I'm going to go out and do what was the best decision I've ever done in six months. Are you all very tired?

[01:26]

Yes? No? Just checking. I'm glad that at least some of you weren't so totally wasted because I myself am feeling fine. which has something to do with the fact that I mostly slept for the last couple of days. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to be with you all. But I was kind of sick. And even though I basically slept, I was really tired. No matter how much I slept, I was still tired. But today I feel great. But those of you who are not feeling so great, I extend my sympathies.

[02:29]

And I do, really. I really do. And... Anyway, I think someone advised me some time ago that the main point of talking in the Zendo was to encourage practice. And is this working? Is this okay? So that would be my effort and my intention this morning. And I really appreciated the talks that have already been happening, all of which I did in fact listen to, either here or over there. And it did seem to me that everyone who spoke was really trying to bring forth the energy and intention of practicing for the benefit of others.

[03:52]

And today in particular, what I would like to talk about is receiving the precepts. So as I think you know, last week I went to an event called Jukai-e, a precept receiving ceremony. It was actually a five-day precept ceremony at Zen Shuji in Los Angeles. So I still have a very, it was a very encouraging and inspiring event for me, and I still feel it very strongly. So I'm thinking about the precepts a lot, and really wanted to talk with you about the importance of receiving the precepts. So a question that came up earlier this week was the question of who are you that is sometimes asked.

[05:05]

And I always wonder, it seems to me that that question can be a helpful question when you ask it of someone else, like going to someone. And I often have that kind of... question in my mind looking at someone like, who are you? Who is this person? And I actually think it's best to leave it unanswered, to just to have it as a question like, this person is a mystery. Who is this person? Just over and over again, who is this person? And I've always found that when I apply that question to myself, it's a big mistake. I mean, it's not so helpful. You know, I haven't found it helpful because the tendency is to answer it, right?

[06:07]

You should be able to answer it for yourself. I mean, that kind of would seem that way. And answering it is... going to fall into, is going to be very static. It's like, you know, I am so-and-so, I've had such-and-such education, or I live in such-and-such a place, or I have such-and-such a spouse or children or parents, or... education or, you know, this is my profession or whatever. And I think at times in my life I have really wanted to answer that and, you know, that I felt I needed, that was something to hang on to, like, well, if I'm okay if I can get these questions, you know, if I can get down the answers, the right answers. If I have the right answers, then I'm safe in some way.

[07:12]

It seems to me that all of these kinds of answers that we may give for ourself to that question really emphasize our separateness or our individuality. Like, I am such and such person as distinct from you or the other possibilities that there might be. at the Jukai, Akiba Roshi, who was kind of the director, I guess, of the whole event. I'm not sure what his official title was, but anyway, he gave He did speak some and also he wrote some things about receiving the precepts.

[08:23]

And one of the things that he wrote, he quoted a poem by Ryokan. I don't know where it's from exactly, but his translation was, if I'm asked what is human suffering, I respond, it is the mind that creates separation between oneself and others. If I'm asked, what is human suffering, I respond, it is the mind that creates separation between oneself and others. And we've been studying, particularly in the Samdhi Nirmocana Sutra, how that mind happens. How is it that the mind creates suffering? So I think we're all familiar with that kind of basic fundamental characteristic of the human mind that creates separation

[09:28]

between oneself and others. And Akiba Roshi talked about the importance of receiving the precepts as a way to bring up one's vow to understand the connection. between self and others, and to live one's life for the benefit of others. So that rather than emphasizing this side of separation, to see how do we live our life given this tendency. this inescapable tendency. Now what? How do I live my life? How do I see the connection that is also there? So another, a question that Dogen asks, which

[10:44]

for me is more helpful than the question of who are you for myself, something to ask myself, is do you venerate the three treasures or not? Do you venerate Buddha, Dharma and Sangha or not? Are you on the path or not? It's kind of like saying, what are you doing? What is your life? Another way of asking, what is your life? What is the functioning? Not who are you in a static sense, but what is the functioning of your life? Is this something that you do? Do you venerate? Do you respect? Do you have faith in? Do you uphold Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha or not? So the things that we usually...

