Good morning, everyone. Good morning. Probably I made a mistake. I mean, when I talked about the Mazu or Basho's teaching of one mind is authentic mainstream Zen teaching and 9080, and Dogen didn't agree with that. with that theory. So I said I had a question if Dogen is a Zen master or not. Dogen was a Zen master or not. I think that is a mistake. I mean, I oversimplified. probably you got the impression that I said only Nanyo Echu and Dogen disagree with Mother's teaching.

[01:06]

But I should have mentioned that Nanyo Echu's influence to the later Zen masters in China. That is... I cannot... But I think this is important. Let's see. Nanyo Echu, as I said, was one of the major disciples of Shuinan, the sixth ancestor. And he practiced by himself in the mountain for 40 years. And he was invited by the emperor and became the emperor's teacher. So he was a very well-known, respectable teacher, but he didn't have so many disciples.

[02:17]

And his lineage didn't form a school. But he only had, at least as I know, only one disciple. You know, . And his disciple's name is Tangen. I don't remember Chinese pronunciation. And I don't know if Tangen has his own disciple or not, but no one is well known. So that was kind of an end of his lineage. And 9-0-8-0's Dharma brothers are Seigen, Yosh, I'm sorry, Seigen.

[03:24]

And Seigen was a teacher of Sekito in our lineage, Hisen. And Sekito's disciple was Yakusan. And another Dharma brother of Nanyuechu and Seigen Gyoshi was Nangaku Ejo. And Nangaku's disciple was Baso, Doitsu, or Mazu. And Mazu had many disciples. It said he had about 80 Dharma heirs. And one of the most important disciples of Basho was Hyakujo. And Hyakujo's disciple was, he had two major disciples.

[04:33]

One is Obaku. Ki-un. And another is Isan. Rei-yu. And the other disciple was Rinzai. And Isan also has many disciples, dharma-yaks. But two important disciples were Gyo-san. Gyosan, ejaku. And gyosan and kyogen, chikan. You know, Gyosan and Isan. Gyosan was the major dharma heir of Isan. And Isan and Gyosan's lineage was called Igyosyu.

[05:36]

shu means school. So this is the first of the five schools of Zen in China. So isan and gyosan are very important. And another person, kyogen chikan, is known because of his way of attaining awakening. And Dogen often mentioned about Kyogen. Kyogen was very brilliant person. And Kyogen originally practiced with Hyakujo Ekai. But probably because Hyakujo passed away, he came to Isan and practiced with Isan. So he was a very intellectual person. He knew everything. So Isar asked him, please tell something about Dharma without using any words you studied from sutras or any text or any persons.

[06:48]

So he tried to say something, but everything he can tell is what he studied. So he gave it up. And anyway, finally he left Isan's monastery and lived in mountains where this person, Nanyo Echu's grave located. So he became a kind of a caretaker of Nanyo's grave. And one time he sweep the ground, he hit the stone, and that stone hit the bamboo. And the bamboo and the stone made a sound. At that moment, when he heard the sound of stone hitting bamboo, he attained awakening.

[08:01]

That was a very famous story. And Dogen quote that story in his Shobo Genzo Keisei Sanshoku. or sound of valley stream and of colors of mountains. And that sound of bamboo or sound of stone hitting bamboo is one of the examples of un-incentive expound the Dharma. So he finally found or awakened to the Dharma, expanded not in the text, using words and concepts, but within the actual reality of his life. So Kyogen has a relation with 9-0-H, probably he went there.

[09:04]

He respected Naio Echu. And another relation was Gyo-san, this person, Gyo-san. Gyo-san, when he was young and before he practiced with Isan, he practiced with Tangen, Naio Echu's disciple. That is a connection between Nanyo Echuf and Isan's lineage. And another connection important to us or to Dogen is Donshan. Donshan is Yaksan's disciple was Ungan, Donjo. And his disciple was Tozan. Tozan or Dongshan.

[10:07]

And Tozan was the founder of Chinese Soto Zen lineage. And when he was young, Tozan practiced with Issam. And another relation between Tozan and Nanyo Echu was Tozan was born in the place where Nanyo was born. So they came from the same province. So probably Tozan felt a close connection with this Zen Master Nanyo Echu. And when Tozan practiced with Isan, somehow he asked a question to Isan that Nanyo had a teaching of insentient beings expanding dharma.

[11:12]

Then Isan said, could you repeat what Nayo said? And Tozan repeated, decided exactly what Nayo said in his conversation between that monk from the south about the incident beings expanding karma. And Tozan asked Isan what this means, what expounding in sentient beings, expounding dharma means. And Isan said something. Maybe he didn't say something. He did something. He did something. And he asked, did you hear? he did something very simple.

[12:16]

Or he just kept silence. And ask his son asked, told them, did you hear? And he didn't, he said, I don't hear or I don't understand. And he told them ask, is there someone who understand this? point of dharma in your lineage or in your assembly. And somehow Isan said, there are few. He said, not many, but few people understood. But he recommended, Isan recommended to visit Ungam. He, Ungan, lived in a cave, I think. So he was not a well-known teacher, but somehow Isan recommended Tozan to visit Ungan.

