You are currently logged-out. You can log-in or create an account to see more talks, save favorites, and more.
2010.08.07-serial.00124
The talk explores the theme of "Ocean Seal Samadhi" as presented in the Buddhist tradition, particularly in Dogen Zenji's works, and its symbolic representation of meditation practice. It begins with a children's story illustrating challenges in maintaining silence, tying into broader teachings on ego and self-awareness. This narrative segues into the study of the eight virtues of the ocean as outlined in the Pali Nikaya and their parallels to the qualities of the Buddhist Sangha. These virtues emphasize gradual training, stability, purity, absence of cast distinctions, constancy, taste of liberation, the presence of precious teachings, and the domain of great beings. The talk concludes by reflecting on the integration of sudden and gradual enlightenment within Dogen Zenji's teachings.
Referenced Works and Authors:
- Dogen Zenji's Shobo Genzo, "Kai-in-Zanmai" (Ocean Seal Samadhi): Dogen's interpretation of meditation's reflective quality, likened to the ocean's calm surface.
- Pali Nikaya: Contains Buddha's teachings on the ocean's virtues, which are applied to describe the Sangha's qualities.
- Sawaki Kodo Roshi: Occasionally recounted the story of novice monks, highlighting subtleties of ego and self-awareness.
- Anguttara Nikaya: Records a dialogue between Buddha and the chief of Asura, emphasizing the attributes of the ocean and Sangha.
- Avatamsaka Sutra (Kegon Sutra) and Mahayana Parinirvana Sutra: Influence Mahayana interpretations of the ocean's and Sangha's qualities.
- Ehe Korok by Dogen Zenji: Discusses the analogy of the frog in the ocean, illustrating the broad perspective gained through Sangha practice.
- Sandokai by Sekito Kisen: A text referring to the non-differentiation between sudden and gradual enlightenment in Zen teachings.
Themes and Concepts:
- Sudden vs. Gradual Enlightenment: The discussion raises questions about the validity of this distinction in Zen practice.
- Eight Virtues of the Ocean: Paralleled with attributes of the Sangha to underscore ethical and spiritual principles.
- Ego and Self-Awareness: Explored through narrative storytelling and traditional teachings.
AI Suggested Title: Ocean's Wisdom in Zen Practice
Good morning everyone. I'm really happy to be here and to talk about Buddha's teaching. Jordan emailed me before I came that this morning we have some young people, children. So first few minutes I have to talk to the children. So I brought one book, Buddhist book for children and read a very short story. I hope You like this story. This is an interesting story about silence. Children are not always good at being silent.
[01:04]
And this is about the children or kid monks. They are studying how to be silent. So there are four boys. They are novice monks. The title of this story is Learning to be Silent. A group of four friends were all studying meditation. So as a novice monk in Buddhism, they had to study meditation. And of course, when we practice meditation, they need to be silent. But it's one of the most difficult things for young people. But they are very good monks, all sincere boys.
[02:09]
So they decided in order to clear their minds, so they made their decision by themselves, not be ordered by their teachers. They decided to clear their mind, to take a vow of silence. and not talk for seven days. So they decided to have a seven-day session without any talk. It must be very difficult to practice for them. And this happened that the first day, the first day they meditated all day without saying a word. So they're very good novice monks. They didn't speak anything for one entire day.
[03:12]
But when night fell, so it become dark, and the oil lamp In the meditation hall grew dim. One of the friends whispered to a servant, so they had an oil lamp, and when it has some wind or something, it doesn't work well. So one of the boys said, take care of those lamps to the servant. Then one of the others shocked to hear his friend speaking. So that was the first speaking. Then next person shocked to hear that his friend speak something.
[04:15]
So the second person said, ''You are not supposed to be talking.'' That is the second person talking. And the third one was overcome with irritation. And he said, you idiots. He said, why did you talk? So he accused those two friends, you spoke, you are not good. And by saying that, the person also spoke. And there's one other, one, know the boys, and he said, I am the only one who hasn't talked. All those three talked, but I don't talk.
