Good afternoon. after giving this some thought, I decided that I would talk, give you my understanding of my teacher, Suzuki Roshi's understanding of his teaching. So I'm going to present something from one of our publications, Not Always So. And Talk about it.

[01:03]

This particular talk we called Brown Rice is Just Right. In the 60s, When we were beginning Tassajara, everyone was eating brown rice. I talked about this before, but I'll talk about it again. Tassajara came into existence as a Zen center, as a monastery, about the same time as the food reformation movement in California. And people were interested in macrobiotics, which featured brown rice as the main dish, and many other things.

[02:23]

And then there were people who had other ideas, fruitarians, mucus-less diet people. Yes. You can't hear it? It's supposed to be on. It's supposed to be up. How's that? Is that better? More? There. Okay. Did you hear anything about what I said? No? Yeah. Okay. Shall I repeat all of what I said? No, I won't. But anyway, so Suzuki Roshi arrived in the midst of all this, and of course in Japan he was eating a Japanese diet, white rice, and brown rice, of course, is considered the lowest kind of peasant food, unrefined.

[03:37]

But Suzuki Roshi took up our way of thinking and used, although brown rice was not his diet, he used that to illustrate our practice. Because people who ate brown rice which was all of us, but the people who were really pushing for brown rice said, you should chew each bite a hundred times. Someone asked Suzuki Roshi, do you chew your brown rice each bite a hundred times? He said, oh, if I did that, I couldn't enjoy my meal. But he did talk about chewing brown rice, and he used everything that came to him as a teaching tool. So here he talks about brown rice as the practice of emptiness.

[04:47]

If we want to understand the meaning of emptiness, we have to chew our rice thoroughly. Tell that lady she can come in. So he says, how do you like Zazen? I think it may be better to ask, how do you like brown rice? Zazen is too big a topic. Brown rice is just right. Actually, there's not much difference. When you eat brown rice, you have to chew it. And unless you chew it, it is difficult to swallow. So when you chew it very well, your mouth becomes part of the kitchen. and actually the brown rice becomes more and more tasty. When you eat white rice, we don't chew so much, but that little bit of chewing feels so good that naturally the rice goes right down our throat.

[05:54]

So you don't have to chew white rice so much because it's actually pre-digested for you. All of the nutrients are taken out of the rice, and then you have what's left called white rice. So I don't want to go into the various levels of a grain of rice, but actually a grain of rice originally is brown, and then many of the hulls are taken off and various other layers are taken off until we get something that's called pure white rice, which is... So all the nutrients are gone. Most of them are. So this is one reason why people wanted to eat brown rice. The other thing about it is that brown rice is much more chewy. So brown rice chewing, and you have to do something, and you have to chew, and the more you chew, the more the flavor comes out.

[06:56]

And so this is the same with Zazen. The more you practice, the more the flavor of practice appears. The more deeper you go into zazen, the more the flavor of zazen comes forth. So brown rice, zazen, not two different things. It's the chewing that's important. So you can't practice zazen in a pre-digested way. You have to really chew on it. But when you do that, it becomes very tasty. When he says, your mouth becomes part of the kitchen, it's an interesting kind of little thing to say, but there is a saying that a monk's mouth is like an oven. So whatever comes in is cooked and digested. This is monk's practice, where you're open to everything and whatever comes in, you chew it and digest it.

[08:04]

You may or may not like it, but you don't reject anything and you don't covet anything. You let things come and you let things go. So he says, when we digest food completely, What will become of it? Where will it go? It will be transformed, changing its chemical nature and will permeate our whole body. In the process, it dies within our body. To eat and digest food is natural to us, as we are always changing. This organic process is called emptiness. The reason we call it emptiness is that it has no special form. It has some form, but that form is not permanent. While it is changing, it carries on our life energy. So, as we eat, as we chew, we actually destroy the chemical nature of the rice, or whatever it is that we're chewing on.

[09:19]

And then... That morsel dies within our body, but its energy is absorbed by our body. So, in some sense, brown rice and myself are not two different things. We say brown rice has kernels, little seeds, and so forth, and I have a body with arms and legs and so forth. But actually, brown rice and myself are not two different things, even though we look different. Brown rice looks like brown rice, and I look like me. But we're actually exchanging the same energy. Actually, we eat our way through life. Sometimes I describe our life as like an earthworm, a big mouth that's just moving through the earth and sucking in whatever meets our mouth.