[13:21]

That's why Tozan first visited his teacher, Ungan Donjo. And his question was, what is the sentient being's expounding dharma? And the story continues, but I don't have time to talk about that. But so, Tozan's awakening, enlightenment, is about this point. So through, you know, Tozan. Tozan is a very important ancestor in our lineage and also the founder of Soto School in China. So through Tozan, his teaching about the sentient beings expanding Dharma become part of Zen tradition. Yes, yes. I think he saw the reflection of himself on the water.

[14:35]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And yes, that is the same person. And so which was his enlightenment, that episode or? That was the final, I don't know. Final one next to final. But when Tozan talked with Ungam, he had some understanding. And he said, in sentient beings, expanding Dharma was very wondrous. And when we hear it with our ear, we cannot hear. When we hear it with our eyes, we can hear it. You know, this means, you know, Eye and sound, eye and color or shape, and ear and sound are bounded.

[15:38]

Then we have separation and interaction between eye and color and ear and sound. There's a separation between subject and object. But when we hear the sound with our eyes, there's no such separation and connection. there's no such separation between subject and object. That is how we can hear the dharma expounded by the insentient beings. That means we need to be free from this, what is the word, hooking. Our sense organs and the object of the sense organs are somehow hooked. So when we see something with our eyes, we almost automatically think, I like this or I hate that.

[16:46]

When we hear the sound with our ear, the same thing happens. But what Tozan said is we need to experience without such a kind of habitual way of habitual or karmic way of responding to the object. Please. Sorry, Roshi. Just to tie everything together for my making fun, When it refers to the pebbles and the stone, it kind of refers to the statement of . Is that correct? Yes. Please. My understanding was, so non-dual agents are someone who came up with this future?

[18:01]

Within Zen tradition, he was the first person. Please. So is hearing with your eyes, is this a kind of non-thinking? Yes, yes. So I have to say, you know, that teaching of Nanyo-Echu was part of Zen. So we need to say, you know, Mazu or Baso's teaching of one mind, is, I think, still a mainstream of Zen. But his teaching also became a part of Zen. And also, not only Nanyo to Tozan, but also in Tozan's lineage, for example, Sekito Kisen wrote Sandokai.

[19:03]

And Sektor wrote in Sandokai, and Basso's teachings are quite different. So probably not only 9-0-8-2, but Sektor has different understanding about dharma from Basso's One Mind Zen teaching. So, Zen is not only one teaching, but Zen is a kind of a, how can I say, collection of different kind of teaching, and it's like a rope. That means, you know, this is not one school, but five schools of Zen, and people who belong to those five schools, you know, have interaction. for many years. So for example, the person who wrote the poem of Valley Stream was Su Shi.

[20:09]

He was a very well-known poet in Song China. And when he wrote that poem of Sound of Valley Stream, he practiced with a Zen master. And that Zen master was Rinzai Zen master. So even in Rinzai tradition, they have this teaching in sentient beings expanding dharma. So this is not two separate schools, but they kind of mixed everything, because then masters or then teachers or then practitioners are not so much emphasis on that kind of theoretical things. So I think they didn't care about these two different kind of teaching mixed together.

[21:12]

But probably Dogen had very sensitive about this kind of difference in the logical way. So he tried to find the origin of this teaching that practice delusion and enlightenment are within the relation between self and myriad dharmas. Not simply, you know, when we stop thinking, the one dharma beyond thinking appears, and that is enlightenment. But Dogen said in Genjo Koan, you know, delusion and enlightenment is within the relation with self and myriad dharmas. And I think he tried to find the source of that teaching or understanding of dharma.

[22:20]

And I think he found 9080. I think that was the reality. So if you hear what I said as Only Nanyo and Dogen disagreed with Basso. That was not true. Please. Yeah. As Nanyo Echu had a conversation with a monk from the South, the teaching in the South, according to Nanyo Echu, is same as Seneca. Right? That's the difference. And 9-0-8 said, mind is not such a thing, such a kind of like a noumenon beyond phenomena.

[23:30]

But, you know, what 9-0 said is that mind is not noumenon, but mind is fences, walls, tiles, and pebbles. That means each and every concrete, nothing special thing. That's the difference. OK? Please. This story, I thought it was ,, but I might be wrong, about a monk saying, I hear that you teach mindless Buddha, and some story like that. Why do you teach it that way, or something that you said, it's like giving leaves to, all the leaves to children to stop them from crying? That must, yes. Yes. What do you say when they stop crying? Yes. No mind, no Buddha? Right.

[24:33]

That is baso. And another thing I have to say is Dogen never criticized baso. Never criticized Basso himself as a person. And he sometimes quote Basso's saying in a positive meaning. So we cannot say Dogen, how can I say, rejected that kind of teaching. So to me, how these two teachings could get together within one person? in our discriminating mind, in my discriminating mind. So there must be something I cannot understand. So if you are interested in this point, please study Chinese Zen more deeply. I don't read Chinese, and I haven't studied Chinese Zen texts so extensively, so I cannot say for sure.

