and he made comments on this person's statement. Zen Master Ying-an Tang-Hua, in Japanese pronunciation, O-an Dong-ge, once instructed the Honorable Monk Da-De-Hui, saying, If you wish to understand easily, simply face arising mind and moving thought throughout 12 hours. Just following these moving thoughts right there, you suddenly clearly see that there is nothing to gain, like the great empty space. Also, the empty space has neither shape nor boundary.

[01:08]

Inside and outside are one reality. Both wisdom and its object disappear. Both reality and understanding of it are eliminated. Three times past, present and future are all equal. Those who have reached such a field are called a person of the three-ing way who has nothing to study and none doing. Dogen's comment, these are phrases uttered by the old man, using his entire strength. It seems that he is simply chasing the shadows and never knew resting.

[02:09]

When inside and outside are not one, is the Buddha Dharma not there? Fat is inside and fat is outside. Also, empty space has both shape and boundary, is the utterance of the Buddha ancestors. Fat is the empty space. I suppose that Ng'an has not yet known what the empty space is. He does not see the empty space. He has not yet grasped the empty space. He has not yet struck the empty space. He mentions arising mind and moving thoughts. There is a principle that the mind does not move.

[03:16]

How is there arising mind within 12 hours? The mind cannot enter into 12 hours. The 12 hours does not come into the 12 minds. How is it possible for the mind to arise? What are the moving thoughts? Do the thoughts move or not move? Or do they not move or not not move? What is the moving like? And what is the not moving like? What does he call thoughts? Do thoughts exist within 12 hours? Do 12 hours exist within thoughts? Do they exist when there are no dichotomies? He said that it is easy to understand if we simply facing arising mind and moving thought within 12 hours.

[04:20]

What shall we understand easily? Does he mean we can easily understand the way of Buddha ancestors? If so, The Buddha way is neither easy to understand nor difficult to understand. That is why Nanyue or Nangaku and Janshi or Kosei engaged in the wholehearted practice of the way under the guidance of their teachers for many years. He said, suddenly clearly see that there is nothing to gain. he has not yet seen the way of Buddha ancestors even in a dream. How can a person with such inferior capability wish to understand easily? I can judge that he has not yet fully investigated the great way of Buddha ancestors.

[05:23]

If Buddhadharma were as he said, how could it have reached until today? So he made a kind of heavy criticism against this person. And I don't really understand. why he picked up this person, this thing in the context of this writing about true reality of all beings. Before previous section, he criticized the idea of identity of three teachings. And if this person is mentioned about that idea, there's some meaning that Dogen needs to criticize this person's saying. But he didn't say anything about those three teachings. And I don't think this person's statement, sayings, is especially wonderful, but I don't see any mistake.

[06:36]

Maybe it's not perfect from Dogen's point of view, but I don't think it's mistaken. So why Dogen picked up these sayings of this person and made such a severe criticism, I don't really understand. So if you have some idea, please give me. Please. Dogen wrote a lot of stuff. So I think, you know, just numbers games, it's not good. Do you think so? So he wrote too much, and he didn't remember. Well, maybe one possibility is there's some kind of twisted karma. You know, even though he criticized... Well, later, after that, he compared this person and the Chinese, the master, he met his age.

[07:57]

So Owen was about 60 years old. before Dogen went to China. And he said, oh, and this person is much better than those Zen masters he met. So he doesn't at least praise this person. Well, he does praise him later, but he says maybe by now he's got rid of him. That means when he was the abbot of that monastery, he wasn't. I don't know, to me it seems it's confusing because, I don't know, it seems like he's going out of his way to criticize this person who doesn't think of the unhappiness. Yeah, so I'd like to talk about kind of a twisted karma within Song China.

[09:02]

This O-an, let me write in Japanese because I don't really know Chinese pronunciation. O-an, donge, was a disciple of Kokyu Shoryu. And is a disciple of . Engo is the person I mentioned this morning. I mean, Dogen quoted. This person is a person who made a blue cliff record, and Dogen respected this person. And another disciple of Engo Kokugon is Daiei Soko.

[10:11]

And Daiei's disciple is Setsun Toko. And Setsantoko is a teacher of Musairyoha. This Musairyoha is the abbot of Tiento Monastery, Vendogen visited. Musairyoha. I don't know. And Daiei is a person who severely criticized Soto Zen masters as a silent illumination. And those masters are, in our lineage, Choro Seiryo.