[11:51]

take refuge in, like I mentioned before, our accomplishments or possessions and so forth. All of these things are impermanent, unreliable, unstable. They They may in fact be helpful, kind of a way to live our life, but if we put our reliance on them, we find at some point that they're gone, that they change. They're not there for us. So what is it that is there that we can always go back to? It seems to me that to shift our perspective from taking refuge in the things of our life that we can look at and describe to taking refuge in the three treasures is not simply a matter of like...

[13:08]

X rather than Y, you know, this thing rather than that thing. But it's really a different kind of perspective in our whole life. It's rather than picking out some particular things it's seeing that we're actually a part of Indra's net. So rather than placing ourself at some particular point or points in that net and saying, you know, these are the things that will support me, it's to see that entire constantly moving interconnection. So it's a very radical reorienting of our life. There's actually nothing that we can grasp, nothing that we can actually hold on to. So taking refuge in the three treasures is not just grabbing onto something, but it's actually a letting go

[14:20]

And I think earlier this week one of the talks, maybe Kosho, I'm not sure, brought up the heart that is broken. Was that you? Yeah? The heart that is broken, the heart that bleeds. This is, you know, it's funny how sometimes some theme comes up and then it just keeps coming back over and over. Anyway, that happens to me sometimes. And so this theme of the red heart is something that has been coming up for me in different contexts. And first it came up because Mako asked me to name, now this may sound silly to some of you or kind of strange, but I'll say it anyway and then I'll explain.

[15:28]

She asked me to name a chashaku for her. And I think that T students may understand that, but. Does everyone know what a chashaku is? No. It's a tea scoop. It's basically just a little spoon kind of made out of, well, in this case, bamboo. And there's this custom of giving a tea scoop a name, what's called a poetic name. And... It's a custom that began, I think, in maybe the 16th century or so. And earlier, tea scoops are kind of throw... This is my chance to talk about tea, which I... Actually, I wasn't planning to do this, but I can't resist.

[16:32]

So... So originally when tea came to Japan from China, tea was medicine, right? It is medicine. And so it was like in little medicine containers and with little ivory scoops to scoop it out. And then later, tea masters started sometimes carving their own tea scoops out of bamboo, which is a very cheap material, so it's sort of a throwaway. You know, you carve one and use it and then throw it away. And then I guess people, guests would say, well, if you're going to throw it away, why don't you give it to me? You know, it's kind of nice. And... And then also, let's see, Rikyu, I guess, gave a tea scoop to one of his disciples, Oribe, and after Rikyu was forced to kill himself, Oribe named the tea scoop, gave it a name.

[17:40]

He called it Namida, or Tears. And he put it in a little case and used it as an ehi. Do you know what an ehi is? It's a memorial plaque. Like in the Kaisando, we have a memorial plaque for Suzuki Roshi and one for Katagiri Roshi, those little plaques. And sometimes they're just plain wood. Anyway, so he used it. as an ehi, and its name was namida, tears. So there's this custom of giving a name to a tea scoop, which of course makes it a lot more interesting. So Mako carved a tea scoop a while ago and she asked me to name it. And I was thinking about names and I sort of, since I like tea scoops a lot and carving them and I really like this kind of custom, I had these names that...

[18:45]

Whenever I come across a nice poetic name, I kind of tuck it away. And it's kind of an obsession, you might say. But I think it's not unwholesome, but... anyway, so I you know kind of looked at some various possible names that that might work and you know, but keeping in mind that this was for Mako not for me and you know what might work for her and So I looked at these names and you know, this one was good and that one was good and then I came across this one Sekishin and sort of like there was this little pop and sort of this little emotional pop for me that was like, okay, that's it. So... And this is a phrase that... It occurs in various koans, you see, so it's a certified... You know, this is a certified Zen phrase.