[25:44]

But I only studied Chinese Zen in order to understand Dogen. So my understanding and what I'm saying is biased. So I hope someone can study Chinese Zen more extensively and deeply and try to figure out what is these two kind of, not a stream of people, but thinking or understanding of dharma relate to each other. Please. I appreciate what you said yesterday about the five stambas are all that suffer. The five stambas, not only, I mean, also with speaking of the sentient, they tie together for me because

[26:47]

They both make sense what I think. I know this is a big topic to bring up, but I just was wondering if there's anything wrong with that or if I'm using something that just this is a very kind of mechanistic view of ourselves as just causes and conditions. There's nothing else. Sure. Please. Is the mind that we speak of as the one mind in the Yogacara? One mind teaching is not the Yogacara. Okay. It's the one mind we're speaking of and more fundamental than alaya consciousness. You mean alaya? Alaya consciousness. Is it more fundamental than that? One mind, you mean?

[27:48]

One mind in Tathagatagarbha theory? More fundamental? In other words, is the storehouse consciousness conditioned? Because what I'm hearing is that the one mind, Tathagatagarbha, is not conditioned. Yes. In Yogacara's teachings, you know, the truth, reality or tathātā is beyond our consciousness. So it's beyond the storehouse consciousness. Yeah, so we cannot reach. But in Tathāgatagarbha they said, they thought this tathātā or the ultimate reality or ultimate truth works within phenomenal world as a manifestation of that thing so non-sentient beings are therefore expressions

[28:57]

of the one mind, special cases of the one mind, and that's where they communicate Dharma. All those phenomenal beings came from the one mind. That is their teachings. So this phenomenal world in which everything is coming and going, appear and disappear, is not the real reality. The reality is beyond that. Nothing allows nothing to perish. Okay? Is that the net you sometimes refer to in things? I don't think so. Indra's net, or the net in my expression, the network of interdependent origination in which everything is connected with everything.

[30:08]

This is a phenomenal world. In this understanding of dharma, there's no such phenomenon. And I don't think Dogen mentioned about this kind of one mind beyond the phenomenal world. In his teaching, everything is phenomenal. There's nothing beyond the phenomenal world. So what he's talking about is interconnectedness of all beings. Therefore, each and every being has no fixed self-nature. So we are living and existing together with all beings within phenomenal world. That's all. Dogen never said, this is the, how can I say, this came from that noumenon.

[31:14]

I think not only Dogen, but Buddha also said, Buddha also talked only about the phenomenal world. the deathless, the refuge, the unassailable, the many, many words he used to describe the state. Have you seen that phenomenal work? I think so. Thank you. You know, when Buddha or Nagarjuna talks about nothing arise, nothing perish, that means because there's no fixed being. So we cannot say this arise. We cannot, you know, I was born 67 years ago, but what is born if there's no such fixed entity as shohaku? Only five skandhas get together and stay for a while and it's passed.

[32:18]

Nothing is born and nothing dies. That is what emptiness means. So Buddha or Nagarjuna or Prajnaparamita never said, you know, there's something which doesn't arise, doesn't change beyond the phenomenal world of arising and perishing. If you understand what the heart sutra said, arising and perishing, there's something which doesn't arise and perish beyond this phenomenal world, then I think that is not a correct understanding of the heart sutra's saying. But if you say something, then it's talking about phenomena. So it's saying there's nothing phenomenal beyond the phenomeno. That's not exactly the same thing as saying... Nothing phenomenal beyond phenomenal. You know, so if... I mean, there's a kind of... What I'm saying is...

[33:29]

Buddha did use these words like the deathless, the refuge, etc., etc., etc. And I think I heard you said he's talking about a phenomenological state. He's not actually talking about... Beyond the phenomenological state. He's not talking about something indescribable or anything like that. No. Something beyond this phenomenal world. No. In my understanding. So suchness does not occur apart from phenomena. No. Suchness is how phenomenal beings are. So we can't speak of suchness beyond phenomena. No. In my understanding. But in some people's understanding, it's different. So in the Mota Sutra, when they talk about millions and millions of Buddhas everywhere, etc., is that just a fantastical imagination to Dogen?

[34:39]

Almost imagery, images? I think so. I don't think Dogen believed all those Buddhas are really there. Because Buddha said, not Buddha, I'm sorry, Dogen said Buddha is only one, Shakyamuni, other person. All the Buddhas, like Dharmakaya Buddhas, like Vairochana, or other Sambhogakaya Buddha was produced to understand who Shakyamuni really was. So I think Dogen knew all other Buddhas, a kind of image produced based on Shakyamuni's teaching and presence. So there aren't these invisible bodhisattvas in this room helping us. Because sometimes you get that feeling when people talk.

[35:43]

But that's not the case. There'll be these invisible bodhisattvas who are always aiding us. It's not the case. That is an expression of, you know, we are connected with all beings throughout time and space. So each and every being at the present moment within this space and all beings in the past and all beings in the future are actually connected with what we are doing in this moment. And all the Buddhas in the ten directions and three times, and means we are together when we are eating or when we chant. We are together with all those beings. That is my understanding.

[36:46]

I don't think Dogen really think those Buddhas and Bodhisattvas as individual people are existing somewhere. That's such a relief to hear. You know, one reason I avoided the Lotus Sutra is sort of like beyond Bollywood, you know? I love some of the language that stands out, but I don't know. Most of it, it's like... I think that is the reason Shuinan said we should read, study, and understand Rotasutra as our self-mind, or jishin. And Dogen said to study the Buddha ways, to study the self. we don't need to believe what is written in the Lotus Sutra is all historically true or actual fact.