[05:21]
That was the final person said. said the fourth friend, smiling proudly. That's the end of the story. I hope you like this story. Now, if you wish, you can leave. And you can talk as much as you want. This story was in this book, is retold by the author of this book, but this original story was from a collection of Buddhist stories, I think compiled by the Japanese monk who was, I think, a contemporary of Dogen Zenji.
[06:45]
And Sawaki Kodo Roshi, my teacher's teacher, not often, but sometimes told about this story. And in the original version, these are not about boys. These are about very experienced practitioners, almost elders. And Sawakiroshi told this story about how deep and subtle our ego clinging might be. And we can see other people's fault, but we don't see our own fault. Anyway, this story has something to do with what we are going to study during this Genzoe on Kai-in-Zanmai, or Ocean Seal Samadhi. And this chapter of Shobo Genzo, Kai in Zanmai, is very difficult.
[07:52]
So I tried to study about this teaching of Kai in Zanmai, not in Dogen Zenji's writing, but in the context of Buddhism. And while I was studying, I had a question about the ocean. I mean, my question was, did Shakyamuni Buddha see the ocean or not? He was born in Nepal and he went down to central India, that is Magadha or Kosala, and he travelled extensively. But as far as I know, in Buddha's biography there's no evidence that Buddha reached the ocean.
[08:54]
So first question, I think this is an interesting question, did Buddha see ocean or not? If Buddha didn't see the ocean, maybe he didn't teach about the ocean. But in the process of my searching, I found there are several teachings about the ocean in Pali Nikaya. So that was interesting. When Buddhism, you know, encounter with ocean, and what this ocean means, that was the starting point of my study on Dogen Zenji's Ocean Seal Samadhi. The meaning of this word, ocean seal, seal is like a stamp. When you have a stamp and some ink and put on certain paper or something, then exactly what is on the stamp is copied on the paper.
[10:02]
That is what this ocean seal means. That means when there are strong winds, Ocean has big waves. But when the wind become calm and the waves become peaceful, then everything is reflected as they are on the surface of the ocean. And that is one of the analogy or symbol of our meditation practice. When our mind calms down and there's not so much waves, then everything can be reflected as they are. That is what ocean seal and samadhi means. Anyway, I'd like to one pari-stha about the ocean.
[11:11]
And this is a conversation between Shakyamuni Buddha and one, it said, chief of Asura. Ashura is one of the six realms of samsara. And it's originally the name of God. But here it seems like Ashura was some native Indian people who had lived even before the Indo-Aryan came to India. So it's a kind of minorities. Anyway, these people called Ashura were familiar with the ocean, and they loved the ocean. So probably they lived by the coast. So Buddha asked the chief of Ashura, this is from Anguttara Nikaya,
[12:20]
Buddha asked to the chief of Asura, I suppose the person's name is Pahalada. The Asuras find delight in the great ocean. So you people really love the ocean. And the chief said, they do. And Buddha said, now how many wonderful and marvelous qualities do the asuras again and again perceive in the great ocean? so that they take delight in it." So why, what kind of good quality of the ocean do those Asura people like, love the ocean? And the person said, there are eight characteristics, eight great virtues of the ocean.
[13:30]
And after the person mentioned those eight virtues of the ocean, Buddha said, no, not Buddha said, but the Asura king asked Buddha, what is a great quality, wonderful quality of Buddha's teaching and practice? So Buddha repeated what the Asura king said about the ocean and compared with the virtue of the Buddhist Sangha. To me, this is really important for us to understand what is the quality and the characteristic of Buddhist Sangha. And we need to make effort how to create such a community.
[14:39]
So those eight points are really important. And some of them might not work in our community in the 21st century. But anyway, it's important to know what Buddha spoke about the quality of Buddhist community. Using the analogy of the virtue of ocean and this... influence to Mahayana Buddhist sutras. And it appeared in the Kegon or Avatamsaka Sutra. And it became the origin of this teaching of ocean seal samadhi. So it's related all to the dogma and to us. Anyway, so I'd like to introduce those eight great virtues of ocean and also the Buddhist Sangha.
