually the result of practice is so-called enlightenment.

[57:18]

Sometimes this shesho is translated as practice enlightenment. But this enlightenment is not a literal translation. So I... I use this word, verification, for the translation of this show. You know, the English word, enlightenment, is a very vague word and many different connotations. So it's kind of dangerous to use. Please. So what Shushuang Could it be described as knowledge that's been verified through practice? Yeah. OK. As a result of practice, we understand that teaching is true.

[58:22]

That is what show means, as a proof or evidence. But then Dogen Zenji says, one of the most important expressions of Dogen is shu, sho, ichi, nyo. Ichi is one and nyo is vastness or reality. That means what he's saying is shu and sho is one thing, one reality. That means if the teaching is really true, we don't need to wait until we see the result. But practice is itself evidence. Practice itself shows that teaching is really true. So when he said, Shu and Sho practice and verification are one.

[59:28]

That means within when we practice, the reality is already there. This also means, you know, within time, past, present, and future, because everything is connected with everything. You know, practice and verification, it might be in the future, are really connected. This is one reality. So within practice or within cause, result is already included. That means within the seed, flowers are already there. That is Dogen Zenji's idea of shusho as one. So here Dogen says shusho is neither non-being or being.

[60:41]

Non-being is u. But he negated he, who, and he, mu. This he, who, she, mu. Who is being. Mu is lack of being or negation of being. But being and non-being in English, that makes sense to me. So let me use this word, Wu and Mu. Wu is to be or exist. It's there. And Mu is, it's not there. And this expression, not Wu and not Mu, is a very common expression in Mahayana Buddhism to show emptiness.

[61:48]

Shin-u, not u, means mu. And not mu is u. So u, mu, and u, and neither u nor mu is the common expression to show the reality of emptiness. It's there, but it's not there. And this is about how we are. I am here. I'm talking now. But there's no such thing as called shohaku. You know, like a waterfall. You know, all there is is a certain shape of the earth or ground, and water keeps running. And we call this a waterfall, like a Niagara fall.

[62:57]

But there's no such thing called waterfall. Everything there is just a certain shape of the ground and water that is continuously flowing. So there's no such things called a Niagara fall as a fixed entity. If we take water from that waterfall, then this is not anymore Niagara Falls. So then what is Niagara Falls? There's no such thing, fixed thing, called Niagara Falls. And yet we cannot say Niagara Falls doesn't exist. It's there. And actual Niagara Falls, And the photos of Niagara Falls are different. A photo is a copy and it doesn't change.

[64:02]

It continues forever. It's permanent. But actual Niagara Falls is impermanent and it's not there, and yet it's really there. And it has great power and energy. That is what hiu-himu means. It's not there as a fixed entity, but it's there as an actual, how can I say, movement of energy. And not only the Niagara Falls, but we are the same. And our practice is the same. Our practice is like a waterfall. It continues, and we cannot say our practice exists. It doesn't exist. It's not existence. It's happening. So we cannot say our practice or practice Buddha, gyobutsu, is u, or gyobutsu is mu.

[65:10]

Ni ga u no wa mu. And practice verification is not defilement. This defilement is a translation of zhenna. This is also an important expression in Dogen's teaching. This woo and moo and also defilement came from story, koan story. about the first encountering of the six ancestors and his disciple, Nangaku Ejo. I think you are familiar with this story. Nangaku Ejo was a young training monk, and he practiced with certain teachers at Mount Su.

[66:13]

and he heard about six ancestor Huinan, so he traveled to visit six ancestor. And when he first met with Huinan, Huinan asked, where are you from? Does it work? Where are you from? And Nangaku just replied, I'm from certain mountain where certain teacher lived, and I practiced there. Then Xunan asked again, this is a kind of an interesting question, what is that that does come? Does it make sense? What is it that does come? Yeah. Original expression is so-mo, buts-in-mo, right?

[67:33]

So-mo is fact, and buts is thing. And ingo is thus. And lai is come. So he's asking Nangaku Ejo not the place where he stayed before he came to his place, but he's asking that thing that come. In that way, that means, what are you? Really is. But in the story, Nangaku didn't understand what this question is. And it said he practiced with Huinan for eight years. And after eight years of practice, he finally understood the meaning of this question.

[68:37]

So he visited Huinan. and said, I first understood the question you gave me when I first came. So six ancestors asked, how do you understand? Then Nanak said, Maybe I don't need to write. That means if we try to say something about this thing, it miss the mark. Whatever I say is not hit the mark. That means I cannot say anything about this thing. That is Hinangak's answer. Dogen quotes in the next paragraph.

[69:44]

After that, Hunan asked again, if this thing cannot be said anything, then is there a practice and verification, sure and sure, are there or not? Then Nangak said, we cannot say there is no practice and no verification, but practice and verification cannot be defiled. That is Nangak's answer. This defilement means, you know, our practice and verification is defiled by our desire. That is the origin of Dogen Zenji's expression, just practice, just sit, without trying to avoid this defilement of to practice something with expectation of some good result as a reward.