[10:29]

Yeah, Steve? What about when you swallow a red-hot iron ball? What then? Oh. Don't scream. Where's yours? Yeah. It's good, though. Good place to keep it. I know. Let it go all the way down. So when we eat our way through, don't let anything get stuck there. So it comes in and it goes out. Elimination is just as important as intake. This is the problem we have with atomic energy, I'm afraid. We know how to take it in, but we don't know how to eliminate it.

[11:33]

so um this is how we stay healthy so earthworms are quite healthy they eat they just eat through the earth and what comes out becomes very beneficial for the earth so when we transform energy we transform energy uh in a good way that enhances the earth and replenishes the earth so we're not only are we taking but we're giving So we honor the earthworm for taking in and giving. So we know how to give as well as take in the right way without even trying. I don't want to talk about this too much, but we're actually taking care of the earth and recycling life. Life energy needs to be recycled all the time. If it gets stuck, then we get sick. So the secret of how to stay healthy is to not get stuck anywhere.

[12:39]

Not let anything get stuck, either in thinking, emotionally, or physically. Continually keep letting... This is called, actually, renunciation. Renunciation means letting go moment by moment of whatever it is that we're stuck with. How are you doing it? When you observe the... Something is stuck. So how are you processing or how are you doing it? You know, letting go is a process? Yes. Okay. So how do you get unstuck when you're stuck? Well, we're talking in generalities. So in the realm of generalities, our practice is to always come back to our center. When we get stuck, usually it means that we're off-center. We're not allowing ourselves to be centered again.

[13:41]

So emotionally or otherwise, mentally and emotionally, our life is like a teeter-totter. And the center is the fulcrum. And there is a weight here and a weight here. And when the weight gets too big here, it goes down, and this weight can't bring it back up to equilibrium. So the process is, how do you find your equilibrium when you get stuck? If the weight is too much down here, and you can't bring it down, they go off some. But it's called being hung up, right? But if we just keep coming back to our center, then we have a way to go. If you don't come back to your center, you're always trying to figure it out with your head. And then we get into a problem because we're trying to figure everything out with our head, with our thoughts, which are abstract. So when you keep coming back to your center, then you can find a way to go.

[14:46]

And you can find your balance. And when you find your balance, it's easier to find a way to go. You are not avoiding anything, even if you are knowing that certain thoughts, certain things are usually get stuck in with? You can't avoid things. I mean, you can, but that just makes it worse. Avoidance makes things worse. No, to directly engage. That's practice. So whatever it is you're stuck with is your avenue to open up your practice. So we don't say that there are obstacles. Whatever it is that we're stuck with, we can say that's an obstacle or we can say that's an opportunity. It just depends on your attitude. Attitude is everything. I know people that are always stuck, always stuck because

[15:49]

they see everything as an obstacle. And other people use what seems like an obstacle as an opportunity, as a way to go, we have to have a problem. Our life is based on having a problem. If you don't have a problem, then you have a real problem. So we don't try to get rid of our problems. Our practice is not to try to get rid of our problem, but to engage our problems and to see why is this a problem. We also have habit energy, which drives our problems. And we also have compulsion. And these are not easy to just drop. If you have a compulsive problem, you can't just drop it, right? But you can use it to work with it. It's a tool. If you use it as a tool, then you're engaging it and you're not denying it and you're not avoiding it.

[16:57]

And instead of it using you, you can use it. That's Aikido. Jackie? How do you engage, especially if the problem is a compulsive problem, how do you engage without getting stuck tighter? Yes. Have compassion for yourself. One of the problems that we run into when we have compulsive behavior is that we start blaming ourselves and then we start coming down on ourselves and that creates a compound problem which is worse than the original problem. And then we get stuck because we don't like ourselves and we punish ourselves and so forth. we have to see how we, you know, investigate how things arise, investigate how does this arise, and how do I perpetuate it, and what can I, how can I avoid it.

[18:02]

But it means being aware at the moment something arises, so that before you get stuck, you can see if it's possible to avoid it. But I will say again that when you have this behavior, it comes up to come back to your center. This is zazen. This is the principle of zazen. For always practicing zazen, then whatever is coming up for us, we come back to zazen. And I'm not saying zazen will dissolve everything, but it gives us a neutral place to go to so that we're not just stuck in our emotions or stuck in our thoughts or stuck in our compulsion. If we come back to zazen, zazen is the neutral place. It's a place where nothing special takes place.