[15:47]
So the king of Ashura said, I support, Lord, the monks take delight in this dharma and discipline. And Buddha said, they do. But how many wonderful and marvelous qualities do the monks again and again perceive in this dharma and discipline? By reason of which they take delight in it. And Buddha talks, mentioned those eight qualities. And the first is, just as a great ocean slopes away gradually, so it gradually becomes deep, falls gradually, inclines gradually, not in an abrupt way like a precipice, even so, even so,
[17:05]
is this dharma and discipline. There is a gradual training, gradual training, gradual practice, gradual progress. There is no... penetration to final knowledge in an abrupt way. So Buddhist practice has a gradual method, some practice for beginners, and it can get deeper and deeper to the experienced people. So there's no such abrupt, like, jumping. It can go, you know, gradually. And second is, just as the great ocean is stable and does not overflow its boundaries,
[18:13]
So no matter how much water came in from different rivers, water never overflow. I mean, ocean never overflow. Even so, when I have made known a rule of training, this is about Vinaya Precept, Buddha made some certain rules for the monks to follow. then a rule of training to my disciples, they will not transgress it even for life's sake. So members of the Sangha, in this case monks, never overflow. That means they follow Buddha's rules or precepts Buddha set up. That is the second virtue. And the third one has something to do with Shobo Genzo Kaiinzanmai.
[19:19]
That is, just as the great ocean will not tolerate a dead body, a corpse, but quickly carried it to the shore and cast it on to the land. So it said, ocean, if there is some dead body, the dead body go to the shore and get out of the ocean and stay in the shore. So ocean doesn't keep the dead body of anyone. And even so, the Sangha will not tolerate, the Sangha community of Buddhists will not tolerate within its ranks a person who is immoral, of bad character, of impure and suspicious conduct, secretive in his action,
[20:31]
Not a true ascetic, but rather a sham ascetic. Not chaste, but pretending to be chaste. Rotten to the core. Lustful and of vile behavior. In such a case, the Sangha quickly assembles and expels such a person. even if seated in the midst of the monks' assembly, yet he is far from the Sangha, and the Sangha is far from him. So this means if some monks did something against the so-called four biological precepts, they have to be expelled. They cannot stay in the Sangha. So this is like our ocean put the dead body to the land.
[21:38]
So the ocean and also Buddhist Sambha has a power or ability to keep it clean or pure. There's a koan story about this saying of the sutra. And in Chinese Zen, the masters changed the meaning of this. So that is one point of Dogen's Kai in Zen Mai. And four, just as the mighty rivers on reaching the great ocean lose their former names, and designations and are just reckoned as the great ocean. That means there are waters from different rivers. In the case of India, Ganges River, Indus River, and many other rivers.
[22:44]
And the water came from different rivers, much smaller rivers, but once it enter into the ocean. There's no such separation. And this is what Buddha is saying here. When Even so, when members of the four castes in Indian society, there are four castes, that is, nobles, brahmins, commoners, and menhirs. So there are different classes in the society. But when anyone who came from any classes, once they enter the Buddhist Sangha, they are treated as equal. There's no such discrimination.
[23:48]
That is another virtue of Buddhist Sangha. So, go forth from home into the homeless life in this Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata. They lose their former names and lineage. and are reckoned only as ascetics, following the son of the Shakya, that means Buddha's child. So all Buddhist monks are called Shakya. So family, our family name is all Shakya. There's no other names. And Buddha said, this is the fourth wonderful and marvelous quality in this Dhamma and this discipline.
[24:52]
Fifth, just as in the great ocean, neither a decrease nor an increase will appear though all the streams of the world flow into it. and rain falls into it from the sky. So it never decrease or increase. Even so, even if many monks attain final Nirvana, I'm sorry, Nirvana in Bali, in the Nirvana element that is without residue left, there is no decrease. or increase in the nirvana element that is without residue left. So no matter how many people attain nirvana, nirvana doesn't increase or decrease because it's not a matter of quantity.
[26:01]
It's a matter of quality. And next is six. Just as the great ocean has but one taste, the taste of salt. So whichever part of the ocean, the taste of the ocean water is the same. It's always salty everywhere. but one taste. That taste, even so, this Dhamma and this spring has but one taste. That means, whichever sangha and whatever part of the sangha, all the parts have only one same taste. That's a good sound. And the taste of liberation.