[19:57]

Not something I made up. Anyway, so I told her the name, and I think she kind of... I'm not sure what she thought. But anyway, but she asked me about it, and so I had to think a little more about, well, what does this really mean? So looking it up in the characters, looking the characters up in the character dictionary, seki is red, and shin is heart. Basically, it's like red heart. Do you know sekihan, red rice? No. Anyway, it's very good. So it's the same character, seki, for red. and but in this case it's like red bleeding heart and um so this comes up in let's see should i tell you this case well first let me tell you why why i'm bringing it up here which is that the um so at this jukai ceremony on the

[21:18]

last day or the second to the last day when people actually received the precepts, they hung the hall with red cloth. So probably a lot of you know that this is done here when there's Dharma transmission ceremony. And I had no idea that this would be done in this context of lay people receiving the precepts. But... And it was like... It was like hundreds of yards of cloth. I mean, it was a huge, huge amount. And... But the entire... The entire place was... It's like you went away and then you came back and it was transformed. So they had... They had a whole chidenryo, you know, so like this whole crew of people, like stagehands, you know. I mean, chidens are sort of like stagehands, right?

[22:20]

They set the, they take care of everything. And so they had hung, you know, this huge amount of red cloth completely around the whole hall. And you got to sit in it. you were just there, sitting there for quite a long time while these various ceremonies and chanting and various things went on. And at that point, Anyway, I thought maybe later I'd talk more about the whole process, but most of the time I was, like the priests were mostly involved in actually doing the ceremonies, and lay people were kind of in... the audience, kind of. Zen shuji is sort of, it's like a church, I guess.

[23:21]

It's like there's an altar and then there are these pews where people sit, which is of course somewhat different from a traditional Zen temple where you would have just a vast tatami room. But So I think traditionally people would be sitting probably seiza for days. So in this case they got to sit on benches. So most of the time I was involved in the ceremonies and the lay people were sitting there. But for this particular part, the lay people were going up onto the altar and everyone else was basically just sitting and watching. But anyway, the point that I'm making simply is that it was just being in this red room for a long time, like for some hours, was very moving to me.

[24:25]

I just felt completely enclosed by this space. The person who was the instructing master, I guess, said in his talk that someone who does not tell lies has a red heart, sikhi shin. the mind that does not lie is very big. So in this case, it was symbolized by a red curtain. So I was thinking about that. So what does he mean by that? The mind that does not tell lies is very big and is symbolized by a red curtain. So what is the fundamental lie that we tell ourselves. So what is this mind that doesn't tell lies?

[25:27]

The fundamental lie is the lie of separation between ourself and others. The mind that creates or sees separation is a kind of lie. So the mind that is just open and naked and doesn't tell this lie is this red heart, Sekishin. Dogen Zenji, I think it was in Shinjin Gakudo, Body, Mind, Study, The Way, there's a phrase, straightforward mind, which I think is another translation of the same term, Sekishin.

[26:31]

And in that case, it's defined as undivided or selfless mind. Another translation is naked mind moment by moment. So just each moment, one moment after another, just continuously forever, the mind that is continuously open, open, naked. And in the first case of the Blue Cliff Record, I think you're all familiar with Bodhidharma coming to the West. What I want to talk about is the very end of the commentary. is commenting on Setsuo's verse.

[27:35]

And he says, Setsuo feared that people would pursue intellectual views, so he swung open the gate and brought out his own understanding, saying, give up recollecting. What limit is there to the pure wind circling the earth? That's another great name, pure wind. Sorry. So give up the thinking mind as if there could be a limit to the pure wind circling the earth. Once you give up recollection, what will become of the affairs you busy yourselves with? Satcho says, here and now, the pure wind is circling the earth. Throughout heaven and earth, what is there that is limited? So, as I was talking before about this question of who are you, is there a limit?

[28:41]

Do you really think that you can define yourself? Is there a limit to who you are? Sueju picks up the numberless concerns concerns of all ages and throws them down before you. This is not confined to Sway Du's time. What limit is there? All of you people, what limit is there on your part? Again, Suedu feared that people would grab hold at this point, so again he exposed his skill in a loud voice. He asked, is there any ancestor here? And he answered himself, there is. Suedu doesn't hesitate to bare his heart entirely for the sake of others. So again, this is this naked heart that in order to help others, in order to break through the limitations that we see between self and others, he was willing to cut through and open his heart completely.