[19:06]

So you can't, it's not avoidance, it's simply being in control. The immovable place. I can remember times when I had very compulsive behavior. And all I could do was just sit down and cross my legs until I said, I'm just going to sit here until... something happens or doesn't happen and after a while it's fine so we have this wonderful thing called zazen and we should use it to the full it does seem like it's when your compassion for yourself overcomes the other vices pride right finally also compassionate to yourself, like, oh, before I bring your stuff or something, so I finally will not overcome everything else, then you let go.

[20:08]

That's right. So having compassion for yourself is really important. I know that I do these things, I know that I have this problem, but I also know that I feel, I like myself anyway. And I don't want to hurt anybody else. So the reason we call it emptiness is that it has no special form. So everything is, emptiness is that place where everything has the opportunity to change. So you can say change itself is emptiness. And the most fundamental thing about our existence is change. And this was Suzuki Roshi's kind of mantra, everything changes. What is the fundamental thing? Everything changes. It's the only thing that you can rely on.

[21:08]

It's that everything changes. So to be able to go with change and to be able to accept change and use change rather than being crushed by it is our practice. We can be crushed by change. But if we know how to use change, then it becomes creative. Life becomes creative. But the fact of the matter is, everything is constantly changing, and there has to be some space for everything to change. Otherwise, without emptiness, everything would be exactly the same as it is forever, which would be very tiresome. boring, like Zazen. So, we know that we are empty and also that this earth is empty. The forms are not permanent. You may wonder, why is this universe?

[22:11]

What is this universe? That comes up as a question. What is this universe? But this universe has no limit. Emptiness is not something you can understand through a space trip. We think maybe that the sky is empty. That's a metaphor, but it's not a reality. The sky is always used as a metaphor for emptiness, but the sky is also on this side, on the phenomenal side. No matter how high you go, it's all phenomena. It's all phenomenal side. But emptiness is not... Emptiness is the phenomenal side, but it's also the non-phenomenal side as well. So emptiness, there's so many names, you know, people say, well, is emptiness the same as Buddha nature or the same as thusness and so forth? Yes and no. Yes, in that these are all names for the same thing, but since you can't define the thing, we use various nomenclature to describe aspects of it.

[23:19]

So sometimes we say it's Buddha nature. Sometimes we say it's emptiness. Sometimes we say it's suchness, depending on how you're talking about it. So suchness is also a name for emptiness. Emptiness feels like the negative side. Suchness is kind of like the positive side of everything is such as it is, which is phenomenal. things only last momentarily in their suchness. But their suchness is also their emptiness. So emptiness can be understood when you are perfectly involved in chewing rice. This is actual emptiness. So on each moment something arises and on each moment something disappears. Even though it looks like we're all the same people that came into this room.

[24:23]

In some way we are, but in some way we're all different. We've changed. We've already changed. And when I say this moment, this moment is already history. It is. This moment is history. But where is this moment? It's a moment of birth and death simultaneously. So as something dies, something new arises. That's emptiness. Something disappears, something new appears simultaneously. So we don't see that because we are conditioned to see everything as flowing in a kind of logical pattern according to our ability to see how things happen. And so he says the most important point is to establish yourself in a true sense without establishing yourself on delusion.

[25:28]

And yet we cannot practice or live without delusion. Delusion is necessary, but delusion is not something on which you can establish yourself. It's like a stepladder. So what is delusion and what is enlightenment? Enlightenment. Delusion is this side. The phenomenal side is called the realm of delusion because we act in the realm of delusion without understanding what it really is. our daily life. We don't really understand what it is. We think we understand what it is, and we have some kind of understanding according to our perceptions and likes and dislikes and conditioning. We all see the world differently. Every one of us sees the world differently, even though there are things we agree on. But the actual reality is hard to see.

[26:35]

because of what we want. And what we want is for everything to be nice and comfortable and perfect. And we don't want to die and we don't want to get old and all these things, right? But the reality is different than what... There's some underlying reality which is not the same as our perceptions. And we do have some free will to... actually create our life out of the raw material around us and our relationships and our desires. We do create our life. It's called karma. So the life of karma, which is volitional action, which results in either good or bad paths of existence, is the realm of delusion. So we all live in the realm of delusion. And it's necessary. So we don't think delusion is bad.