[27:06]
So we have to make sure in our Sangha if we have the taste of one taste, one single taste of liberation or not. If we have different tastes, then we have to be careful. This taste came into the Sangha. That is one of the very important qualities of Buddhist Sangha. So this is the taste of revelation, the taste of Dharma. This is the sixth and seventh. Just as in the great ocean, There are many and variegated precious substances, such as pearls, gems, etc. There are many beautiful, precious things in the ocean.
[28:13]
So in this Dharma and discipline, there is much that is precious. There are many precious things in the practice of the Sangha. And those are These are the precious things in it. That is the full foundation of mindfulness. This is a meditation practice in Theravada, still practice. The four right efforts, the four basis of success, the five spiritual faculties, the five spiritual powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, and the noble eightfold path. Those are all practice, Buddhist practice. And those are the precious gems or pearls, ocean embraces.
[29:16]
So we have to make sure we have that kind of precious practice, teaching and practice and activities in our community. So there are many precious things in the Sangha. And finally, eighth virtue of the Buddhist Sangha is Just as the great ocean is the abode of vast creatures, that means there are many kinds of fishes. And not only fishes, but Indian ancient people thought dragons lived in the ocean. So huge, great living beings lived in the ocean.
[30:23]
Even so is this Dhamma and discipline the domain of great beings. So great people are living within the Sangha. And those are the stream enterer and one practicing for the realization of the fruits of stream entry. The once-returner and one practicing for the realization of the fruits of one returning the non-returner, and one practicing for the realization of the fruits of non-returning, the arhat, and one practicing for arhatship. So these are the monks who are in those four stages of development or practice. Those are the great beings living within the Sangha.
[31:31]
Of course, in the Mahayana Buddhism, or Zen Buddhism is part of Mahayana, we have different systems or stages of practice. And especially in Soto Zen tradition, there's no such stages, essentially. Conventionally, there are. But not only those kind of stages, but people in the Sangha should be all great beings, great people. And that is why traditionally in Zen lineage, we call the assembly of the Sangha as Dai Shu. The monks are called Dai Shu. Dai means great, and Shu means assembly or people. So great assembly. So not only experienced people in certain advanced stage, but all people living in the Sangha must be great people.
[32:51]
And great people means, Dogen Zenji mentioned very interesting analogy about what this great means. And in Asia, we have a kind of analogy that we are like a frog torn in the well, living in the bottom of the well. We are living in such a small, you know, hole. So we only see the tiny part of the sky, but still we think we see the entire sky. And that is an analogy of a small being like us. But Dogen Zenji in Ehe Korok, he said, people living in the sangha is like a frog or toad living in the ocean.
[33:53]
Of course, there's no such frog, really. But this is, you know, we are like a frog. But when we are living in the ocean, in the Buddhist Sangha, we are like the frog living in the ocean. That means we don't only view the way we see. But we study more broader perspective of the reality by studying Buddha's teaching and also living and practicing with other people and letting go of our small views, small limited views. By living in this way, we cannot be self-centered. We cannot be like a frog in the well. So even though we are limited conditions, living beings like a frog, still when we live in the sangha and practice with other people, we are like a frog in the ocean.
[35:12]
That is what great beings, I think, means in our tradition. So those eight points are Buddha's teaching about the quality of the ocean and quality of the Sangha. And this teaching looks very interesting and important. So Mahayana Buddhist also take this teaching to define the quality of Buddhist Sangha or monastic practice. And the same teaching appeared in the Avatamsaka Sutra and also the Mahayana Parinirvana Sutra. And the ocean seal samadhi become the names of samadhis in which Buddha,
[36:30]
is dwelling when he preached the Apatamsaka Sutra. That is the origin of this Samadhi, Kai-in-Zanmai, or Ocean Seal Samadhi. So we are like a frog in the ocean. And when our mind calm down by practicing, studying Dharma and practicing meditation and living, following Buddha's precept. We are like the great beings in the ocean, living peacefully. That is the very basic meaning of this ocean seal samadhi. So ocean seal samadhi is Buddha's samadhi, but also we are part of that samadhi.