[37:54]

If we need to believe such a thing, everything we did in the Sutra is historically true, we become crazy. Yes. Would it be wise to look at the development of these ideas of these invisible bodhisattvas or beings that are a part of space and time, us trying to think they're in this room or something like that, is that an example of the skapas kind of clinging or clicking? Klinging and clicking. I would say interconnected. with everything because there's no such fixed entity called shohaku within five skandhas. Five skandhas is just a collection of different element and they are coming and going.

[38:58]

You know, even our body is changing. Something new come in, like water or food, and it become a part of our body, and something old go out. So this is cycling. So there's no such fixed body and mind named shohak. But this is, in Buddhist teaching, this is like a waterfall. Waterfall? There's no such a thing called a waterfall as a fixed entity. Waterfall is a correction of the shape of the ground, earth, and water. And water is always changing, always new. And our life is the same. There's certain system and, you know, all our energy is running, flowing, and that's all.

[40:07]

That means, you know, there's no fixed entity, separate or independent from other beings. Means we are connected with all beings. And those kind of images of both sattvas and Buddhas throughout time and space is an expression of this understanding or awakening to everything is connected with everything throughout time and space. Does this make sense? Please. I don't understand what mystical means. There's no such thing in Buddhism. Mystics is a Western word.

[41:17]

In my understanding, mystic means, you know, truth or reality cannot be expressed using words and thinking concept. Is that the meaning of mystics, to be mystical? Is my understanding of this word to be mystic or is the truth or reality cannot be expressed, understood and expressed using words and concept? Is that fact to be mystical means? Then that is a part of Buddhist teaching. that truth or reality cannot be reached and fully expressed using words and concepts. That is part of Buddhist teaching. And yet, as Shakyamuni and Lotus Sutra and all the Zen masters, including Dogen, they always try to express

[42:30]

what they experienced using words and concept. At least to Dogen, some Zen masters were almost like mystics, but at least Dogen put very much emphasis on expression using words and letters. You know, one of the fascicles of Shōbō Genzo is dōtoku. Dōtoku means, dō is speaking and saying, and toku is to be able to. And in that, Fasikuru Dogen basically says, if we experience something, until we can express that experience using words, it's not a real, true experience.

[43:33]

So for him, using words, expressing using words, is really important. In that sense, Dogen is not a mystic. Does it make sense? Please. I think it's really a difficult question because he speaks in mystical language all the time. His language could be mystic. is language can be mystical. I think to be mystical means beyond language. Those are poetic expressions. But I'm not sure whether to be poetic and to be mystical, same thing. Mm-hmm.

[44:54]

So the reality itself is beyond words and letters and concept. But Dogen said we have to express using words and letters. We need to express the reality and also our experience of reality by using words and letters. And he said that's possible. That is possible. to express the reality beyond thinking, beyond words and letters, using words and letters. That's the pointing. Yeah. Is it to be mystical means? I think so. OK, if you say so. Point to the inexpressible, I think, is what we're talking about, what I think about the point to the inexpressible. But for example, not Dogen, but Ryokan, you know, we usually think words is like a finger, and the reality is the moon beyond words.

[46:15]

But Dogen said, I'm sorry, not Dogen, but Ryokan said, this finger is a part of the moon. Beside the moon, there's no such things called finger. So it's not so simple. Okay, please. I'd like to return to Dogen. Okay, okay. I was going to say, sometimes mystical means a direct experience of something outside of words, as you were saying, but an actual experience like the yana darshana you were talking about, an experience of insight into the truth directly without your mind. It's mystical. I think there isn't anything beyond the phenomenon.

[47:18]

That applies within conventional reality or duality, but it doesn't apply within non-duality. Well, conventional reality and ultimate reality, or conventional truth and ultimate truth. Duality and non-duality? That is two ways of seeing one reality. It's not there are two worlds, phenomenal world and ultimate, phenomenal, noumenal world. Yes. So these are two ways to seeing one reality. And this one reality is phenomenal reality. Right? Okay. Isn't body and mind dropping off? Really? Well, he... express his experience using words, talking of body and mind.

[48:31]

And to me this is, you know, five skandhas simply being five skandhas. It's not something special. If mystical experience means something special, beyond what we usually experience in our daily lives, then I don't think Dogen's experience of dropping of body and mind is something special. But he found everything we do, and each time we sit in zazen, letting go of thought, this is dropping of body and mind. Or, you know, originally this expression, dropping of body and mind, or shinjin datsuraku, was Dogen's teacher's expression, not Dogen's. And when Dogen asked, what is the meaning of dropping of body and mind? Before that, his teacher Nyojo said, Zen practice is dropping of body and mind.

[49:38]

Then Dogen asked Nyojo, what is dropping of body and mind? And Nyojo said, dropping of body and mind is the Zen. So not some kind of special condition within zazen, but zazen is itself dropping of body and mind. That is what Tendo Nyojo and Dogen, I think, is saying. So I'm not sure this is mystical or not. It can be mystical. All our experience is mystical. It's not happening within our thinking. But that is not some kind of a special experience only special people could experience. Please. We keep using the word experience, and now I think you're using it a lot too. I don't think you use that word usually. I'm wondering if there's a better word for us to understand, a Japanese translation of that word.

