I vow to chase the truth that's up to target us worse. Oh, actually, let's say our names because I know there's a number of new people. So if we could just go around. First, who we're going to recite today are Paula. Did I hear Paula's name? So Paula isn't here. Sunchild, Tova, Ariel, and Greg. So whenever anyone's ready. I'd like to wait until next week. Okay. I take refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in Dharma. I take refuge in Sangha. I vow to embrace and sustain right conduct.

[01:04]

I vow to embrace and sustain all good. I vow to embrace and sustain all beings. A disciple of Buddha refrains from killing. A disciple of Buddha refrains from taking what is not given. A disciple of Buddha refrains from misusing sexuality. A disciple of Buddha refrains from intoxicating the mind and body of self and others. A disciple of Buddha refrains from lying. A disciple of Buddha refrains from speaking of others' faults. A disciple of Buddha refrains from praising self at the expense of others.

[02:10]

A disciple of Buddha refrains from clinging even to the Dharma. A disciple of Buddha refrains from harboring ill will. A disciple of Buddha refrains from abusing the three treasures. Say, who are they again? I take refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in Dharma. I take refuge in Sangha. I vow to embrace and sustain right conduct. I vow to embrace and sustain all good. I vow to embrace and sustain all beings. A disciple of Buddha does not kill. A disciple of Buddha does not take what is not given.

[03:17]

A disciple of Buddha does not intoxicate the body or mind of self or others. A disciple of Buddha does not misuse sexuality. A disciple of Buddha does not harbor ill will. A disciple of Buddha does not slander. A disciple of Buddha does not praise self at the expense of others. A disciple of Buddha does not abuse the three treasures. A disciple of Buddha does not praise self at the expense of others. A disciple of Buddha does not harbor ill will.

[04:26]

There again? I think a disciple of Buddha does not lie and is not possessive of anything. Oh, possessive of anything. Do you want to just say those two? A disciple of Buddha does not lie. A disciple of Buddha is not possessive of anything. Possessive of anything would be the same as clinging to anything, even the Dharma? Yeah. I'd like to wait. Wait? Okay. Thank you all very much. Thank you. So, next week, Tova and Ariel and Paula, if she's here, hopefully. And is there anyone else who'd like to recite next week? Suzanne? Kendra?

[05:33]

Okay, maybe that'll be enough. But I think it's good to have a couple extra in case people aren't here. Okay. So, last week we talked about taking refuge in the Three Treasures. And after I left class, I realized that there was something, a point in my life, a point that I just wanted to be sure and make. But I just wanted to hear if there's any questions anybody had about last week or thoughts that came up around taking refuge that you want to, that we can talk about before we move to the Three Pure Precepts. Do you think it's harmful to take a vow without full understanding of your vow,

[06:43]

even if it's wholesome? I don't think it's harmful. In fact, I was just reading Katagiri Roshi today. It's on the reading list. By the way, I've got more reading lists if anybody hasn't gotten a reading list. Let's see. Returning to Silence. Let's see, what does it say? Katagiri Roshi, Returning to Silence. There's just a little section on the Triple Treasure and the Three Pure Precepts. This, Allison, anybody else? I mean, excuse me, Suzanne, anybody else? I'll just put these out here for people. Anyway, he, and Suzuki Roshi too, basically says, even if you don't understand these, you receive them, you know.

[07:46]

Even before you fully understand, you should take them, you should receive them. So, I don't think it's unwholesome. Because they're actually inconceivable in some way. You can't ever really fully plumb the depths of taking refuge or the other precepts. So, if you wait until that time, you know, you'll never do it. So, the feeling is to just plunge in with wholesome mind, just like you said. Then why is there a sort of waiting period before taking the precepts? Well, that's a good question, because I know there are in various groups, you walk in and there's an initiation very soon in some lineages where you receive precepts right away or it doesn't take... There isn't any kind of waiting period.

[08:53]

And I think part of the understanding here would be that it's a mutual event between the preceptor and the person. And included is sowing the robe and receiving the name. And the ceremony seems to be more meaningful for people the longer they've... The more they know the person who's giving them the precepts, for one, makes it more meaningful. And the more they've wrestled, maybe isn't the word, but turned the precepts and reflected on them and talked about them. So that somehow makes the ceremony more meaningful as well. So, I think those are some of the reasons why it's evolved that way here.

[09:54]

That it's more meaningful and beneficial for the person. But on the other hand, you know, I think one has to be careful that there be set up some kind of a feeling that someone might be refused the precepts or something like that. I don't think it's that as much as creating a field that's most meaningful. Maybe other people have a sense, just from their own waiting periods or their own, about it. Well, I'm just having that experience now as I'm sowing the rock soup. That it's each stitch, you know, in each place of where I'm doing it. Whether I'm in the sowing class or today, I was at 850 Bryant, my jury duty, waiting.