[29:52]

So in this gathering, this Jukai container was created. for being able to receive the precepts. So people had left home, and I was thinking the whole time about being there and being in that event, and then the practice period here going on, and that was kind of like this little mini version You know, in a sense, this whole practice period is kind of an expanded, it's like a long retreat. That event was this very, you know, Basically, it was like a little mini retreat for lay people who could... Actually, the lay people who came were only there for three days, and the priests were there for five days.

[31:15]

But anyway, the whole thing was very short. But the basic elements... of it were quite similar to the elements of coming here for this practice period of leaving home, giving up your private space, your private activities, joining with others, spending a day of chanting, making offerings, reciting scriptures. listening to Dharma talks. So all these things were going on in order to make possible this taking of the precepts, taking refuge, joining in a communion, trying to understand what does it mean to actually have communion with Buddha. And

[32:18]

So one of the, I guess for me the main thing that really struck me was how this whole event was a question of really taking the precepts into your body. with your body, that it wasn't just a question of receiving the preset. It wasn't just the mind. So Dogen talks about studying the way with the mind and studying the way with the body. Even though you assume that people who come together to receive the precepts are already living basically a moral life, it's not like they're... violating the precepts and then all of a sudden they're going to stop, assume that they're already basically following the precepts, but what's the difference?

[33:39]

How is this a shift in their life? And it seemed to me that this whole ceremony was a kind of ritual reordering. I kind of had this image of... like a one huge massage going on, you know, like someone reaching in inside. I don't know, maybe this is too gruesome, but... Anyway, I keep having this image of this hand going inside the head and massaging, you know, or massaging your whole body and sort of... as close as that as you can get you know that by putting your body through these forms of bowing making prostrations that something happens that can't um you know just it can't happen otherwise um one point that i that really struck me was i think again this akiba roshi talking about doing full prostrations and how when you raise your hands you're

[35:04]

we lift Buddha's feet over our head. And I think I knew that. But I never quite had that... And I've talked about that, that when you raise your palms, you're lifting up Buddha's feet. But I never had quite the image before that it's not just that you're lifting Buddha's feet, but you're raising Buddha over your head. And somehow that just became so powerful for me. Not just raising up a little, but actually you're raising Buddha higher than your head. And so when you do that over and over again, somehow that... I don't know how to describe it.

[36:07]

I guess it's like, for me, this, again, the image of being in Indra's net. You know, like, where is your place? What is your relationship to Buddha that you can express it in that way through your body? So I saw the whole... saw this jukai as a kind of creation of a buddha field that people coming together and creating this kind of buddha field that people are then invited into and then going through this whole process which is kind of like growing a bodhisattva. How do you grow a bodhisattva? You leave home, you take on a kind of discipline, you repent, you take vows, and you

[37:20]

make a karmic connection and one way they described this was as in receiving lineage papers you have a karmic connection with the soto shu and when i first heard that i thought Like, what? Because I think of the sojishu as like this bureaucracy. You know, these offices and people and stuff. And it took me... And I had to think about it quite a while, and I realized, no, that's... Obviously, that's not what's going on. What we're talking about is the teaching. You know, the teaching of... It's a connection with the teaching that's been passed down from Dogen, that without receiving the precepts, this teaching wouldn't continue. It wouldn't have continued for hundreds of years.

[38:27]

in the way that it has, and it wouldn't continue from now on. But this is how it continues, how it's passed on from teacher to student, and how people support each other to practice in this way is through receiving the precepts. And then at the end of this whole ceremony, there were many congratulations and then questions and answers. So I thought this would be a good time to see if there are any questions, maybe answers, at least questions. Yes, Greg. A lot of ceremonies.

[39:37]

A lot of ceremonies. Offerings. Yeah, a lot of ceremonies. I never knew there could be so many ceremonies. Yes. chanting, reciting scriptures, you know, ceremonies, making offerings. Like I said, there was this enormous Chidinryo, and they just kept producing offerings, which were then offered. And then those would be taken away, and then there'd be more. And so... Traditionally, this is a seven-day ceremony, evidently. So it has been done in seven days. And then that can be reduced to five or three or two hours.