[27:38]

We're not talking about good and bad. Delusion is just where we live, and we have to accept the fact that we don't understand everything. And we live in the best way we can, given what we understand. That's why we have to be compassionate with each other. Because we have to understand that everyone is living in this realm of delusion without being able to really figure it out. Completely. But at some point, if we sit long enough, we'll get beyond that? No, if we sit long enough, we'll realize it. That, just delusion. We'll realize what is delusion and what is not. Hopefully. But it's not under that, or like underlying. It seems like, like you said, like two worlds, or like two sides. Well, it's not two sides. We speak of it as two sides. But it's not two things. So, the realm of enlightenment is to see everything just as it is, without interference.

[28:48]

This is called the mirror mind. The mirror mind just reflects everything clearly as it is, without bias, without naming, without conditioning. simply called bare perception. Bare perception. Babies have bare perception. As a baby, you had bare perception, probably. And then you start learning. And then as you start learning, the ego starts to develop. And then as the ego starts to develop, like and dislike, wanting and not wanting, and the whole realm of dualistic or dualistic life, appears. We create that. That's the realm of delusion. Zazen is called enlightened practice because it's non-dualistic life.

[29:53]

You're not creating good, bad, right, wrong, like, dislike. All those dualities are subsumed in zazen. There's no craving, there's no desire. There's simply living one moment at a time completely without duality, without being under the thumb of duality. How do you drink water? But you reached out for a cup. That was separate. I just did what you asked. So I'm just going along with things. I was just wondering how. I mean, you've been talking a lot. I was wondering if you could talk about it. No, I don't want to talk about how. I'm showing you how. That's better than a thousand words. Living in a realm of delusion.

[31:03]

Instead of getting mad, you think, and I think it like, in the sense that we're in a play, we're in a drama. Yes. Enjoying our parts. Right. Knowing that it's just a part we're playing. But we paid it off this day. No, that's right. This is the show, and you did that, and you were like, in a way, doing a little drama there. I was dramatizing, that's right. So there's no way we can get out of this play that we're in. So how do we play it? So we play the play on the foundation of enlightenment. So that's exactly what he says. He says, delusion is necessary, but delusion is not something on which you can establish yourself. You don't establish yourself on delusion. Delusion is the play. You just play. You act out. You act within the play in an enlightened way. So... Huh? Improv.

[32:08]

Absolutely. It's improv. There are no rules. That's good. We make rules, but actually there are no rules. The precepts are guidelines. Guidelines for behavior. And the precepts, which are guidelines of behavior, are our own request. They're not something that's imposed on us. You may feel that they're imposed on you, but actually, precepts are our own inner request for order, for compassion, to live in the world in an ordered, compassionate way that... in an enlightened way. But they're not rules of behavior. They're generalities. But we do have rules of behavior. We have minor precepts. For monks, in the old tradition, there are 250 precepts for monks, 300 for nuns.

[33:11]

and ways of conduct. So if you want to practice in a way where every move has a law about it or a precept, you can do that. But for most of us, we like to have the freedom of meeting each situation, given the guidelines, in a compassionate and understanding way. So life precepts are how you do something in an improvised way, so to speak. Life is improvised. You don't know how a situation is going to turn out. You have to act in a way that you create the opportunity to have an enlightened encounter. So when we practice in a practice place, we have the atmosphere of practice.

[34:24]

We have the zendo, and we bow, and we have all the form of practice, which informs us of what practice is. And then when we leave, nobody else out there knows that you're doing that. So how do you create the situation for practice in every event that you encounter when you're not in Tassajara? Or whether you're in Tassajara, same thing, but we do have an atmosphere of practice here, so that helps us. But when you go out, you have to be the Zen mistress, master. You have to create a practice place wherever you are. So you take the Zendo with you. Wherever you are, that's where the zendo extends to. It's not just this little place. This little place helps you to understand that. You have teachers and so forth, precepts. But when you go out, you just meet the Wild West.

[35:30]

And so how do you tame it? How do you tame yourself? With living precepts. not just expecting everything to fall into order the way you'd like it to be. So he says, the most important point is to establish yourself in a true sense without establishing yourself on delusion. You live within delusion, but you don't establish yourself there. You establish yourself on enlightenment. And yet we cannot live or practice without delusion. Delusion is necessary, but delusion is not something in which you can establish yourself. If you do, then that's how you get lost. It's like a stepladder. Without it, you cannot climb up, but you don't stay on the stepladder. With this confidence, you can continue to study the way. That's why I say, don't run away. Stick with me. I don't mean stick to me. I mean stick with yourself, not with delusion. His language got a little mixed up there, but stay with my way.