[11:21]

And Choro is a disciple of Tanka Shijun. And Tanka is a disciple of Fuyo Dokai, the person who I mentioned this morning, Fuyo Dokai, the Zen master who was exiled because he rejected his invitation from the emperor. And Choro Seiryu, or in my lineage, this person is called Shinketsu Seiryu. Choro is the name of the temple this person lived. And Shinketsu is this person's goal name. And Choro Seiryu's Dharma brother is Wanshi Shogak. Wanshi is a person who composed 100 verses on 100 koans, and that later became Shoyoroku, or Book of Serenity.

[12:44]

So this is a person who made Hekiganroku, and this is a person who made Shoyoroku. And Choro Seiryo's disciple is Tendo Sougaku. And Tendo Sougaku's disciple is Setsho Chikan. And Nyojo. And Dogen. This is Rinzai. This is Soto.

[13:46]

And this tradition or lineage is most popular and powerful in this age because Daiei was really popular. powerful teacher. And this tradition is called a Koan Zen or Kensho Zen. In their tradition, enlightenment experience or Kensho experience is really important. And as a method to have that enlightenment experience, they use Koan. Or another name is Kanna. Kanna Zen. Kan is to... See, seeing the war is koan or story.

[14:51]

And Daiei Soko criticized shinketsu and Wanshi's style of practice as silent illumination or mokusho. the point is they just sit and they have no enlightenment that is a point so these two are kind of have been you know argue each other see this is in the 12th century so after 12th century until today this discussion have been continuing whether just sitting or having enlightenment is important or just sitting is enough you know this discussion start here And of course, Dogen is this side.

[15:59]

Dogen's main target of criticism is Daiei. If you read Shobo Genzo, you find often Dogen criticize or even attack Daiei. And Daiei attack these people. So it's a kind of a twisted karma. From Dogen's point of view, this kind of practice is not right. But from these people, this is not right. So there is a twisted karma. And there is another twisted karma that is in Japan. Before Dogen, there are two Zen groups or the movement. One is, of course, Eisai. Eisai was the first Japanese master who went to China and transmitted Rinzai Zen.

[17:07]

The Rinzai then ASI transmitted is not from this lineage, but another lineage of Rinzai named Koryu, or Koryu means a yellow dragon school. This lineage is from Yogi. Yogi school and Koryu school are two branch school, sub-school in Rinzai in some dynasty. And Eisai was Myozen's teacher, and Myozen was Dogen's teacher. Then Dogen practiced Zen at Kenrinji in Japan. And there is another person who started his own school of Zen in Japan around the same time with Eisai. His name is No-Nin. this person didn't go to China but he liked meditation practice so he practiced by himself and he thought he attained enlightenment but he didn't receive transmission but because this person

[18:27]

was very powerful, charismatic person. He had many students. And his group was called Dharmashu. Yeah, Dharmashu. Noni is a teacher of Kaku-an. And Kaku-an is the original teacher of Ejo. Eijo is Dogen's major disciple, Andarmaya, and second, Abottomei Heiji. And beside Eijo, another Kakuwan disciple is Eikan. First, Eijo became Dogen's disciple. And later, in 1241, Dogen was still in Kyoto.

[19:36]

This person, Ekan, Ekan had already teacher and he had many students. With his own student, Ekan became Dogen's disciple. And Ekan's students were people like Gikai, many people who have Gi in the first part of their Dharma name are originally Ekan's disciples. And those people, after Ejo, you know, continued Soto school. But when this person Noni started, you know, Zen practice, especially after Eisai came back from China, you know, receiving the Dharma transmission from Chinese Zen master, Noni was blamed that he has no transmission.

[20:51]

So what Noni did was he wrote a letter about his enlightenment experience and understanding and sent two of his disciples to China and asked, receiving Dharma transmission through letter, And that Chinese Zen master, Nonin, received transmission with this person, Setsan Toko. Daiei's disciple. So there is a twisted karma. You know... So there is a basic kind of a conflict between two lineages. And Dogen criticized this person.