[40:41]

But yeah, when you do the long version, there's... And there were also some talks But it was very full. It was really full. Full days. Yes. Do you? Actually, I didn't.

[41:44]

I can imagine that one could in some... I guess, let's see... Usually I get bored if I don't understand what's going on and I feel separate from it. It's like so something is going on and I don't really get it and I'm just kind of watching it but it doesn't mean anything for me. They talked, well, basically what the ceremonies were was, so they chanted a lot of things that we're all familiar with, the Heart Sutra, Sando Kai, Song of the Jilmir Samadhi, in Japanese, of course.

[42:48]

they chanted something that I think most of us are probably not so familiar with called Shushogi, which I think is a kind of compendium of teachings of Dogen. So it's in that book that a lot of you have seen that's been published a couple of years ago by the Sotoshu that has English. Anyway, it's in there. And looking through it, a lot of it's familiar. And you can say, oh, yeah, that's from this fascicle or that's from that fascicle. So it's taken from different parts of Dogen. Anyway, that seems to be something that's recited a lot. And... There also was something called Tanbutsu, which was reciting the names of Buddha.

[43:54]

So it's like inviting all the Buddhas and ancestors to come. So they described the altar as Mount Sumeru, the abode of the Buddhas. And at the beginning of this whole event, you spend sort of setting the stage by inviting the Buddhas to come in and be present. So there was... That took a while. And it's circumambulating. And they also did this thing called shomyo, which is a very melodic chanting. And very beautiful. It's kind of like that little bit of melodic chanting that we do in the full moon ceremony. I think that would be called shoumyou. Anyway, so there was a lot, a lot of that.

[44:56]

And so I recorded a little bit of it, so maybe I can play it. Maybe I'll be able to find the time to play a little, just to give you some sense of what it's like. So it was exhausting. It wasn't boring, it was exhausting. Yes, Tova. Not too long ago, Reb was working with Archimio, showing us how to offer the Buddha tray, one way of offering it, and one of the dogs asked why we make offerings. And that question has been alive for me ever since then, and I wonder what your understanding is of why we make offerings. Well, since you've been thinking about it, do you want to say a little more? One aspect of making an offering for me is expressing gratitude.

[46:06]

The Buddha offering is expressing gratitude to Mathushri and the Buddha, all beings. We've had something to eat after. Yeah, well, could everyone hear? So, you know, giving, the paramita of giving is really important, and this is how we express So going back to the Ryokan poem, the mind that creates separation is the mind that creates suffering. So this is, in giving and making offerings, this is the mind that is expressing our connection.

[47:14]

So I don't think we can do it too much. I don't think, you know, there's no end to offerings that can be made. Sarah. I wish I could remember exactly, but the Sakyasin is also in Yidmo, in that festival and such. I'm just bringing it up because people want to look at it. My memory is that he's sort of talking about the immediacy, and that everything changes, like the rosy cheeks go away, and even the red heart breaks into pieces and falls away. And the footnote is that the red heart is sincere, effortful, Oh, thank you. I will look it up.

[48:16]

Sometimes I think it's also talked about in terms of bits and pieces, the bits and pieces of the heart, moment by moment, bits and pieces. John? So, oh, you asked us if we were... I don't feel tired, I just feel really sore. I feel so sore. And so I've been thinking about this karmic body a lot, you know, and how it is that Sashin just hurts, physically hurts. So I really appreciated the imagery of reaching in and this massage. It's really funny. You know, like a group massage.

[49:19]

Okay, I'll try and think of how that might be possible. You know, the other thing about the karmic body, I was thinking about the soreness of... Is this some kind of opening to the karma body and the dharma body? I don't feel like I want to reject the physical pain, as intense as it is. It feels like there is some teaching there. But what is it? Yeah, why is it so painful to just sit there? Why does that hurt so much? Would you like to rephrase that? Yeah, I guess there are quite many ways to say that.

[50:27]

What I notice is the holding. When pain comes up, what I notice is the grasping on, you know, the muscles grasping and the mind grasping and the clenching that's painful. So anyway, there's different kinds of pain, but that's what comes up for me. That sounds what? Given that, what do you have to steer by? Well, I think that's kind of the usefulness of this pain.