[50:47]

I just read a translation of the word experience to its origin has at its base the word perilous. So the word experience means to go through something perilous or dangerous that we go through. And I wonder if our association, using that for mystical, we're going through something beyond, beyond. But that for Dogen, that word would not That would not be a word that he would use. It's just dropping off. It's not going through the turmoil or danger and dropping off. It's very... You mean shinjin-datsuraku, or dropping off body and mind? Yes. Or anything that we're grasping for in terms of mystical means to go through something dangerous, perhaps, or for us. To be mystical is to be dangerous. Yes, I think that's why we keep saying mystical experience, because the root of the word experience is danger, peril.

[51:52]

But probably not, it's not used in Japanese. So, long question, as I'm asking you, if there's a better word than experience in the Japanese, or how would that be translated to bring us down to earth? Or non-thinking or non-thinking. Does it work? I'm not sure. But it's a good word. If experience means something happening, right? How would you translate it in Japanese? This English word, experience? If you were even going to use it. Because I don't think that you've used it very much, except you're using it a lot now. The English word experience? Yeah.

[52:54]

We're linking it with mystical again and again. I understand why it's a problem. Well, I think experience is not something special, but everything we go through, everything happening in our life is experience. Even thinking about our experience is something we are experiencing. So I don't think experience is something special or something, how can I say, something which happens rarely. But everything happening within our life, I think ordinary things is experiences. I think of the use of seeing as a miracle, the five skandhas as miracles in themselves, whereas miracles ordinarily,

[54:01]

or thought of as some intervention, some special intervention. And the fact that Buddhism kind of excludes special powers, it doesn't cultivate them or give them a special place, even though clearly they're acknowledged as something that people can develop. Does this mix into this discussion? I'm not sure. I'm sorry. Please, I'm sorry. Why Jordan or expressing things cannot be expressed with words is important because primarily communication way is a large language that's quite important. I think so. In order to share what we experienced and what we discovered, what we awakened to, that is Buddha's problem.

[55:28]

How he could express what he experienced under the Bodhi tree, to share the same experience. I'm sorry. same awakening with other people. In order to do so, he need to kind of translate what he experienced to the language, I think, using language. I think that is why even though all Buddhists, including Shakyamuni, think the reality itself is beyond our thinking and our wording, still we need to use thinking and language to share this reality. Okay.

[56:29]

What about art or dance? Art. Art. Aesthetics. Well, you know, there are many Zen art, and that is an expression of their awakening. So it's possible. And often, not often, but almost all the masters use composing poems, including Dogen. So that is how they express and share the same awakening with other people and allow other people to experience the same thing. I'm reminded of a poem that Togen wrote. I didn't memorize it, but paraphrase. Language expresses the Dharma but does not exhaust it. Exhausted. Does not exhaust it. Does not. There's more to more than So no language expression is complete, perfect.

[57:41]

So we need to develop more and more. Yeah, right. Is it possible to express the Dharma besides expressing it in words? Is it possible to express it, as to say, as a painting or as a dance or as music? I think so. And, you know, the Zen is one of that kind of expression, I think. And even the making prostration or doing gassho, or eating using Oryoki, everything can be expression, I think. Well, can I return to Dogen's text? This is the fourth day, right?

[58:45]

So more than half day, half of this retreat is over, and we are still kind of stage of introduction. So I think yesterday I finished talking about Hui Nan's poem about the turning, being turned by dharma flower and turning the dharma flower. So we are still talking about the conversation between Huynan and his disciple, father. But I think I have to a little bit in hurry to finish this text. So paragraph 11, it's Page 6 in my version.

[59:46]

Let me read paragraph 6. Upon hearing the verse, father addressed the ancestor again, saying, The sutra says that even if all the greatest shravakas and bodhisattvas thought and tried to fathom it with all their might, they could never grasp Buddha's wisdom. Now you are leading ordinary people to nothing other than a realization of their own minds and are calling it the Buddha's insight. Unless we have superior capacity, we cannot help doubting and surrendering you. Also, the Sutra mentions three kinds of carriages. What is the difference between the great ox cart and the white ox cart?

[60:53]

Master, please give me your explanation once more." So Huinan said, we should study this Buddha's insight or Buddha's darsana. within as our own mind. That means not only Buddha's mind, like each one of us has mind, so we have to study and realize that mind, our mind, not Buddha's mind. So this question is about that statement. And the question is, you know, the Lotus Sutra said, you know, even those great Shravakas, great disciples of Buddha could not understand this Buddha's darshanah.

[62:00]

Shakyamuni said, only Buddha together with Buddha, you know, they could fathom or penetrate this Buddha darshan. But Hinan said, we should see our minds, our ordinary mind. How such a thing is possible? How can we see the Buddha darshan, Buddha's insight, by seeing our mind? You know, we are deluded beings. That was one question. That is, in the second sentence, you are leading ordinary people to nothing other than a realization of our own minds, and according it is the Buddha's insight. So Huynhan said, to see our mind is to see Buddha's darshan.