[21:58]

But these people, who is originally from this lineage, became Dogen's disciples. So there's some complicated situation. Anyway, and another important, not important, but interesting thing is, you know, Wanshi was the abbot of Tendo Monastery for many years. And he was the person who made Tendo Monastery a big monastery. He lived at, he was the abbot at Tendo Monastery for more than 30 years. And when Wanshi died, this person, Oh Andonge, became the abbot of Tendo Monastery after Wanshi. You know, the official monastery supported by the government, the abbot was selected by the government.

[23:09]

So the abbot of that monastery is not necessarily previous abbot's disciple. So after Wang died, this person, O-Wan, became the abbot of Tendo Monastery. And Tendo Sogaku, this person also became the abbot of Tendo Monastery. And of course, Nyojo was the abbot of Tendo Monastery. So all these people were the abbot of Tendo Monastery where Dogen practiced. This is another interesting connection. So Owam was the abbot of Tendo Monastery about 60 years ago before Dogen visited. So probably Dogen heard about this person. And another point is at that time, Owon and Daiei was compared and considered two most eminent Rinzai masters at that time.

[24:27]

even though O-an was a Dharma nephew of Daiei, this person seems very eminent person. That is a connection between Dogen and this person. So it has, it might be some, you know, twisted karma between Dogen and this person. Please. Monks for who practiced with Wanshi and don't want to practice with this person, have to leave the monastery.

[25:35]

So, monastery... You know, that is the system of so-called, that kind of monastery was called Jupposatsu. That means the monastery supported by the government or emperor. The abbot is selected by the government. So if this abbot died or resigned, another one is selected by the abbot, not by this person. So practice style might be completely changed. Then the monks who want to continue practicing this style have to leave. and his students came to the monastery. So it's moving around.

[26:37]

And that is why, for example, in Japanese Rinzai Monastery, like big Rinzai Monastery, like Daitoku-ji, there is many small sub-temples within Daitoku-ji. That was the reason why there are so many small sub-temples within large, big monasteries is when one abbot died, the abbot's disciple may build a stupa of the deceased abbot. And as a kind of excuse to stay, they built a small temple to not protect, but take care of their teacher's grave. And during the many years, centuries, there are many such sub-temples within this big monastery.

[27:39]

So it has a good point and not so good point. I mean, all those groups are always conflicting each other. In Japan? Yeah, today they don't have so much problem. They don't have so much energy to fight. What am I talking? Oh, there is a kind of a complicated connection between Dogen and this person. So one reason Dogen kind of a good side is this person is this side, not that side. And still, I don't really understand, you know, within this, the context of this writing of Shoho Jiso, he's

[28:41]

state his saying, Owen's saying, and Dogen's, you know, how can I say, point, doesn't really, how can I say, much, I mean, well. So, But probably even though I don't understand what the point Dogen want to criticize, probably at the time of Dogen, this might be clear enough what Dogen want to say. And so I'd like to kind of introduce this type of practice in this lineage. I mean, I have never practiced that kind of so-called Kensho or Koan Zen, and I don't know much about it.

[29:45]

But it's kind of interesting how different from Dogen's practice and so-called Kanna Zen or Koan Zen practice. No. In this statement, that's why I'm wondering why Dogen criticized this particular saying. But there are basic differences between this type of Zen and Dogen's type of Zen. In order to understand, I'd like to introduce one person's so-called enlightenment experience. It's really different. This is from D.T. Suzuki's Essays in Zen Buddhism, and the title of the essay is Satori.

[30:48]

So D.T. Suzuki's essay about what Satori is. And of course, according to D.T. Suzuki, Satori is the most essential point of Rinzai Zen practice. And D.T. Suzuki introduced several examples in Song Dynasty, the masters' Kensho experience. This is one example of Mugaku Sōgen in Japanese. I also mentioned this person this morning.

[31:52]

He came to Japan from China when Song Dynasty was conquered by Mongol, and he became the first founder of Engakuji Monastery in Kamakura. This person is focused on the koan of moo. I think you are familiar with moo. That is Joshu's Buddha nature, dog's Buddha nature. If dog has Buddha nature or not, Joshu said moo. And this is interesting, you know, in the Rinzai tradition, this koan or dog's Buddha nature is based on umonkan or gate, this gate. And Mumonkan, this story is only it.