[10:59]

And every experience in every place that I've taken it and done a little bit of the sowing, it's helping me to look at my own situation, look at the experiences, and think about what it is that I am looking forward to in the ceremony or my life, you know, ever. So I guess I focus in a different way than if I'm sitting on the pillow meditating. So it gives me another opportunity to kind of look at what it is that I'm saying that I'm committing to. You know, because we do sow our own robes, and also Dogen, you know, Dogen, right at the end of his life, sowed a robe for Ejo, his disciple, you know. A hand sowed a case, I think, for Ejo. So this practice of sowing our own robes, which was passed down to us, also, you know, gives a kind of waiting period as well through that sowing process. But just in thinking about it a little bit more, Jeanette,

[12:05]

I think it also gives a person a chance to clarify their own intentions if there's a kind of waiting time. It's not infrequent that people will talk about being drawn to getting a rock suit, to wear a rock suit, not even knowing, well, like I told you my story, you know, I want one of those, whatever it is. And there's a story about Yvonne Ran wearing one of these, after a particular ordination, it was suggested that people wear them all the time, you know, whatever you're doing. And she was at Macy's and someone said, hey, that's pretty cute, does it have pockets? A new fashion statement. So this waiting time just allows you to actually see what it is. Back to the three refuges, I have a suggestion, if anyone is looking for a good essay,

[13:11]

I've been reading through Pema Chodron's The Wisdom of No Escape, and there's a really wonderful essay in there called, I think, Just the Refuges, which is really helpful in clarifying them for me. I don't think that's in our, I think it came out after the book, after this was put together, so I think we should have an updated. Actually, wherever I'm looking, in Lama Surya Das's book, there's stuff, I mean, you can find, I think we need to have a new kind of gleaning of all the different things about precepts. The heart of being? Who's that? Ah, yes, that's right. And there's a particular, Ray Xeroxed something for me on his rendition of the precepts in the environment as precepts of the environment. Well, the point that I had wanted to make last week in particular that I realized I hadn't emphasized was, and it was so fresh, I scribbled it down as soon as I got back up to my house,

[14:17]

and so it doesn't feel as burning an issue as it was last week, but basically what I wrote, what I scribbled down was bringing the understanding into everyday life. So what I felt didn't get conveyed or emphasized enough was that, what we talked about, the indivisible three treasures, you know, the one precept of emptiness, and then the manifest three treasures are, you know, the person who realizes that, and the maintaining, the part about bringing that understanding into your everyday life. So, and the phrase that occurred to me was, there's no place to spit. It comes from a koan, I think. But basically the idea is to think that there's some place, you know, that you can,

[15:21]

using spit in terms of, you know, like, well that place doesn't matter, there's no place to spit. So, like, when we were talking about you can't pick up a stone, you know, to think that you're picking up a stone separate from, then where are you? You put yourself outside. In that same way, whatever it is that you do is this manifestation of your understanding of emptiness or of the one precept. And so this emphasis in our lineage in particular about carefully doing things and attention to detail, and like not moving your zabaton with your foot, you know, not kicking your zafu into place, kicking your zabaton around with your foot. But the emphasis on doing everything with the mind that understands that this is the entire universe, you know, you're straightening your zabaton, and it's the entire universe. So you put your total heart, mind, attention into each action.

[16:24]

So there's no place where you can kind of spit, you know, there's no place that's not that way. Where can you find such a place? So the precepts and everyday life and zazen mind is all one thing, and you express this through this careful attention to detail, attention to everything you do. And the same emphasis, like certain things don't get extra, extra, and other things don't get any. So in Dogen, like in the Tenso Kyokan, in the instructions to the head cook, you know, it talks about handling the rice and the water as if it were your own eyes, not your own eyesight, but actually your own eyes. With that much care, you handle the food and the water and all the things of your life. And it's not just being goody, goody two-shoes, you know, which some people call me.

[17:30]

It has to do with your understanding that this rice is, it's when you truly understand that rice as itself is not rice, therefore we call it rice. So you handle it with that. So I just wanted to emphasize, and this is a quote from Suzuki Roshi, the purpose of precepts is not just to remember what you should or shouldn't do. The way we observe precepts is by practicing Zen or by extending our practice to our daily life. So this emphasis and weddedness, marriage of precepts and everyday activity, not separate. So that was one point I just wanted to be sure and make. Was there a hand up? Well, you know, there's so much more to be said about the refuges

[18:36]

and the practice of taking refuge, but I would like to move to the three pure precepts. So the three pure precepts, there's lots of different translations of them, and we heard two different translations tonight. So I wanted to just, and I want to hear from you how you relate to these. I just wanted to say some of the different translations. When I first came to Zen Center, the translation was, I vow to refrain from all action that creates attachment. I vow to live in enlightenment. I vow to live for the benefit of all beings. And also in the meal chant, where it says, the first portion is to avoid all evil, how we say that now,

[19:38]

the second is to do all good, the third is to save all beings. That used to be in the meal chant, the first portion is for the precepts, the second is for the practice of samadhi, the third is to save all beings, and that got retranslated. So another one is, I vow to refrain from all evil. I vow to make every effort to live in enlightenment. I vow to live and be lived for the benefit of all beings. And I vow to embrace and sustain right action. I vow to embrace and sustain all good. I vow to embrace and sustain all beings. So those are all different ways of translating this. And there's an even earlier version out of which those all come, which is in the Dhammapada. Are you all familiar with the Dhammapada? It's a real classic that's been translated.