[63:04]

Why is such a thing possible? And another question is, this is in the third chapter of the Lotus Sutra. said those three vikus refer to shravaka viku, pratyeka buddha viku, and bodhisattva vikus. And Mahayana people said shravaka and pratyeka buddhas are small vikus. And bodhisattva viku is Mahayana, that means large viku. but they are all in the burning house of the samsara. And Buddha kind of asked them to get out from that burning house to do so because those children are enjoying playing within the burning house.

[64:16]

Buddha said, if you get out, I will give you better toys you can enjoy." And those are those three vehicles. And because of that teaching from Shakyamuni or the father, those children playing in the burning house get out. And those children ask, give me, give me those toys. then somehow they didn't find any of those toys. But the father or Buddha only gave the one big carriage pulled by the white ox. So those three vehicles or three toys are not real thing, but only thing Buddha gave to all living beings, all the children.

[65:22]

get came out of the burning house is this one big cart, put it by this white ox. So the question is, what is the difference between this boy sativa viku and one Buddha viku? And this is a kind of an important question in Chinese Buddhism. You know, some Chinese masters who studied Lotus Sutra think the Mahayana or Bodhisattvayana within the three vehicles and the large vehicle, one vehicle teaching, Buddha's vehicle, is the same, both Mahayana teaching. But some masters said that those sattva vehicles within the three vehicles and one Buddha vehicle are different.

[66:36]

And in Tendai tradition, because of Tendai-chi-i, said those are different vehicles. So there are four vehicles instead of three. That means the bodhisattva vehicle within three vehicles are kind of a... As I talked before, kind of criticize those two vehicles, people. So in that sense, those three vehicles are separate. from two vehicles, and they say, our vehicle is better than you, yours. In that sense, in that voice-over vehicle, two other vehicles are excluded. So that is not really one vehicle. So one vehicle needs to include all those three vehicles.

[67:43]

That's why the bodhisattva vehicles in three vehicles are different from one to the vehicles. That is at least conclusion in Tendai tradition. and Dogen studied Buddhism within Tendai tradition, so that is Dogen's understanding. Anyway, that is the point of this person's question to Huinam. Then Huinam gave the answer. The ancestor, Huinan, said, the meaning in the sutra is clear. You have confused yourself and fallen into doubt. That means, you know, in the older version of the same conversation, Huinan said to this person's father that father means dharma penetration.

[68:49]

And Huinan said to this person, dharma is penetrated. but only your mind is confused. Your mind is not penetrated. This is the same thing. So that question is only your problem. It's not a problem of the dharma itself. And Heunan continues, When all those in the three vehicles, including Bodhisattva vehicles, failed to fathom the Buddha's wisdom, The problem lies in their measuring and discriminating. Measuring and discriminating is... Do-ryo. both to measure. And is a kind of a degree.

[69:57]

For example, a Japanese word for temperature is is a Japanese word for temperature. So means degree, or means warmness. So ondori, or temperature, means the degree of how warm it is. Anyway, so doryo means to measure things. So what Hina is saying is they couldn't understand the Buddha's darsana because they are thinking and measuring. even if they join effort, thinking and servicing together to their utmost, they will go further and further astray from the Buddha's wisdom.

[71:02]

So this is kind of a criticism against those you know, teachers who discussed about what is written in the sutras. Scholars. So scholars or people in the teaching schools from Zen point of view, no matter how much we discuss and think and how much, how can I say, write about what this means, we cannot reach the reality itself. So in that sense, this part of Buddhism is like a mystic, mystical. Reality cannot be reached with words and letters or thinking and concept or discrimination. But still they use a lot of words and letters.

[72:05]

They mean Buddhist. I mean, what you said right before, they mean what is, what was the part you said just before that? I mean, it's nothing like that. I'll be there soon. you know, this part is like to be mystical. After that or before that? I said, but they use, they mean, Buddhists use lot of words. Lot of. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So the more we think, the more we get far from that reality. The Buddha originally expanded the three vehicles only for the sake of ordinary people. He didn't expand them for the sake of Buddhas. This is the answer to the question, why to realize our mind can be Buddha's darsana.

[73:13]

Dogen, not Dogen, but Shoinai is saying Buddha taught to ordinary beings. He didn't teach to Buddhas. So what Buddha is talking about is our mind, our reality of our life, not someone beyond ordinary living beings. So to study and awaken to the reality of our life. including our mind, is Buddha's darsana. So Buddha's darsana is not beyond our mind. So to really see and understand our mind, then that is Buddha's insight. Expound. Expound. Setsu means to express, explain, or to sometimes translate as to preach, to talk about.

[74:39]

So what Buddha said in the Lotus Sutra is about the mind or life of our ordinary beings. And Huynhan said, some of them, or probably you are one of them, not believing this principle, left their seat in the assembly, like 5,000 people. That's OK. If you want to live, just live. Still, they did not know that while sitting in the white ox carriage, they were looking for the three kinds of carriages outside the gate. That means even those people who left, those 5,000 people who left the assembly, is still in this vehicle. So even if you doubt this and you don't believe this and you blame me, still you are within the big vehicle.