[32:59]

Someone, a monk, asked whether dog has Buddha nature or not. Joshu said, Mu. That's the end of the story. But in Shoyoroku, once in Shoyoroku, there's another part. First, to the first monk, Joshu said, Mu. And to the second monk who asked the same question, Joshu said, Wu. Wu means the dog has Buddha nature. So the story is different between Rinzai and Soto. And if you read Shoyoroku, you can see that this meaning of first Joshu said, Mu, and second Joshu said, Wu is kind of stage of practice of the disciples or students. First, no, in Shoyoroku, first Joshu said, woo, and second Joshu said, moo.

[34:15]

The person who made the commentary of Shoyoroku said, first, Joshu give like a candy. that even dog has Buddha nature. And later he took out that candy, moo. So this is like a stage of education or teaching method. But when Dogen Zenji quote the same story in Shobo Genzo Busho, he changed the order. First, Joshu said mu, and second, Joshu said u. So it seems Dogen's interpretation is also different from Wanshi or Shoyoroku's. First Joshu said U and second Mu, so it's not a step-by-step teaching.

[35:17]

But for Dogen, U and Mu is two sides of one reality, or a true reality of all beings. It's not a step. That is the difference between Shoyoroku and Dogen's Busho. And in the case of Mumonkan, Busho or Buddha nature is just Mu. And this Mu is beyond any duality of Wu and Mu. And Mumonkan said practitioners should take that Mu like a burning fireball Also, you cannot think of anything. That is Rinzai approach of this koan of Mu. And this Zen master, Mugaku Sogen, is working on this koan.

[36:21]

So D.T. Suzuki says, the case of Mugaku Sogen was more extraordinary than that of later, before he talked about Hakuin's. And fortunately, in this case, we have his own recording of it in detail. So Muga Kusogen recorded his experience. And his experience was, when I was 14, I went up to Kinzan. Kinzan is the monastery. Daiei used to be there. When he was 17 years old, I made up my mind to study Buddhism and began to unravel the mystery of Joshu's Mu. So he started to practice on Joshu's Mu when he was 17.

[37:30]

I expected to finish the matter within one year, but I did not come to any understanding of it after all. Another year passed without much avail. And three more years, also finding myself with no progress. So he continued to work on Mu. In the fifth or sixth year, five no special changes came over me. the Mu became so inseparably attached to me that I could not get away from it even while asleep. So even when he was sleeping, he was fighting against Mu. This is kind of a practice in Rinzai tradition. This whole universe seems to be nothing but the Mu itself.

[38:36]

In the meantime, I was told by an old monk to set it aside for a while and see how things would go with me. So he gave advice, stop it for a while. According to this advice, I dropped the matter altogether and sat quietly." So he, without working on koan, he tried to sat quietly, just sitting. But owing to the fact that the Mu had been with me so long, I could in no way shake it off, however much I tried. So Mu was always together with him. When I was sitting, I forgot that I was sitting. Nor was I conscious of my own body.

[39:39]

Nothing but a sense of utter blankness prevailed. Half a year thus passed. Like a bird escaping from its cage, my mind, my consciousness moved about without restraint, sometimes eastward, sometimes westward, sometimes northward or southward. Sitting through two days in succession, or through one day and night, I did not feel any fatigue. At the time, there were about 900 monks residing in the monastery, 900 monks, among whom there were many devoted students of Zen.

[40:44]

One day, while sitting, I felt as if my mind and my body were separated from each other and lost the chance of getting back together. So body and mind separated. All the monks about me thought that I was quite dead. But an old monk among them said that I was frozen to a state of immoveability while absorbed in deep meditation. So in this type of meditation, we may experience this kind of very extreme condition of concentration.

[41:47]

and that if I were covered up with warm clothings, I should by myself come to my senses. So other people thought he was dead. This proved true, for I finally awoke from it. And when I asked the monks near my seat, How long I had been in that condition? So he had no consciousness. They told me it was one day and night. So all one day and night he was in such a condition. After this, I still kept up my practice of sitting. I could now sleep a little, so before he couldn't. When I closed my eyes, a broad expanse of emptiness presented itself before them, which then assumed the form of a farmyard.

[42:59]

Through this piece of land, I walked and walked until I got thoroughly familiar with the ground. But as soon as my eyes were opened, the vision altogether disappeared. One night, sitting far into the night, I kept my eyes open and was aware of my sitting up in my seat. All of a sudden, the sound of striking the board in front of the head monk's room licked my ear, which at once revealed me, the original man, in full. There was then no more of that vision which appeared at the closing of my eyes. Hastily I came down from the seat and ran out into the moonlight, moonlit night, and went up to the garden house called Ganki, where, looking up to the sky, I laughed loudly.