[37:38]
Well, it's eleven o'clock. Any questions or comments? Please. Okay. Number two is number two and number five, right? Two and five. Number two is just as the great ocean is stable and does not overflow. its boundaries, so that ocean keep the boundaries. So when I have made known a rule of training, so when Buddha set up certain precept, no monks or member of the Sangha never get out of that boundary.
[38:50]
like our ocean is always within the boundary that is the means of the second virtue and the fifth is just as in the great ocean, neither are decreased nor are increased. So the level of ocean water is never decreased or increased. Actually, it seems it is increasing now. Yes. And that is a human problem caused by human beings, but not by the water's fault, but our fault. But in nature, the ocean keeps the same level of the water. And... will appear through all the streams of the world, flow into it, and rain falls into it from the sky.
[39:58]
So the two virtues, number two and number five, are not so different. But in the case of number five, no matter how much water comes in from outside, the water level of ocean doesn't increase or decrease. So there's some little subtle difference, I think. Okay. Please. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I think it was in Japanese, but there's a book entitled Why We Don't See Dead Body in the Ocean.
[41:04]
The ocean is always clear, always clean. There's an unless there's certain disaster like an oil, you know, perfect on the ocean. You know, we don't see so many dead bodies, even though there are, you know, numerous living beings living in the ocean. And we sometimes see dead bodies on the beach. So maybe ancient people think ocean did not tolerate the dead body and put them out of the ocean. I think that makes sense. Please. Please. I would immediately think more impermanence.
[42:10]
I don't think a dead vow is something bad or immoral. But in this case, the monks who didn't or who cannot, you know, when people become Buddhist monks, they have to receive the precept. That means they take a vow to follow the precept. And these are about four most serious precepts, that is like killing, stealing, telling a lie, false speech, and sexual misdeed, any sexual activities for monks. And so when people received the precept and became a Buddhist monk, they take that vow. And even though they took the vow, that means they make a pledge that I follow this precept.
[43:26]
Not only those four, there are more than 200 precepts. Others are so-called minor precepts. And if those monks commit some misdeed against those four paralogical precepts, they have to be expelled. In this case, I think Buddhist monks thought the person is already dead. when they commit those four Paraschka precepts. I think that is what it meant. Okay. Please. Oh, okay. Who is that? Thank you. So one of the qualities described is that the ocean is gradual.
[44:29]
But on the other hand, our understanding is no different. So what do you say? Well, gradual and sudden is a tricky thing. There's nothing sudden and nothing gradual, I think. That is what Dogen points out. In Chinese Zen, the separation between sudden enlightenment and gradual enlightenment is really important. It separates two schools, southern and northern schools. You know, for example, Sekito Kisen, the person who wrote Sandokai, said that in the Dharma there's no southern or northern ancestors.
[45:42]
That means there's no such criterion, separation between southern and gradual, I think. So, you know, there are certain people who, you know, cannot study and practice so quickly. And of course, among Buddha's disciples, there are certain very brilliant people like Shaliputra. But there are other disciples who are not so talented. But Buddha gave a kind of a skillful means. So, even though, you know, I forget the person's name in Sanskrit, but in Japanese, the person's name is Shuri Handoku, who is intellectually not talented.
[46:55]
So he couldn't even memorize any Buddha's teachings. So Buddha told him, give him his practice that clean something. And by cleaning things day after day, the person, it said, attained arhat-hood. So for that person, that is, I think, sudden innocence. Same as Shariputra. So sudden or gradual can be depending upon the personality or person's characters or quality. And we cannot say, you know, Shariputra is really better than that, you know, not so talented person. So to me, it's really difficult to make a distinction between gradual and sudden.
[48:00]
What do you think? Okay. Oh, okay. Oh. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he is a representative of sudden enlightenment. That is another point we are going to study in Kain's mind. What is Dogen's position? I don't think he is gradual. And his teaching is not sudden, neither. I think he's questioning the validity of that separation between sudden and gradual.
[49:07]
For him, reality is only right now, right here. Sudden and gradual is in terms of the flow of time. how long does it take or how short the person can attain enlightenment. But what Dogen is discussing in Kain Zammai is the quality of right now, right here. It's not a matter of in the future how long you have to practice or how short you can attain enlightenment. So we'll study about that point. Okay, thank you very much.
[49:48]
@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_92.9