[70:59]

But just keep sitting, keep practicing without any expectation. that is, practice without defilement. Then Xun'an heard this answer from Nangaku. Xun'an said, that is what Dogen quote in paragraph 7. That is, simply this non-defilement is what has been protected and maintained by all Buddhas. You are also like this, I am also like this, and all the ancestors in India were also like this.

[72:02]

This is a koan story about Nangaku and Hinan. And using that story, Dogen said, our practice, that is gyobutsu, is ni-da-mu-no-wa-wu. That came from Shuinan's question. If we cannot say anything about that thing, is there practice and verification or not? That means if there's nothing, this is nothing, then why we have to practice? This is completely empty. Do we have to practice? Do we have to study something? Do we have to make effort to become something? That is Huinan's question.

[73:05]

Then Nangak said, you know, we have to make effort, we have to practice, we have to study. And yet our study and practice should not be defined by our desire. of gaining something. And Huinan accepted Nangak's answer and said, here it is, this non-defilement, non-defilement means this practice and verification without defilement. is what has been transmitted from Shakyamuni Buddha to himself, to the six ancestors. So practice without defilement, practice without gaining mind, is what has been transmitted.

[74:09]

we go back to paragraph six. So, Dogen said, although there are millions of examples of practice verification in the places without Buddha and human beings, none of them defy the practice of Buddha. So there are you know, millions of practice enlightenment are the activity of practice Buddha, or ryo-butsu. He said, in the places without Buddha and human beings. This is mubutsu muni no tokoro, the place without Buddha and human beings, but that means, you know, we are human beings, and Our goal of this practice is Buddha, to become Buddha.

[75:22]

But here there's no human beings and no Buddha. That means no separation between starting point and goal. But we just practice moment by moment. Even though we practice within this so-called bodhisattva path, from the starting point to the goal. That is our vow, voice sattva vows. That is our fourth vow. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. We vow to attain it or become it. That is the goal of the voice sattva practice. But Fat Dogen is saying here with the expression, the place without Buddha and human beings means there's no such separation between starting point and goal.

[76:27]

That means we are already in the goal from the very beginning, and yet our practice has no end. It continues forever. It's very contradicted and almost nonsense. But this is Dogen's idea of practice and enlightenment or verification are one. We continue this practice without defilement to the end of our life or even after end of our life. Do you have something to say? The person that you're getting there at this point, this person believes that they're awakened and they're eluded. So a person can never, he had strictly become one. Is that where you're speaking, you're thinking about an individual?

[77:32]

Yeah, that is what Nogen's saying, I think. Enlightenment is something like a personal experience. Or from other side, all our personal experience is experience of enlightenment. Whichever you like. I would be equally deluded if a person dove in or a person shocked the moon as having come to light. That's fine. If it only happened in this moment. Yeah, reality is only this moment. You know, my experience in the past, even though that is awakening experience, it's gone. It has nothing to do with what I'm doing right now, unless I am awakening now. Right? So, what Dogen Zenji want to say is, whether we are

[78:39]

important thing is practice, not so-called awakening experience. You know, awakening experience is kind of a personal thing, and there's no way, you know, other people can judge, even though there's certain method or practice in other tradition. What Pat Dogen said is we cannot, you know, evaluate someone's experience. only way we can evaluate, I don't like the word evaluation, but we can see whether this person is walking in a light track of what sort of practice is the person's activity, how this person practice, how this person do things, behave toward the person, himself, oneself, or other people. So practice or action is a real thing.

[79:43]

Of course, experience is also a real thing, but we cannot share the experience. Does it make sense? Here we are. So those millions of examples of practice verification does not defile the practice Buddha, because practice Buddha is moment by moment. We cannot grasp what I did last moment. This moment is already this moment. Therefore, practice Buddha is never defiled by practice and verification. So, if we think practice and verification or cause and result are two separate things, then, according to Dogen, that is defilement.

[80:46]

Already we are thinking. And it is not that practice verification is always undefiled. You know, we can defile practice enlightenment, our practice, in many ways. And almost always we do. And yet, this non-defilement is not non-existence or mu. That means we cannot say there's no such thing. It's there, and we can practice in that way, but unless We are very careful. We defile our practice verification. It's almost 4.30, so I think this is a good place to stop. Any more questions?

[81:49]

Please. Let's elaborate a little bit more on this last sentence here, this non-defilement is not true. So yes, we can certainly defile our own, and it's not defiled by not existing, but I'm still not understanding the last sentence. It means we cannot say there's no such practice verification without defilement. It's it is there as a job with your practice buddha and yet we often defile it or there's always there is a possibility to defile it but we cannot say there's no such practice enlightenment or practice verification without defilement we can't say that there's no such Practice, verification.

[82:51]

Yeah. We cannot negate the possibility of such practice with such an attitude, without defilement, without desire to make this person a better person. Thank you very much.

[83:30]

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