[44:16]

Oh, how great is the Dharmakaya! Oh, how great and immense for evermore! Thence my joy knew no bounds. I could not quietly sit in the meditation hall. So he couldn't sit. I went about with no special purpose in the mountains. Walking this way and that, I thought of the sun and the moon traversing in a day through a space. Well, it's, I don't know. four billion miles wide. My present abode is in China. I reflected then, and they say the district of Yang is the center of the earth. So where he is now is the center of the earth. If so, this place must be two billion million miles away from where the sun rises.

[45:26]

So he saw the sun. And how is it that as soon as it comes up, its rays lose no time in striking my face? So when the sun rises and the person is very far distance from the sun, still the moment the sun rises, the sunlight hits his eyes. And he was surprised about that. I reflected again. The rays of my own eye must level just as instantaneously as those of the sun as it reaches the latter. My eyes, my mind, are they not the Dharmakaya itself? So that means if sunlight comes to his eyes instantaneously, his eyes go to the sun instantaneously.

[46:35]

So he found that he himself is Dharmakaya. Thinking thus, I felt all the bonds snapped and broken to pieces. that had been tying me for so many ages? How many numberless years had I been sitting in the hole of ants?" That means sitting in the hole of individual self as ego. How many numberless years had I been sitting in the hall of ants? Today, even in every pore of my skin, there lie all the Buddha lands in the ten quarters. In the ten quarters is in ten directions. I thought within myself, even if I have no greater satori, he found that today even in every pore of my skin, there lie all the Buddha land in the ten directions.

[47:52]

Is this same as Dogen is saying or not? To me this is very interesting and important. If these two are the same, then Rinzai practice and Soto practice are not completely different. So this is our koan. And I only practice in Dogen's way, so I cannot make sure. So if you have some experience in Rinzai, please let me know. Anyway, as a word, these two are, to me, are the same. You know, me and 10 Direction are all connected. And there's no 10 Direction world beside this person. And without the connection with 10 Direction world, this person doesn't really... So oneness between the knot of the network of interdependent origination and this entire network is completely connected and completely one.

[49:07]

And yet, as Dogen said, each one of us is completely independent. this kind of, how can I say, not simple or flat, but very complicated or more than two-dimensional reality. So I have no answer. But it seems that their point of their discussion is about the method or style of practice, not the final reality we can find or awaken to, to me. Anyway, let me start to talk about this person's saying. So I don't think this person, Owen, saying in this statement and Dogen want to say in this writing, not completely different.

[50:21]

So that is another reason I don't really understand why Dogen criticized this person. Please. No, Rinzai. Yeah. He does... I'm not sure if he went to Pure Land or not, but he studied Pure Land Buddhism. Okay, this person Owens said, if you wish to understand easily, this word easily might be a problem for Dogen, as he mentioned later. simply face arising mind and moving thoughts. Arising mind is, you know, our mind is always arising, staying for a while and perishing. This movement of thought, coming and going of, you know, thought.

[51:25]

And moving thought is the same thing. Page 17. throughout 12 hours. So we should watch this moving mind or arising mind or moving thought that's coming and going of our own mind for throughout 12 hours. 12 hours means 24 hours. Do you understand? In the ancient times, in China and Japan, one day has 12 hours, not 24. Just following these moving thoughts right there. In our practice, we let go of the thought, but this person said we should follow this thought.

[52:29]

There might be some difference here. you suddenly clearly see that there is nothing to gain, like the great empty space. So when you see each and every coming and going of thought, I think it means there's some space between one thought and another thought, even though that is shorter than one moment. To see that empty space, I think, is important point in this kind of practice. So there is nothing to gain like the great empty space. Also, the empty space has neither shape nor boundary. Empty space is no shape, of course, and no boundary. Empty space is just one empty space.

[53:33]

And within this empty space, thoughts are coming and going, like in our Zen, we are like a blue sky. And within this blue sky, thoughts are coming, stay for a while, and disappear. Same thing. And inside and outside are one reality, no separation between inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves. And both wisdom and its object disappear. So there's no subject-object relationship. both reality and understanding of it, the reality of all beings and our understanding, observation of it, are eliminated. Three times, past, present and future, are all equal. Those who have reached such a field are called a person of the slain way.