[20:40]

I've read it many times. This is a really yellowed copy, and I found this in here. January 1st, 1980. Dear Sanzen student, we used to have all the students that were students of the abbot, there were so many students that certain students had to be delineated as ones that could have doksan, and then you had to request to be a Sanzen student, and then you were a doksan student. And if you didn't, you could come to lectures and do certain things, but you didn't have doksan because there were so many students. So, dear Sanzen student, recently I've been enjoying reading and studying the Dhammapada, particularly the feeling of this translation and its interesting introduction. For New Year's, I want to give each of you a copy so that you can enjoy this essential teaching. Sincerely, Zen Tatsu. That's Zen Tatsu Baker. So, this is really... Wow. A relic. A relic, yeah. So, in the Dhammapada,

[21:43]

the earliest translation of these same three precepts, and this is early wisdom school, old wisdom school, rather than new wisdom or Mahayana. So, in the chapter called The Buddha, it's basically saying, By what earthly path could you entice the Buddha, who, enjoying all, can wander through the pathless ways of the infinite? The Buddha who is awake, whose victory cannot be turned into defeat, and whom no one can conquer. So, how can you entice the Buddha to come? Because the awakened one can basically wander and do whatever. So, a rare event is the arising of a Buddha. And then it says, Do not what is evil. Do what is good. Keep your mind pure. So, that's the earliest kind of rendition of these three pure precepts,

[22:44]

is do not what is evil, do what is good, keep the mind pure. And then in the Mahayana, when the emphasis, or the ideal practitioner, the shift of the Bodhisattva vow came into play, then it shifted to, and save the many beings, or live for the benefit of all beings. So, those are the three pure precepts, and I'd like to hear from you, just how, in the same way that we did last time, just hearing how people relate to that, or practice with those, or have difficulties with the wording, or, you know, just... Yes, Ray? What I've read in recent translations includes a lot of emphasis on precepts, and temple rules, and regulations, and all these,

[23:44]

you know, vocal observances, different customs and stuff. Thank you, I forgot to say that. Yes, the first precept of avoiding evil, or right conduct, can also be translated as to uphold the rules and regulations, or the ceremonies and rituals, Zen ceremonies and rituals. So, and those are equated with, you know, right conduct, or not, or wholesome activity. If you, it's interesting to think, if you just do, you know, just completely do the schedule, and do these things, the things that are being asked of you to do in the monastery, that is, in effect, avoiding evil, or not creating attachment, you know. Is attachment, any attachment, considered evil?

[24:49]

Well, when you say attachment, what do you mean? Or what, can you say attachment then? When we say attachment, is it, any attachment, is it comparable to evil? Or is it, you say, don't do anything evil, and don't attach yourself to anything, to any environment. So I'm wondering, when one uses every attachment to anything, is it considered evil? If there's that, you know. Well, we often, you know, the classic one that comes up is, well, I'm very attached to my children, right? Or something like that? Yeah. Constant battle against our ego, our attachments, our desires, our every, that's what I wonder, every desire that comes, that one clings to, has to be pushed away as, you know,

[25:53]

if there's something more elementally evil, and then there's attachments, and then we develop it. Yeah. Well, we don't like to hear that all clinging is, all clinging or craving is based on ignorance, ignorance of a separate self. So when you believe in the separate self, then you want to get things for it, or keep things away from it. So all the clinging and attachment, keeps us separate, and perpetuates this delusion, basically. But I think within that, you know, you can have an attachment to chocolate sundaes or something,

[26:55]

and you can have attachment to, you know, beating people up, or, I mean, you can, there's, I think, a range of our attachments, and you can also, but I think to actually be aware that I am clinging to these things, there is clinging here. And often with children, this came up in, in a workshop recently, that I was co-leading, and the question came up about attachment to their children. This person was very attached to their children, would do anything for their children, and so they didn't want to give up that attachment, and Tova was there, and the, and Susan was there, too, and my take on that was that she was talking about love. She was, she loved her children, but attachment to children is kind of extra. It's just all you need is, all you need is love. The attachment part is extra,

[28:00]

and we'll get into smothering and clinging and not allowing them to grow, and so how can you love someone without attachment? So, so the attachments that feel right, usually because you feel the love, you should be able to love without clinging to it. That's, that's the effort. You just have to love them without clinging to the problem. Instead of saying, it's evil, this is an evil thing. So, I had a problem thinking that every attachment, if it felt right, was evil, but it wasn't, because it's, it's love and, unattached love, not of which I am home. Yes. Well, we, first of all, we have a lot of trouble with the word evil, which is why I think in the early days, I mean, we couldn't get away with saying evil, you know, in the 60s, so it was, I vow to refrain from all action that creates attachment

[29:01]

was a way of kind of getting around it without actually saying, you know, refraining from evil. What is evil? And, you know, we brought the word back in partially to divest it, divest it of its, you know, what? It's what? Charge. Charge, and what? Connotations. Connotations, and yeah, to just get it out there. What is evil here when we're talking about evil? So, and also in the meal chant where it said the first portion is for the precepts, when it's actually the first portion is to avoid all evil. The first bite of your food is dedicated to, we said the precepts, because the precepts are all geared towards wholesomeness, and basically, not more than wholesomeness, but the precepts are geared towards, so we said precepts, which also kind of was fudging. So now it's kind of out there more,