[76:00]

So no one can be excluded. Even we say, I'm not there, still you are there. because the sutra clearly states that there are neither two nor three carriages, only one. So even we reject, you know, I don't care about three vehicles, I have my own vehicles. But still, such people are still included in this vehicle. And next, about the three vehicles for the same or difference between both Sattva-jana and the one Buddha vehicle. Said, the three kinds of carriages are expedient means. because they were expounded in the past.

[77:02]

The one vehicle is real, because it belongs to the present. This past and present, I think, means what is said in the chapter 2. of the Lotus Sutra as a skillful means. You know, when Buddha talks about how he made the skillful means, talks about three vehicles as a skillful means, when he said something like, He said, the reason, not he, but this is Buddha, the reason why the Tathagata appears is for preaching the Buddha wisdom, this Buddha darshan, the real teaching of one bhikkhu.

[78:17]

Buddha wisdom now is the very time. Buddha said, now is the very time, means so far I have been talking about the skillful means, talking about three vehicles as a skillful means, but now, he said, now is the very time I have to talk about one Buddha vehicle. So I stopped talking about three vehicles. Now is the time. the same thing is similar thing is said a little after this said in the same fashion that the buddhas past present and future preach the dharma so also will i now proclaim the undivided law And undivided dharma means three vehicles are divided.

[79:25]

Undivided dharma is one vehicle. So now is the time I need to expound this one vehicle beyond any separation. I think Fathuna is talking about this time, now. And what he meant now is not only At that time, Shakyamuni said this on the Vulture Peak. But now, this moment, whenever it is, this moment is the time we see the undivided dharma. This is the only time we don't need to think about the past. This is the time we have to see or awaken to undivided dharma. Page 74.

[80:29]

So I am only trying to make you leave behind expedient means or skillful means, that is three vehicles, and return to the real, means one undivided, absolute reality or truth. And when we return to reality, reality is not a mere name. That means name can be forgotten. You know, this name is still a name. That means truth or reality or genuine is still dualistic. Truth is relative with false. And absolute is relative with relative, relativity. And one vehicle is relative with three vehicles.

[81:43]

So when we return to this one undivided dharma, we can forget about even this word of truth or reality or absolute or one vehicle. Just be there. And he continued, You should know that all beings, without exception, are rare treasures, and they all belong to you. Let me read a few more sentences. Receiving and making use of them is up to you. It is neither the father's thought nor the thinking of the children, and there is no thought of using it. This is why it is called the Dharma Flower Sutra.

[82:45]

From kalpa to kalpa, from day to night, even when we are not holding the sutra in our hands, there is no time when we are not reciting it. You know, this father, this treasure, He said, everything, all beings, without exception, are rare treasures. These treasures, of course, it means everything is treasure. Everything is precious. And they all belong to you. You know, probably this came from the parable appeared in the fourth chapter, chapter four. of the pure, rich father and a poor son who left father's home and wandered here and there.

[83:53]

And he had a very difficult time, and he returned to his father's home. home and his father as expedient means give him a job working to clean the dirties and father encouraged him to work diligently and he the son worked for his father for 20 years and he learned more and more important jobs. And right before his father passed away, his father said, this is my son. And all the treasures or wealth I have, is him from now. Then the son said, even though I didn't expect this treasure house is open and come to me.

[85:00]

That is the story. So this treasure means the treasure, the poor son's treasure given, inherited from his father. But until then, until he didn't think his father's wealth is his own, even though he works for keeping his father's wealth as a servant or a manager. but he didn't think that those wealth was his own. But then father said, you are my real son, so all the wealth I have is yours. That is what I think Shuinai is talking about. So the treasure, all the treasures owned by Buddha is ours.

[86:02]

And this means, I think, in our life, this treasure, I mean, this entire network of interdependent origination. And as Uchiyama Roshi said, when we are born, we are born together with our entire world. And when we are living, we live together with all beings within this entire world. And when we die, we die together with all beings, with this entire world. So this entire world in which we are part of this interconnectedness is this person's wealth. Of course, not only my wealth, but everyone's. Everyone of us owns or live together with entire world. So we are the owner of this entire network.

[87:08]

That means this is a network of interdependent origination or Indra's net. We are part of this thread, or knot, and everything is connected with everything. And the only thing actually there is a relation of the thread. There is no such independent entity called a knot. A knot is how all different threads get together, and works, that is our life, our personal life. So there's no such fixed entity called the shohaku. But only thing is the elements, all different kind of elements. So there is no such individual self or entity.

[88:11]

That is what no self means. And because there is no such individual entity, only thing there is relation or connection. Because of that, this entire network is the self. Does this make sense? So self is this entirety of interconnectedness. So this entire network is me. And everything in there is my son or children. That is what Buddha said, you know, this entire three world is myself and all beings within that world is my children. That is what Buddha said and I think not only Buddha but each one of us is the same. You know, this is myself.

[89:13]

and all beings within this interconnectedness is me. And at the center of this interconnectedness I have responsibility. to keep this in harmony, in a healthy condition. Not only this individual body and mind, but we have to at least try to, or make effort, to make this interconnectedness in a healthy and harmonious condition. That is our practice as a Doshisattva. Roshi, in the ten suchnesses, number five through nine are relationship. Number one through five are individual. Uniqueness. Uniqueness.