[54:43]

person of the three way who has nothing to study and non-doing is an expression from Shodoka. Do you know Shodoka? The song of enlightenment of the way. Anyway, according to this person, this is our practice and And Dogen make comment on this person's statement. These are phrases uttered by the old man, O-an, using his entire strength. It seems that he is simply chasing the shadows and never knew resting.

[55:45]

I don't understand this. He's simply chasing the shadows and never knew resting, always chasing after the shadow of something. Yeah, I know that, but never resting. What does it mean? I mean, he said he is resting. Hmm? Hmm? But if you interpret it differently, as if you're following them, as if you're trying to catch them, then it's chasing something that's gone.

[56:53]

Do you think that is what Dogen is saying about this person's practice? What's the difference between letting go of the thoughts and following the thoughts? Because I've done both of those practices and ultimately there's no difference. Maybe. It's technically a little bit. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's clear chasing shadow means chasing the sword, following the sword. But Dogen said never resting means this chasing never finished, never done. That means there's no time our sword stops, so there's no time we can rest. Please. Please. invading his territory.

[57:57]

I see. That might be so. Please. I don't really talk about it, but when I meditate, I mean, when I sit there, sometimes, I go into a huge, empty space. It's sort of like that picture of the old woman and the young woman. But I can sit there, and I can sit there with my eyes open and be in this huge space. It's not the space I'm sitting in a Zendo. I mean, could this not be little? and not only not only can i sit in this huge empty space but the way that it happens is this chasing shadow it is you it comes from the lines on the wall the shadows and the light in the room so you go into this place i think this is literal this sounds exactly like what it is but

[59:21]

I think this is what Owen is saying about his practice. So it is literal, yes. I think so. Literally, I go into this place, there is no separation between me and the inside and the outside. And then, just like what you were talking about before, when I come back out of it, back to the zendo, back to the zato, I want to run out into the garden and go, yay! Because there is no separation. So you had the same kind of experience with this person? Exactly. That's good. And often. Often. Wow. I mean, did you not? I mean, did you? I never had. I have. In fact, one of the first sushis I did with you. It was wonderful. That was fantastic.

[60:22]

Please. It seems almost like simply chasing the shadows. If it's misunderstood on a level, it sounds like there's a person separate from the thinking who can watch thoughts move. But I think what you were saying, from my own experience, as soon as you become aware of the thought, it's done. It seems like there's this kind of a semantic. fundamental misunderstanding of the word, chasing or following the thought for somebody. Because when I'm thinking about what I'm going to do tomorrow when I'm doing Zazen, I only realize it after the fact. I'm not watching the thoughts continue. Otherwise, if I am, I'm actually thinking.

[61:24]

There's no way I can be aware of it. When I open the hand, you're actually aware of what has gone on before. I don't know. I have many experiences. Please. When I read this line, or when I hear this line, it seems that he's simply chasing the shadows of never-ending resting. I guess I was thinking of it more metaphorically. He's chasing the shadows of understanding and never-ending resting. How I interpret it is Dogen is saying, well, he's just, you know, he's just out there, you know, his practice of his understanding that he's you know, that he's expounded basically this whole paragraph, this teaching, he's saying, this guy, you know, he's just tasting the shadows without their, you know, way off of left field, never knew resting, it's like he never got it.

[62:27]

I don't know if that's my interpretation. Maybe an idiomatic way of understanding it. chasing shadows you're not really dealing with the real thing but what's important you're just sort of doing something foolish you know idiomatic expression not exactly the automatic reflection Well, another meaning of chasing shadow is shadow is always together with this person. So when we learn chasing the shadow, the shadow is coming with me. So there's no time this resting is done. That is one meaning of chasing the shadow. In this case, chasing the shadow of myself. So when the shadow runs, I have to run. And then as far as I am running, shadow is running. So there's no time. As far as we are chasing after the shadow, there's no time we can settle down. That is one possible meaning.

[63:32]

So probably Dogen is saying following the thought doesn't work. Maybe. I mean, I have no fixed understanding yet about this part of this writing. So I'm still trying to figure out what Dogen is saying. So please don't think I'm teaching you. I'm still studying. And next he asked a question. When inside and outside are not one, is the Buddha Dharma not there? That means this person said inside and outside are one reality. And Dogen asked if there are two sides, where is the Buddha Dharma? That means this person only sees the oneness, does not see two-ness, not oneness.