[30:02]

you know, refraining from evil. But still, I think probably a lot of you get the jitters when you hear it. I'm getting a little inured myself, but, yes? Can you say that again, the altered translation to refraining from evil? The one that we used to have? Yeah. I vow to refrain from all action that creates attachment. There's lots of hands up here. Let's see, there was Mimi. No, I was scratching her back. Oh, okay. I'll scratch her neck. Dory? Do you know anything about the origins of the word evil? I was wondering if that would maybe help clarify a more historical meaning of the word evil. patriarchal Judeo-Christian Helen Brimstone. I really should know,

[31:03]

but I don't right now. But maybe somebody else does what the Sanskrit is. I have something. The Narman. Good. Oh, good. The Hebrew word for evil is more or less unmindful. Like what? That's what's about evil. It's spelled backwards. Oh, wow. It's like living back, you know, like that which is opposed. Did everybody hear that? That's cool. So unmindful, unskillful, unwholesome, meaning tending towards not a whole action. Let's see, there were some other hands. There was Ariel and Nora. Kevin, go Ariel. I have some problems with the word evil, I think. I see that as not being inclusive of all things. Like you were saying,

[32:04]

there's nowhere to sit. There is no evil. How can there be an evil? How can there be a place where there's evil? That's what I'm kind of wondering. Let's hold that in the air for a while, okay? Nora? My question now sort of links up with his, which is I was supposed to say more on the word avoid. And it seems like you were talking about precepts and dominant mind being the same earlier. But this wording seems more like precepts would be or just this avoiding evil would be more like something you have to get back or something that you have to watch yourself for getting into more and more. Okay. Yes? Along the same lines,

[33:05]

I think refraining from something is very, very different than embracing and sustaining something. Embracing and sustaining sounds wonderful to me. It's proactive. It involves volition toward good as opposed to stepping backwards from bad. And embracing sounds great. You can embrace concept or embrace something. Oh, yes, Kevin? I was thinking about attachment and someone was a little fuzzy about what you said so I'm going to check out a bit. One thing that I remember hearing somewhere about attachment is like when you like putting things in boxes like when we like if you put your children in a box if you put your children in a box then you're not really loving them you're just having them there in a box

[34:07]

like you're identifying your children as this. The second you say like I love my child my child is this and this and this and this like all these things and then the second your child is not those things you don't love your child no, that's not it that's just your attachment to those other parts of it that's just your own stuff I don't think I'm being clear. Like love in and of its own nature is like a beautiful thing but the second you try and identify it specifically like you can get lost in that maybe? I don't think I'm being clear. Well, I think you're accurate I think there's often situations where it's conditioned

[35:10]

love you love them as long as that's what you do or not getting in trouble or da da da and that's the kind of attached you're attached to them being a certain way and when they're not then there's so yes, I think you know what is unconditioned love and what is love that's based on all these conditions and devotion is the same way to be thoroughly devoted just the way they are and what does that mean what comes out of that or you're devoted to them if they're doing what you want them to do or look like or all the rest of it so that's where attachment gets in there Let's see, there is other hands David and then Jeff I've got this word evil

[36:11]

like Ariel was saying the idea of nowhere to sit I think that I think the way that the precepts gets around that making that not problematic is that it's not saying go out and tell others that what they're doing is evil it's more this whole turning the light inward and seeing what appears evil in one's own actions and to avoid it that way so that somehow to me that doesn't that removes like a judgment it's more like this kind of feels yucky somehow maybe according to the precepts it just feels that way so I'm not going to do it and then it's something else I forgot but anyway it's not a judgment it's just a guide I'm not sure I understood everything you said but not doing evil

[37:16]

is not a judgment on other people and their actions it's a personal thing and you know when you've crossed that line because you actually feel it in your body you said you feel yucky you actually you know it and nobody can necessarily tell you one way or the other you know so in that way you actually like what Karen was saying that way you're embracing sustaining right conduct it's not like you're going oh God doing this is like the worst thing it's just like I feel I'm just going to keep not doing this and by doing that you avoid all evil and you know whatever as far as you want to think I'll separate okay thank you Jeff coming on the heels of avoiding all evil or embracing right conduct

[38:18]

I had a little trouble going on to the idea of doing all good I wasn't getting a very good feel for that you said when the earlier translations was living in enlightenment and when you started sort of start thinking about living in harmony with the natural order but I was wondering how you understood doing all good coming after embracing I just wanted to say I just wanted to read these after the pure precepts are read then there's a little commentary here so the first one is I vow to refrain from all evil or refrain from all action that creates it or whatever

[39:18]

and the commentary is it is the abode of the law of all Buddhas it is the source of the law of all Buddhas and then the one about doing all good or living in enlightenment it is the teaching of Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi and that's the utmost right and perfect enlightenment Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi it is the teaching of the utmost right and perfect enlightenment and the path of the one who practices and that which is practiced that's the commentary on doing all good and the steps that the person who practices that takes and that which is practiced and what it is that they do with this mind of unexcelled enlightenment or bodhi or awakening that's good that's what good is but it's different from good and bad

[40:19]

I think that's one of the things about the pure precepts even the word pure immediately sets up pure and impure, pure and defiled but pure in this case is pointing to thorough or like pure gold which I talked about in another lecture one day sitting lecture thorough thorough unadulterated unmixed unmixed with anything else that kind of pure is what we're talking about when we're talking about pure precepts rather than this is pure and then another way to be is defiled so when we say good it's not in terms of good and bad it's kind of the ultimate good which comes out of the awakened mind