[51:54]

Because pain does come up and then that gives us the opportunity to examine and study what is the cause of this pain. Where is this coming from? And then we go to the Four Noble Truths. What is the cause of suffering and how do we seek the end of it? So I think we really start with our own experience, the experience of our actual life. Dogen talks about faith. Taking refuge in the three treasures, we start with faith. And I was hesitant to mention the faith word because no matter how much I study it, I still can't define it.

[53:08]

But there is faith. faith also comes up, um, that this, I guess sort of like this universe is not just me, you know, at least there's that, that much faith that, you know, there's pain and there's suffering and, uh, But it can break open. And there's faith that asking for help, there is some connection. There's this communion with Buddha. I think that's, anyway, that's what I find just nearby.

[54:15]

Bernd? In the context of you talking to us about this ceremony, I was reminded of this brief ceremony we had a little while ago, a well-being ceremony for your friend. And I feel I would like to ask you how she's doing. Oh, thank you. Well, she's dying. And... You know, at the... Now I may have a kosher moment. So at the end of this ceremony, like I said, there was a chance for questions.

[55:27]

And so we were asked... beforehand who would like to you know anyway you all know what a shosan ceremony is so that's that's basically that's what it was and we were asked beforehand who would like to ask a question so i said okay you know i raised my hand and said i'd ask a question and um I think just because I guess I was in some kind of a state. It just went out of my mind. You know, it was that red curtain, I guess. Anyway, I just... So I said I'd ask a question. So then we had to say beforehand what our question was for the translator. And so, I said I... So I thought, well, you know, I should keep it simple since it was going to be translated.

[56:41]

So I asked about this phrase, ikai komyo, which literally is something like one precept bright light. It's something I've thought about for a while. And then later, actually, my real question was about my friend. And... It's kind of like, how do I practice with this friend who's actually part of my family? I feel this connection that... She's just part of my family. So with her dying, you know, I wanted to ask something about what is it to practice the precepts with someone who's dying?

[57:47]

Something like that. But anyway, then it just seemed too complicated to translate. So I had to stick with my... what I had said, but actually it didn't seem so different. It seemed like it really this phrase, Ikaikomyo, one precept, like the light of one precept enveloping the universe includes everyone. Doesn't... And just, you know, each moment, breathing in, breathing out, Nothing is outside of that. So, anyway, I still haven't been able to talk with her because she's been asleep whenever I've called, but she evidently is...

[59:04]

she's not I guess there's this phrase actively dying so she's not in that phase as yet she's still intermittently up and about and so forth so I'm hoping to be able to visit with her anyway thanks for asking Judith Well, I don't know. Maybe I'll let you know. I guess, like I said, kind of the

[60:09]

maybe the main thing that I'm left with right now is this real bodily sense of the importance of ritual and how one takes it in through the body. So there's this Yeah, I hope so. But I don't know exactly how other than just, as I said, this really seeing it as a kind of physical practice that takes time.

[61:11]

And, you know, it would also be kind of like, you know, sometimes we have a precept ceremony like at the end of a sashin or at the end of practice period. So that, I think, is a very similar kind of feeling that you've, you know, gone through this intense practice that enables you to really open up completely. Okay. Anna? So, I'm going to practice this a little bit. When I came to Greenwich when I was 19, at first I wasn't so sure about the place and everything, but then... And then... And smell. Did you say smell, the way they smelled?

[62:16]

Smell. And so I asked Rev, I said, what do I need to do to become a priest? And he said, well, first of all, you have to go to Telsa Hara. So I came within a couple months. And I've been here ever since. And at first, I was still really sure I wanted to become a priest. And I can't really say why. clothes, I guess. I don't know. But just hearing you talk of priests away and precepts, I also feel like I'm, forgive me, I'm like a dancer trying to sit still here. So my question is, How long were you a wait person before you were a dean? How did you know you wanted to take a piano priest? And what's the difference between practicing the precepts, wearing a new kesa, and... Yeah.