[64:42]

So Dogen is always trying to show both sides. So just say inside and outside are one is not enough for Dogen. But for, I think, this person, we are always within duality. So to see oneness of these two is awakening. But Fat Dogen's thing is we have to go beyond that awakening of oneness. So we return to not oneness again to this actual dualistic reality. That is Dogen always points out. So to go to see the absolute or ultimate reality of oneness is not enough. We should see, please. we should see the many different characteristics within that oneness or emptiness.

[65:49]

I think that is the fact Dogen said in Genjo Koan. He said, you know, when we sail aboard in the ocean, first we see many things, shores and mountains, but when we continue to sail and go to the midst of ocean, he said, We only see the round shape of ocean, but he said that is not the goal. He should say that we must study various limitless characteristics of the ocean. This one circle means oneness. of the ocean but wish to see many foreign characteristics within that oneness and he said water is for a fish water is like a palace for uh heavenly beings water is like a jewel

[66:54]

And for the hungry ghost, water is like, not hungry ghost, but water is like, what is the word? So, depending upon the person's situation, this entire world seems very different. That is what Dogen said in Shohoji, so that, you know, there are one piece, two piece, three piece, and four piece of ten directions. So even though we are really one with ten directions, the scenery of this ten-direction world are different in each time. So we have to see not only oneness, but also within this oneness there are many different characteristics or sceneries. So I think this question has some meaning. So in reading Shobo Genzo, does he always do both sides?

[68:01]

I think so. For example, in Busho. I never caught him doing just one side. No, we cannot. We cannot. Just one side. is not enough. I know. Yeah. You never saw Dogen just emphasize that, just oneness. He always said once. Two. Yeah. For example, in Busho, Shobogen's Busho, he said, he discussed about Buddha nature from U Buddha nature and Mu Buddha nature. Always. Please. Hmm? I think it's like the second. And Dogen keep asking, what is inside?

[69:06]

What is outside? And empty space has both shape and boundary is the utterance of the Buddha ancestor. So he's saying the opposite side of this Owen's statement. Owen said empty space has no shape and boundary. Usually that is awakening of emptiness. No shape, no boundary, no form. But Dogen, again, is saying empty space has shape and boundary. That is what he wrote in Shobo Genzo, Koku, or Empty Space. And he quote the Koan story of Sekkyo and Seido. Sekkyo asks Seido, do you know how to grasp the empty space?

[70:10]

And Seido said, yes, I know. And he... grasping the space or air with hands. But Sekkyō said that is not a way to grasp the empty space. And then Seido asked them, how do you grasp the empty space? And he grabbed the person's nose. That is how to grasp the empty space. That means empty space has shape, has boundary, and pain. That means this five skandhas is empty. So to grasp the air doesn't mean anything. But in order to grasp the emptiness, we have to grasp these five skandhas. This is the only way we can grasp the empty space.

[71:13]

So empty space has shape, karmic body, and mind. That is empty. So he is trying to show always the other side of this, not in this case, all understatement. So what is the empty space? That means without five scandas or form, there's no emptiness. But we think we need to see emptiness beyond five skandhas or rupa. But to grasp these five skandhas is the only way we can grasp emptiness. But the heart is saying, form is emptiness and emptiness is form. But we are looking for emptiness beyond this form. According to Dogen, that is a mistake.

[72:15]

Anyway, even though we can't find it, or... That's a good question. Ask Dogen what he says. Yeah, that is how we develop our understanding. You know, we question to Dogen. You know, Dogen is trying to show the other side of this Zen Master is saying, and so we have to ask Dogen the another side Dogen might, you know, overlook. That is how we study Dharma with Dogen's guidance.

[73:19]

So... reading or studying Shobo Genzo is not memorizing what he's saying and accept it as absolutely you know to fix system of teaching but we need to have a dialogue between what he's saying saying and for our question that is how we continue you know Dogen's practice So having a question is very important. And of course, because Dogen is dead, he doesn't give us answer. We have to find the answer by ourselves. This is the way we continue our practice and study Dharma. Anyway, I suppose that Owen has not yet known what the empty space is. He does not see the empty space.