[41:21]

that's the vow that you're taking these are pure precepts but receiving these precepts or taking these precepts is like a vow we call them pure but we say I vow so it's it's a vow that we take internally internally and externally and we may not now this goes back to Janette's question we may not know how to do good what is good in this undualistic way or what is avoiding evil or what are they actually talking about so it's a vow to actually it's one more way of vowing to realize your enlightened nature because these precepts come out of the enlightened mind or this vow comes out of an enlightened understanding and in the ordination you're asked when you receive these and after you receive them then it says even after you have attained Buddhahood

[42:23]

will you still maintain and uphold these precepts and you say yes I will this is not you know this is not just for kind of for a time until you've had some some awakening and then you can do what you want this is what the enlightened ones that's what they do the vow okay let's see Brick and then Laura and then Rain I'm going to write these names down Brick, Laura, Rain You just started to touch on it I've been thinking for the last few minutes the way the precepts are stated many of these translations seem to go against the grain of the earlier lectures I heard by Rabbi Silberman which was he was saying

[43:23]

I can't do good what you can do is be upright and good results so I'm saying I've got to do all good when you can do good things you can help people across the street whatever in the larger sense of it I'm saying without getting into attachments or other hindrances to it and avoiding evil also seems to apply in facing things fully what's the benefit of avoiding evil if it means turning away from it that seems to be very counterproductive like in Emma's lecture last week she talked about face the pain don't run away from it it's just an amputation it could be considered an amputation of something evil

[44:24]

that's causing the pain so why are we vowing to avoid it I also have difficulty with the word avoid since we so in so many cases in almost all other cases we say don't avoid don't run away from anything pain or your own emotional states stay there so in this in one of those translations that's what it is so my preference I actually like the embrace and sustain right conduct actually I'm as the latest one that's the one that I'm most comfortable with because I think the avoid I don't think they're actually saying run away from but in what Ariel brought up about is there any evil I think there's also a great danger in thinking that there isn't anything

[45:25]

evil meaning harmful, unwholesome that causes suffering to think that there isn't such a thing in the in the mind of the awakened one you know there is no coming or going no increase or decrease no good or bad you can say that but before that time if we a grave kind of mistake about karma and karma consequences and living in samsara so so in ultimately speaking you know we can say you know there's no good or bad

[46:28]

non-dualistically but before that time if you think dualistically about everything else like self see the thing about that the enlightened mind is is they don't do evil meaning they don't harm others or because there is no other there so to actually think that you could harm somebody else to believe that there is evil that could be done or no evil that could be done is those are the two extremes so it's it's not clear enough about this point but I feel pretty strongly about it so anyway I don't know maybe other people have something more to say about that but let me just leave that where it is and go on to can't read my writing Laura Laura

[47:29]

when I was with you I remember when you said that by following the schedule we automatically follow the two steps and mine went but wait the schedule is created by human beings and what I do within that schedule is following different people's directions of using products that came from places I don't know where they came from but then when you said about the thoroughness about pure being and thorough being pure and thorough and I thought well if you mean by following the schedule where you automatically follow the precepts because we're theoretically being mindful all the time everybody is being mindful then everyone would be being thorough yes

[48:32]

if you're going through the motions of the scheduling and not throwing yourself into it you know fully with full intention to wake up at every moment with whatever you're doing the the rituals and ceremonies and rituals of Zen are all tools to help you to wake up so I think that's more what I meant and within that of course we grumble and gripe and all that I wouldn't necessarily say even grumbling and griping is not following the precepts if you know you're grumbling and griping and renounce grumbling and griping and vow to or rededicate yourself to you know who is to say

[49:33]

exactly what precept you're breaking or not breaking if you're very clear and not lying to yourself about you hate this you know is there any precept that's being broken I don't know so I don't think we want to fall into the kind of goody-goody two-shoes thing which is very easy to fall into especially around doing the ritual and all the forms you know what did that person say? sometimes I wonder how I am using my time as someone else has told me to use my time but you know maybe there's all these ways out there that would be a better use of my time all these problems out there in the world that I should be using my time to fight against or do something but here I am following the schedule that somebody else has made for me to do yes

[50:34]

that was kind of my the concern that came to my mind yeah well you know having doubts about what you've gotten yourself into you know or what is this the best use of my time and energy having a doubt about that while you're throwing yourself into it is not unproductive or is not undermining in any way corrosive doubt you know there's doubt and there's corrosive doubt that eats away at your you know where you end up saying you just give it all up even though you've made a strong made a commitment and you just kind of it eats away at just your own resolve so I think there's two kinds of doubt there but to have some doubts about is this the best use of my time am I certain am I waking up on every moment here is this the most beneficial situation for me

[51:35]

at this time those are all questions that arise and should be looked at but and yeah who's you know throwing yourself in just like throwing yourself into the precepts you know plunging into the bow or plunging into this you know washing the windows for the 90th time or whatever what can you find out about you know your own energy your own attachments your own sense of self and resentments and I should be this and that and they're not treating me right and all this stuff self self self centered and selfishness of the practice period usually is you know so so seeing all that and letting go of clinging to self