[63:22]

Thank you. You know, those are all really important questions and they came up at this, actually one of the They had, there were like two or three afternoon talks for the priests about this event. And one of them, the Miyakawa Roshi, who was giving this talk, said there are three, let's see, three ways of... three different ceremonies of receiving the precepts. One was Dukkhai, receiving the precepts. One is shukei tokudo, we call priest ordination, and one is zaikei tokudo, which is what we call lay ordination.

[64:33]

And he described those as three different events. So, of course, we all said, what's the difference? What's the difference between jukai and... this what we call lay ordination and just basically he he he didn't really answer I mean it was very very hard to answer that and um I don't know maybe I shouldn't spend so much time on it now I'm not sure that that's exactly your question um what is your question yeah um What's your question? What's your question?

[65:37]

Yeah, well, there are several different questions there. One is about me, and one is about... But maybe one thing I could say that came out at this gathering that was really interesting was that the Japanese model, it's pretty clear... the difference between lay people and priests. And in our practice, it's actually not as clear. I mean, we're all basically doing the same practice here. You know, in this practice period, we're all kind of doing a monk's practice. And, you know, in the Japanese model, It's like there's what they call Danka, the parishioners, and there's priests. And the parishioners, by and large, don't sit zazen.

[66:53]

You know, sometimes they do, and there are lay sitting groups that might meet once a week or something, so I'm not saying that they never do. But the model mostly is that you have lay people who support the temple, and then you have priests who carry out the rituals. And, you know, it's a pretty clear difference. And that's not the way, it's very different for us. So, in a way, it becomes a much more complicated, you know, maybe agonizing question. They're like, well, should I be ordained or not? Because, you know, because you can practice... You're already doing this practice as a lay person, so should I be ordained as a priest? So it's very, very different for us, and I never quite saw it that clearly.

[67:58]

Even in this ceremony, like I said, the priests for the first two days were kind of doing this ceremony on behalf of the lay people who didn't have time to do the five-day ceremony. That's kind of how they described it, that like, okay, we're going to do a five-day ceremony, but since all you people who are receiving the precepts have busy lives and can't come here for five days, we're going to start it two days before you come. And, you know, and then you'll join in when you arrive. So that, you know, that's how it was. So... Yeah. Anyway, I don't feel so comfortable right now talking about my own turnings. I don't know if it's so interesting to people and it's kind of getting late, but... So maybe some other time. Denny?

[69:01]

Thanks, ma'am. I think... I guess in listening to all this, what comes up for me a little bit in reaction is... Like, what do we need all this religion for? It starts sounding very complicated and elaborated and maybe too much for me. And priest, and I mean, that whole distinction really sours my mood. I mean, for me, it does. I mean, it's... So, what do we need all this religion for anyway? Yeah, I thought something like that might be happening. What do you think? I don't think we need it, to tell you the truth.

[70:01]

What is it that we need? A clear heart. Yeah. So I think, so my understanding of all this stuff is, what is for me is that it's a way to enter into that clear heart. And I think, you know, like Ryan's question is, well, does it get boring sometimes or too much or whatever? Yeah, I'm sure sometimes it does. I mean, there's definitely that possibility that it becomes kind of, you know, could become like a sour heart or a... Or form without... Yeah, form without...

[71:07]

without meaning, without heart, without love. Yeah, that definitely can happen. So then you throw the whole thing away. This is called reformation, right? You get rid of all, you know, kill the priests, you know, burn... Burn all the robes. Burn the Buddha. You know, get rid of all that brocade and stuff and start over again. And how do you start over again? You start over by bowing and lifting up Buddha, you know, invoking the Buddhas. revering, you know, paying homage to the Buddhas, and then you want to make offerings to the Buddha, and then you start all over again. So, yeah, I think it's always questionable and risky business.

[72:19]

It's really risky business. So you have to find kind of what's the... What's nourishing? What's nourishing to the heart? And keep looking at that. What is it that's nourishing? And maybe that's partly what has to do with why some people become priests and others don't, is that some people kind of find the stuff more nourishing. you know, to be involved in it and, you know, to wear the robes and to walk around mumbling and chanting is somehow nourishing, you know. So... Okay?

[73:29]

Is that enough? Thank you all very much.

[73:34]

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