[74:20]

He has not yet grasped the empty space. He has not yet struck the empty space. Struck the empty space is another expression. Maybe it has something to do with Nyozo's poem of Windu Bell. Windu Bell. Do you know Nyozo's poem on Windu Bell? The entire body of wind bell is like a mouse and always discussing, talking or expressing prajna with the wind from any directions. the wind bell doesn't make choice, you know, the wind from north or south or east or west. But together with all beings, the wind bell is always expressing and discussing emptiness.

[75:27]

So, striking the emptiness. And he also used this expression, striking the emptiness in Bendoa or Jiji-yo-zanmai, it's not only the time we strike the emptiness, but also rest of the time that sound is always, what's the word, continue, resonating. I hope I can finish this section. He mentions arising mind and moving thoughts. There is a principle that the mind does not move. It's up to the definition of what mind is. Mind has many different meanings. If mind is our thinking, it's always moving.

[76:33]

But Dogen used this mind as one mind is all beings, and all beings is one mind. In Shobo Genzo, Sokshinzebutsu, The mind is itself Buddha. Dogen said this mind in the expression of Sokshin Zebatsu is the mind that is one mind is itself all beings and all beings is one mind. So this one mind is same as true reality. If mind is defer to that true reality then it doesn't move. That means it, you know, reality of all beings is eternal. And how is there a rising mind within 12 hours This is about being on time. Being on time is really one thing.

[77:34]

So within 12 hours, already being is there. Nothing can come and go, come or go, because being on time is always together, always one. When time is there, being is already there. So nothing extra can come in. The mind cannot enter into 12 hours. So there's no two separate things, 12 hours and mind. So mind cannot come into. And the 12 hours does not come into the 12 minds, because these two are really one thing. How is it possible for the mind to arise? What are the moving thoughts? Do the thoughts move or not move? Or do they not move or not not move? So this is a way we examine someone's saying, you know, following Dogen.

[78:40]

Even Dogen's saying should be examined in this way. And this is how Dogen works with Koan or any expression of Dharma. He examines one phrase from many different directions and always criticizes something. Always showing the other side. what is the moving like and what is the not moving like you know in the San Suikyo or the mountain and water sutra he said mountain is moving and mountain does not move and he said water is always moving and yet water never move he always said two sides

[79:49]

And what does he call thoughts? Do thoughts exist within 12 hours? Do 12 hours exist within thoughts? Do they exist when there are no dichotomies? So he's not saying another kind of a different kind of truth besides what this master is saying. But he's trying, just checking out try to make our mind flexible. He said that it is easy to understand if we simply facing arising mind and moving thought within 12 hours. How shall we understand easily? Does he mean we can easily understand the way of Buddha ancestors? If so, the Buddha way is neither easy to understand nor difficult to understand.

[80:57]

That is why Nanyue, or Nangaku, and Jiangxi, or Kosei, Nangaku is Nangaku Ejo, and Kosei refers to Ejo's disciple, Basodoits, or Mazu. This is about a story of polishing a tithe. I don't have time to talk about this story. It's a long, short story, but we need a long explanation. But if you are interested, please read a show, Zazen Shin, or Acupuncture Needle of Zazen. But Nangaku practiced with his teacher Huinan, the sixth ancestor, for eight years until he understood Huinan's question of what is this that does come.

[82:01]

And Baso practiced with Nangaku for 15 years. Anyway, engaged in the wholehearted practice of the Way, Vendo, under the guidance of their teachers for many years. So there's nothing easy in Buddha Dharma or Buddha Way. Of course, nothing difficult. But it takes a long time. This continuous practice is itself Buddha Dharma. And he said, suddenly clearly see that there is nothing to gain. He has not yet seen the way of the ancestors even in a dream. How can a person with such inferior capability wish to understand easily? He doesn't like this suddenly clearly see.

[83:04]

clearly see is like there's a person who is seeing and the reality which is seen. That is the reason he didn't like the expression Kensho. Kensho is seeing nature, of course seeing the Buddha nature, and according to him Buddha nature cannot be seen in any way because Buddha nature is the way things are. and there's no one who is seeing, who can discover, and no reality of Buddha nature which can be seen. I can judge that he has not yet fully investigated the great way of Buddha ancestors. If Buddha Dharma were as he says, how could it have reached until today? So it seems he's criticizing this is a master, but maybe not.

[84:06]

Any question? OK. Thank you very much.

[84:20]

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