[52:37]

so that to me is all embracing and sustaining you know right conduct but it's not always see there's a kind of you know it hurts you know there's some pain involved especially looking at our own clinging in our own you know difficulties and habits and all this there's some pain there bitterness the precepts have a kind of bitter pill quality sometimes you know right and um something I think about a lot is how the precepts are usually stated in a negative way so like in the Theravada tradition the precepts only go as far as do not kill and in the Bodhisattva precepts those ones that really you know actually encourage life and actually practice giving

[53:38]

or to promote beneficial sexuality or whatever going along the line and when I first when I first saw the Theravada precepts I assumed oh this is like remedying that to make it more explicit not only do you avoid all evil but you actually practice all good and now the way it's being stated I don't understand how it works like when you put the precepts in to avoid all evil it just makes it sound like it's just a negative statement don't do this instead of also stating to avoid all evil you know what I'm saying um let me see if I understood what you said so the Theravada precepts are all in the negative without any kind of positive how you practice with them sort of and you're saying that's why you like these precepts the Bodhisattva precepts but the pure precepts are in that kind of negative at least the first one

[54:41]

avoid all evil you're asking sort of how come or yeah or is that actually a good translation yeah to put the precepts in to embrace and sustain the precepts do not what is evil yeah do what is good and also what is the second one because it seems still kind of doesn't really seem to be related directly to the precepts yeah I mean in that statement it does yeah well I think the thing about Samadhi was that Samadhi was equated with kind of all good you know in a kind of interpretive that's not the real translation the real translation is closer to what it is now but because of this difficulty it was just skirted

[55:46]

so you know do the precepts and do Samadhi or refrain from attachments and live in enlightenment but it wasn't an actual translation as much as interpreting it in some way that was a little more palatable palatable yeah so I think the closer translation is to embrace and sustain the right contact all good and all beings that so do you think that actually is addressing that problem so it states like with regard to our relationship with other beings so the first to avoid all evils to avoid harming beings and the second one to do all good is to benefit all beings that's kind of like a restatement of the third or you know see what I'm saying I'm still having problems seeing like there's this one

[56:46]

this one this one or what do they all refer to well they're all I find that they're all just like the three refuges are kind of one thing and you look at it from different ways the three pure precepts are also in the Platform Sutra and also Dogen talks about the pure precepts as being well I'll read to you have you all heard of the three bodies of Buddha the Dharmakaya and the Sambhogakaya and the Nirmanakaya these three pure precepts are equated with becoming the body of Buddha that's one of the things that so in the Platform Sutra this is a sutra that anyway there's a lot of talk about I mean it's this isn't this is an apocryphal kind of a sutra

[57:49]

but at any rate of the six ancestors and he talks about it was given on a platform an ordination platform and he's talking about good friends you must all with your own bodies receive the precepts of formlessness that's these pure ones and recite in unison what I'm about to say it will make you see the threefold body of the Buddha in your own selves I take refuge in the pure Dharmakaya Buddha in my own physical body I take refuge in the ten thousand hundred billion Nirmanakaya Buddhas in my own physical body I take refuge in the future perfect Sambhogakaya Buddha so the avoiding all evil is put together with Dharmakaya and the Dharma as the law you know or the truth the truth as the way things are suchness so avoiding all evil

[58:49]

or embracing and sustaining right conduct has to do with Dharmakaya and this profound understanding of the truth and then the the doing all good is the Sambhogakaya Buddha Sambhogakaya is the bliss body or the the body of it's kind of the happiness body actually of practice is called Sambhogakaya Buddha so doing all good is equated with happiness really and then the saving all beings is the manifestation of the transformation body or the body that appears in all different times in different ancestors and teachers this is Nirmanakaya Buddha in all these different situations and transformation body which helps all the beings all over so so it's three bodies of the Buddha and these three pure precepts

[59:50]

but it's one awakened one with these three aspects so I think you're right they all reflect on each other and uphold each other and illuminate each other what is the source? this is the platform sutra of the sixth patriarch or ancestor this is Jan Polsky this is from this is an old book 67, Copyright 67 the thing about that is I think it's useful you go too far but I've seen the same thing with the three treasures I'm trying to pin something down but maybe it isn't pinned down well maybe I didn't understand what you're trying to pin down well just to try to get a usually there's different levels of interpretation like that might be more of the absolute interpretation maybe but as a practical interpretation if that's it

[60:54]

if we're all able to do all good then it's all good then that's okay when we start getting into well you know I feel all these hands keep going up let's see you know the story of the bird nest Roshi you've probably heard that story I'll just tell it there was a Roshi who stayed up in a tree and decided he wasn't going to come down and he became kind of famous he'd be up there and this famous governor which it might have also been Su Tung Po the Chinese poet went to but he was also serving in a governmental position went to the foot of the tree and called up to bird nest Roshi called down looks pretty dangerous down there and then he said

[61:55]

what is your teaching and he said avoid all evil do all good and save the many beings and the governor said well any child of three knows that and he said yes any child of three knows that but a man of 80 it's kind of simple it's like you don't do mean things you do good things and you help everybody but it's very hard to do I think we should change it to that I think whatever just like David was saying I think you know that's the thing about the precepts