[36:38]

Stay with the way. Stay with me and don't run away when you get a problem or if you think I'm being too hard on you or something. Stay with yourself. Stay with the practice. Sometimes I may be a delusion. You may overestimate me. Oh, he is a good teacher. That is already a kind of delusion. That's pretty good. I am your friend. I am just practicing with you as your friend who has many stepladders. We shouldn't be disappointed with a bad teacher or with a bad student. You know, if a bad student and a bad teacher strive for the truth, something real will be established. That is our zazen, and we must continue to practice zazen and continue to chew brown rice. Eventually, we will accomplish something. So that's very true about, we should be very careful not to idolize a teacher or discourage a student.

[37:44]

Sometimes, I remember one time, sometimes we say to the student, get out, but that doesn't mean that the student should leave. You have to understand, you know, the relationship between the student and the teacher. Sometimes it's very nice and compatible, sometimes very rocky. Sometimes the teacher will chastise the student and the student will want to leave, but doesn't mean that they should leave. Or even if they leave, it doesn't mean that they should stay away. So relationship between teacher and a student, if it's a real relationship, cannot be, just cannot be broken. Just like your practice, if you engage in practice for any length of time, you're always practicing no matter whether you think you are or not. Because there's no way you can't not practice. Even though you may think, there may be no way you can not practice.

[38:52]

Yeah. Do you have any questions? More? Okay. For me? Well, let's see, I think I've told most of my Sukhriyasi stories already, but I will tell you one. One time when I was starting to practice with him, I had gone to Sushin, and I remember I was just beginning to sit in full lotus.

[39:56]

And I sat through this whole machine in full lotus, except for the last five minutes before the bell rang. And I crossed my legs, and then the bell rang. And I thought, oh my God, you know, I didn't see it through. I gave up too soon. So when we used to file out Suzuki Roshi's door, and he would bow to everybody as they left. And I was the last person to leave. And I said to him, do you think I should continue practicing? I was kind of probing him in a way, you know, but I felt so bad. I needed him to tell me something. So he said, oh, what's the matter? Isn't it difficult enough for you? So that was a good turning point for me. Not bad. You were Shuso here, I believe, when the forms were introduced. Yeah. Yeah, I was Shuso. That is head monk for the practice period, 1970.

[40:58]

Winter. I think it was winter, 1970. And Hatsugami Roshi was, from Eheiji, was invited to be, lead the practice period. He had been the... the Ino at Eiheiji Monastery in Japan for about 10 years. And he was asked by Suzuki Roshi to come and develop Tassahara as a monastery. Because in 67 when we started, it was kind of monastic, but we hadn't really established the monastic practice in a traditional way. So Tatsugami Roshi established, little by little, the forms that we now practice in the way that we practice it pretty much.

[41:59]

Of course, little things change, but basically we're still doing the same practice that Tatsugami Roshi introduced in 1970. We didn't have the dough on Rio. We didn't have the kitchen Rio. Things were very different. He introduced a chanting style, which we don't practice anymore, and various other things. But basically, he created the formal practice that we do, kind of solidified it. Okay. Oh, okay. Satsikyavarsha had that word, independency. Yes. But he also many times used the word independent. Yes, there were various words. One word is independent. Another word is dependent. Another word is interdependent.

[43:00]

And he coined the word independency. Independency. Independent means independent, right? Not dependent. Dependent means dependent. Interdependent means everything depends on everything else. Independency means things have a tendency to be independent, but not quite. And things have a tendency to be dependent, but not quite. So our life falls in the middle. So because it's hard to define reality, it's called the middle way, where it's not quite this, not quite that. They're fuzzy. When I heard about fuzzy logic, I thought, I understand that perfectly. Life is fuzzy. But we want to define it, so we fall into definitions. Because that's the way it's easier to live within delusion when we have definitions for everything.

[44:02]

When we have definitions for everything, we say, oh, I know. Now I know. But we don't know. We only know our definitions. We only know as far as our definitions reach. So Suzuki Roshi was very careful not to define anything. And that's why Soto Zen is so difficult, or at least his understanding, because nothing is defined. And I'll talk about that tomorrow.

[44:30]

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