[90:14]

But you were just saying that it's all relationship. What is number one through five in the context of this? That is, form, function, nature, et cetera. You know, each knot has different shape, different condition, different nature, different form, different energy. So I am a connection of all different elements, and you are the connection of different elements. So each knot, even though they are the only connection or relation, but because of that, each knot are different, unique. Aggregation. Yes. Because I was born in Japan, my English is strange. I'm thinking in Japanese, I'm speaking in English.

[91:16]

This is my uniqueness. This is my karma. And we have different karmas. So we are each different, and yet we are connected with all beings. The way connected or what kind of element are connected is different. That is the uniqueness of each being, I think. OK, please. might contain change, but it just sounds exactly like Atman, everything we were discussing yesterday. Atman. Well, probably you have that question because I draw this circle.

[92:16]

Actually, this circle is not there. In order to show this is a net, like an Indra's net, I'm sorry, but I wrote this circle. But actually, there's no such circle. You know, the idea of Indra's net appears in the Avatamsaka Sutra. And the sutra says Indra has a palace and Indra has a beautiful ornament of net. That is what Indra's net means. And Indra's net has infinite. throughout time and space. That means even though this Indra's net is placed in Indra's palace, but Indra's palace is part of this net.

[93:27]

And infinite means there's no such boundary inside and outside. If we there you think there is a boundary and this entirety is reality, then we could interpret this is a Brahman or Atman. But so important point is we need to erase this circle. Only relation are there. I think even this entire universe is a part of something larger. I don't think this universe has boundary. Does this make sense?

[94:31]

It makes sense. Well, it's already 1135. Anyway, what Huyen Anh is saying here is we are not a father, we are not a child. There's no such separation even between father and child. And even we cannot say, I use this or I own these treasures. But we are part of the treasures. So from kalpa to kalpa means kalpa to kalpa is a long period of time. And day to night is our day to day usual length of time we can handle and in which we are living. So that means always. Even when we are not holding the sutras in our hands, this means rota sutra, there is no time when we are not reciting it.

[95:43]

That means even when we don't read this particular sutra, we are reciting the sutra. Does it make sense? I think it's the same as what you described before, the great heart and the ox heart. The people that left are still in the White House. Does it have the same meaning? I think so. Even if we don't read, we are still reading. Please. Please. line where it says you should know that all beings without exception are rare treasures and they all belong to you is the father speaking to the son that's returned and then receiving and making use of them is up to you and then the next line there's no thought of using it how do you receiving and making use of them is up to you how are we to understand that is that the father speaking to the child

[96:49]

I think Srinath is speaking to this monk. That means... Srinath is speaking to father, saying, receiving and making use of them is up to you? I think this you is father. Huna is talking to father and everything is your position. Whether you make this samsara or nirvana is up to you. Whether you use this as the place to fulfill our personal desire, or to make this place as a practice place to offer or to make offering or contribution to help others. It's up to really you. So how are we to understand the next line where it says, and there is no thought of using it?

[97:51]

Actually, there's no such separation between owner and possessions. So we cannot say, I use this because I is a part of that treasure. So actually there's no possession and no person who possess. I think that is what Q9 is saying here. Okay. Can I read one, two more paragraphs and end this conversation? It's not important, I think. Having received this edification, father jumped with joy and presented this verse of praise. So finally he understood and he wrote his own verse. 3,000 recitations of the sutra have disappeared with a single phrase from Kaoshi.

[98:59]

Kaoshi means Huinan. So he said, I have been reciting the Lotus Sutra 3,000 times, but because of Huinan's teaching, I forget everything. Unless we clarify the meaning of Buddha's appearance in the world, that is what Huynhan said, Buddha's appearance in the world is when we practice. How can we end the madness accumulated over many lifetimes? So become free from our karmic delusion. We have to see who we really are. Then the sutra made up the expedient of sheep, deer, and ox carriages, kama, please make it kama, as I said before, to be well lifted up to the higher level of meaning, early, middle, and late.

[100:00]

That means, you know, there are the kind of a process Buddha taught. First, three vehicles, or two vehicles, and three vehicles, and finally the one vehicle, one great vehicle. That is beginning, middle, and end. all express this reality of interconnectedness. So who is aware that even within the burning house, originally the dharma king is there? So as I said in the very first lecture, the basic problem is this duality between worldly dharma, in which we are transmigrating within six realms, and nirvana, where we are free from or beyond the transmigration or beyond duality.

[101:14]

How can we go beyond this duality, between duality and beyond duality? And what this monk said is there's no such division or separation between burning house, that is samsara, and out of burning house is nirvana. But he says king of dharma, dharma king, is there within, light within burning house. That is how he understood the oneness or non-duality. So there's no such two separate places called samsara and nirvana, or duality and non-duality. But we need to see the nirvana right within samsara, and we need to see the non-duality right within duality.

[102:27]

That is, I think, the understanding of this monk father when he received the teaching from Yunnan. Well, I hope you—well, one more sentence. being presented this verse that my ancestor said, from now on you can be called the sutra reciting monk. So you keep reciting the sutra, but not only with his mouth. I'm sorry I talk too long.

[103:15]

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