[62:56]

being in your own body somebody tells you from outside don't do such and such but you know that's the right thing to do it's not evil you know but we can also be confused and if there's clinging if there's self clinging see that's what I mean the three refuges come first which kind of protect you to try and do this to try and do these and then of course the ten prohibitory precepts are a fuller kind of explication of what that would be to not do evil to do good to save many beings well how would one do that it's all they're all together let's see who hasn't spoken yet how about Greg people seem to keep getting hung up on the thing that nothing should be stated

[63:57]

in a negative term and to me it seems like I vow to avoid evil and I vow to do good it's kind of like because of our relative human condition in our life sometimes we see it as avoiding evil and sometimes we see it as doing good and it's like those two together add up to sort of a catch all or if it's just that I can do all good I vow to do all good it almost seems like it doesn't always hit right on the mark when we're faced with this avoid evil and so I mean to me it seems like it's really necessary but we don't like the negative so we state it as there are the positive versions already there I vow to do all good I hear what you're saying they're very close the right conduct and the all good seem to be like just two ways of saying the same thing

[64:57]

I think the emphasis in that first one is on the actual doing and the thing about doing the rituals and ceremonies you know this other translation it gives it a kind of further it is something well Breck was saying that you can't do anything and I think as soon as you say I do something you already set up a dualistic event which is already based in delusion and suspect in some way but I don't know what to say I think to know all the different translations and to kind of get a feel for kind of what we're talking about is maybe the most helpful and then what is it that inspires you and that doesn't make you cringe and that you feel you can work with and take up

[66:02]

in a way that lives in your life I think maybe that's for each one of us where we can put our effort in terms of choosing one or the other translation for us I want to just share my experience with trying to practice this when I first read the precepts and they really spoke to me this is a wonderful way to live wonderful guidelines for living and then I tried to follow them and then with following the precepts allowed me to have the ability to sit in meditation so that's Samadhi and in sitting and following the precepts wisdom was revealed and so all all the time I was trying to be good and do good but suddenly seeing

[67:03]

with wisdom the result of harmful action then I couldn't do harm once I saw the real result of that so good didn't come as this overlay of trying to do good or be good it just came from seeing the way things really are and then that you can't do otherwise when you see the true results of harmful action you can't do otherwise and then of course it gets it can get deeper and deeper but just in the beginning it was like a real sort of coming down and concentration and then the wisdom and then just this circle this endless circle and what Jeanette is talking about which is out of her own life and also in the Buddhist teaching that can be summed up as Samadhi and Prajna Sheila S-I-L-A with a little accent over the S

[68:06]

Sheila as ethics or morality Samadhi as concentration and Prajna as wisdom so these three things it's like a wheel and some people come some people have an insight they're just walking along or whatever or through their own suffering they have an insight into impermanence or the harm that they've done they get it, you get it there's some insight or some wisdom and out of that you decide I don't want to live that way anymore I want to not do harm or not treat people that way and then or you decide that you want to sit let's say if you're a Buddhist practitioner and it's very hard to sit if you're not following the precepts I mean if you've been doing harm to others it's very hard to stay put, you know so the so the more you

[69:07]

stop harming others or do good and avoid evil the more you can sit and the more you sit the more insight you have into wisdom which feeds wanting to live a life that's the best of all possible lives and so it goes around like a circle and you can come in at any of the three places and one supports and deepens the other so and this Jeanette really found to be true yes well it seems to me just listening to Jeanette it seems like a lot or I would imagine that a lot of people who take up the precepts or really make this conscious conscious decision to take up the precepts and live that way comes from this place of pain of suffering of their lives and so then to put this structure

[70:09]

around their daily life by the precepts it sounded like for you it's like this guide that you just keep coming back to through all the difficulties it's just like the precepts are there even if you don't do all good and you cause some harm it's this thing it's like this base to just take you through the ups and downs so that's sort of how I interpret it more than having this concrete definition of evil good this is what you do this is what you don't do but more just to have this structure and having that yes well I I think the difference between rules

[71:13]

the kind of usual way we think of these as rules is just what you said it's a living thing that you have in your life to reflect on and bounce off of and that's there to support you and you become more and more and more intimate with it until there's no difference between that and your everyday life it becomes calibrated so it's like that so I think there is a mistaken kind of Ten Commandments type of rule thing that happens when we read them sometimes but the more you live them and practice them the less and less it's like that I think Matt I have a comment about the phrasing the use of the word evil which to me I found very helpful and important

[72:14]

because I've noticed it's easy for me to want to do all good and it's hard for me to face the fact that that there are possibilities in me to help cause tremendous suffering in myself and others and I think sometimes well I see the tendency in myself to try to shy away from that to not own up to that and I think that gets played out societally as well I think in Marin County it's pretty easy for me to see where I grew up and in the U.S. I see it we all like to think of ourselves as people who do good and don't like to face the fact that what we do often has tremendous negative consequences and so I see this tendency to want to put a positive spin on everything but I think that sometimes it's a little like Ajahn Amaro explained spray painting the world pink a little bit of a danger everybody wants to embrace and sustain but I

[73:17]

think it's harder to really look at suffering and in some ways that avoiding evil isn't about avoidance it's about facing suffering maybe it's avoiding evil in the sense of choosing not to do things that cause suffering but I think it's actually about turning towards that suffering and facing that suffering so I very much need both sides of the precepts when I hear the precepts stated prohibitively that there are two sides that not killing and encouraging life are both very much a part of that precept and you can't just choose I can't just choose the one Thank you I think you know there was a long conversation about this in the karma workshop we did with Reb about the people who do most harm in the world are often the ones who think

[74:18]

that they're doing good and very self-righteously doing good and anyway so just what you said about facing this that this is me this is a possibility of me that I do have this capacity then you that it's part of saving all beings because you you know your capacity and you're vigilant and careful and knowing that you do have the possibility that you could really hurt someone badly so if you don't think you can that's when you can really hurt people a lot so and the refraining from the word refrain it comes from the word

[75:19]

to a frenare I think it is like a bit in a horse's mouth where you pull back on the horse you know like rain you rain it in a little bit so it has some some idea of guiding or control that's just that's right that's not for me anyway to refrain is to pull back you know getting too out there so refraining from evil knowing that you actually have the possibility you could and raining yourself in then you become a treasure for everybody because you know what you can do let's see I want to look at the time is it about ten minutes yeah so let's see who hasn't spoken at all tonight that has their hand has had their hand up oh Cindy

[76:20]

I think it's probably a very simple question the difference between between taking and receiving yeah well it's so interesting how we use the word interchangeably you know it's like there are a number of words that do that like the word cleave you know to cleave to something is to hold on and to cut you know so the place at which you cut is the place where you hold you know and receiving and taking we use it interchangeably so I mean there's an active and a passive side I think to those so you may feel like you may feel more one or the other that you're actively taking these up or not exactly not passively in a negative way but or you're allowing them to just come in to fill you you know

[77:21]

so you might find I don't know exactly I think we call it the the initiation of what do we call the ceremony the I have one of these ceremonies here lay bodhisattva initiation ceremony receiving the three pure precepts receiving the ten great precepts but taking refuge so maybe you actively take refuge rather than receive we don't say receive refuge actually so you actively take refuge and then you receive these precepts because they're given to you in the ceremony so anyway I don't I use them interchangeably and I know other people do do as well on that point

[78:26]

I always thought of them as when I do take receive them as a kind of chronological thing I could think of taking them and then receiving them but I couldn't think of just receiving like they were coming like door you know UPS oh I've received them I have to I have to I mean to bow first I have to open the doors that's how I feel so you feel that the taking is a turning towards an active taking yes two sides of the coin something gave them to you what? I mean you wouldn't even know what the precepts were or what they meant or that they could be done unless someone someone gave them to you taught them to you and took the time to help you whether your parents

[79:26]

or your teacher someone didn't give them to you so you're saying unless you took them unless you actively took them if you just received them I mean if you think about the receiving receiving almost seems like someone's like when you receive a gift someone gives them to you so whenever I hear the word receiving I'm always thinking of someone that's taking the time to help you out with these and help you have them teach them to you maybe from your experience with them you kind of understand how it can really be done or what it feels like that's a great gift that's what I hear when I receive it that's a great gift yeah Ariel you had your hand up before I was just going to say again

[80:27]

our Ecosoft Club meeting that we had recently we were talking about to me it seemed like good and evil are kind of subject to interpretation because here we are trying to save the world from that end of things but then there are these other people like the loggers or all these other people that are trying to take care of their families and they're not necessarily evil and we can't come up with the attitude like they're evil, we're good yes so the most dangerous part of those kind of situations is the other breaking into self and other and the other almost by definition is enemy or bad so that's

[81:30]

in all the social activism that seems to be the most crucial difficulty is maintaining that mind that doesn't separate out that way yeah yes I just had something that I read in a talk by Rev. Anderson that I feel really it's kind of the approach that actually has become clearer to me just listening to everybody but he says that after you receive the precept you aren't any different than you were before but if you don't receive it you don't know that and I think that's very humbling that you know it's a humbling way to say that I could possibly violate

[82:31]

all these things and it's a constant reminder to me that I am who I am and and that's how I can engage in my everyday life I may kill today and I probably do but at least I can be aware of it then so I think that's really it was at least very profound to me anyway could you read it again after you receive the precept you aren't any different than you were before but if you don't receive it you don't know that and I think also that sometimes maybe I might even get caught up in receiving or taking the precept as some kind of empowerment which I think is not the case at all you know so okay it's

[83:32]

about one minute to nine so I want to thank you all for your wonderful efforts and discussion and wonderful things you all said I really appreciate it so next week I thought we could start with the first of the prohibitory precepts or grave precepts the disciple of the Buddha does not kill or I vow not to kill and I thought we have three more classes so I thought we'd do that I thought we'd just start from the top kill misuse of sexuality now we could of course stay with that for longer but did you bring those this is an article for the third

[84:34]

precept for the misuse of sexuality that's been circulated a little bit but people have found this helpful and I've found this helpful this is Thich Nhat Hanh on misusing commentary on the precept of not misusing sexuality so you can read that and just for the last class we'll talk about that one so for the practice period how was it to do the refuges here instead of going over was that okay did you miss doing the full vows no why is that so funny plus we're like with

[85:39]

other people we can share yes I think that's nice or anything like that okay so why don't we leave them on the front table and if you need one you can come up so we're going to recite the sutra of closing and dedicating it the merit of our efforts tonight and then we'll stand up and we'll do 3 standing vows towards the zendo and recite the refuges

[86:24]

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